I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Flood, to the House. I understand why the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform cannot remain with us for the debate. The House has an onerous schedule of legislation from the Department with which it must deal this week. The Minister stated he will return to the House later and give careful consideration to what has been said in the debate.
Senator Quinn stated that this Bill not only involves legal issues but also those relating to exclusion, social disadvantage and the need to deal with aspects outside the law. I recognise and support the Senator's concerns. The Minister said: "I do not pretend that the answer to our community's drug problem lies exclusively in criminal justice measures", and proceeded to talk about social exclusion. The Minister realises that while the Bill, which is part of a raft of legislation aimed at dealing with this problem, is welcome, there is far more to this issue than passing legislation. It would be superficial and glib to state that one Bill could solve the problem. However, the Bill forms part of the legal system to deal with that problem. In my view it will be an effective instrument to deal with the scourge of drugs which is a blight on our society.
Arising from the degree of concern and misery caused by drug dealing, the law must be stronger than it might otherwise be in terms of the curtailment or circumscription of civil liberties. The Bill fulfils the test in terms of striking a balance between civil liberties and the need to deal with drug dealing. It must be remembered that there is prior right in respect of this kind of legislation, namely, the right of the citizen to live in freedom under the law and that citizen's right to life. The term "right to life" has certain connotations which I do not wish to raise during this debate. In the context of the Bill, we are discussing the rights of citizens to live freely without being subjected to the scourge of drugs. As already stated, the Bill passes the test in that regard.
As the Minister indicated, the Bill forms part of a package to deal with the supply of and demand for drugs. We rely on the authorities at sea, the Garda and customs officers to restrict the supply of drugs. We must also consider the question of common security at European level and we will deal with this in debates on the Amsterdam Treaty and the enlargement of the European Union. However, the EU has a definite role to play in dealing with this matter.
One of the issues which arose on the Order of Business in recent weeks was whether it would be reasonable to legalise cannabis or, in certain circumstances, heroin. I believe that such substances should not be legalised. The more communication I have with gardaí and experts working in this area the more I am convinced that cannabis and Ecstasy should not be legalised. I am advised that cannabis is more carcinogenic than cigarettes and account must also be taken of the drug's side effects. It has reached the point where people in America are being injured at work on Monday mornings because of the residual effects of cannabis in their systems. I do not subscribe to the view that any of these substances should be legalised with one possible exception, namely, the use of heroin for terminally ill patients under controlled conditions in hospitals. I am sure this suggestion can be given consideration and could be prescribed within law.
Another matter of concern is the possession of drugs for one's own use or the point at which the amount of a substance in one's possession cannot be considered to be for one's own use. I am subject to correction by the Minister but I understand that a person currently found in possession of substances for their own use must be convicted three times before a custodial sentence is handed down. I believe wider discretion should be granted in this area and the courts should be given the power to impose custodial sentences in cases where they have been advised of a person's background.
Before dealing with the detail of the Bill, I am concerned about the expertise of the Garda Síochána and the force's ability to deal with drugs. I am aware that its capacity has been greatly increased in recent years and that it has wider expertise and intelligence capabilities. The force is now in a good position to deal with the problem. However, from my contacts in the Garda Síochána, I also understand that in a typical town such as Newbridge two young plain clothes gardaí may be involved in the control of drugs on the ground. They get to know who are the dealers and users and build up contacts in the community but, due to lack of resources, etc., they are moved on after a number of months. That does not strike me as a good use of manpower or the intelligence accumulated over a period. It is also my understanding that ten years ago there might have been two people dealing drugs in a typical rural town with a population of 10,000, whereas there are now 25 people involved in such activity. It is obvious that there is a greater need for the gardaí to involve themselves in the control and detection of drug dealing and securing convictions against those involved. Much knowledge has been built up in this area.
The question of mandatory sentencing, the effect this would have on civil liberties and the discretion, or lack thereof, given to the courts is at issue in this Bill. Given the gravity of the offences involved it is prudent to adopt the approach taken in the Bill and to put in place mandatory sentences. It is not true to say that the courts are given no discretion under the terms of the Bill because section 5(3C) refers to exceptional and specific circumstances and later sections deal with the reviewing of sentences at mid-term under certain specified conditions. There is a degree of discretion involved but, on balance, because of the severity of the matters with which we are dealing, it is in order to employ mandatory sentencing. A minimum of ten years on conviction is appropriate because the offence we are dealing with is nothing less than murder.
On a radio programme this morning reference was made to a Christmas tree in a community in Dublin's inner city. Over 100 stars have been placed on the tree to indicate the number of people who have died as a result of drug abuse. In the past year the number has risen from 80 to over 100 which is an indication of the devastation exacted on a city community. In that context, drug dealing should be seen as murder and the minimum sentence of ten years is entirely appropriate. Likewise, I welcome the provision relating to the confiscation of assets whereby there is an automatic determination of the benefit accruing to a convicted criminal.
With regard to the market value of drugs and the sum of £10,000 to which Senator Quinn and others referred, I have a number of difficulties with this part of the Bill. Where is the market and what is their price? Under the terms of the Bill, a garda, a customs officer or an expert in the area will be able to suggest what is the market value of drugs. However, from sources in the Garda Síochána, I am aware that the market value of drugs in Dublin's inner city is different to that in a rural town. In other words, drugs which might cost £200 in Dublin may cost £400 in a rural area. How does one objectively assess the market value? What is the difference between so-called hard and soft drugs? I understand cannabis dealers are making more money from their activities than their counterparts who deal in hard drugs, such as heroin.
It is invidious to put financial parameters on misery but, nevertheless, it would appear that £10,000 worth of cannabis may produce a far greater benefit to the criminal than £10,000 worth of heroin, although I am open to correction. I understand the going market rate for one kilogram of cannabis is approximately £10,000. That is a large amount of cannabis. While I understand the reason for a figure, different circumstances pertain to hard and soft drugs. Perhaps that is a matter which should be looked at.
Senator Quinn was right when he said the people at the top walk away while the dealers lower down the line are caught and convicted. These are sophisticated people and have sophisticated advice and technology available to them. They know the law. What will happen as a result of this measure is that consignments will be spilt up into half kilograms or whatever to minimise the risk of being convicted on the basis of the £10,000 threshold. I envisage some difficulties in this area and will be interested to hear the Minister's comments at the conclusion of Second Stage.
I have dealt with the question of the ten years and the specification on the minimum period. I have reservations about section 5(3G) on the review of a sentence on the basis of a person being addicted. Would it be open to a person to say they were an addict if convicted of a crime and jailed on the basis that it would lead to a review of the sentence? I assume it is done on the basis of an objective assessment by experts in the area. I also wonder about the prudence of dealing with addiction in that way. I understand that victims of drug dealing are drawn into dealing as a result of being addicted. They become totally locked into a system and are used by the drug barons who walk away.
I would like to draw an analogy in this regard. I do not believe it would be regarded as mitigating circumstances if an alcoholic driving home one evening knocked a person down and killed them. Are two different standards being applied? That is a matter which the Minister might address in his remarks. I have a slight reservation that perhaps we are applying a different standard to different cases. It is as unacceptable for an alcoholic to drive a car and kill somebody as it is for an addict to peddle drugs and kill somebody.
I refer to the power to exclude the public from trials. The point was made that in cases involving children in the children's court which do not relate to drugs and where sensitive evidence is being taken, there are prudent and good reasons trials should be held in camera and there should be no subsequent reporting. I assume the courts will exercise reasonable discretion as regards excluding the public from trials and that, by and large, this rule will not be applied. However, I envisage circumstances where because of the sensitivity of the evidence and the fact it might prevent charges being laid against other people or convictions being secured, there might be good grounds for not holding cases in public. By and large, I suspect the Judiciary will take the view that it is better not to exclude the public.
I noted a recent case where people were asked by the judge to leave the curtilage of the court and to move a certain distance from the court. In circumstances where it is decreed that the court should be cleared during a trial, perhaps we should include the curtilage of the court as well as the court itself. However, that is a technical matter. I emphasise that I am not a lawyer but one of that happy band of people who do not belong to the legal profession. It sometimes strikes me that it, like farming and other commercial activity, is an industry in itself. I sometimes wonder whether the law is for lawyers or for the administration of justice, but that is by way of an aside and I am sure the legal profession will be able to counter quite magnificently on its own behalf when it is its turn.
The provision under which a person may be remanded to appear at a court which is near the prison in which he or she is being held is welcome. As someone who travels regularly up and down the dual carriageway from Kildare, it strikes me as ludicrous to have daily circuses with blue lights in front, behind and amidships bringing people from Portlaoise prison to the centre of Dublin, adding to the gridlock. I do not understand why it is not possible to deal with some of these matters locally. Why must everything gravitate to the middle of Dublin city when matters could be dealt with locally?
We must accept that criminals have access to the latest modern technology. They are sophisticated people dealing in death at a sophisticated level in a business sense. The State must apply the same level of sophistication to the way it deals with these people. Criminals and their wellheeled advisers should not be able to find loopholes in legislation passed by these Houses. It should stand the test of time. The Seanad has almost always improved legislation initiated here. I recall when the Environmental Protection Agency Act, a large Bill, went through the House. It was considerably improved by amendments tabled and accepted in this House. I hope this legislation will be improved as well.
The certificate of evidence applies to the custody of exhibits so it is not so broadly drawn as to raise questions about civil liberties. I reemphasise the point made on the amount of Garda time frequently spent on administrative detail in court. It is important gardaí are released to deal with the situation on the streets and to combat crime.
Legislation was passed earlier this year which allows the use of seized assets to fund anti-drug programmes, which is welcome. My colleague, Deputy O'Donnell, as Justice spokesperson in the Dáil during the last Administration attempted to amend earlier legislation to allow for this. At the time it was described as cosmetic rubbish by Deputy Dukes. That was not good enough. Eventually, last summer before the House rose the matter was rectified, which I welcome. A measure which was out of the question ten months earlier became possible as we faced a general election. I hope this legislation achieves the objective everybody in the House would want and that it will help to put those responsible for this trade in misery away for a long time so they will not be able to peddle their goods on the street.