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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 30 May 1996

Vol. 147 No. 11

Delivering Better Government: Statements (Resumed).

The issue of delivering better government concerns every citizen and taxpayer and should concern every Member of the Oireachtas. The manner in which government is delivered is vital from the point of view of obtaining value for taxpayers' money and achieving the best possible service for the citizens of the State.

On the last occasion we debated this issue I made the point that government is not user-friendly. It is user-hostile and is excessively centralised, secretive and bureaucratic. It is extraordinary that 30 years after the establishment of the Devlin committee, Irish government should be the subject of another study. It is also extraordinary that this study, carried out through the strategic management initiative, should reach precisely the same conclusions as the Devlin report 30 years ago. The basic conclusion of both studies is that there is a Victorian notion, nonsense or myth at the heart of government which involves the concept of ministerial responsibility. The nonsense that each Minister is aware, through his or her wisdom, of everything that occurs in every nook and cranny of their Department was never meant to be taken literally.

The notion of ministerial responsibility is taken literally in this country when it suits the politics of a situation. A little over 12 months ago the then Taoiseach was expected to resign because a senior public servant consigned a letter to a drawer in their desk. At present a similar dispute is taking place in relation to the Duncan extradition warrant. I submit that this type of political argument is facile, politically disruptive and damaging. We live in a State where people are not merely obliged to deal with an excessively centralised, bureaucratic and secretive administration, but one with which the vast majority of people feel they have no contact. There is a feeling of anonymity at the interface level and that people are not being served by the administration. This view is not unique to Ireland. There are problems in all developed economies with the relationship between the citizen and the state.

Some years ago Professor Dror of the Hebrew University listed challenges which he said faced public administration as we went into the final years of the century. He talked about an economic environment where resources are less abundant than in the past and a changed cultural environment where the public demands the right to participate in government. He talked about a growing sense of individual rights where people are no longer prepared to be told what to do by administrative bureaucrats without having some say in it. He talked about a growing and healthy tendency to question authority and a general disenchantment with government. He also spoke about the growing complexity of society and the external environment in which public administration exists. He said all of these and other reasons provide us with a rationale for ongoing examination of the administrative structures and reform strategies.

The reform strategies which we have adopted have been episodic in almost the same measure as they have been unsuccessful. Thirty years ago we put in place the Devlin team which produced a very fine report. For a variety of reasons, ranging from a lack of political will across the spectrum to senior administrative obscurantism and obstruction, the Devlin report was never put into operation. I remind the Minister of State of a very fine speech made at her party's Ard Fheis some years ago by John Boland, who had similar ministerial responsibilities to those of the Minister of State. He pointed out that the myth of a lack of political will did not stand up to examination. In 1977 the then Taoiseach gave commitments when he took office on the implementation of the Devlin report. His predecessor from the Minister of State's party had also given such commitments. However, those political commitments were obstructed by administrative activity.

The collapse of the Devlin report left us with a situation where we had a 19th century form of administration dealing with a growing variety of public services and an increasingly complex society. For that reason I appreciate and applaud the central proposition in this report. However, I suggest respectfully to the Minister of State that much more needs to be done. The central core of Senator McGowan's point this morning was the bureaucratic language of a letter which meant nothing at the end of the day. There is, unfortunately, too much jargon in this report.

A bigger lacuna in this report is that when the Devlin report collapsed in the 1970s and 1980s it was not unique in that regard. A variety of what were known as "grand reform strategies" collapsed around the world. The Fulton report was consigned to the waste bin in Britain. The Glasgow report went the same way in Canada. There were also problems in the United States with reform strategies. Out of that collapse an alternative view was taken which was the subject of an OECD paper in the mid 1980s. That paper suggested that rather than go for "grand reform strategies", it would be much more sensible and economical if governments pursued "selective radical strategies".

I wish to suggest to the Minister of State a number of reasons why that approach should be adopted. Second, if the Minister of State looks at the Programme for Government which her partners in Government and her party prepared, she will see selective radicalism outlined in it. I can say that with some confidence because the relevant ages were agreed between my party and the Labour Party in November 1994 and were obviously carried across into the negotiations by the Labour Party, which I welcome. They were good ideas when I wrote them down and I am pleased the current Government has gone along with them.

Selective radicalism suggests that maximum political attention would be focused on relatively short areas of administration. Second, we could reform key areas of our administration. Third, we could provide continued learning experience regarding administrative reform. Fourth, a strategy of selective radicalism would help the reformers, including the Minister of State, to keep an eye on what was happening and to make necessary changes.

It is unusual for a Member of the Opposition to suggest what should be done, what is missing and the areas the Minister of State might like to look at and address in the fuller implementation of this report. Over the last 30 years efficiency and effectiveness have been dealt with by our public administration. We have had personnel strategies; initiatives aimed at improving management competence; resource allocation and control strategies, from PPBS to zero base budgeting; the introduction of new technologies and disciplines; and a variety of other approaches. We should be focusing on the point — the interface — where the citizen and the State come into contact. There are political, economic and organisational benefits from such a focus.

The contact between the citizen and the administration is politically important because it represents the borderline between the citizen and the State. There is growing evidence the citizen of this State are not happy with how they have to deal with the administration in their day to day lives. Attitudes towards the institutions of State are very important, because if people have a negative attitude towards them they will not have a positive attitude towards the policies which any Government attempts to implement in the interests of the State.

There are economic benefits if we can avoid friction between the citizen and the State. It costs a great deal to fix a case which has gone wrong. The disruption in the House this morning is a case in point. An extremely badly worded letter from the Department of Social Welfare is causing mayhem for students who want to avail of that scheme, and in this House. The avoidance of friction pays dividends to the State.

A smooth relationship is also important in terms of how the people of the nation view politics as a whole, not just the political parties of the day, and how they accept the legitimacy of the Government and its processes. That is important in the Irish context because there is a vivid tradition here of being "agin" the Government. If everybody is "agin" the Government, there cannot be any cohesion in the implementation of public policy or any forward direction, and one is continuously stymied by artificial debates and disputes.

I referred earlier to an OECD paper which was published in the mid 1980s, and which suggested five alternative strategy areas which any reforming Government could look at. The areas ranged from very simple strategies to very complex ones.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator has two minutes remaining.

If the Senator wants another three or four minutes I will concede that to him.

I will briefly mention the five areas. The first was amelioration measures — a general improvement in the ambience of public offices; staggered office opening and closing hours; and joint case handling, where if a person's case transcended the boundaries of two or three organisations the one receiving the case would have to take the case and operate as the case handler in other areas. Amelioration measures would also include simple matters such as forcing public servants to wear identity badges and to identify themselves in communication, and to give people clear guidance on who they could approach. None of these measures would be costly and they would pay tremendous dividends. Ministers should also look at putting an administrative procedures Act on the Statute Book which would outline good practice and make bad practice illegal.

The second type of measures are information ones. These range from simply improving the way language is used in official texts to the use of modern technologies. I draw the Minister of State's attention to, in particular, an initiative used in France where there is a range of telephone numbers, like directory inquires, which put one automatically through to in-house experts in the telephone system. They will tell the citizen who will deal with the citizen's case and will provide additional back-up. There is a cost benefit to this in that those who are confused and go to three or four administrations are eating up administrative time. I can submit details on this to the Minister of State.

Another initiative with which the French were involved was the establishment of a form audit agency. The Minister of State's Department has been attempting to do some form auditing here. There is a need — as set out in the Programme for Government — for a stand alone form audit agency. There is also an urgent need for user councils, where citizens drawn from a wide spectrum look at forms to ascertain if they are comprehensible to the average citizen.

The third area is consultation measures. This covers the entire gamut, including from introducing measures such as the employer labour conferences, which we already have. However, we do not have consultations with the consumers of public services. Every public service department should have a departmental consultation committee drawn up with clients to give a feed back to the department.

Institutional measures are very important. We have looked at a number of these and have introduced institutional changes. The Minister of State is proposing a major institutional change in the document by proposing to get rid of the nonsense of ministerial responsibility. I applaud this and I hope she will be supported from all sides of the House in expeditiously getting through the necessary legislation.

However, other institutional measures are necessary. In addition to looking at measures such as a form audit agency, the Minister of State should look at the idea of creating more joint one stop shops. For example, a person came to me last week who had taken in a child from a family with drug abuse problems. The child was living with the grandmother who admitted this to the Department of Social Welfare whereupon she lost all her social welfare living alone allowances at a stroke. This happened not because those working in the Department are heartless individuals but because they were applying the rules. There was no way they could contact the community care people in the health board. There should be far closer institutional liaison.

With regard to the deinstitutional measures, there is a need to audit regulations and to get rid of excessive regulation. Over her political career the Minister of State has shown an interest in the business community and in the real world outside politics. She will know that, especially with small businesses, excessive regulation bears down as a burden which becomes intolerable. The irony of this is that, in attempting to introduce measures such as improvements in workers' rights, we have created problems for those who want to employ workers.

There is a huge amount to be done. I wish the Minister of State well. My only criticism of the report is that there is an extraordinary and excessive use of jargon. The Minister of State did not write it. Many years ago a person bought stamps from a clerk in a post office. The person complained about the design of stamps to which the clerk responded that he did not draw them, he only sold them. It is a pity there is not more common sense use of language in the document. Perhaps the Minister of State will ensure that her Department will use more ordinary language from hereon.

I thank Senator Roche for his generally supportive and very constructive contribution on which he has spent a considerable time. I may invite him to send me greater details on the two French initiatives to which he referred. I also note his points on the stand alone audit agency. I support the concept of one stop shops and have been beating that drum for some time at local and national level. I refer the Senator to what I said in my opening speech in this debate on the urgent need for regulatory reform.

I thank all the Senators for their contributions to the debate on Delivering Better Government. It has been an interesting and constructive exchange of views and I appreciate the thought and consideration they have given to this important issue. Widespread cross party support for this initiative will be one of the key factors in ensuring the success of delivering the programme.

A number of Senators said that the document was open ended and did not contain enough specifics as regards implementation. Once again, I stress that this is a framework for change which sets out a clear direction for the future. It is part of a process which will involve discussion and consultation with the staff and customers of the Civil Service in working out the arrangements for detailed implementation.

However, work is already well under way on specific aspects of the programme, including new legislation amending the Ministers and Secretaries Act which should be enacted before the end of the year. I note the supportive comments of Senator Roche and others on the need to clarify the area of responsibility.

Senator Roche referred to the nonsense of where responsibility rests to the point that a Taoiseach was expected to resign last year because of human error in the public service. That was not the reason there was expectations on the then Taoiseach to resign. Human error is human error and the difference between the problem with the Duncan extradition warrant and the troubles that befell Deputy Reynolds when he was Taoiseach was in the way he responded to the House and the inaccuracy of his reports to the House on what happened. We will not go down this avenue because we would be here for two days. However, there was a major difference and I wish to put this on record lest my silence lends assent to the remarks that Senator Roche made.

I did not expect assent.

I thank the Senator. Now we know where we stand.

The basic concepts behind Delivering Better Government can be put in three simple statements. In the first instance, it entails delivering an excellent service to the various customers of the Civil Service. This is the principal tenet and most important concept. Second, it involves putting in place the appropriate legislative systems, human resource management and financial management systems to support the delivery of these excellent services. The proposed Administrative Procedures Act, referred to by the Senator, is included in the legislative reform. Third, it is concerned with ensuring that authority, responsibility and accountability rest in the appropriate place. This point was made by Senator Roche and others. I hope the proposed legislative amendments to the Ministers and Secretaries Act will be through both Houses by Christmas, if not very early next year.

The modern, competitive world in which the Civil and public Service are operating necessitates that a new approach is taken. Delivering Better Government brings together in an integrated and coherent way a series of changes across all elements of the Civil Service to respond to this changing environment. Far from being a document prepared by politicians to be imposed upon the Civil Service, Delivering Better Government has been generated by civil servants themselves. This will be an important factor in ensuring the success of the programme.

There is a major difference here from the Devlin Report. There are many similarities between what Devlin recommended and what is in this report, but the problem is that we did not manage to implement Devlin. We will implement what is in Delivering Better Government because the civil servants themselves have ownership of this report and are pushing for change. It is not being imposed centrally by the Department of Finance merely as a cost cutting exercise nor externally by the politicians; civil servants have owner-ship of the report which is a most important difference. The programme is also designed to be inclusive and gives a commitment to full consultation with staff and unions on the implementation of Delivering Better Government. This will be critical for the success of the initiative.

I wish to reassure Senator McAughtry on this last point since he expressed concern that the unions would not be sufficiently involved in the implementation process of Delivering Better Government. Indeed, he drew upon his experience with the British reform programme. The Civil Service unions and ICTU will be represented on the new co-ordinating group of which I spoke when I commenced statements in this House. This group will oversee the implementation of this programme of change for the Civil Service, validate reviews of programmes as requested by Government and report regularly to Government on the progress of the change programme and the SMI.

In this way the unions will have a central involvement in the progression of SMI. Overall, the group will be representative of civil and public servants, consumers and the private sector. Working groups are being established to work out the details on the key areas identified in the report.

Senator Cotter said that "those involved in changes should have a big input". I am in full agreement with him and that is why, alongside the working groups, participative structures will be established in all Departments to involve staff at all levels in bringing this process forward.

This process of inclusion has already begun within the Civil Service. At the time of the launch of this programme on 2 May last, civil servants in every Department and Office around the country were given details of Delivering Better Government in organised briefing sessions. Summaries of the main report were made available to everyone with explanatory leaflets tailored to meet the needs of each individual organisation within the Civil Service. The establishment of structures to enable staff to have an input into the working groups will build on this.

External groups will also be included in the consultation process. Initially, provision for wide public consultation has been made through the provision of a general information leaflet on this programme of reform which is available at Departments and Offices around the country.

I know that Senator Dardis was concerned, as were Senator Roche and many others, that consumers might not be fully consulted on the implementation of Delivering Better Government. I can assure him that they will be an important part of the process. As part of the quality service initiative, a process to ensure continuing consultation with, and feedback from, the public will also be put in place. This will include periodic customer surveys in order to benchmark improvements in service and relevant research.

These are some of the main reasons I am confident that this programme of reform will see results in the Civil Service. I take Senator Lee's point that this report contains no analysis of where previous reform initiatives went wrong, but I think it can be taken that important lessons have been learned from previous attempts to reform the Civil Service. These have been reflected in the way this initiative has been put together and the action it is now proposed to take. In particular, a very different approach to consultation and involvement of staff and unions in bringing the process forward is being adopted. To date there has been involvement across all Departments at senior level in the preparation of the proposals and I believe the process is supported by very strong political leadership. I would emphasise in this context the need for cross party support on a continuing basis, and I thank Senator Roche for his comments in that regard.

As Senator Dardis commented, "there is a quality management deficit in the Irish public sector". To achieve the objective of providing an excellent service to the public, the Civil Service needs to make changes in how it manages performance and in its procedures and processes. In line with this, it is essential that staff be sufficiently motivated and rewarded for their endeavours. The issue of how to provide incentives for staff was raised during this debate. I will not pretend that these details have been worked out; it is still an area of great debate, one on which I am keen but which needs to be handled extremely sensitively. Nevertheless, it must be addressed. These are previously uncharted territories and it is planned to engage consultants to assist in translating high level objectives into key day-to-day activities and to develop and implement a coherent performance management system.

I would appreciate all-party support on the need to engage expertise where it does not exist to manage the enormous programme of change involved in Delivering Better Government. We cannot afford to play political footsie with this issue. In fact, to get value for money and achieve our objectives for change, we need to have the best expertise available to us on a contract or consultancy basis, and I would appreciate support on that matter.

The issue of numbers in the Civil Service also becomes an issue in the pursuit of efficiency. Senator O'Kennedy spoke about this at length — it was one of the contributions I found hard to grasp and understand. It was because numbers were increasing at a disproportionate rate that this Government took action to limit the numbers in the Civil Service by means of an embargo. This was a temporary measure. Yes, it was a crude unscientific measure but it is now being replaced by the agreement of target staffing levels with the individual Departments. The key objective of Delivering Better Government is to achieve maximum efficiency and effectiveness in using resources, particularly human resources, to provide the highest quality services.

Senator Dardis remarked that "there seems to be a perception that the Civil Service is removed from mainstream economic activity". While this perception may exist it is certainly not the case. An effective and efficient Civil Service is one of the key determinants of national competitiveness. We must ensure that the Civil Service and public service of this country contribute in a more competitive way to the economic and social development of this country. In fact, I see the success of both the public service and the private sector inextricably linked in a symbiotic way. The one cannot survive and thrive without the other. It is not a them and us situation; it is only together, rather than in any confrontational or combative way, that we can achieve results.

The best way of delivering services has also been raised and, in particular, Delivering Better Government recommends that provision be made in the general legislative framework to permit the delegation of certain tasks to executive agencies or other appropriate bodies. This is an issue which deserves, and will receive, much further attention.

Delivering Better Government represents an ambitious programme of reform but it is not an unrealistic one. The adoption of this radical programme for change will ultimately result in an Irish public service which will be geared to the achievement of the goals and objectives of this country and will strengthen and deepen the relationship between Government and the citizen. It will ensure that the functions of Government are carried out in the most efficient manner possible and through the most appropriate channels. However, it must be stressed that change as fundamental and farreaching as that recommended in this report will not happen overnight. We are not in the business of quick-fix solutions; we are more concerned with seeing this process through. I have every confidence this will happen with consistent commitment across the Civil Service and, indeed, consistent all-party commitment to see the change through. I thank the Senators for their constructive contributions.

Because of the confusion this morning, I am anxious to ensure all Opposition spokespersons are facilitated, so I move the suspension of the House for five minutes.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Sitting suspended at 11.57 a.m. and resumed at 12.5 p.m.
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