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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 20 Dec 1995

Vol. 145 No. 17

Order of Business.

Before announcing the Order of Business, I welcome back our colleagues, Senator Magner and Senator Bohan, who have returned from the Russian elections. It is an indication of the growing interdependence of democracies that people from our Parliament were present to help ensure that democratic standards were maintained in the Russian elections. We should be very pleased that our colleagues made the sacrifice to do this work.

This is the last sitting day of the year and, on behalf of the House, I thank the staff of the House for their work during the past year. It has probably been the most difficult year, certainly of recent years, for the Seanad. We lost two of our most beloved Members during the past year, which was a major shock.

It has also been a year in which the Seanad has done a great deal of very good and useful work, and has been in the forefront of a number of major debates. I pay tribute to the staff of the House, the secretariat, the reporting staff and the press. Even if we do not always get the coverage we believe is our due, this is certainly not the fault of the people who cover this House on a regular basis; we are all very grateful for their accuracy and the fairness with which they cover events.

I also thank the ushers and those who make the working of this House possible. In particular, I thank the Opposition parties for the co-operation which has characterised everything they did during the year. We have had our difficulties and disagreements, as is natural in politics, nonetheless there has been a good spirit of co-operation and generosity for which I am extremely grateful. On behalf of the House, I wish all staff and Members a very happy Christmas and I look forward to seeing people back here early in the New Year.

I may have exhausted all the good wishes by the time I have finished detailing today's Order of Business which is items 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8. Item 1 will be taken without debate.

Will we have midnight mass here?

We will take Report and Final Stages of item 2 which should not take too long because there is a wide measure of agreement. Item 3 is a small technical measure of which we will take all stages. There will be a sos then until 2 p.m. at which time we will take the Appropriation Bill. In accordance with established practice there will be one speaker per group with 20 minutes each. The Appropriation Bill must pass all stages today and there will be a debate on the Bill very early in the next session. I will try to organise it to coincide with the budget in the other House so there is a twin-track approach to financial and budgetary matters in the next session.

Item 5 is a motion for earlier signature. We will take the Committee and Final Stages of item 6 which could take some time. Item 7 is the Committee and Final Stages of the Energy (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill which should not take too long and item 8 is a motion for earlier signature. If the morning's business has not finished, I have made provision for it to slot in at the end.

I will not repeat the Leader's remarks as he spoke on behalf of the House when he thanked all those mentioned. With regard to the goodwill he accepted from this side of the House, as I said in private last night the House will know when the chief whip and the leader of Fianna Fáil come in different doors next year that we are all on a different footing.

The Minister for the Marine is at a meeting on EU fishery policy. Will the Leader ensure that the Minister is aware of the support he has from the Seanad for his efforts to secure the very best deal for the fishing industry and those involved in it? I will not go over last week's debate. We realise the importance of those discussions and I ask that the Leader let the Minister, Deputy Barrett, know that we want him to secure the best deal and to resist, if at all possible, some of the proposals which will be to the detriment of the industry and lead to job losses.

I join the thanks to you, a Chathaoirligh, the staff and everybody else. I wish all Members a happy Christmas. I do not have any particular problem with the Order of Business. There is an amount of material on it and it might be suggested that we have taken on too much. It is regrettable that it has come so late. Nevertheless, much of it is of a routine nature and will not take very long. In the spirit of Christmas, we will accept the Order of Business as proposed.

Unfortunately, yesterday I felt it necessary to condemn a shooting in Belfast and there has been another within 24 hours. It is important to condemn these shootings. We thought we would never again have to do so in the House but for the second time in 24 hours I feel forced to comment on the matter.

On behalf of the Labour Party group, I thank the staff of the House, the reporting staff, the press, the ushers and others. I wish everybody a happy Christmas.

I join Senator Dardis in condemning the atrocities in the North of Ireland over the last two days. As said on the radio this morning, it leaves ten children without a father and it is alarming to see this trend again. If anybody can influence the situation and the people involved they should do whatever they can to halt this alarming spiral of violence in the North.

In the spirit of Christmas, I congratulate the Labour and Democratic Left Ministers on all the goodies they got from Santa Claus in their Christmas stockings for Christmas and the New Year. I especially congratulate the Minister for Social Welfare, Deputy De Rossa, for the toy soldiers he got for his own private army which will enable him to fight all the battles he needs with the Government over the next 12 months.

If they supported the Senator's Government, he would not throw them out either.

I should point out to Senator O'Kennedy that I was calling him on the Order of Business.

I commiserate with the Fine Gael Ministers — the little boys that Santa Claus forgot — for having to pay the price for Santa's generosity.

The Senator's party was happy with its temporary little arrangement.

Does the Senator have a question for the Leader of the House?

No, I just wanted to offer my Christmas congratulations.

The Senator stopped believing in Santa Claus last year.

On behalf of the Independents, I thank the staff of the House and other Members for all their help during the year and wish them a very happy Christmas. The Independent Senators probably give the staff of the House more trouble than anyone else because we act as five individual parties. We owe them a great debt of gratitude for all they did for us during the year.

When Senator O'Kennedy mentioned Christmas goodies, he reminded me of the many children who are disappointed at the decision of the manufacturers' of Rolo to reduce the number of sweets in a packet from 11 to ten. What does the Leader intend to do about the missing Rolo?

Will the Leader arrange a debate with the Minister for Health soon after Christmas? I note that Senator O'Sullivan has asked for a debate on the Adjournment. I want to give the reasons for my request briefly and without making a speech. In the general hospital in Letterkenny there are 2,400 people on waiting lists for orthopaedic treatment which, the orthopaedic surgeon indicates, will take six years to clear. Apparently the Minister for Finance did not know this when he criticised a former Taoiseach on Brian Farrell's television programme on Sunday evening and said that Charles Haughey forgot about the number of people on health waiting lists.

The general hospital in Letterkenny has 2,400 people on a six year waiting list for orthopaedic treatment. I am sure the House will support my request for a debate on the current situation because the Minister for Finance said we are paying up front.

We are not debating the issue now. I take it that the Senator is looking for a debate.

I ask for a debate on the health services early in the New Year. They are not being provided despite an undertaking that funding is provided for all expenditure. There are many services——

We are not discussing the issue today.

Will the Leader of the House arrange an early debate and bring in the Minister for Health?

I also ask the Leader of the House to send a strong signal to the Minister for the Marine indicating that to neglect the fisheries in Donegal and give 25 per cent over and above their share of the mackerel quota to the Norwegians will spell trouble. I am not indicating the nature of that trouble but I know the attitude of the fishermen.

A question to the Leader of the House.

It is imperative that the Leader of the House arranges a debate with the Minister for the Marine to get the feeling of fishermen who believe their business is being taken away.

We are not discussing the matter today.

They are not satisfied the Minister for the Marine is making their case.

Senator O'Kennedy's remarks might have much more credibility if he had made the same speech when Deputy Tony Gregory not only got all the presents but ran away with the reindeers and sleigh too. I do not remember the Senator opening his mouth on that occasion.

It was not Fianna Fáil policy at the time.

Regarding the kind remarks of the Leader about the monitoring of the elections in Russia, we did not teach the Russians anything. Perhaps the Leader could arrange a debate in the new year because I found they were far more democratic in relation to the franchise than is the case in Ireland. One of the polling stations I monitored was in the foyer of a large general hospital. There was a fixed station and a mobile box and there was a 90 per cent vote.

Was it for people on waiting lists?

It is a serious point. There could be up to 900 people in a large Irish regional hospital.

Introduce legislation.

One should not lose one's franchise because one is in hospital having one's appendix removed. There is ongoing discussion about votes for emigrants and in the spirit of Christmas, as Senator O'Kennedy mentioned, this matter should be considered in the new year.

Did they have the same system of proportional representation?

We got the vote up.

I support my colleagues, Senators Wright and McGowan, regarding the negotiations on fish quotas. Will the Leader convey to the Minister the impact the proposed cuts will have on fishermen's incomes and people employed in the fish processing business? If the proposed cuts go ahead, fishermen will suffer severe losses of income but it will also mean the loss of permanent jobs in the fish processing business. This could have a devastating impact on the entire fishing industry.

The Leader is aware that the House of Commons last night rejected a motion on the common fisheries policy. However, the UK fishermen will be less seriously affected than Irish fishermen if the cuts proceed. In view of the fact that the Spanish——

We are not discussing the issue now. A question to the Leader, Senator.

In addition to cutbacks and quotas in the fisheries sector generally, the Leader is aware that from 1 January there is the further threat of the Spanish armada entering the Irish conservation box off the south west coast. This will cripple the fishing industry. People fear their constitutional right——

We are not discussing the matter. A question to the Leader on today's Order of Business.

I ask the Leader to stress to the Minister the urgency of securing a satisfactory deal from Ireland's point of view and to request him to examine whether an arrangement can be made for some renegotiation of the common fisheries policy.

Given the ongoing problem in Irish Steel, will the Leader arrange a discussion early in the new year regarding the veto exercised by another nation on this issue? It is a serious matter and I ask the Leader to provide time for a debate.

Following the comments yesterday of our distinguished colleague, Senator Ross, on the issue of corporate boxes, an informal ad hoc committee including Members from all sides met in the early hours of this morning. The group suggests that the Cathaoirleach might wish to purchase a box in Croke Park for Senators.

Hear, hear.

It is a good idea.

I have the distinct impression, Senator Mooney, that it is not a matter for the Order of Business. A question to the Leader of the House on today's Order of Business.

The Cathaoirleach is as perceptive as usual. The group concluded that, following the Cathaoirleach's likely inability to purchase such a box, an all party approach could be made to Senator Ross to examine whether we could lease, hire or rent one of the Sunday Independent boxes in Croke Park.

A question to the Leader on today's Order of Business.

My question relates to the Green Paper on broadcasting. Concern has been expressed in certain quarters about statements made by the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht recently that he does not intend to issue a White Paper following widespread consultations. As the Leader is aware, in recent months practically the world and his wife have sent submissions to the Minister about broadcasting.

In addition, on the eve of Christmas, the Independent Radio and Television Commission has five applications within its grasp for a national radio licence and there is also the ongoing discussion on the establishment of TV3. All these matters will reach a conclusion before the end of next year. In that context, I ask the Leader to make time available as early as possible in the new year to discuss the implications for broadcasting in Ireland in light of the stated views of the Minister that there will not be a further opportunity——

Thank you, Senator.

If the reports are true that there will not be a consultative White Paper on broadcasting, as the Minister promised initially, the public will not have a further opportunity to discuss the Minister's proposals in relation to future of broadcasting.

We are not discussing the matter today.

I ask the Leader to consider a debate on accountancy bodies. As he is aware, the Institute of Chartered Accountants is the regulatory and disciplinary body with regard to accountants. The existing practice is that many people who are not qualified accountants are putting themselves forward as accountants. Some are doing a good job but others are not.

At present, there is no statutory control in this area and I ask the Leader to arrange a debate on this matter at an early date. The House could discuss it and formulate views which could be forwarded to the relevant Minister. The debate could also cover the controls and regulations on bodies relating to solicitors, dentists and doctors, etc. The Institute of Chartered Accountants is anxious that such controls should be established.

Thank you, Senator.

As the Cathaoirleach is aware, people interested in wildlife are concerned that many species of birds are facing extinction.

That is not what one said last night.

The Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht intends to introduce a Bill to amend the Wildlife Act. I am anxious this Bill is introduced in the Seanad. If the matter is left indefinitely, a number of birds and animals may become extinct.

I am sure the Leader will bring the Senator's concern to the Minister's attention.

The matter is important and it should be debated at an early date.

The Senator's goose is cooked.

Will the Leader make time available early in the new year for a debate on European Monetary Union? The Leader is aware of the uncertainty as to whether Ireland will participate in the European Monetary Union if the UK does not participate. It is important the House holds a general debate on the European Monetary Union, given the uncertainty which surrounds it and the question as to whether the UK views itself as a full and committed member of the EU. This is particularly relevant given last night's vote in the House of Commons and the possible UK veto on aid for Irish Steel. I ask the Leader to arrange a full debate on the European Monetary Union early in the new year.

Will the Leader arrange a debate in the new year on children? Christmas is a time for children and families with children are most often those in poverty. Ireland does not have a great charter of rights for children and a debate on all aspects relating to children is required as soon as possible.

It is only natural I would support Senator Mooney's request. Senator Doyle referred to the missing Rolo. What about the money the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry, Deputy Yates, left behind in Brussels yesterday? The sheep farmers are disappointed. I was surprised to hear he thought the result was better than expected. What did he look for? The sheep farmers thought he would bring back much more.

I read in the paper that cattle farmers are also disappointed. Their income only amounts to about £4,000 a year. With all these crises in agriculture——

That was last year's paper.

——there are good reasons I am looking for a debate on agriculture. The Leader has promised that we will have a debate on agriculture and I remind him of that.

Before I call the Leader to reply I wish the members and staff a happy Christmas. I thank everybody for their co-operation during the year.

I will pass on Senator Wright's, Senator Daly's and Senator McGowan's comments on fisheries to the Minister for the Marine. He knows he has the support of the House in trying to get the best deal possible.

I agree with Senator Dardis it is a great tragedy to again have to condemn a brutal senseless killing yesterday in Belfast. We can only express our sympathy to the family and our total sense of revulsion at what has happened.

Senator O'Kennedy mentioned Santa Claus——

Santa Quinn.

Senator Enright answered well in saying that after the events of last year Fianna Fáil's belief in Santa Claus may be a little shaky. I cannot answer Senator Doyle's question. Senator McGowan asked for a health debate. The matter he raised would really be appropriate for an Adjournment Matter and he could raise it in that way in the next session. I am conscious that there is a promise for a debate on health and that will be honoured.

I am sure the House will be interested to hear from Senator Magner and Senator Bohan on all aspects of their Russian visit.

Senator Cregan referred to Irish Steel. It is important that the support of all in the House is with the Minister for Enterprise and Employment at the emergency meeting of the Council of Ministers in Brussels. It would be a retrograde step for Anglo Irish relations if the British Government maintained its obdurate attitude on this matter.

Senator Mooney raised two issues. The first is a matter for bilateral discussions between himself and Senator Seán De Rossa. On the second, I promised yesterday there would be a debate on broadcasting early in the new session. In a wide ranging contribution Senator Enright asked for a discussion on the self regulating agencies.

The Senator wants to have accountants appointed to the High Court.

The wildlife Bill is a matter of urgency for the Government and I will seek to have it introduced in this House where the Senator's well known interest in wildlife will find full expression.

Senator Mulcahy raised the question of a debate on European Monetary Union. There will be a full economic debate in the next session and there will be discussions on different aspects of European integration. Senator Kelly asked for a debate on children. If she could frame the debate more specifically we could arrange something. Senator Rory Kiely should not believe everything he reads in the newspapers. There will be a debate on agriculture early in the next session.

Order of Business agreed to.
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