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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 6 Jun 1996

Vol. 147 No. 13

Refugee Bill, 1995: Committee Stage (Resumed).

Debate resumed on amendment No. 45:
In page 26, to delete lines 44 to 46, and substitute the following:
"The Commissioner shall be conversant with and have experience of human rights issues".
—(Senator Mulcahy.)

We were discussing the qualifications which the commissioner is required to have. It would be a good idea to incorporate reference to the qualifications with specific reference to experience of human rights issues.

I worked for a short time in the human rights section of the UN as a human rights fellow in the period 1978-79. It struck me that there were very few people working in that section who had any experience. They were excellent people — technocrats — who had come through the diplomatic services, but none of them had ever argued a human rights case in the field. It did not appear that there was anybody who had come through the NGO circuit.

I would be horrified if we were to include a barrister or solicitor. With due respect to both august professions, the occupation of, or training in either profession does not necessarily make them human rights activists. However, I do not suggest that human rights activists are the only people who should comprise the commission.

I recall studying the implications of ombudsman legislation in various parts of the world. Two people struck me as the most unsuitable people to be ombudsmen. Yet, of all of those I met, they were the most extraordinary. One of them was a Jesuit priest, Fr. Ignatius Killaje, who was the Ombudsman in Papua New Guinea. He became a figure of mythic proportions; his judgments were the judgments of Solomon. He appears not to have had the necessary qualifications — he had not been through the administrative circuit, he did not have the training in public administration and all the things we used to consider necessary — yet he brought an extraordinary abundance of common sense and humanity to the job. It elevated the post.

The other person was an Ombudsman in Alberta, a retired police chief, who also appeared to be unsuitable. I asked him what was the best qualification he had for the job. He told me he had never read the Ombudsman Act. He was not overly fussed with a too fine attention to the detail of the law that established his position; he was interested in the principle.

It is important that we look for somebody who has a track record, experience and has shown some dedication to the concept of human rights. One of the biggest problems in Irish life, and administrative life everywhere, is that very worthy people come through the administrative processes and at the end of their days are appointed to positions. We did not do this when appointing either of our Ombudsmen. The appointment of Michael Mills was inspirational. He got the office off the ground because he was not part of the administrative culture. He looked at it fondly — not in a destructive way — from outside. This humanity was reflected in the way he applied himself to his office.

If we appoint people from a specific profession — for example, a retired judge or retiring senior civil servant — the necessary additional fire that should be in the position could be missing. It would be a good idea to make reference to human rights experience in the Act if possible, or certainly in the criteria for establishing who should take this position.

I am opposing these amendments. Amendment No. 45 would make it a requirement for appointment as the Refugee Applications Commissioner that the person be conversant with and experienced in human rights issues. Amendments Nos. 46 and 47 impose a similar requirement for the chairperson and independent members of the Appeal Board. The amendments also provide that qualification as a barrister or a solicitor is no longer required for the commissioner or the chairperson of the Appeal Board.

While I have been at pains to suggest that I do not see the asylum determination process as being legalistic or adversarial, the person in question should ensure that the process is governed by a desire to ensure absolute fair play for applicants and that the procedures are implemented in accordance with the principles of natural justice. I appreciate that many people would qualify in so far as these requirements are concerned. However, it is appropriate, due to the nature of these positions, to have somebody who has legal training and experience to meet the criteria required.

With regard to the matter of the persons in question having experience in, or training and knowledge of refugee law and international human rights law, I remind Senators that the commissioner must have been a practising barrister or solicitor for at least seven years, while the chairperson must have had ten years experience. Any person with this level of experience and knowledge of law would be expected to know how to access and acquire the specifies of refugee law. This, in effect, is what barristers and solicitors must do on a daily basis. It is what they are trained to do. Accordingly, it would be unduly restrictive and unnecessary to limit the position of commissioner or chairperson only to persons who have specific experience of refugee and human rights law, especially in a situation where the range of persons who could meet this requirement in Ireland is not large.

Of course, such experience may be persuasive, all else being equal, in determining who should be appointed. However, the lack of such experience should not exclude a good candidate — Senator Roche has given us many such examples — especially as there are many excellent courses, particularly with regard to refugee law, which a new commissioner or chairperson would be expected to attend. It is likely that ordinary members of the board would have the necessary experience of refugee and human rights law. However, they would also be asked to attend appropriate training after they are appointed but not before.

In the past the UNHCR has been helpful to the Department of Justice in assisting in training in the refugee application process. It is anxious to assist in ensuring the right level of training is given to all involved in the asylum examination procedures when this Bill is enacted. I assure the House that UNHCR assistance will be sought and appropriate training will be provided for all members of the board, regardless of their experience. In view of these assurances I hope the Senator will withdraw the amendments.

While the Minister is open to suggestions from all quarters on who might fill the two ordinary positions on the board and who might be appointed chairperson, it is best that the choice is left as wide as possible and not limited to those nominated by the bodies mentioned. The Irish Refugee Council has no statutory basis; it is a voluntary grouping of voluntary bodies. I have a high regard for the council; I have attended many of its functions and I wish it to continue its important work on behalf of asylum seekers. However, there is no guarantee it will continue to exist in the future, whether in its present form or at all.

The voluntary nature of such a body means that if it or any of its constituent bodies decide not to continue the body's existence, any legislative provision which requires the body be in existence is frustrated. Therefore it is wiser not to confer a statutory role on what is essentially a voluntary body.

I am disappointed by the Minister of State's response. She is showing continued inflexibility, insensitivity and inconsistency in this matter. She was at pains to point out at an earlier stage in the debate that it would not be necessary for the Refugee Appeals Commissioner to be a practising barrister or solicitor; rather it would be sufficient if that person had seven years experience as a barrister or solicitor and perhaps was working in the human rights field. Yet, on this specific provision relating to the person who will be doing the largest amount of work in relation to the processing of applications, the Minister of State is not prepared to include any formal qualifications or background in the Bill, other than seven years experience as a practising barrister or solicitor.

I hoped we would enter into dialogue on this Bill. However, in the course of the debate the Minister of State has put only three substantial amendments — two of them were prompted by my amendments relating to errors in the drafting of the Bill and the third, which relates to the Dublin Convention, was brought up because we debated the conflict between the Dublin Convention and the Geneva Convention. There has been no flexibility towards amendments proposed by this side of the House.

The Minister of State has not given a strong enough reason why there should not be a stipulation in the Bill that the person appointed should have experience of human rights issues. Are we to appoint somebody with no experience in this field? Are we to appoint someone who has been involved in a totally different area of activity? The Minister of State will argue that she will not make a bad decision and that may well be the case. However, there may be other Ministers who are not as au fait with these matters and who might make a wrong decision. For the sake of people who will apply for asylum, it is incumbent on us to indicate clearly that the commissioner should have human rights experience.

Apart from reading the brief supplied to her, the Minister of State has not provided the House with a compelling reason why the commissioner should not have human rights experience. The only qualification given in the First Schedule is that the person should have seven years experience as a practising barrister or solicitor. The experience might have been 20 years ago and might have been in a different field. If the Minister of State wished to show a little flexibility there would be no harm in accepting this amendment.

We have had this debate at length on other sections and, as on other issues, the Senator has done a U-turn. He argued that any solicitor or barrister could perform any legal function by reading up on it.

Practising.

For appointments to bodies such as this one has to have appropriate people in mind, otherwise the structure will not work. The desire of any Minister will be to make the commissioner and the appeals board function effectively. In doing so one will have to have regard to appropriately qualified people, of whom there are few in Ireland. The restriction the Senator wishes to include in the Bill is inappropriate and unnecessary.

The training which is critical in dealing with refugees is being provided currently and has resulted in substantial improvements in our provisions for asylum seekers. It will be made available to those persons who serve in the various capacities under this Bill. I assure the Senator that the persons appointed will be appropriate to the posts.

I have no doubt but the Minister of State will make a good choice. We wish to ensure that future appointments will be of an equally high standard. The Minister of State has said that appropriate training will be provided. This is not stated in the Bill. The person involved may exercise quasi-judicial functions. There is no provision, however, under the judicial appointments training scheme for any training for this person. None of the Minister of State's assurances is stated in the Bill. There is nothing in the bill to stipulate that the person will have a background in human rights or refugee matters.

There has been a long enough history of political cronyism and appointments by all political parties to allow for the possibility that the person appointed might not be the best qualified person — let us be honest and admit that can and does happen. I do not say it will happen but our job as good legislators is to ensure it does not. I regret that the Minister is not acceding to my request and that she has been completely inflexible about adapting or changing this basic humanitarian Bill, other than when spurred on by amendments tabled by this side of the House.

Question, "That the words proposed to be deleted stand," put and declared carried.
Amendment declared lost.
Question proposed: "That the First Schedule be the First Schedule to the Bill."

What is the thinking behind the three year period in paragraph 3 of this Schedule? I have no objection to it but the periods of State appointments vary from three to five or even seven years. The advantage of a three year period is that someone who is not suitable can be replaced more quickly, although he or she can be replaced at any time. Another argument is that this is a difficult and complex area and, since the Minister said there are not many suitably qualified people, three years might be a short period for someone to get experience in the job. Perhaps she could consider a five year period.

The section provides for reappointment and it seemed to me that in many areas of public office, being able to change people or have them continue in service at appropriate intervals is a way to provide for great efficiency. I hope that whoever takes on the job of commissioner deals with the large volume of refugee applications with dispatch. If not, there is an opportunity to rethink the appointment after three years. Equally, if the commissioner does well, there is an option to reappoint him or her. I think it is a sensible, business-like arrangement and I hope the Senator will agree.

I hope the Minister is not getting too excited——

I never get excited, least of all by Senator Mulcahy.

The Senator is flattering himself.

I thought she was a bit agitated. I said I did not have a problem with the provision but I wanted to know the rationale. As usual, the Minister did not answer my question; she did not say why the period was three years as opposed to five years. Does she not take the point that five years might be more appropriate as it would give a commissioner a decent run at the job?

Last night we had a voyage around Europe and parts of Africa; today we are doing numerology, which is fascinating. I picked three years because I thought it was the appropriate period. Other periods, such as five or seven years, were open but I picked three years for the reasons I gave.

Question put and agreed to.
SECOND SCHEDULE.

I move amendment No. 46:

In page 27, to delete lines 28 and 29, and substitute the following:

"be conversant with and have experience of human rights issues".

Question, "That the words proposed to be deleted stand," put and declared carried.
Amendment declared lost.

I move amendment No. 47:

In page 27, lines 33 and 34, to delete subparagraph (4) and substituted the following:

"(4) a person nominated by the Council of the Irish Red Cross,

(5) a person nominated by the Council of the Irish Refugee Council.".

We can only make a decision on this amendment as it has already been discussed.

I am sorry but that escaped me. Could I discuss the amendment, with the indulgence of the House? It was grouped with another amendment but we did not discuss it specifically.

Acting Chairman

The Senator was informed of this last night.

I am aware that the groupings of amendments were circulated.

Acting Chairman

I cannot allow you to discuss it now, Senator.

You are not allowing me to discuss this important amendment?

Acting Chairman

You have already been informed of the position. All I want to know is whether the amendment is being pressed.

Question, "That the words and figures proposed to be deleted stand," put and declared carried.
Amendment declared lost.

I move amendment No. 48:

In page 27, line 34, after "Affairs" to add "who are conversant with and have experience of human rights issues".

Amendment put and declared lost.

I move amendment No. 49:

In page 28, line 37, paragraph 10, to delete "3" and substitute "4".

The Minister is setting up a perfectly good appeal board and this amendment is to ensure that it is not, or is as little as possible, under the control of either the Minister for Justice or the Minister for Foreign Affairs. There are two ministerial appointees to the appeal board, one nominated by each of the Ministers mentioned. The chairman and the other two members are not officers from the Departments. As the quorum for these meetings is only three, I am concerned that two civil servants might be at a three person meeting. I am sure the civil servants present in the House would be impartial and would not be influenced by the Minister. On the other hand, it is more difficult for people to be seen to be objective if they hold a position within a Department, are nominees of a Minister and are dealing with his or her decisions.

I hope this board will work by consensus and if a majority decision is required that it will have to be by an odd number. If one of the people present is the chairman and that person normally has a casting vote, a quorum of four would be fine. I hope it would be a rare matter that would be so serious that a vote had to be called. We are dealing with a grave issue — a person may be seeking asylum because he or she is in fear of his or her life. That is why I hope the commission proceeds by consensus.

I ask the Minister to substitute "4" for "3" because the Chair may have a casting vote in these cases, which I hope will not arise too often. It does not look good that two departmental officials could decide that an appeal would be refused, notwithstanding that majority voting is involved. It also looks bad that this can happen without the chairman being present. I ask the Minister of State to accept my amendment.

I am delighted to support this amendment. The Minister will be able to pack the refugee appeals board — there will be no difficulty for her in appointing four civil servants and she also has the power to appoint the chairperson. I regret that the Minister did not respond to my amendment which sought to appoint to the board people from the Irish Red Cross or the Irish Refugee Council because it would have made it much more independent. Proceedings before the Refugee Appeal Board will be totally confidential. However, I am glad that the Minister acceded to my request that the UN High Commissioner would have observer status at the refugee board. I am glad that she took the lead from me again in that.

In seconding Senator Henry's proposal, I ask that at least some semblance of independence be given to the "two persons, not being officers of the Minister or the Minister for Foreign Affairs". By independence I mean that they should be people from outside the governmental structure. The quality of this Refugee Appeal Board should not just be dependent on the officers of the Minister and the Minister for Foreign Affairs, whom I have no doubt would be excellent people. Lest anyone would try to slip words into my mouth, I absolutely support the fact that there will be two civil servants from two different Ministers on the board. They have a vital role to play, but the role that independent people can play is equally vital.

It would be much safer and more democratic if the board was to have a quorum of four people. The reality will be that if there are three it will be possible for the chairperson, again appointed by the Minister, and the two officers to take a majority decision. To take up Senator Henry's point, there is nothing in the Bill which indicates that the Refugee Appeal Board must make its decisions by consensus. Given that there is no provision requiring the five members of the board to agree, one can visualise that there may well be divisions of opinion.

As Senator Henry said, this is a very important board. Subject to various appeals, this board might amount to the difference between the life and death, oppression or non-oppression of an individual. This is an excellent amendment and I support it wholeheartedly. I ask if the Minister could be a little more flexible than she has been thus far.

The origin of the five person board was that when the Bill was originally introduced by the Senator's own party in a previous Government, it only provided for a three person board. I had regard to the various points made to me during the debate on the original Bill asking for people of independence on the board. In order to achieve that I set out to increase the board numbers from three to five.

There were about 400 appeals or applications for asylum up to last week. That is a significant increase. While I have great sympathy with the objective Senator Henry is trying to achieve, I would refer her to section 15(2) of the Bill, which says specifically that the board has to be independent in the operation of its functions.

Senator Mulcahy talked about packing the board. I have to confess I am a great admirer of Franklin Delano Roosevelt and I recall the sticky end to which he came when he tried to pack the American Supreme Court. This is not the Supreme Court, although at times the Senator has spoken of it as though it was both the Supreme Court and the UN General Assembly rolled into one. It is a board to hear and examine an appeal against a decision of a commissioner that somebody does not qualify for refugee status.

An official of the Department of Justice is on the board — and, by the way, is subject to the same conditions of independence in section 15(2) as all other board members — because the Department of Justice has particular experience and responsibility in relation to asylum and other matters. Similarly, the Department of Foreign Affairs has a particular responsibility and experience in relation to conditions in different countries in the world from which asylum seekers are likely to come. It is extremely appropriate that an official of each Department should be on the board.

The point was made that with just the independent chairman and two officials the board might not be seen as being sufficiently independent, even though their independence is set out in the Bill. I added two more people to the board and section 4 sets out positively to answer one of the Senator's queries. It mentions "two persons, not being officers of the Minister or the Minister for Foreign Affairs." They must be independent people.

In terms of the work of the board Senator Henry's amendment would be unduly restrictive. There is a potential average of 800 applications to hear and a backlog, which at the moment amounts unfortunately to a couple of thousand because we are still waiting for many cases to be processed by the UNHCR in London. The board will need working arrangements which allow it to do its work efficiently and effectively.

I have some experience of civil servants, but there is no history of civil servants who are appointed to boards being afraid to act independently of the Minister. In terms of packing, were there no civil servants one could envisage an alternative scenario where the people appointed would be political appointees and therefore lack the independent and rigorous cast of mind that civil servants often bring to matters with which they are appointed to deal on behalf of a Minister.

In setting out the structure of the board I attempted to meet the reasonable representations which were made to me both in the Houses of the Oireachtas and by the NGO community who are concerned about this issue. We have a good working model which is not excessively bureaucratic and which will enable the board to do its job in a reasonable time frame. Although I appreciate the sentiments which Senator Henry is expressing, I am absolutely confident that this board will act according to section 15(2), be independent and act independently in reaching its decisions.

The Minister has highlighted a problem which I had not envisaged previously. She referred to civil servants on boards. The Minister can correct me if I am wrong, but it is fairly rare that civil servants are appointed to State boards or to appeal boards.

Not at all, it is a very common practice. It has generally been usual for there to be a departmental appointee on the boards which I have appointed and of which I have personal knowledge. I would have to check the figures but almost all boards have departmental nominees. The reason for that in this case is knowledge. The Department of Foreign Affairs has knowledge and experience of the political situations in the different countries from which refugees may be applying. Similarly, people in the Department of Justice have experience of asylum and immigration procedures. Those two appointments are appropriate and will assist the working of the board.

I agree with the Minister that departmental nominees are essential. There have been departmental nominees on all the boards on which I have served. As Senator Mulcahy would know, there are departmental nominees on the board of the Irish Red Cross. Although as a member of that organisation I have sympathy for his view that persons should be nominated from it and the Irish Refugee Council to the Refugee Appeal Board, there are other agencies which would consider that some of their members should also be nominated. I hope the Minister will look at bodies like the Irish Red Cross, the Irish Refugee Council, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul and bodies involved in missionary work who have done an enormous amount for refugees. I will not press the amendment but I may put it down on Report Stage. Perhaps we could do something in areas where there is no consensus. My anxiety refers to votes where the two departmental appointees may decide to refuse the appeal.

I beg to differ with the Minister with regard to civil servants on State boards. Generally there are no civil servants on the Valuation Appeals Tribunal, the Employment Appeals Tribunal and similar tribunals. A general problem is highlighted here. It is never too late to address problems. The Minister may decide a particular policy with regard to some aspect of refugee law in relation to a third country. The Minister for Justice and the Minister for Foreign Affairs will each have a civil servant on the appeal board. If the board is to exercise its functions independently, as it must do under the Bill, those civil servants will find themselves in conflict because, on the one hand, they are working for a Minister who has a policy and, on the other hand, they are officers of the Refugee Appeal Board which may find itself in potential conflict with the Minister for Justice on an issue.

Acting Chairman

Could you now please conclude? Senator Henry indicated she is withdrawing her amendment. You have made your point and I want to move on.

This is the reason the independence of civil servants on the board is protected in the Bill. If they have strong views, I would expect responsible members of the board, whether they are civil servants, to act independently. The Bill asks them to do so. What problem does Senator Mulcahy have with this?

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question proposed: "That the Second Schedule be the Second Schedule to the Bill."

I am not happy with the composition of the Refugee Appeal Board. The Minister has lost a golden opportunity to put in place a properly structured board to be the major board hearing determinations from the Refugee Appeals Commissioner. The Minister has been at pains to lecture me that there will never be any conflict or adversarial procedures in this business. However, when cases come to the board, they will, in almost all instances, be by way of appeal from the Refugee Appeal Commissioner who has refused an application for asylum status. From the beginning applicants will be in conflict with the commissioner. They will say they have been persecuted and are seeking the protection of this country under the Geneva Convention. The commissioner will say they are not entitled to such protection and there will be appeals to the board.

In earlier amendments the Minister opposed changes to the workings and procedures of the board which would have entitled an applicant to bring a witness. She said people would have an inherent right to bring witnesses or testimony in support of their cases. As usual, there are no words of comfort in the Bill in respect of bringing a witness for an applicant who is in conflict with the commissioner.

I have grave reservations about the workings of the board. I am not satisfied that we have properly decided on the confidentiality aspect with regard to whether an expertise in this area will be developed over the years. I am not satisfied that people who assist refugees will be in a position to learn from the proceedings of the board. I am disappointed with the composition of the board because there is no guarantee that any of its five members, including the chairman, will be independent of Government.

The Senator should read section 4.

The Minister can appoint a civil servant to be chairperson and civil servants to the posts outlined in paragraphs 1 (2), 1 (3) and 1 (4) of the Schedule. There is the possibility that the board, which is supposed to be independent of the Government and the commissioner, can be comprised of five officers of the Government. If this were to happen, there would be more and more appeals to the High Court and this would have the bad effect of dragging people through lengthy and expensive procedures which the board is supposed to obviate. People are supposed to come before the board knowing, believing and trusting they will get an independent hearing. I am not suggesting that, even if there were five civil servants on the board, a person would not get a fair and independent hearing. However, various dicta of the Supreme Court clearly indicate that justice must not only be done but must be seen to be done. That principle arises mainly where, for example, the relation of a judge was representing a client before that judge. As I recall, it was held by the High Court or Supreme Court that would be inappropriate in certain cases.

The problem with the Refugee Appeal Board, especially given that the Minister did not see fit to accept some of these amendments, is that there is a possibility that the board itself will not be seen to be independent of Government agencies. I am sorry if the Minister has a problem with that but I think it is a possibility and something that should be addressed.

Question put and declared carried.
THIRD SCHEDULE.
Question proposed: "That the Third Schedule be the Third Schedule to the Bill."

The Third Schedule is the Geneva Convention. I do not think we need to disagree with the Geneva Convention which is the basis of the Bill.

I am not going to speak on this.

Is the Third Schedule agreed to?

Not as structured.

Question put and declared carried.
FOURTH SCHEDULE.
Question proposed: "That the Fourth Schedule be the Fourth Schedule to the Bill."

Of course, I support the provisions of the Geneva Convention but I do not support the Minister's failure to make it absolutely clear in the Bill that the Dublin Convention is subordinate to the Geneva Convention. I am not going to raise this matter again today. However, for the record I oppose the inclusion of the Dublin Convention in this Bill in circumstances where the Minister has failed to say why it should not be clearly stated in the Bill that the Dublin Convention is subordinate to the Geneva Convention. For that reason and because there has not been a proper public debate about the implications of the Dublin Convention, I am opposing the insertion of the convention in this Bill.

I anticipate there will be a lot of litigation and tragic human cases arising from the Minister's failure to clearly insert in the Bill the relationship between the Dublin Convention and the Geneva Convention. The Minister failed the test last night. The record and the future will show that was a mistake.

Question put and declared carried.
TITLE.
Question, "That the Title be the Title to the Bill", put and declared carried.
Bill reported with amendments.

Acting Chairman

When is it proposed to take the next Stage?

Next Tuesday.

Acting Chairman

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Fianna Fáil has voted down the Geneva Convention.

We want a good Bill, not a bad one.

Will the Minister put on her Department of Foreign Affairs hat and tell me if Ireland has ratified the 1977 Protocols to the Geneva Convention? I asked this question three years ago and was told it would take time. I have not been able to find out if we have ratified them.

Acting Chairman

Can these matters be dealt with on Report Stage?

It is not relevant to the Bill; I just hoped for information.

Report Stage ordered for Tuesday, 11 June 1996.

Acting Chairman

When is it proposed to sit again?

Next Tuesday at 2.30 p.m.

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