Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 1 Jul 1998

Vol. 156 No. 8

Murphy Report: Statements.

Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation (Dr. McDaid)

I thank the Cathaoirleach and Members of Seanad Éireann for this opportunity to address the House on the outcome of the independent inquiry into matters relating to child sexual abuse.

As Members will be aware, the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Tourism, Sport and Recreation discussed the report of the inquiry on 17 June 1998 and decided its full contents would be annexed to the committee's interim report on the subject of child protection in sport for submission to each House of the Oireachtas in order to facilitate immediate discussions on the implementation of the interim report's recommendations with the responsible Ministers and Ministers of State and to enable Members of each House and interested parties to submit their observations to the committee for consideration in the context of its final report. I understand observations are being sought by 29 July 1998.

Members will be aware the Government decided on 10 February 1998 that the independent inquiry would be carried out by Dr. Roderick Murphy, Chairman of the Chartered Institute of Arbitrators. The Government's decision to set up the inquiry arose directly out of concern, particularly among the swimming community, following criminal proceedings in relation to abuse by two swimming coaches. Members will be familiar with the terms of reference given to Dr. Murphy.

The inquiry heard evidence for almost three months from more than 70 witnesses, of whom 20 were swimmers, 12 were parents, seven were coaches, ten were officers of the IASA, nine were officers of the Leinster branch, 12 were officers and committee members of the named clubs and nine were professionals in the area, namely, psychologists, social workers, lawyers and academics. Some witnesses attended in dual capacity as parents and members of club committees or of the branch or association. Some swimmers gave evidence of their experience both as swimmers and as coaches. In addition, the inquiry undertook investigative work and the examination of a large number of documents, papers and correspondence from the IASA and the clubs and school most directly concerned covering, in particular, the period from 1985 to 1995.

Dr. Murphy was assisted in this work by Ms Fidelma Macken, SC, who acted as counsel to the inquiry and Ms Mary Cooney, Chief State Solicitor's Office, who acted as solicitor to the inquiry. The report was presented to me on 27 May 1998 by Dr. Murphy. The inquiry's report is broad ranging, thorough and forward looking. It is especially detailed in relation to the way in which complaints were dealt with in the swimming organisation and the procedures in place at different levels. The report provides a comprehensive list of recommendations, the majority of which relate to the Irish Amateur Swimming Association of the sport in Ireland.

The IASA was given a copy of the inquiry report on 17 June 1998 and was requested to give it urgent and immediate consideration. On Monday, 22 June, I received the executive council's initial response. This response includes the association's proposed strategy for implementation of the report's recommendations. I have indicated to the association that I am anxious they complete their proposed consultations with their wider membership who, I believe, must be satisfied as to the adequacy of procedures and arrangements in place in their organisation to secure a safe environment for its younger members.

On 27 June 1998 the president of the IASA announced the association has appointed a "Change Management" team and expert advice has been sought. The association has engaged a team of professionals who will look at the sport of swimming from top to bottom and, drawing on the recommendations of the Murphy report, prepare a new structure for the sport in Ireland. The president went on to say that over the coming months, consultations will be held with all the branches of the association to gather opinions and ideas as to how this proposed change can be best achieved.

I welcome this commitment to wider consultation and am convinced that only by involving all members at every level can confidence be restored in the sport of swimming in Ireland. Although the report makes no specific reference to the code of ethics and good practice for children's sport in Ireland, I have requested Dr. Breda McLeavey, chairperson of the expert committee which drew up the code in 1996, to reconvene the committee to review its contents in the light of the report of the inquiry. I am pleased to say that the reconvened committee held its first meeting last Friday.

In addition, the Irish Sports Council, in conjunction with the National Coaching and Training Centre, has begun planning a seminar for later this year for national governing bodies of sport. The purpose is to ensure the widest dissemination among sports organisations of the inquiry's recommendations, the outcome of the review of the code of ethics, the findings of the Joint Oireachtas Committee and, most of all, to underline once again the importance of ensuring the protection of its younger members.

A number of recommendations in the report relate to the areas of responsibility of other Departments. In particular, Dr. Murphy makes recommendations regarding the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act, mandatory reporting of child abuse and education and training programmes for the establishment and verification of child sexual abuse.

Ultimately and most importantly, the recommendations of the Murphy report are a matter for the IASA and all its members, each of whom must now engage in the process of addressing the issues raised in the report. It is now also timely for all governing bodies of sport to reflect upon the lessons learnt from this most unhappy episode and to ensure our children may participate in a safe, secure and positive sporting environment in the future. I thank Senators for their attention and look forward to hearing their views on this most important issue for sport in Ireland.

Mr. McDonagh

First, I wish to express my deepest sympathy to the victims of sexual abuse in swimming, their parents and families. The terrible pain suffered by so many young children as they partook in the great sport of swimming will last long after this discussion and others on this subject subside. The hurt caused and its repercussions are frightening in the extreme.

I pay tribute to Dr. Murphy for researching this issue and producing a report on it. The report is hugely disturbing outlining, as it does, the most appalling litany of physical and psychological abuse in swimming over the past 25 years. One of the saddest things is that children did not come forward to complain as they felt the abuse was part of a normal training routine. The children, their parents and families have been betrayed by people who stood in loco parentis. The role of someone acting in loco parentis is very special and vitally important and the crucial ingredients in it are loyalty and sincerity. Nobody is entitled to abuse that privilege. I have spent all my working life as a teacher acting in loco parentis both inside and outside the classroom. In the heat of the current debate, it would be remiss of me not to pay tribute to the many people, teachers, coaches, voluntary helpers and so on who have stood in loco parentis and displayed the utmost professionalism and care. This should not be forgotten when we speak of the minority of people who have abused their positions of trust.

My fear is that the terrible revelations of the Murphy report will lead to great difficulty in finding volunteers to coach young people in sport. All of us who are involved in education and sport realise the huge importance of the voluntary worker. As a result of these terrible revelations people may be inclined to cast an eye at the genuine people working in the voluntary sector. That would be a great shame as team coaches and leaders have given great service over the years. Many will now be worried that their work with young people may be misconstrued. That would be tragic. The vast majority of volunteers have given their time generously and unselfishly. They have contributed enormously to the development of thousands of young people in various sports. I salute those people and their efforts.

As a teacher and as a club and county administrator for the GAA, I am disappointed at the lack of interest shown by parents in the extra curricular activities undertaken by their children. Again and again parents let other people look after their children. Often volunteers call at houses where there are two or three cars yet they have to bring children to matches and training sessions at their own expense. The parents do not even bother to turn up to support their children. Parents have an important role to play in extra curricular activities for their children. If parents had been more involved some of these terrible problems which are surfacing now would have been noticed and would have been stopped much earlier and a great deal of trauma and tragedy for young children would have been prevented. People involved in coaching and training young people need support. I hope parents will now come forward and become involved in the extra curricular activities of their own children. They will experience a great deal of joy in participating with their children.

This report suggests there is something rotten in swimming. There is a serious lack in our system of child protection. Strict criteria must be laid down for those involved in training. It is a difficult time for the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation but the onus is on him to see that this never occurs again in any sport. Parents have a role to play — they must continue to monitor their children's involvement in various out-of-school activities. There must be a system of mandatory reporting and stipulations as laid down within the context of the Health and Safety Act must be brought into force and adhered to.

Rumours were widespread over the last number of years. Complaints were made to the Irish Amateur Swimming Association but they all fell on deaf ears for some time. Is the Murphy report too little too late? The truth about this scandal is that nobody wanted to know because many of these coaches were good at their jobs. It appears structures were weak, confused and undemocratic. Trust is not enough anymore. We must react to any hint that something might be wrong. The consequences are so terrible that rumours must be given serious consideration. There is no smoke without fire.

The compulsion of the people who commit these crimes is seemingly based on low self esteem and to alleviate this, they find a way to dominate others. The easiest target is young children. This raises questions about the society in which we live. Is there a link between pornography and sex crimes? Are we as parents, teachers, guardians and instructors informing our children correctly about relationships and sexuality? Where are we going wrong? Are we going wrong? What can be done? Owing to a change in social attitudes, are we now witnessing a clean out of a backlog of sexual criminality?

There is no structure in place in the present system to rehabilitate sex offenders. They are becoming a major problem for society. Sex crime is an issue which we must deal with in a special way. As the truth seeps out, reactions to changing trends are not enough. Something concrete must be done about these atrocities. I hope the Minister will establish structures which will bring credibility back to the great sport of swimming in this State. My sympathy is with the Minister. He has worked hard and this is a difficult time for him. He has the support of everyone in the State. I am confident he will respond in a positive manner and the type of revelations which have come to the fore in recent times will be consigned to history and will never again surface in a country which prides itself on being a nation of saints and scholars.

Mr. Moylan

I welcome the Minister to the House to give us an opportunity to put our feelings on the record.

I wish to express deep sympathy for all the unfortunate victims of this desperate crime. I compliment Dr. Murphy and his team for their thorough report. Of all the reports I have read, it is the most frightening.

However, before we condemn people we must compliment the many volunteers who have given their time over many years to the coaching and promotion of sport. Credit is due to them and they must feel sad when they read about what happened in one organisation.

I have been involved with the GAA for many years and one wonders how this could have gone on in any organisation. It saddens me that any organisation would have allowed a system to exist such as that which was in place in the IASA. Some parents have looked on sporting organisations almost as childminding services and were happy that their children were being cared for without getting involved themselves. Other parents saw fit not to accept assurances and got involved themselves to see what was going on in the organisation. Had more parents done that they would have taken corrective steps even if the relevant organisation was not moving in that direction.

The Minister is to be complimented for the stand he took. I have heard many people trying to do him down. He withdrew funding from the IASA before he had the Murphy report and took action to ensure that the taxpayer would not fund the organisation to carry on as it had been doing. We have a Minister who will ensure that any organisation which is not abiding by the rules will suffer the consequences.

It is very important that children have a safe environment. It is frightening and sickening to read in the report of how young children between the ages of 8 and 12 were molested. It should not happen and I hope the Minister and all concerned will take whatever steps are necessary to ensure that the perpetrators stand trial and serve time for injustices they have done to many children. The memories of these crimes will never leave the children, their parents and families.

The Joint Committee on Sport and Recreation heard submissions from many organisations. Listening to those submissions one would have thought that safety precautions were in place. However, the Murphy report highlights the fact that if rules were written they were not implemented and there was no proper supervision.

The Murphy report is an excellent and sad report which pinpoints the problems in the IASA. I hope that the report and its recommendations will not gather dust. I appeal to all sporting organisations, even those who have not experienced problems, to take the necessary steps to ensure that a situation like this can never arise again. Organisations which are dealing with young and vulnerable children should ensure that at no time is one person left with the responsibility for coaching and training young people.

In the past parents trusted so many people with their children and thank God there are many excellent coaches in different sporting organisations. However, it is sad and sickening to read of what went on. I appeal to the Minister to take whatever steps are necessary to ensure that those responsible face justice, even if they have left the organisations and the country. We often talk of serious crimes but nothing could compare with the crime of molesting and abusing innocent young children.

I compliment those parents who had the courage to take on the management and hierarchy in the IASA. I also compliment those coaches and former athletes who are prepared to speak out about what should happen in that organisation. I compliment and thank the Minister for the way he dealt with this report once he became aware of the problems in the IASA and I trust that other sporting organisations will not face the same problems in the future. Rules appear to be in place. However, I hope they are not confined to headquarters but are followed in each branch of these organisations. They must ensure that codes of conduct and practice are properly adhered to right down to the junior ranks of each organisation. The Murphy report is an emotive and sad report and the Minister has outlined the steps he intends to take. I hope we have seen the last of these practices and that they will never be repeated.

Mr. O'Toole

I compliment Roderick Murphy, Fidelma Macken and Mary Cooney for producing this report which must have been emotionally draining, painful and sickening. I have not read the report nor do I intend to do so as I cannot read this kind of report anymore. However, I read the recommendations and the newspaper coverage.

I am not happy with this debate nor the overall commentary and I am sickened that this is being confined to the IASA. In this report, we are reaping the whirlwind of decades of neglect. Since 1987 I have raised the need for sex education programmes such as stay safe and for mandatory reporting. I received pledges from this Government and the previous one on the latter issue. The report states that a child went to a priest indicating what was happening to her and the priest sent her back to the official. That is a classic example of why there should be a properly structured mandatory reporting mechanism so that it would be known what was to be reported and to whom and how it would be dealt with. Section 10 of the IASA's code of practice states that a parent with a problem should approach an official. That is a mistake and should not be allowed. There should be proper structures and functions in place.

This is not the eleventh hour but the first on this issue. We are dealing with paedophilia and with people who are predatory, manipulative, who gain trust and confidence and who are clever. We should remember that children sought help and did not receive it and that they thought the abuse was part of their training. The Minister has been criticised for taking a stand on issues such as sex education and the stay safe programme. There seems to be a vested interest to stop children finding out what should not be done to them. There are people in both Houses of the Oireachtas who have blocked progress towards helping children through safety programmes. While the issue is not just about putting structures in place, they are important and certain recommendations in the report should become rules, such as a coach not being on his or her own with a child in a place where the child is in a state of semi-undress.

I started teaching in 1967 and, on my first day teaching, an enlightened principal gave me the advice that I should never be on my own with one of the children. People were aware at that time of the need for safety, so what has been done in the meantime? Why is it that every time I raise the issue of mandatory reporting, people give a million reasons it cannot be done. People in this Government, the previous one and their colleagues expressed grave reservations. When are we going to protect children?

Every argument I have heard against mandatory reporting has been an argument about professionalism. There is nothing in this area which cannot be adequately dealt with. When I mention mandatory reporting I do not mean an open conduit for every bit of tittle tattle, gossip and mischievous chat. Instead, I have in mind a properly structured reporting system where it is decided what should be reported and to whom. It does not necessarily have to be to the director of community care or the Garda; it could be a brand new structure. We need systems of investigation which we trust and upon which we can depend.

Professionals need to be protected. Medical doctors have raised problems about client confidentiality regarding adults. Every one of their problems can be dealt with. For example, it is not necessary that reporting should be mandatory in the case of disclosure by an adult of something which happened to them many years earlier. Every objection I have heard from professionals in the area of mandatory reporting can be dealt with.

Members of the House should grasp the nettle on issues such as mandatory reporting, sex education and the stay safe programme. When local "do-gooders" stop children from learning about themselves, their bodies, how they should be careful and how to stay safe, we should tell them to get wise and to let our children come first. We in the INTO have been dealing with the issue for many years. We put together a code of practice to guide teachers and we circulated it to parents and sporting organisations, many of which have drawn from it.

It is a mistake to believe that the discussion should be confined to the IASA. This is a discussion about any situation in which children are cared for, coached or taught by adults. One thing is certain: there are thousands of well meaning and decent people involved in sporting organisations who do superb and fantastic work for children and parents. Many of them now feel they are under a cloud because paedophiles find their way into the narrowest area of trust and confidence and abuse it.

We must be clear about what happened. Children were taken out of their beds at 4.30 in the morning to go for swimming practice at 5 a.m. These were unreal and unearthly hours during which they were vulnerable and they arrived at school hours later still shell shocked having been up all those hours. It was an unnatural life. One of the reasons for it is that we did not and do not have enough swimming pools to develop the sport. The issue of a 50 metre pool is also part of this.

Regarding thanking parents for being brave enough to take on the issue of the child abuse, we should remember that parents have a responsibility to do so. It is those who came through the system, such as Gary O'Toole and others, and who, as young, raw, inexperienced and immature people, tried to take them on and failed who are the heroes as far as I am concerned. I am delighted parents took action and they deserve our support. The bad treatment they received was extraordinary. I remember during a discussion on this issue on the radio hearing one parent saying that one of the paedophiles in question had such charisma, influence and authority, that he could change everyone's mood by a few sentences or comments, they could give them a lift or leave them feeling down. These are smart people and they must be closely observed.

Parents must remember that education is a holistic process and that it is about the development of all aspects of children. It happens repeatedly that, when a child is seen to have an extraordinary talent, the parental interest can focus solely on that to the point of mania. While parents should try to develop the talent, they should not lose sight of the protection of their children and the fact that all situations must be safe. To this end, measures such as mandatory reporting must be introduced.

The report of the group working with the Minister of State, Deputy Fahey, should be published and its recommendations implemented. If someone tries to talk us out of it, we should remember that sex education should be a right for children, not an add-on. All children have a constitutional right to education in all its aspects and sex education is not excluded. Programmes such as stay safe should be available to all children. While it almost is, it has been a hard struggle for the INTO, the parents' groups and the Catholic school managers who supported it to get it implemented. We received great support from the then Minister for Education, Deputy O'Rourke, who cleared obstacles to get it up and running.

This is not the eleventh hour of this issue nor is it just about the swimming association. It is about children being cared for in a safe environment, whether it be schools, hospitals, swimming pools, changing rooms or showers. Wherever it is, it is important there are codes of practice by which people abide.

Mr. Lanigan

I am glad we have the opportunity to make statements on the Murphy report because it is important its contents be brought out into the open. What Senator O'Toole said is correct; we are not just focusing on the IASA. The report also brings into the public arena the trouble which can befall people who become involved in amateur sports and the abuse of the trust placed in such people by parents and children.

I have been involved in many sporting organisations and I do not think anyone could spend his youth or early adulthood in sport and not have a sexual approach made to him or her. This is true for all sports. There have always been people who try to use children in a sexual way. They become involved in sport because of their sexual obsession with young people and use sporting activity as a cover.

A major scandal occurred in British swimming which was featured in a programme on Channel 4 some weeks ago. Young girls on the brink of being picked for the British Olympic swimming team were abused by coaches. The stories told by these young girls match the stories of our young swimmers. Young swimmers are more vulnerable than other children because they spend so much time in a state of partial undress. They are dedicated athletes who often get up at 4 a.m. to train for four or five hours. A 50 metre pool would solve none of the problems associated with swimming. A niece of mine was an outstanding swimmer who was a state champion and was placed fifth in the US Olympic trials. She used to get up a 3.30 a.m. from the age of seven until she won a swimming scholarship to university. When I stayed in my brother's house in the US I would meet her coming back from a four hour training session before school when I was getting up. That is crazy. These young swimmers suffer physical damage and are old before their time.

I am glad the Murphy report has been published. It shows us what can happen to vulnerable young people. Abuse of this sort has happened in every sport and in other areas of Irish life. We read every day of the abuse of children and it is good that this issue is now being debated openly. Abuse will not be eliminated but people must be aware of the danger. There is possibly less abuse in sport than in other areas of life.

Senator O'Toole spoke of his difficulty in reading the report. I know of people who became physically sick when they had to take dictation of accounts of sexual abuse of children. Victims of paedophilia have been left incapable of reaching a healthy and normal adulthood. It is horrific to realise what people have suffered in the name of sport, religion and education. This problem must be addressed and the publication of the Murphy report will help to do that. The report should be sent to every house and school in Ireland. It is unfortunate that Members of the Oireachtas had to apply for copies of the report. It should have been circulated to Members immediately and automatically. Everyone involved with children should be obliged to read it.

The IASA stands utterly condemned but we must remember that thousands of excellent people provide instruction in swimming. When I was younger I was involved in teaching water safety. The Irish Red Cross and the National Safety Council have done tremendous work teaching and promoting water safety. There has never been any suggestion that these organisations have been involved in anything improper. Not all volunteers involved in youth sporting activity should be tarred with the same brush.

I cannot overstate the amount of good work done by voluntary workers who help our children grow to adulthood in a proper and healthy manner. There are some who abuse their role. Some coaches have behaved in a manipulative and plausible way. They have been able to present their version of events in a way which children who have suffered abuse cannot. When children reported abuse to the IASA they were ignored. Officials of the IASA resorted to legal language in dismissing the children's claims. The victims were made to believe that the coaches themselves were being victimised. Children came to believe they were abusing the perpetrators of the abuse.

I heard these reports at a certain stage and I now wish I had spoken about what I heard. I thought this happened all the time and was part of growing up but many children were badly affected by what happened. I am not convinced that mandatory reporting of sexual abuse will help. However, I am sure that we must publicise the fact that there are evil people who abuse young children. The more we do that the better. We will never be rid of this problem because paedophiles exist and are waiting to pounce. We must be ever more vigilant in monitoring them to ensure they are kept away from the vulnerable children whom we hope will grow into reasonable, balanced adults.

Mr. O'Dowd

Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire chuig an díospóireacht tábhachtach atá ar siúl sa Seanad inniú. Tá súil agam go dtiocfaidh rudaí an-mhaith as an díospóireacht.

This is an extremely important debate. I congratulate Dr. Murphy and his team who compiled the report and who spent so much time examining the issues involved. I also wish to sympathise with the victims of this abuse and with their parents and families. What happened to these young people was a tragedy. It is a tragedy that also happens in other sports, as other Members have said, and we must do something about it now.

I am a former president of Drogheda swimming club. The parents who run that club are exceptionally dedicated to and involved with young people. They have a proactive attitude to the sport. Both children and parents must attend the club's sessions every Wednesday and Friday night. Parents who are not members of the club are involved in all aspects of running it. There is a rota for parents to supervise the dressing rooms when the children are using them.

It is most important that parents are involved in all sporting organisations which cater for young people. The parents need not necessarily be members of the clubs involved. If parents are involved and assist in training, I am happy. I would not be happy with any other arrangement. As parents, we cannot abdicate our responsibilities and leave it to others to rear our children and to train them in sports. We cannot afford that risk. It has been shown time and again that good coaches in various sports — obviously a small number of them — abuse children. As Senator Lanigan said, the child believes he or she is wrong, not the person who is abusing them. That is the core of the problem.

There must be a proper system of training for coaches in all sports. That might be a useful role for the vocational education committees since they already have a role in youth and sports funding. They should have a more dynamic involvement with sport. There should be basic essential courses which must be completed by anybody who wishes to coach a child and the vocational education committees could run them.

Coaches should also be psychologically assessed before they are given access to children. A small number of these highly committed people will abuse children and we cannot afford that risk. If I wished to become the best coach in children's soccer, football or swimming, I would have no problem attending such courses or undergoing such assessment. I would understand why they were necessary. Obviously, the Oireachtas cannot legislate for this but it could be more active in setting down criteria for coaches in all sports. The 99 per cent of coaches who are fantastically dedicated to helping young people in sport would be happy with such an arrangement, as would parents. The coaches and children would be fulfilled and the community would be healthier for it. I join my colleague, Senator McDonagh, in praising the role of voluntary workers in the community.

We must legislate for tougher prison sentences for people who are guilty of these heinous crimes. The age of innocence is gone. Children are no longer brought up in a happy and healthy environment, as was the case when most Members of this House were children. Now we must warn our children about sexual abuse as soon as they can speak. We must tell them to be careful who they talk to and who they go home with when they are outside the home. Childhood now is dangerous and much abused and I regret that. However, it is necessary to teach our children these things as soon as they can speak. We must educate them about this abuse.

Some Members referred to pornography, sex lines and so forth. There are sick people in the community but one does not need to access a sex line to get involved in pornography, particularly over the Internet. The new technology facilitates what is called a "net meeting" where one can dial, for the price of a local call, many hundreds of people throughout the world. One can see and talk to these people by using video technology. It is a fantastic technology but it is being abused.

Any young person who can use the keyboard of a computer can get into a net meeting and encounter all types of perversion and weird people. These people state clearly what they want. One ends up seeking callers who are seeking "clean chat only". Only then is one sure that one can have a healthy, normal conversation. There is a great deal of abnormality on the Internet but one cannot legislate against it. One can only educate one's children to use the technology wisely. It is sad that this wonderful technology can be so easily and readily abused.

Tougher prison sentences for sex abuse crimes are essential. Taking the innocence of a child or young person in this way is a heinous crime. There should be mandatory tough sentences for such crimes. I have no problem with the imposition of 20 years imprisonment on such offenders. We must be harsh on them and not give them an inch. If they have abused our children, they should not get out of prison until they are extremely old. We must show them that we mean business and that if they cross the line, they will pay a heavy price. There must be no doubt about our seriousness in this regard.

I listened to a radio discussion about a parent who was extremely concerned about what was happening in the Irish Amateur Swimming Association. I was aghast at the self-doubt and worry she had to endure. However, she persisted in telling other parents what was happening. That parent did a fantastic job for the children of this country and for the sports in which they are involved. She is the type of person who should be running these organisations, although she would probably be reluctant to take on the job.

The Irish Amateur Swimming Association failed the children who were members of the association. It did not protect them for a variety of reasons. The association should disband. As a parent I no longer have confidence in it, no matter what plans or ideas it has for the future. Its members should go and somebody such as Gary O'Toole and the parent I mentioned earlier should be asked to set up a new association to generate a new start for swimming and for young people. There must be a clean break with the past. If I were a member of the association's executive, I would be happy with such a solution. I would prefer to be finished with the old scene. It is time for change and for people such as Gary O'Toole to assume leadership positions. That would be the happiest outcome.

The Minister does not have legal powers over the association although he has financial power. The bottom line, however, is that it is time for the association to go and for the establishment of a new association with new members, particularly those who have been through the mill and who stood up and made sacrifices for all children involved in swimming. It is thanks to them that this report was compiled and gave rise to this important and timely debate.

Dr. Henry

I am glad Senator O'Toole and Senator Lanigan spoke as they did because I will not be part of any uisce faoin talamh in this debate. This is an extremely serious matter which extends far beyond the Irish Amateur Swimming Association.

I was involved in establishing the sexual assault unit in the Rotunda Hospital about 15 years ago. When it was established we expected adult rape victims to be brought to the unit. However, within six weeks it was flooded with children. Teachers and social workers were bringing them to this unit because there was nowhere else to bring them. The Minister will be well aware that within a few years the situation was so serious that we had to open units in Crumlin and Temple Street Children's Hospital. We now have special clinics in other parts of the country as well.

Child sexual abuse is a terrible problem here. Senator O'Dowd was more gently reared than I. I was reared gently but I have had to work in a rougher medium. The home can be one of the most dreadful places for some children. Is anyone reading the media reports of incest cases? God bless Senator Moylan's innocent Irish heart when he hoped we would not have another case like this. Five years ago we debated the Kilkenny incest case. At the time I said I wished we had taken a little more notice of the Kilkenny incest case dating back about 25 years where a 14 year old girl who had borne her father a child was murdered a year later when she refused to have sexual intercourse with him. If we took a little more notice of all these reports we might get somewhere. But we will not get anywhere because we will not take any notice of what is going on and we will not take any notice of this report.

Dr. Murphy has produced an excellent report and he is to be commended. So are all those who have been courageous enough to testify at the committee because reliving these experiences must have been dreadful for them. I accept Senator Lanigan's point that for those who have to work on such cases it is a very harrowing experience because you see people reliving the trauma they experienced when they were 11 or 12 years old.

A very important part of this report is the fact that the children did not know whether the abuse was right or wrong. Senator O'Toole correctly mentioned that there should not be any objections to the stay safe programmes. When these programmes were introduced people said there would be children reporting their fathers; imagine saying that would be wrong. They should have said that it would have been shocking that fathers, uncles or any other person were abusing children. Unfortunately, this abuse dates back to biblical times and it is forbidden in the Book of Leviticus. Why do we think this is extraordinary now? We have to do something about it so that lives will not be totally destroyed. These cases are reported in the media now but in the past they were not taken.

After I spoke about the first Kilkenny incest case a reporter from The Irish Times informed me that he remembered debating whether they would report the case; thankfully they did. Such cases were not reported at that time but they happened. Society has not changed very much but now we know a great deal more and knowledge obliges us to do something.

The IASA aspect of this scandal is very serious. I know there were many people involved on a voluntary basis at committee level in both the IASA and Leinster branch who, whatever about their legal responsibilities, did not feel they had any moral obligation to do anything. In chapter 11, summary of findings, recommendation 2.12, page 122, it states:

The President of the IASA in 1992 had been told at the end of 1991 by a senior swimmer of complaints that the first coach was in serious trouble for molesting young children. The senior swimmer requested that the President organise a meeting at which the gardaí would be present. The President took legal advice. No meeting took place.

No one denies this happened. This man was told that a coach was molesting young children and nothing happened. What kind of moral responsibility did he have? I presume the term "senior swimmer" refers to the very courageous Gary O'Toole.

Recommendation 2.13 states:

The honorary treasurer of the IASA, in his evidence to the Inquiry said that he was aware of rumours before the Barcelona Olympics in the summer of 1992 that a senior swimmer was going to expose a coach, but was not aware of the identity of the coach or the nature of the allegations and did not receive any complaint or hear of one.

Did this man not feel he had any need to investigate these complaints? These young people — children virtually, minors definitely — were travelling abroad with this person.

On page 123, recommendation 2.14 states:

In October 1992 the complainant attended a psychologist in relation to the abuse. The psychologist reported the matter to the Garda who commenced an investigation.

Of course the Garda started an investigation, these were terrible allegations. Worse still, some of these individuals were semi-promoted.

On page 124 of the report recommendation 3.8 states:

On 10 November 1992 a complaint was made by the parents of a swimmer who alleged sexual assault by the second named coach. The committee of the club convened a complaints committee meeting on 16 November 1992. The parents of the swimmer were given assurances that both informal and formal procedures would be reviewed and put in place.

The coach involved in this case worked in a school and club.

Recommendation 3.11 states:

On 10 September 1993 the coach was suspended by the school on full pay until further notice and prohibited from entering the school premises as coach, lifeguard or parent. This suspension arose because of the awareness of the headmaster of the school of certain complaints about the coach's behaviour in the pool/changing area in the past. A written statement to that effect was made to the coach.

Recommendation 3.12 states:

According to documents provided by the club, on 11 September 1993, the President of the club wrote to the headmaster stating that the coach had been shown the written statement of the school relating to complaints being investigated by the school into the coach's behaviour in the pool area. In his evidence to the Inquiry the President said that he believed, at the time, that the reason for the suspension was financial or personal. He said he was not informed of the specific complaints.

Could he not have asked? Did he feel he was not morally obliged to find out what was going on? We go on to discover that a coach who had been suspended in Leinster was asked to coach in Ulster. Why did the children in Ulster deserve to be treated in a worse manner than the children in Leinster? This is an extraordinary situation.

The onus is on us to deal with mandatory reporting. Senator O'Toole and others have emphasised over and over again that children who make complaints feel something will happen. One child reported to a priest but he advised her to go back to the assailant who slapped her face and called her a whore. Another child reported to a teacher she trusted who she thought would do something about the matter. There is no evidence that the teacher passed on any of the information and the teacher could not be traced to see what happened. Another reported to a doctor but the doctor felt that the complainant did not want it to go any further. On the basis of doctor/patient confidentiality the doctor decided not to pursue the matter. All professions who deal with children or minors will have to make a decision about mandatory reporting.

As the Minister will be aware, the medical profession is ambivalent about this. Most of their concerns relate to an interference in doctor/patient confidentiality and the relationship with the child's parents and the family in general but we are all aware of incest and sexual abuse within the home and family. We must make an immediate decision on it. It is no good telling children in a stay safe programme what is not allowed, what is improper, what is private to them and must not be exploited by other people. It is no good having sexual relationship programmes if, at the same time, we do not make a decision on what children can do and how they will be treated when they complain about abuse. This is the most important aspect we should take from the report. I hope the Department of Health and Children will not put this matter out on the long finger as it has done for decades.

Mr. Gallagher

It is disappointing that a discussion on sport which can be enjoyed by everyone should focus on this horrific tale of neglect, oversight and of children being let down. This happened in a sport in which many adults and children engage and which should be enjoyable. I have much sympathy for the Minister and the Minister of State. They head up a new Department which hopes to make a major impact on tourism, sport and recreation. These should be happy areas but one of the first things to confront them is this major scandal involving sexual abuse in swimming.

The production of the report, its consideration by the Oireachtas Joint Committee, of which some Senators are members, and this debate in addition to the expert advice being sought by the Minister will hopefully ensure that a system is put in place which will protect children and benefit all those involved in sport — adults, children, coaches, helpers and officials. It is terrible that such action must be taken but the evidence proves it is necessary.

As in other areas involving education and the religious, our eyes are being opened to the type of incidents investigated and reported on by the Murphy inquiry. We have a duty to put in place measures to ensure that children are supported and protected, that they can trust adults put in charge of them and, if things go wrong, that there are mechanisms to ensure they are listened to, believed and that action will be taken.

One of my concerns is how guidelines, obligations, reporting mechanisms and investigatory procedures can be put in place while, at the same time, people are encouraged to volunteer to help sporting and youth organisations. In all sporting and youth organisations there is a strong feeling that within a short time it will be almost impossible to get volunteers to do the work they did in the past because of the risks involved and the impositions on them. People will decide not to volunteer because they are worried what might happen in terms of an investigation or a court case. This is an unfortunate dilemma which must be faced.

It can only be faced if, in addition to guidelines and the introduction of legal strictures and strong reporting structures, sport and youth organisations are provided with the type of back-up support, advice, finance and resources to ensure they can implement the recommendations. The 1996 guidelines were produced by the youth and sport section of the Department of Education and communicated to youth and sport bodies who passed them down the line.

I am aware that in many different sports clubs at local level they arrived as correspondence. They were read out by the organisations' secretaries who said they were available if anybody wanted them. This is not good enough for the youth and sport organisations concerned or the young people in their care. It is also not good enough for the people who act as volunteers in hurling, football, soccer and swimming clubs. I appeal to the Minister and the Department to ensure that any guidelines put in place are not only published, printed and circulated, but that clubs are supported from ground level up in understanding their responsibilities in that regard and putting procedures in place to ensure children are protected. At the same time adults who volunteer must be reassured that action is being taken in a supportive fashion and it is not intended to discourage them. Professionalism by way of payment has entered many areas of sport and it would be unfortunate if the voluntary members of local clubs were put off because of lack of proper advice, back up support and training to help them deal with the area of child protection in their organisations.

Many of the recommendations were discussed in detail during the debate. However, I am disappointed one recommendation was not made. For the sake of swimming, the IASA should disband. I do not make that suggestion lightly. It would be easy to change the name of the association, but in view of the range of organisational changes recommended by Dr. Murphy and the opinion of people such as Gary O'Toole who have attempted to bring this matter into the public domain for many years, public confidence in amateur swimming can only be restored if a new organisation is set up.

I participated in competitive swimming when I was young and the report has highlighted an aspect of which I was aware at that time. It is not a team sport and, therefore, it is different from many other activities. At a certain level, when people were identified as being good swimmers, parents and coaches were so anxious to make them better that the needs of the child were often forgotten. We must realise that children have social lives and personalities to develop. They should have friends and they have schoolwork to do. We must question any sporting activity which interferes in the normal social and educational development of children.

I am glad the Joint Committee on Tourism, Sport and Recreation is reviewing the code of ethics and good practice for sport. I also welcome the measures outlined by the Minister in that regard. I hope a further debate on this subject will be held in the House because many Senators with expertise in youth and sport organisations and voluntary activities would wish to contribute to such a discussion.

I hope the recommendations about the availability of counselling and therapy to the victims are implemented. Child protection officers should be designated in all sporting organisations. There is a need for the strongest possible reporting mechanisms for child abuse. The Minister of State, Deputy Fahey, is preparing proposals, but we must bring our deliberations on this area to a speedy conclusion and put measures in place. We can argue about what mandatory reporting should involve, but the strongest possible measures should be implemented to ensure that children are protected.

I was most surprised by recommendation 4.12 that coaches should be professionally qualified before undertaking hypnosis therapy. There is no place for hypnosis therapy in sport. Why should one be hypnotised to take part in something which one is supposed to enjoy and that is good for one? Hypnosis therapy should be banned in sport and it is the only recommendation in the report with which I am disappointed. I appeal to the Minister to ensure that no sporting organisation engages in hypnosis to improve the performance of any participants.

I agree with the Senators who referred to the need to ensure that the stay safe and the relationships and sexuality education programmes in schools are implemented. We sometimes expect schools to do everything but these are two areas in which schools have demonstrated that they can do a great deal. The stay safe programme is effective. It is established in most schools now and parents have told me that children find it useful and supportive.

I am not as heartened about the relationships and sexuality education programme. Organised groups and lobbies are travelling around the country, disrupting meetings organised by the Department of Education and Science and other school meetings. The last thing the disrupters can claim to be doing is protecting children. The Government must take action to ensure that the programmes it has put in place after much consultation are delivered in schools.

Sitting suspended at 4.20 p.m. and resumed at 6 p.m.