Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 8 May 1996

Vol. 147 No. 4

National Archives: Motion.

Mr. Manning

I move:

That Seanad Éireann, in noting reports 1 to 4 of the National Archives Advisory Council, commends the Council and staff of the National Archives on the enormous progress made since the establishment of the National Archives, requests an update on the response of Government Departments to the requirement under legislation that specified material be transferred to the Archives and urges the adoption by all local and statutory authorities of procedures designed to protect valuable archival material in their care.

I welcome the opportunity to discuss this important cultural and historic matter. It is, almost to the day, the tenth anniversary of the enacting of the National Archives Act, 1986. This was a Seanad Bill and, by any measurement, an extremely important piece of legislation. It was long overdue and urgently needed. The situation it set out to redress was one of scandalous neglect, official indifference and State parsimony. That Act came into operation in 1988 and this debate gives us an opportunity to see how it has worked in practice, to review its effectiveness and to make suggestions for future developments.

The National Archives as established in 1988 was not, of course, wholly new. The constituent parts of the National Archive, the State Paper Office and the Public Records Office, dated back to the beginning of the 18th century. The State Paper Office, which had existed since 1702, was housed in the Record Tower in Dublin Castle. Since the beginning of the 19th century it contained the records of the Chief Secretary's Office — in other words, the central government administration in Ireland. Following the establishment of the Public Records Office in 1867, records older than 50 years were due to be transferred to it from the State Paper Office on an incremental basis. By one of the ironies of fate, many of the records as far back as 1790 remained in the State Paper Office and so escaped the appalling destruction which occurred when the Public Records Office was burned to the ground during the Civil War. The civil servants of that day were up to 80 years behind schedule and we should all be grateful for that fact.

The story of archives in the first 50 years of the life of this State was a pathetic one. Those charged were starved of resources and had no statutory responsibility for the bulk of records created by Departments and agencies. That, in effect, was the situation when the National Archives Act was passed in 1986 and enormous progress has been made in the years since then. I will now indicate some of the progress made.

First, there was the establishment in 1987 of the National Archives Advisory Council. That council was chaired first by the late Judge Niall McCarthy, who led it with great dedication and foresight; it is now chaired by Judge Hugh O'Flaherty. Its job is to advise on all matters affecting archives and their use for the public. It has been an excellent body of its kind, well informed, skilled, public spirited, acting both as adviser and watchdog in the public interest.

Second, since 1987 the National Archives have their own dedicated premises at Bishop Street in Dublin. This too represents an enormous advance on what existed heretofore when the records were strewn around various locations, including Arnotts' old factory in Dominick Street, Dublin Castle and elsewhere. I will, however, be coming back later to the deficiencies in the Bishop Street premises, but at least it represents a significant advance over what existed heretofore.

The third great advance since 1987 is the great increase in public awareness of the essential value of archives in the life of any state, especially a state which places so much emphasis on its history. The increasing use being made of archive material, which is growing annually, is of enormous importance. History is at the very core of any state's being — history properly written, properly researched, history as an attempt to understand and explain, rather than history as propaganda. History is also multi-faceted. One of the great advantages of our archives is that whole areas of history are now open to serious professional study, in many cases for the first time. Indeed, even in tourist terms the availability of the archives has enormous drawing power for historians and scholars and also for people of Irish extraction who want to trace their roots. In addition, each 1 January brings the releasing of the 30 year papers when historians can see the reasons behind many of the decisions taken in our recent past; the 1960s tend to be more recent as time goes by.

There are a number of aspects to which it is important at this point to draw attention and I will do so as quickly as I can. On the question of staffing, the staff of the National Archives are among the most professional I have encountered in my experience in a number of different countries, and certainly the most helpful I have ever encountered. It includes the director, Dr. David Craig, Mr. Ken Hannigan, the assistant director and staff like Miss Catriona Crowe, who came to prominence recently when the Department of Foreign Affairs files on adoption were opened. These people provide not only an enormous degree of skill and professionalism but give to the National Archives a sense of helpfulness and friendliness, especially for those who are not familiar with its workings. There is a distinctive and helpful personality about the way in which the archive is run.

The National Archives is seriously understaffed. The second report pointed out that over the previous ten years the workload of the archive have massively increased and that the critically important work of making archives available would be greatly impaired unless there was a significant increase in the number of staff. The fourth report states that in 1994, the archive had a total staff of only 35; the Scottish Public Record Office had a staff of 130 and the Public Record Office in Northern Ireland had a staff of 94, three times the size of our staff. Clearly, this is a matter of urgency.

On the question of premises, the National Archives still occupies only part of the site in Bishop Street; it was intended it should occupy the complete building on a phased basis. One of the attractions of that site lay in its potential for development as a purpose built archival storage area in the area currently occupied by a warehouse. This would allow for the centralisation of records on one site, adjacent to the reading room, in conditions which would meet international standards and would facilitate access. However, the warehouse is still occupied by the Government Supplies Agency. Large quantities of records in the custody of the National Archives are still stored in the former Public Records Office of the Four Courts. They must be brought across the city to Bishop Street when they are needed in the reading room.

At present, the National Archives has no space for any further large scale transfer of records from Departments or agencies. The fact that the archive does not have complete control of its own building but must share it with sections of two other Government agencies — the Government Supplies Agency and the Land Commission — has worrying implications for the safety and security of the archives housed there. One of the main priorities for the National Archives is to gain full control of its own building. In addition, it has no space for exhibitions based on the records it holds, nor has it any suitably equipped lecture rooms. Space which was earmarked for these purposes are still occupied by the Land Commission.

The fourth report of the council on archives makes it clear that the transfer of the pre-1961 records still held by the Department of Education and the Department of Finance is dependent on floor one of Bishop Street being made available to the archive and that the transfer of the much larger quantity of pre-1961 records still held by the 61 bodies named in the Schedule of that Act have not been transferred because of the absence of space.

I would now like to turn to the question of conservation and preservation. The National Archives has no facility for conservation or repair of documents. It is alone among the archives of Europe in this respect. It cannot itself repair damaged documents. The range of conservation treatment required to ensure preservation of archives in the custody of the National Archives is simply not available. Adaptation of the building in Bishop Street has not been completed to internationally accepted standards for archive buildings. There is, for instance, no environmental control or air conditioning anywhere in the building and the temperature and humidity can fluctuate alarmingly in parts of the storage area.

The National Archives has no microfilming unit. It cannot, therefore, undertake security filming of documents. Put simply, there are few or no backup copies of most of the more important archives. Apart from the need for security in case of accident, documents which are frequently handled need to be copied otherwise they will wear away.

There is also the question of electronic records and computerisation — some of my colleagues will talk about this in greater detail. More and more the records created by Departments and agencies are being generated by computer. At present, the National Archives has not the resources or the expertise to offer advice on how these records may be preserved and does not have the facilities to preserve such records itself. Action must be taken now and not in 30 years time if these records are to survive for use by future generations.

Because of time pressures, I will not dwell too long on the question of the National Archives' own computerisation and the deficiencies in its IT services. The archive which is expected to advise Departments in these matters is not itself equipped to handle its own resources properly in this respect.

I would now like to look briefly at the transfer and appraisal of records. The National Archives Act provides for the transfer of departmental records to the National Archives when they are 30 years old and that they may be made available for public inspection. When the Act came into operation in 1988 most Departments still held records dating back to 1922 and some of the other bodies covered by the Act had records dating back to the early 19th century.

In its third report the council noted that by the end of December 1993 all but two of the 16 Departments had completed the transfer of pre-1961 records but that the Departments of Education and Finance had failed to meet the deadlines given to them. The fourth report indicated that the Department of Finance, in particular, had made considerable progress in preparing the remainder of its early records but that the transfer in the case of both Departments has been hindered due to the absence of adequate space.

The third report states that in implementing the Act the initial priority was to ensure the transfer of pre-1961 records by the Departments. Consequently, little progress had been made with regard to the records of the courts and the 61 bodies, other than the Departments, listed in the Schedule to the Act. The third report went on to say that five of the scheduled bodies merited particular attention. They are: the Registry of Deeds, the Valuation Office, the Ordnance Survey, the Land Registry and the Land Commission. Taken together, they make up one of the most comprehensive bodies of archives relating to the land and the people living on the land available anywhere in Europe; but, as yet, these have not even begun to be touched.

The motion also refers to local authority archives and, like the great Tip O'Neill, I think there is good reason for saying that all history is local. Certainly, one of the better aspects of the Local Government Act, 1994, was that it set out the obligation of local authorities to create an archive service. That particular provision was far-sighted and generous in that it confers a public right of inspection of archives. Some progress has been made towards making this a reality, but my understanding is that the progress has been uneven and the resources available have not been equal to the enormous task. I do not underestimate the amount of work which must be done and it cannot clearly be at the top of the priority list of most local authorities, but it is reassuring to know that many of them realise the intrinsic importance of their archives and of what they are being asked to do.

I know also that the Federation of Local History Societies, which represents 110 local history societies, has expressed a keen interest in this project and has offered any help its members can give. One of the great things about our country at present is the proliferation and the vibrancy of so many local history societies, and the fact that they are prepared to put their services and goodwill at the disposal of local authorities in this work is an offer which should not be overlooked. Professional archivists may be somewhat sceptical about the prospect of amateurs helping them in this particular work but the volume of work is so enormous that any properly supervised help would be welcome. Perfection can come later. It is important that this work begin and that what emerges is user friendly.

Finally, I want to refer to what I regard as the archival scandal which exists in Leinster House and I draw attention to the report published over two years ago on the state of the library services. One section of that report said that the committee noted with serious concern the condition of some of the material currently stored in the basement of Leinster House. Much of this material was transferred to Leinster House from the library of the Chief Secretary in Dublin Castle on the foundation of the State and other material was added in the 1920s. It is impossible to get a clear picture of the extent and value of the material at present but it is likely that some of it is of considerable historical value. At the very least, the collection needs to be cleaned, bound, properly shelved and organised before its future is finally decided. The committee is adamant that the present situation must not be allowed to continue; and should any permanent damage befall this collection, the Oireachtas will have failed in its responsibility to protect its material as a trustee for the nation.

In having the opportunity to review briefly the achievements and deficiencies in the operation of the National Archives Act, 1986, in this evening's debate, which I know is of interest to some Members, it is important that we examine our own record also. It is a scandal and a shame that nothing has happened since that report was published two years ago. As far as I know, the condition of the material is just two years worse than it was then.

Mr. Dardis

We are not the only ones who are decomposing.

Mr. Cotter

I second the motion. To be quite honest, I did not know much about the National Archives until I saw the motion on the clár and I do not know much about it yet. However, I have been enriched by the little research I have done and by listening to my Leader, Senator Manning, in his expose for the past few minutes. He has drawn attention to some deficiencies which exist in our record keeping and in the space available for the archives. These must be rectified. When one considers that if there were no records available of the activities of the current year, people would know little about this year and would have no way of finding out about it. We sometimes hear about historical revisionism and that when history is written close to events while emotion still exist, it is quite possible it might not be all that accurate. There-fore, at some time in the future, and continually, someone must examine history in the light of factual information with regard to the times in which it was written when emotive feelings may have taken over. In order to do that one must have access to the archives, that is, the factual information. I suppose one could say that the archives measure the movement and moods of society as it evolves. If one had time one could spend it in the archives' reading room, which is what historians do, tracing the various moods of modern Ireland from 1922 onwards with relative accuracy. I would say that one would see the conservatism which existed in the early days, where setting up the State and getting the wheels rolling were important, and the evolution a few years later with the setting up of the power stations etc. I am sure that is all well documented. One can probably also see the mood of the Irish people up to 1958, when there was a conservative approach to economic development and protection was the order of the day. How T.K. Whitaker began to inform thinking and spawn ideas which led to the development of modern Ireland about 1963 or 1964 is, I am sure, well documented too. There-fore, when somebody in the future tries to revise the history of the period 1960-90, it can be checked out carefully through the National Archives; and that will be done. Revisionism must continue, but it could not occur without the National Archives.

Much material was burned in the 1922 fire and it was a great loss to all of us, since it was a great source of history. I am sure historians and social researchers would value it enormously in trying to piece together our history as far back almost as the Middle Ages.

If one wants a comprehensive picture of Ireland, the National Archives and our museums will provide it. The wonderful rich cultural life at present will obviously be evident in the record of the future. That record touches the lives of almost everybody at some stage. In the National Archives there are detailed departmental records, including social welfare records, records of the courts, probate, etc. I think local records are kept there too. At some stage they receive local records from local authority offices and from other public service organisations. There is a comprehensive body of records available to anybody who wants to piece together the way things were and the way things happened.

I support fully this motion and I particularly agree with the Leader that the records are often still not complete. The records are kept in various places and cannot be brought under the control of the records office until such time as they are housed in one building. It would be a shame if we were to allow a situation to develop where they were at risk and one of the proper authorities did not have full control over them. I agree fully with him that this must be addressed.

The Leader also drew attention to the fact that record keeping has changed enormously. Things are thrown on disk in the same way as we used to scribble notes when we were children. There are disks all over the place carrying valuable information. A way must be found to store that information because records will not be complete. I endorse fully what the Leader has said. The council must be able to respond to the keeping of records of that nature.

I am very happy to support the motion put down by the Leader and my colleagues. I hope that the necessary reviews will be carried out and put into practice.

Mr. Mooney

I compliment the Leader of the House and the Government for initiating this debate. However, that is the only compliment I can pay to the Government. I had intended extracting relevant information from the four reports dating back to 1990 and putting my own words on it, but I will allow the National Archives Advisory Council to do it for me because they do it much better.

Section 10 of the fourth report of National Archives Advisory Council, December 1994, reads:

The National Archives remains very seriously understaffed. There is a strong perception on the part of the Council that the important cultural and administrative work of the National Archives is not sufficiently appreciated by Government. At even the most mundane level, the National Archives has relieved Government Departments of much work in the storing and filing of documents. A submission to the Minister requesting four additional permanent professional posts and a new post as assistant to the Director was however rejected in March 1994 on the grounds that staffing levels in the National Archives were originally set to take into account any future needs.

Perhaps the Minister, in his reply, might update me on that statement relating to staffing as of March 1994.

A statement in one of the reports caught my eye and I felt it was of particular relevance in the context of the contributions this evening. It compared "the richness of the holdings of the National Archives" with "the poverty of the resources accorded to it". Senator Manning referred to the appalling condition of certain archives contained in this House. I know that the way in which the motion is framed is an attempt to congratulate the Government for yet another job well done. However, I am sorry to say this is not a job that is even half well done.

Mr. Manning

That was not the intention at all. If the Senator reads the motion he will see it was not the intention.

Mr. Mooney

The motion congratulates and welcomes the Government's initiatives in these areas.

Mr. Manning

It does not.

Mr. Mooney

I could not help but make comparisons with the high profile activities of the Minister responsible. I thought I would have an opportunity to welcome him back from Hollywood, but he obviously is still out there.

Mr. Manning

On a point of information, the motion notes the report. It does not welcome anything.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Manning will have an opportunity to clarify that when he is concluding.

Mr. Manning

I am sorry.

Mr. Mooney

Has the Senator anything further he wishes to add? Am I upsetting him?

Mr. Manning

No.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Mooney, on the motion.

Mr. Mooney

Section 11 of the report refers to a strategic plan which the council hopes will lead to a coherent development of the National Archives to the year 2000. The report goes on to discuss items which were listed in the third report and includes a progress evaluation of these key areas. The third report stated that the National Archives staffing level was extremely low. The 1994 report states:

The staff of the National Archives has remained at a total of 35. This compares with the Scottish Record Office total of 130, and, in Belfast, the Public Record Office of Northern Ireland has a total of 94.

The second item on the list was that the National Archives faced a serious shortage of space for the storage of archives. The up to date position according to the 1994 report is:

This has become critical. Certain collections cannot be accessioned due to lack of space, while it has been necessary to withdraw the collections from public availability. The records of the General Prisons Board, for example, for which there is considerable demand, have been withdrawn, and are now housed on racking in the warehouse.

The third item listed in the third report was that the National Archives did not meet minimum international standards of temperature and humidity in storage areas. The report of 1994 states that a report from the Office of Public Works on environmental problems in the front block at Bishop Street was requested in January 1994 and is still awaited. The Minister might comment as to whether that position has changed since the fourth report. The fourth item was that the National Archives had no integrated computerised finding aids and retrieval systems. In other words, anybody who wants to retrieve information from a database, as one would in any modern institution, cannot because the National Archives does not have integrated computerised finding aids and retrieval systems.

When the third report was published the National Archives had no conservation facility and, according to this report, there is no change. The third report mentioned that the National Archives had no exhibition space. The updated position is:

The Council discussed this matter throughout the year. It was felt that exhibitions on the Famine and the bicentenary of the 1798 rebellion would be valuable both in education terms and in raising the general profile of the National Archives.

It was not, however, possible to advance plans for such an exhibition because the designated space is already occupied.

The National Archives has no significant record of publication. It provides no record management service to Government and it has no facilities for preserving or making available to researchers records in electronic form. In other words, if one wants a photocopy of any archives one will not get it.

Senator Manning made a reference to the imaginative section in the Local Government Act, 1991, which relates to the preservation of local history records at local council level. When we debated that section I welcomed it as innovative. I believed it would put an obligation, as Senator Manning correctly reminded us earlier, on local authorities to provide facilities for historical archival facilities in order to preserve county archives in one place.

I do not have the up to date position — perhaps the Minister has — but I would be curious to know how many local authorities have provided the facilities, as outlined in that section, since the Bill was introduced in 1991. We would all like to have it. Shortly after the legislation was passed I put a motion before my own council requesting that they set up such an institution. The answer then and repeatedly through the years has been there is no money, no resources, no staffing and no possibility of it ever happening. This is yet another example of Government — not just this Government but any Government — introducing noble pious aspirations and expecting cash strapped, under-resourced local authorities to provide the facilities.

If we are serious at national level about many of the sentiments expressed by Senator Manning — and I fully endorse everything he said in that regard and the encouraging noises he made in relation to local historical groups — we must provide the necessary resources for local authorities. Otherwise, it will not happen because local authority members will admit that this is a very low priority in their estimates, as is the case with libraries. Even with the best will in the world, they find themselves having to rob Peter to pay Paul and the areas of heritage, libraries and archives usually suffer.

I am sorry Senator Manning took umbrage at my remarks because this is an opportunity to highlight reality. I have four reports here which point to a sorry state of neglect by successive Governments. If we did nothing else but use this debate to highlight the most recent report which singled out specific priorities and if the Minister took action on some of them, it would be a job well done.

Ms O'Sullivan

The intention of the Fine Gael group in raising this issue tonight is not particularly to congratulate any Government on its achievements in this regard but to point out the inadequacies of the current situation and to note, as Senator Mooney did, the aspects of the reports over the last four years which indicate that many archival areas need to be addressed, both nationally and at local level. It is important to have this debate in order to examine the issues.

In many ways, we have been better at preserving objects in the National Museum and the National Library than at preserving written records. We have dealt with the preservation of our language and music in a more systematic way than the archives. Despite the existence of the National Archives Act and the premises for the National Archives set up under that Act, there are shortcomings which mainly relate to staffing and methods of storing and accessing archives.

I spoke to postgraduate researchers and local historians about the problems in this area. They seem to have great difficulty finding the material they require. Local history is particularly important and I welcome the setting up of a local archive steering group under the Local Government Act, 1994. Some progress has been made. The workload of the archivist in Limerick has developed rapidly in recent years. Tourists trying to trace their ancestors have created a heavy workload for local archivists, which is welcome because it demonstrates the interest of people tracing their roots.

Some interesting issues arise in relation to the archives and how information storage has changed. The archival material was primarily on paper until relatively recently but most of what is being produced now is stored electronically. There have been huge developments in technology and computers in recent years. However, problems arise from that because the method by which the information was originally gathered might be outdated in terms of being accessed via modern technology. Much of the information being gathered by Departments is not stored in central records in the Department but in various computers in different sections of the Department and problems arise in relation to how this information is stored for the future.

It has been suggested we need to address that issue now rather than in 30 years time. We need to devise methods to preserve and store this information so that it can be accessed in the future. That would prevent major headaches for future archivists. It is an interesting question which has been dealt with in more detail in other countries, such as the United States, where they are trying to preserve huge numbers of records which are stored on floppy disks and other computer facilities.

There are issues which relate to various Departments. Senator Manning referred to the Department of Education and the Department of Finance as being particularly slow in transferring their archival material to the National Archives. Interest was shown recently in the information held by the Department of Education which related to the debate on Goldenbridge, industrial schools and children who were sent to America for adoption and the Minister for Education announced on 11 April she has appointed an archivist for the purpose of clarifying the relevant data available in her Department, in which there is such public interest at the moment. She intends to make public whatever information is available.

However, it is not enough to investigate archival material when it becomes topical. The Adoptive Parents' Association has been lobbying for some time for a central data basis. For example, if medical problems arise with an adopted child they would like to check the child's medical history. The more obvious example is adopted children who want to trace their natural parents. There are many other areas on which attention has not been focused.

The tension between the right to information and the right to privacy must be considered. Freedom of information legislation is under discussion at the moment but people also have a right to privacy. This issue will have to be addressed. In some ways, the Data Protection Act and the freedom of information issue are in conflict. There is a need to preserve information but we can have statistics without having to break confidentiality.

I do not want to go over the ground covered by other speakers. There is a growing public interest in archives among professional and amateur historians and the wider public. This is an opportunity for us to air this issue. However, it needs to be aired regularly and these reports must be followed through.

Mr. Dardis

This matter is not top of the pops but it is important, nonetheless. I congratulate Senator Manning for bringing it to the public's attention because it is something we should discuss and think about. I am an enthusiastic defender of the need for a National Archive. I note that Senator O'Sullivan appears to be also, so I hope she will now convince the Minister for Education of the need to have history as part of the curriculum.

Ms O'Sullivan

She is not taking it out of the curriculum.

Mr. Dardis

History informs much of what we do and it is important not to forget it. Whatever one's perspective on history is, it is part of what we are and that is why a National Archive is important. The question of a National Archive has not featured in any of the Government's priorities, but it would be invidious to single out any Government for that. Historic papers have been mouldering there for decades but no single Government has been more active than others in seeking to preserve them.

Given that in the recent past we discussed the National Monuments Bill and the Heritage Council Bill, there is a need to revise legislation concerning the National Archives. The rules governing when papers can be opened to the public strike me as curious. It may have been logical to impose a 50 year rule in certain circumstances, but such restrictions now appear like a relic of the British administration. It is out of date in that the pace of modern technology and society in general is changing so rapidly that it is not necessary to have papers removed from access to the public for such long periods.

I wish to deal in detail with the question of local and statutory authorities adopting "procedures designed to protect valuable archival material in their care", as the motion states. In common with Senator Mooney, I tabled a motion at Kildare County Council last year requesting the council to establish and maintain an archive. I did that because the county council buildings are the subject of major refurbishment at the moment. With so much building work going on, I was concerned that many old documents might be lost. Documents in local authority archives are the most important single source of the social, political and cultural history of a county. For that reason they need to be preserved.

The standard answer from Kildare County Council was that they would like to do it but they did not have the resources. The county librarian was given the task of being responsible for the archive. It was suggested that it might be located in the county library's headquarters, but beyond a general commitment we did not get much further. It came down to a lack of staff and resources; and while there was a genuine commitment, there was concern as to how it might be achieved.

In the context of what local communities have been doing, reference was made to the role of amateurs. From the exalted heights of the professionals such people might appear distasteful and not to be encouraged, but they have been responsible for maintaining many documents that would otherwise have been lost. I can think of two examples where funding came from the Leader programme. One was in New Ross, where the manifests of ships that brought emigrants to Australia and the New World are all maintained. There is now a centre where people who come back looking for their roots can carry out research. That is a big industry which can be exploited from a tourist point of view.

Those documents are preserved and their data has been filed on computers. The technology they have adopted provides an example for the national scene. Due to lack of space it is not always possible to keep the actual papers in one place, but it is necessary to maintain the information they contain, which can be done effectively on computer. Such data can be backed up and will never be lost.

The second example is in the north Mayo heritage centre on the shores of Lough Conn. With the assistance of the Leader programme they have collated parish registers containing information on births, marriages and deaths going back many years. They have a done a good job and people come from all over the world to carry out research at that centre. That is an example of what local communities have been able to do; and if they can do it I do not see why the State, with its greater power and resources, cannot do it at national level.

On the technology front, a greater input can be made by storing information on computer disks. When I worked full-time on the Farmers Journal, we put a lot of the early editions on microfilm. However, it is not a good way of maintaining documents unless there are good conditions for storing the film, which might otherwise deteriorate. In many cases microfilm can deteriorate more rapidly than paper-based documents.

I am bringing a layman's perspective to bear on these matters because I do not have the expertise of Senator Manning. I know he is waiting enthusiastically for the annual opening up of all these historic documents to wade through them.

Mr. Manning

Don't we all?

Mr. Dardis

No, I must say I do not. I wait for The Irish Times the following day to find out what Senator Manning has gone to so much effort to bring to our attention. It is of huge interest when these documents are opened. They should be maintained, but in some instances it is more a question of how they are maintained to avoid deterioration as, regrettably, appears to have happened in the vaults beneath us. It may have been more appropriate to store some of the wine, which has been circulating in media reports recently, there to keep it in good condition so that we might use it in the restaurant later.

The motion is not particularly congratulatory of the Government and requests that Government Departments fulfil their obligations. I wish to raise the matter of obligations on local authorities, or the possibilities for them, under the Local Government Act, 1994. I am not sure if the provisions of the Act that relate to the maintenance of local archives within counties are in force. It is perhaps invidious to expect the Minister to answer that immediately, but he may have the answer.

The archive is important and should be maintained. I support the motion on the basis that history informs our actions and is part of what we are.

Mr. McAughtry

I have a few thoughts on this very important subject, and we owe Senator Manning a good deal for raising it. This question can be summed up by our admission that the Irish are a sloppy nation. I disagree with Senator O'Sullivan, who said we were good at collecting artefacts. In my travels in England, usually to go racing, the journey from Stratford upon Avon to Cheltenham racecourse takes you through the English heritage. I have often prayed that we would see that here one day, because Ireland is a disgrace as far as its visual heritage is concerned. We have destroyed our historic buildings and all visible signs of our past way of life. It is no surprise that the origins of our history lie rotting to pieces in cellars.

I do not know whether that is the ethic in the North. I worked in the Civil Service there and about 30 years ago Departments were asked to go through their files to select archival material. Unfortunately, as I remarked at the time, weeding of files was left to relatively junior officers in the first instance. Even then it was clear that treasure could be unearthed in the most unexpected places — one might find a notation on a minute or a piece of scrap paper by a person who had since become important historically, like Craig or Brooke. The Public Record Office in Northern Ireland is a credit to the Province, no matter how one looks at it, and it is a good model to take.

Archivists here, like archivists everywhere, do not have loud voices. By the nature of their calling they are not pushy and they cannot fight and argue their case. All of us on the island should take the blame — no matter who was in Government or if statements are made across the Seanad which cause umbrage, we are all guilty.

As Senator Dardis said, a great deal of the donkey work has been done by historians, whether amateur or professional. At one point, when I was writing a travel book, I was going through a Border area and read a history, written by a local priest, about the trouble and violence involved in laying down the Border. I noticed something which amused me, although it was taken seriously by the wrong sort of people. When the amateur historian mentioned a local man who lost his life, he always used his affectionate name, such as Jimmy, Joey or Willie; when a policeman lost his life, only his surname was given — it was Jackson or Ferguson who bit the dust. This struck me as history which had been lifted from the newspapers; and, while they are a valuable source, there is no better one than the archives of Government. A duty lies on all Members of the Oireachtas to preserve them now. We are fond of hugging our history as if we loved it, but we use it for other ends. We parade our history like a baby dolled up in a pram, but we do not feed it. We watch it becoming emaciated before our eyes and cover it up, using it as we like. I am grateful for the opportunity to join in this valuable debate.

Dr. Henry

When I was in Romania recently with an interparliamentary group delegation, we had the opportunity to see the enormous parliamentary building erected by Ceaucescu and talk with parliamentarians about its usefulness or otherwise. They told us they had great difficulties in deciding to work within this building as it was an emotive place for many of them and there had been a great deal of destruction in the area to erect it. However, they decided that since it was there, they should use it.

One matter they had not taken into account was the enormous cost of running such a building — during the winter they had huge heating bills and during the summer, enormous air conditioning expenses. Even though the proper thing to do was to use the building, and it had been beautifully furnished, with expensive modern art, it was a tremendous drain on the budget. It is a glorious looking building — although with too much marble and gilt for my liking — and they decided that as it was there they would have to maintain it.

The National Archives are incredibly important and I do not grudge one penny piece of what they have received over the last ten years. However, there are other institutions with a great amount of archival material which are not receiving funds at present. The Trinity library is most useful to Members of the Oireachtas because books not in our Library are borrowed from there and it is happy to pass books on to Members so that we can have the benefit of them. The Trinity library was started 400 years ago, at the establishment of the university. Its particular importance is that it is a designated library under the Copyright Act, passed at the time of the Act of Union, which made it essential for all publishers to give a copy of any book they publish to the Trinity library.

The library has other sources of books — it does not solely rely on copyright material from publishers. People from all over Ireland have bequeathed books and archival material from their own small libraries, in houses and rectories, to the university. Funds were raised for the purchase of books and some important libraries were acquired abroad and brought back to the university. Last week, there was a book sale within the university — I assure Senators it was paperbacks, etc. — to buy more books for the university where additional copies were considered to be needed. When this State was founded, UK publishers argued that an Irish library should be outside the Copyright Act; but these moves were successfully resisted and the library still receives copyright material.

Over recent years funding of universities has been greatly changed. Under-graduates no longer have to pay fees and universities are run on unit cost funding. There is some dispute as to how or whether we should be allowed to set fees for post-graduate students. The university must look carefully at how it will maintain the various institutions within its bounds. That is why, under the archival debate, it is suitable to mention the necessity of ensuring that libraries such as this get sufficient funds from the Government to maintain the library, where that is necessary. It is all very well to accumulate material but it is useless if one does not have enough money to maintain it, especially with a product as vulnerable as paper. When the Government considers funding for universities, it should consider the enormous amount Trinity spends on maintaining this national asset and should ensure than adequate funding is made available.

Since the burning of the library in Alexandria, civilisation has realised the great importance of keeping safely, and maintaining access, to the written word. What point is there having books if no one can read them? I ask the Minister that when the Government is considering the funding of the universities, it should take particular note of Trinity's great expenditure on the maintenance of the library. All the other major libraries in universities within the British Isles get funding and I hope this can be taken into account. It is essential for the students, who are being paid for on a unit cost basis, and for post-graduates, Members of the Oireachtas, etc. to have access to this enormous national treasure. I hope it will not be neglected. I realise the value of the National Archives but some of this material is archival also.

Mr. Hayes

I support the motion and congratulate Senator Manning for the eloquence and thoroughness of his contribution, which put the situation of the National Archives on the record. This debate provides us with an opportunity to assess the ten year history of the 1986 National Archives Act and to plan for the next ten years. We should highlight the importance of archives and of keeping accurate records and documents of previous times. In this regard, it would be remiss of me not to mention the work done by Dr. Garret FitzGerald. He was one of the leading instigators behind the 1986 Bill. It is an example of where an academic can play a useful and positive role as a Member of the Oireachtas, although some might suggest that academics take from the effectiveness of the Oireachtas. Dr. FitzGerald put that Act on the Statute Book and Mr. Liam Cosgrave introduced the 30 year rule.

Because of the turbulence of the Civil War and the period which followed, we have not been good in dealing with contemporary events. One of the important things about the 30 year rule is that it focuses academics and people doing research projects on recent history. As regards historiography, this country lags behind countries in Europe and America, in particular, in making contemporary history a reality. History can be a healing process, although raising grievances on both sides, particularly in the case of Northern Ireland, can be divisive. The availability of archives for researchers can help to expand our knowledge of a situation in a balanced way.

Reference was made to the excellence of the Northern Ireland Office. While I do not oppose that view, according to researchers to whom I spoke, countless files in various Departments throughout the Province are not coming on stream because of the sensitivity of the situation. That is unhelpful in putting together a clear history of the island in the recent past.

I did some work on the teaching of Irish history between 1922 and 1932 and the State's influence on the education sector. I was brought up with a great sense of admiration for the men and women of 1922-32 who made this country a State during a difficult time. An area in which we did not help citizens was in the teaching of Irish history during that period. It has been described as a period of patriotic historiography which helped to form and mould children's minds and views up to the 1950s. It has been argued that the revisionist movement in the 1960s was a direct result of the patriotic historiography taught to children in the 1930s and 1950s. The work I have done on that period shows clearly that the State's policy as directed by the Department of Education was to feed children a diet of nationalist history which was not in keeping with all the facts. One of the benefits of the revisionist movement over the past 20 years has been to rebalance the emphasis and focus of the teaching of history in schools.

History is important at all levels of education. It is important that young children feel at home with archives, which are a primary source of information — the raw evidence of history. The Minister, in reformulating the junior certificate, in particular, has placed special emphasis on ensuring that children feel at home using primary sources. Facilities must be available at local level, through council libraries, and in the national office in Bishop Street which does not open on Saturdays. Many local historians or amateurs do not have time during the week to access the data required because they are working from nine to five. I ask the Minister to consider extending the opening hours of the office in Bishop Street.

I support Senator Henry's comments on Trinity College, Dublin, where I spent some time. Trinity College library is a fantastic resource because it receives every publication in the English language. When I put together a few publications for a political party for whom I worked I was told that if I did not send a copy to Trinity College, Dublin, I would be asked to do so very quickly. I support the motion which focuses attention on a critically important part of the history of this State.

Mr. Lanigan

While I welcome this debate, too much emphasis has been placed on academia. The advisory council is full of academics. National archives have nothing to so with academia or the colleges but relate to the history of the State, whether the people come from the halls of academia or a bog. The colleges allowed a lot of material to leave this country down through the years. Perhaps they did not have the money to buy it; perhaps they did not look at the material in catalogues from George Mealy or buy catalogues from Sotheby's in London; perhaps they did not visit the book shops in London or London's best newspaper in Kinerton Street where one finds old newspapers from the 18th and 19th centuries, including the old farmer's gazettes which provide a social history but I do not believe academia will look after such material.

There are many small museums throughout the country. The archival material in the new library in Cashel is as good as one would find anywhere. One will find incunabula in St. Canice's Cathederal in Kilkenny. I would not like this material to be taken from these places and stored in the National Archives. The Department of Defence is considering returning the military history of Ireland to the National Archives. These historical documents should be kept in the Department of Defence. We should ensure that all documentation is put on computer so that the National Archives can become a computer centre. Paper is most vulnerable and the material should be left where it came from originally if the heat, light and other conditions necessary for maintaining the archives are available there. The records of the modern Irish State date from the time the British left. Care must be taken to ensure the continuum of records from the old days to today.

Senator Manning will remember that when this building was being renovated, it was suggested that we leave Leinster House and meet in various buildings in this area on a temporary basis. The desecration of old books, magazines, papers and records I saw in this area opened my eyes and I will never forget it. The records of the Kilkenny Archaeological Society, which is the oldest in Ireland, are kept in the basement of the National Museum and nobody knows or cares about the condition they are in. We keep asking for the archival material and physical artefacts to be brought back to Kilkenny, but we cannot even obtain an assessment of their condition.

This issue must be considered in a local context. Public records have been lost, some of which consist of receipts of county councils for goods they bought over the years. They are as important as speeches made by Ministers or the records of any Department because they contain social history.

Books, pamphlets and leaflets are important in a historical context. The most successful auction of these is carried out by George Mealy in Kilkenny, and libraries from America, Russia and all over the world are buying them. At times I am sick of the lack of interest in purchasing them by the State and universities. Some of these records refer to the universities and the setting up of the State. Certain book shops in London say that if people want books and magazines of Irish interest, they should go to auctions. There is a small book auction near Jury's Hotel which has access to more of the archival material of the modern Irish State than the National Archives. If the State is not willing or able to keep national archival material in Bishop Street, there are other places which are capable of doing this.

This debate is necessary. The motion states that the Seanad notes the first four reports of the National Archives Advisory Council. These reports were never discussed in the other House. However, some of these reports go back to 1991. We should have a debate each year when the council's report is published. It is incumbent on the other House to at least address the matter we have discussed this evening. Every day we are losing things which in ten, 15, 20 or 25 years' time will be lost forever. We will stand here and ask why we let pamphlets be sold at auctions in Dublin or Kilkenny for £35 or £40. This situation is disgraceful.

Minister of State at the Department of Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht (Mr. Carey)

I am pleased to have the opportunity to discuss the work of the National Archives. The Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Michael D. Higgins, regretted that he could not be here to listen to and participate in the discussion, but he had to undertake a previously arranged visit abroad on official business. I know he will be anxious to brief himself on our debate when he returns.

Too often heritage and cultural institutions are seen as something peripheral to key economic and social questions. It is our aim to move these issues centre stage and to recognise their central role in contributing to the social and economic development of the country and their fundamental importance to our identity as individuals and a people.

Perhaps the National Archives are somewhat less well known than our other institutions but that is not to underestimate their importance. The record of how Government and its administration interacted with the community over the centuries is central to understanding our development. The National Archives are a rich resource for historians and researchers in studying major events but also for individuals researching the history of their own family. This debate highlights the work of the National Archives and I hope it will increase public awareness of their importance and the challenges facing them today and in the years ahead.

The National Archives Act, 1986, recognised the need to put in place an appropriate legal framework which would protect and facilitate the development of this part of our national heritage. This Act also established the National Archives Advisory Council, the reports of which are the subject of our debate. The motion, in recognising the enormous progress made since then, acknowledges the role of the council in fulfilling its primary task in advising, first, the Taoiseach, and since 1993, the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht, on the operation of the National Archives Act and on all matters affecting archives and their use by the public.

I would like to take this opportunity to compliment the members of the council for their tireless, committed and focused work since its establishment in 1987 under the chairmanship of the late Justice Niall McCarthy. The zeal with which he carried out his role has been ably continued by the present chairman, Justice Hugh O'Flaherty. It is a measure of the seriousness of the manner in which the council takes its responsibilities, operating as it does in a voluntary capacity, that it has provided these comprehensive and well produced reports. I would also like to echo the sentiments of the motion which also commends the work of the staff of the National Archives since its establishment.

I think it is useful to remind the House of the progress which has been made. The enactment of the National Archives Act necessitated the finding of suitable and ample space to fulfil the requirements of the legislation. At the time the predecessors of the National Archives, the Public Records Office and the State Paper Office, were spread over a number of locations including the Four Courts, Dublin Castle, Dominick Street and Rathmines Road. Needless to say, this was a most unsatisfactory situation and one which was addressed by Government. The National Archives were regrouped and relocated to a more appropriate purpose built premises at Bishop Street and in the period 1990 to 1993 the bulk of the papers were transferred to these premises. Work continues apace in bringing these premises to the professional standard required.

Services to the public were enhanced in 1992, when the new reading room was opened for use by researchers and others. This has been a much welcomed and used facility with the number of visits to the reading room increasing by upwards of 25 per cent since 1993 to 19,400 in 1995. In addition, the National Archives last year recognised and responded to the ever increasing interest in our past and in individuals' thirst for knowledge of their own personal roots. To help meet this need and integrate themselves into the information technology revolution, the National Archives installed themselves, through the co-operation, sponsorship and good offices of the Dublin Institute of Technology, onto the Internet via the World Wide Web.

The results of this exercise have surpassed expectation. The archives told me that its pages are now accessed approximately 12,000 times weekly, representing access by about 4,000 individuals each week. I also gather that a marked interest has been shown recently from Australia. The tourism related potential in this development in the genealogical sphere cannot be underestimated. Information on the National Archives, as well as sources of information for family history and genealogy, women's history and Famine research, are included in the service. This is a laudable development for which the staff of the archives and the Dublin Institute of Technology are to be commended. This area will lend itself to future expansion.

As the council stated, all Departments are legally bound to have transferred to the National Archives those papers and files provided for in the National Archives Act, 1986. I understand the current position, since the publication of the council's report, is that eight Departments are fully up to date, that is, they have transferred all records due for transfer up to and including the year 1965. A further six are one or two years in arrears and two Departments have not yet completed the transfer of their pre 1961 records. One of the latter Departments completed the preparations for the transfer of the outstanding records during 1995, but the National Archives is not at present in a position to accept them due to shortage of storage space. I will refer to this issue later. Some records of the remaining Department are also ready for transfer, but this Department has still a great deal of work to do to complete the transfer.

If the archives are to continue to develop, a range of issues needs to be addressed. The council identify these in its reports, and particularly in its fourth report. These relate principally to the accommodation in the short and long terms and to staffing levels. This is not a problem unique to the National Archives. Neither the Minister nor I could say we are happy that the national cultural institutions under the aegis of the Department of Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht have the resources we wish and which would be considered necessary if they are to play their full and proper role in Irish life.

It is, unfortunately, a fact that many of these institutions have suffered serious underfunding and lack of other resources for considerable periods. They had to carry on their work of preserving, collecting, researching and making available to the public the valuable collections which the State has in its possession, often under unfavourable conditions and severe pressures. The State is indebted to the commitment of the staff and management of these institutions for their continued dedication.

The establishment of the Department of Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht was in part a response to these deficiencies and there has been an improvement in the funding of these institutions in recent years. Funding for the National Archives, exclusive of staff costs, has shown an 18 per cent increase in the same period. The archives currently has a complement of 31 permanent staff, compared to approximately 28 at the time of its transfer to the Department in 1993. In addition, four temporary archivists were employed over four of the past five years. Their contribution has undoubtedly made a significant impact on the work of the archives.

These increases were achieved at a time of considerable financial constraints in all areas and are tangible evidence of the serious efforts being made in relation to all the national cultural institutions to redress the situation in which they have found themselves over a number of years. It is a measure of the importance in which the work of these institutions, including the archives, is held. There is now a recognition that arts, culture and heritage matters are no longer regarded as on the margins of life, but rather they are to be integrated into society's everyday experiences. However, development will have to continue to take place in the context of the Government's policies in relation to public sector expenditure and employment.

The fourth report of the National Archives Advisory Council outlines in detail the current accommodation difficulties of the archives. Notwithstanding the considerable improvement in accommodation provided in the last ten years by the Bishop Street premises, the archives requires further accommodation if it is to continue to accept the records which Departments are required to transfer to it. In the short term this problem will be relieved by the transfer of a unit of the Government Supplies Agency from the Bishop Street building, thus vacating space which will become available to the archives. I understand this involves one floor. It was envisaged that this section would have been relocated some time ago; but due to the nature of the machinery and other material to be transferred, it has proved more difficult than anticipated to find a suitable location.

I am assured, however, that decisions have been taken recently which will alleviate these problems and arrangements are being made to vacate this portion of the building as soon as possible. It is envisaged, therefore, that the archives will be in a position to take possession of this additional space in the last quarter of the year and prepare for the receipt of the records as required. As I said, the resolution of this situation will address the immediate needs of the archives as regards storage facilities.

A longer term and more serious storage problem has been identified by the council and the director and staff of the archives. Each year documents will need to be transferred to the archives in accordance with the Act and it is necessary to plan for these needs now. The council and staff of the archives accordingly submitted an ambitious and comprehensive plan for the adaptation of a large warehouse which adjoins the current archives premises to meet their future demands. This building is currently in use by the Land Commission and the Government Supplies Agency. Serious preparation and consideration were undertaken by the council in formulating this proposal, for which it is to be commended.

The Office of Public Works undertook preliminary surveys regarding the adaptation of the warehouse for archival use, following which a report was commissioned by an international specialist in this field. A number of possible structural and financial options suggested by the specialist were considered by the council, ranging in cost from £7 million to £11.2 million. In view of the specific environmental, security and accessibility requirements involved in this matter, the council recommended the £11 million option. As Senators will appreciate, a proposal for capital investment of this magnitude requires serious and detailed consideration and this examination is currently underway.

I am pleased to draw attention to a significant development in an area raised by the council's fourth report. The council asked that positive measures be taken to encourage the placing of collections of historical documents in public institutions through the provision of tax incentives. This was achieved in section 176 of the Finance Act, 1995, which provides tax relief on the donation of important heritage items. The selection of suitable items for donation is administered by a committee, which includes among its members the director of the National Archives.

The considerable contribution of the council is continuing with the preparation of a strategic plan for the archives. It is important that bodies and agencies engage not only in current concerns, but also in planning future direction and strategy. A specific allocation was granted to the council to assist it in its preparation of this document. As the House is aware, considerable work is in train at central and departmental levels regarding strategic planning in the public service. Such planning is targeted at making the most of existing resources, clarifying objectives and improving the service provided to the public. I am sure the work of the council will be a valuable input to the archives in this process.

The motion commends the adoption by all statutory and local authorities of procedures designed to protect valuable archival material in their care and I fully support this suggestion. The importance of the correct preservation of archives and their place in local communities has been highlighted in recent years and I am glad this need is being recognised throughout the country by all those involved in the maintenance of archival material.

Such was the importance attached to this that the Local Government Act, 1994, provided that it would be a function of each local authority to make arrangements for the management, custody, care, conservation and public inspection of its records. The Act also provides that the Minister for the Environment, having consulted the Director of the National Archives, may give advice or direction to local authorities relating to records and archives.

Arising from the decision of a steering committee established by the Minister for the Environment to study the archival needs of local authorities, four temporary archivists were employed in the period January to June 1995 to carry out a survey in the National Archives of local authority records. This was a welcome and tangible support and I commend the Minister for this initiative. The costs associated with the survey were met by the Minister and the work was supervised by the staff of the National Archives. I understand a report on their findings is in the process of being submitted by the steering committee to the Minister. I have no doubt that the results provided by the survey will enable local authorities to begin the necessary work in bringing their records into line with the terms of the Act.

I thank the Senators who have spoken. Their contributions have varied and have been answered in one way or another in my speech. I was interested to hear Senator McAughtry's comparison between the North and the South. He has championed his own area. However, there are examples in this country where people have had a substantial interest in maintaining records.

Senator Dardis spoke about New Ross and County Mayo. In my own diocese of Killaloe a heritage centre has been built in Corofin. It contains valuable records of births, marriages and deaths in the diocese. It has proved a valuable addition to the areas and a good tourism attraction. If Senator Mooney and others in County Leitrim could look after their area they would find that it is worth putting the diocesan records on computer. As a national body, FÁS would provide employment to some of those with an interest in the area.

Mr. Mooney

I am grateful to the Minister of State.

Mr. Carey

Contrary to the claims by Senator Mooney, I understand that photocopies of material are provided on request by the National Archives. The council complained that neither the Taoiseach nor the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht met it. However, the Minister met the council to discuss the problems raised in the report. He is hopeful that progress can be made on the accommodation aspect; one floor at least would be helpful. I hope the submission regarding the building and the warehouse will be approved and that matters will proceed. It will probably take longer than originally intended.

Senators ranged over a wide area. Senator Dardis referred to the time scale. It is a matter for historians to decide if they want to open records earlier. We have always been afraid to look back at the records of our immediate past. However, we have made progress over the past number of years and perhaps we will have the courage to introduce a 15 or 20 year rule.

Mr. Lanigan

That would be in the interest of open Government?

Mr. Carey

The lack of exhibition space was mentioned by a number of Senators. The Department of Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht would be happy to make exhibition space available in Mespil Road on a temporary basis if it was required. There have been valuable exhibitions at the Department's offices in Mespil Road. Those wishing to hold an archival exhibition, even of Kilkenny artefacts, are welcome to do so. Much of the material that used to emanate from Kilkenny might become archival.

The Local Government Act, 1994, has been in force since 1994. While Senators complained about the number of local authorities that had undertaken the necessary work, it is too early to have it fully assessed. It is encouraging, however, that Senators have put down motions at local authority level. The local authority staff should be encouraged to do something. I am not sure what building they would utilise in each area. However, they could get rid of dereliction in their areas and convert buildings that may be of use. The so called shortages of funding are not limiting the imagination of those looking after local authorities.

Mr. Mooney

Imagination is the word.

Mr. Lanigan

Certainly on the issue of water charges.

Mr. Carey

There is an opportunity here which should not be lost.

Mr. Mooney

Perhaps more innovation is required.

Mr. Carey

I would not be able to deal with the problem of paper, computers and film records. In my experience, film records are not very reliable. If the State archives were to be committed to computer it would cost an enormous amount of money, much more than is available at present, and considerably more than the proposal to put £11.2 million into the warehouses at the back of Bishop Street.

I support Senator Henry's call for more investment in libraries such as those at the University of Dublin, Trinity College, or University College Dublin. However, not enough emphasis has been placed on the provisions in the Finance Act, 1995, giving tax free concessions to those willing to make investments in libraries. Perhaps the universities should follow up on this. The council made this recommendation and it should be followed through.

I thank Senators. While I have other snippets of information to provide, I will use another occasion to deliver them.

Mr. O'Toole

I thank the people in the National Archives. They are yet another example of public servants doing extraordinarily good work. They are to be commended. They work in poor conditions and in overcrowded accommodation and they have few resources for people with high expectations. This is following the proud tradition of the national teachers who do the same job day in and day out. I have a lot of sympathy for the people who work in the National Archives.

Mr. Mooney

If its headquarters look as good as the Senator's headquarters, there will be no problem.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Senator O'Toole, without interruption.

Mr. O'Toole

Public servants stick together at times like this.

I recall my introduction to the importance of archives when I started teaching in Oberstown school in north Dublin. Its records dated from before the foundation of the State. One teacher spent her career there from before 1920 to the 1950s. She had the same inspector for crafts all that time, who became known as the "knitting inspector". Her first report in 1920 stated that the young teacher could benefit from paying more attention to her knitting drills. When the final report was written in the early 1950s, the State had changed to the national language, so the report read: "Ba chóir don oide seo níos mó aire a thabhairt do na cniotála druileanna". That proves nothing changed except the management in 1920.

There is a serious ongoing debate about the importance of history and about giving people a sense of place and a cultural identity. It is important to remember that the National Archives is a cultural institution. It is not just dusty papers lying on shelves; these are defining papers on our heritage and culture and the way they devolve and change. It is crucial because they give us a sense of place.

The work done in the National Archives is superb. My organisation was founded in 1868 and it is difficult to keep the archives in order. I noted the strategic plan in the reports. It is great that those who work in the National Archives are as visionary as they are historical. Their outlook is balanced in that they can deal with the past while having a vision of the future. They are talking about the preparations for the new millennium. This gives me a sense of confidence about what is being done there.

Many issues must be dealt with, including computer access and retrieval. A true archivist would say we should keep the originals. I would prefer — I know this goes against the views of those who work there — if they were computerised rather than spending money on a new building because I am worried that something could happen to them. Such documents should be kept in a place which is accessible so that they can be moved from one place to another. There should be an equal shareout of money between extending the buildings and the exhibition space on the one hand, and computerising the material on the other. All records are now computerised and the National Archives should do so as well. Access through computers will not cause wear and tear to the originals. I support this aspect of the strategic plan.

Staffing was already mentioned. The Minister said the National Archives has a staff of between 28 and the early 30s. This is about a third of what is available in Northern Ireland, which indicates the amount of resources being used there. One of the reports shows that in Scotland there are approximately 130 people working in a similar institution. That puts the figures in context. I am not saying we should match those figures but we should provide sufficient funds. We can trade on the goodwill of people who are overworked and under-resourced for a certain period, but they eventually burn themselves out. We need more funding to move things along. We need to extend the space available and ambient temperature and storage facilities must also be considered.

I do not want to take up more time by restating what other people said. There is a typing error on the script; the word "Mr." is dropped. Mr. Justice O'Flaherty is a judge as was his predecessor, the late Niall McCarthy.

The issue to extend this service to local authorities is crucial to create a culture of dealing with archives historically. The Irish Labour History Society, among others, does a lot of work in this area with few resources. It is important to spread the message that there are archives for different areas, whether it is for Muintir na Tíre or on building a local hall in the 1950s.

I congratulate the people in the National Archives and I wish them well. I am delighted to have had the opportunity to contribute to this debate. Many of us depend on what they do and it helps to plan for the future in the best possible way.

Ms Kelly

I used the National Archives recently and the staff could not have been more helpful or courteous. It is a lovely building and the research room is well lit and laid out. Greater resources should be made available because their work is invaluable. Archival material should not be seen as something which is stored in Departments. There are many sources of archival material.

An old school record from Glyn was recently rescued in County Limerick. This was one of the few school records left in the parish because the Knight of Glyn's predecessors had set fire to many parish records. It was important because it showed people's occupations in the parish. Many people, for example, were amazed that some of them were descended from an individual who gave his profession as beggarman.

Vital information about our past and our heritage are contained in such records. However, many documents have been lost. A minute book belonging to the Town Commissioners in Newcastlewest, for example, was rescued from an outshed. It had invaluable information about the way that small town ran its business from 1900 to 1922. How many other books with vital information about a town or parish have been lost in the same way?

I congratulate the staff of the National Archives and I encourage them to continue their good work.

Mr. Manning

I thank the Members who contributed. It has been a useful and worthwhile debate. The Minister gave a comprehensive speech which contained nuggets of good news. There is a sense that the National Archives is being taken seriously by the Government and that there are plans for its future development. That is good news and I thank the Minister for it.

I wish to explain to Senator Mooney why I was a little cross earlier. The Senator inadvertently misinterpreted both my motives and the wording.

Mr. Mooney

I concede.

Mr. Manning

My reason for putting down this motion was summed up by Senator McAughtry when he said: "Archivists do not have loud voices". A debate such as this evening's allows us to articulate the concerns, hopes and views of those who are most closely associated with the National Archives. It also enables us to put on record our sense of the importance of the work they are doing. The National Archives are, in a real sense, a national treasure and they have made more progress over the past ten years than in the previous 60. They are now well based to continue to make good progress and to realise their potential. This evening's debate emphasised that.

People employed in the National Archives can work for years on end and feel that they and the importance of what they are doing are not appreciated and that the dedication they bring to their work goes unrecognised by the wider public, especially by politicians. Tonight, the strong sense of the importance of the National Archives, the advisory council and those who work there came across.

Senator Lanigan was cross with academics and said there were too many of them on the council. I disagree with him. The council is well balanced and there is a good mix of people with much practical experience and vision. They try to promote that vision. However, there is little difference between what an academic would describe as archive material and what the Senator described as archive material. The school books in the folklore museum in UCD, the essays written by children between 40 and 60 years ago which are also in that museum, the collections of folklore as well as the manifests of the ships in New Ross to which Senator Dardis referred, the roll books in schools, the minute books — all are part of a national archive.

Members repeatedly referred to the growth in local archives throughout the country. That has been a marvellous development. The Old Carlow Society has been collecting material for the past 50 years, including material which gave a contemporaneous account of 1798 in Carlow and which led to a book being produced on that subject. That material would have disappeared were it not for local historians and archivists. The more people are encouraged by the State in doing this work, the better. Politicians have an opportunity to do that.

Senator Lanigan also referred to the dispersal of papers. That is a real problem, but he was wrong to blame the universities. The universities do not have the money to buy collections of papers. All of them are starved for funds and do not have discretionary budgets, except in rare cases. However, important documents leaving the country is a problem. My great friend, the late Augustine Martin, managed to raise money to save the Patrick Kavanagh papers for this country. Those papers could have ended up in some university in Texas or Oklahoma. It may be the case that saving such papers in the future will depend on groups fund raising to do so. It cannot reasonably be expected to be a first charge on the public purse.

I was pleased at the progress, small as it is, announced by the Minister on the question of local authorities. Local records must be preserved and our successors will not forgive us if much of that material is lost. Such records also have a useful tourist value.

The debate has been positive and I hope what was said will be an encouragement to those working in the National Archives and will jog the memory of the Minister and his Department that the National Archives are an important part of the Department's portfolio. I hope they will get even more assistance than they have received in the past.

Question put and agreed to.

An Cathaoirleach

When is it proposed to sit again?

Mr. Manning

Tomorrow morning at 10.30.