It is proposed to take No. 1, with contributions of spokespersons not to exceed ten minutes and No. 2, with contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 20 minutes and those of other Senators not to exceed 15 minutes. If No. 2 is not concluded by 1.30 p.m. it will be concluded at a later date. There will be a sos from 1.30 p.m. to 2.30 p.m. after which we will take No. 3, with contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 15 minutes and those of other Senators not to exceed ten minutes. There will be no time limit on the debate and speakers may share time.
Order of Business.
The Order of Business is agreeable. I compliment Senator Walsh on making it to the Front Bench. It corrects the impression of a reverse take-over of the Government by the Progressive Democrats – quick thinking by one of the Whips to ensure that a semblance of balance is given to the front bench.
It has become normal practice when discussing matters of the nature of item No. 3 for the relevant Minister to take questions from Members at the end of the discussion. Will there be a question and answer session?
I would like to draw the attention of the House to a report in today's Irish Independent that the costs of tribunals are now estimated to run to £30 million. We established these tribunals and set their terms of reference and responsibility for their cost must rest with us. Many of us have very strong views about the way in which one of the tribunals is conducting its business with an apparent lack of urgency about getting down to work. There will be a need for tribunals in the future, they have become part of political life.
It is important that the Government sets up a body to investigate whether the work being carried out by tribunals can be undertaken efficiently, fairly and at a fraction of the existing cost by another forum. We agree that the money being paid to lawyers at these tribunals is outrageous, indefensible and unjustifiable. It is not necessary that top lawyers are present all the time and we must set rates to ensure that. The costs are becoming a public scandal and do not reflect well on those running the tribunals. We must ensure that the truth of allegations is found effectively and at a fraction of the cost.
It is imperative that we have a discussion on mandatory reporting. It sickens me to read articles in the media about what happened ten, 30 or 40 years ago. Things are happening now that are not being properly dealt with because a combination of interests is refusing to address these issues in a proper way. I would like a commitment that the appropriate Minister will come to the House and apprise us of the Government's plans to introduce the contents of the Programme for Government before it is modified out of sight by people who have different views on the matter.
Thank you, a Chathaoirligh, for allowing me time to raise my matter on the Adjournment this evening. It would not be necessary to do so if we had a Shannon River Council Bill. I will come back to that issue when Senator Cassidy returns to ensure that he deals with the issue.
The Senator will get two opportunities to discuss it.
As someone said, we have not gone away. This issue will continue to be raised.
Significant legislation will be introduced shortly in the Seanad. Perhaps the Leader could indicate when we will deal with the Telecommunications (Infrastructure) Bill, 1999, the Education (Welfare) Bill, 1999, and the Copyright and Related Rights Bill, 1999, about which I do not know much. These Bills have caused great controversy. In 1942, when the Government of the day attempted to introduce the forerunner to the Education (Welfare) Bill, 1999, it was thrown out by the Supreme Court on the advice of Archbishop John Charles McQuaid and others. It is important legislation and I would like to know when it will be introduced.
I agree with Senator Manning's point about the tribunals. The tribunals were set up to deal with the various issues raised. However, we must look at establishing a structure which controls more effectively the financial aspects of the tribunals and their duration. Perhaps we should give greater powers to committees, particularly given the good work done by the Committee of Public Accounts and the Committee on Justice, Equality and Women's Rights.
Will the acting Leader clarify whether legislation is proposed to deal with genetically modified foods? Consumers are leading the way in telling supermarkets they do not want certain products on the shelves and that they want other products labelled. It is time we had a thorough look at genetically modified foods in the human and animal food chains and at whether it is appropriate for multinationals to grow crops for experimental purposes.
I ask the acting Leader to ask the Minister for Public Enterprise to come to the House to make a statement on the Cablelink tendering process. Allegations have been made about mobile telephone licences and now they are being made about Cablelink. Will the acting Leader request the Minister to clarify that issue?
I want to bring to the attention of the acting Leader and the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Molloy, the problems faced by our elderly population, particularly in my county. It is unacceptable that old people might have no central heating in their houses. In this Year of the Elderly special resources should be made available to improve housing for the elderly. This is the right time for the Department of Health and Children and the Department of the Environment and Local Government to come together to look after the needs of the elderly. These Departments have often run their own ships, so to speak, and the elderly have fallen between the two. It would be appropriate to make special allocations this year.
I want to add to what Senator Manning said about the tribunals. I am not too worried about the expense if we get results. There are a number of small ways in which we can get results.
I ask the acting Leader to pass on to the appropriate Minister, which I presume is the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, my concern, which is shared by other Members, particularly those from the Dublin area, about the proliferation of gambling dens along O'Connell Street and Parnell Street. I ask that this matter be investigated by the appropriate tribunal. Mr. George Redmond, who flew backwards and forwards with £300,000 cash in a bag, used to meet on a regular basis the owner and proprietor of one of these gambling dens from whom he received large sums of money weekly. Mysterious planning permissions were then granted for gambling dens.
We cannot become involved in the detail of matters being examined by the tribunals.
I understand that. I and others objected to these gambling dens but our objections were batted out. I was told today that another gambling den with a late night drinking emporium has been opened in Parnell Street. Perhaps that could be reported to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and we could have an investigation into these gambling dens, thanks to the information we now have as a result of the tribunals.
As regards the Copyright and Related Rights Bill, 1999, Senator O'Toole, with engaging and uncharacteristic modesty, said he did not know what it was about. Few other people are likely to know either. I remember several years ago asking the then Minister about similar legislation that was coming to us from Brussels because I knew the implications in terms of the James Joyce industry and estate. It was passed and signed by the Minister without realising the damage and it has had serious effects because it means the irresponsible and capricious behaviour of the James Joyce estate is now solidified.
Unfortunately in this circumstance, we do not live in China. The Chinese managed to translate Ulysses into Mandarin and publish it widely. If that had happened in Europe, it would have been prevented by the James Joyce estate. I received news this morning of the death of the translator of Ulysses, Xiao Quian, who was a remarkable man and a great friend of this country.
If Senator Costello gets a debate on genetically modified food, I wish him joy. I sought and got such a debate two and a half years ago and it was an utter waste of time because of the attitude of the Environmental Protection Agency. Let us have another debate where we can make all the same points, give it a good battering and try to ensure it acts on behalf of the citizens. However, I am not confident it will have the slightest impact.
I refer to a matter I raised yesterday about the extension of the registration for the Telecom Éireann flotation to Northern Ireland. I said that because I was a Member of the House I could not register. That may have given the impression I had a private interest in it. However, I assure the House that is not the case. If this facility is extended to people in Northern Ireland, I do not propose to avail of it. I was less worried until I heard the enthusiasm with which the Leader of the House embraced the notion and I began to think something might happen.
He is always enthusiastic.
Mr. Ryan
I support Senator Manning's query about the cost of tribunals. The Bar is the most effective closed shop in the State. It controls the fees its members charge and the number of people who can enter the profession, and it keeps that number sufficiently small to prevent anything as nasty as price competition. It would demean the profession if it had to compete. Everyone else can compete, but the Bar cannot. I am fascinated that in a world which increasingly pays obeisance to the notion of competition certain vested interests can avoid it. The solution to the cost of tribunals is to open up the profession to as many people as wish to practice in it and who are competent to do so. That will introduce the type of price competition with which people in every other area of life must live. Will the Acting Leader ask again about the anti-competitive practice by Ryanair of charging for the use of wheelchairs which at £16 on a return flight doubles the cost of a flight? That is a competitive advantage vis-à-vis other airlines which is unfair to the handicapped but is also unfair to other airlines who accept this as part of their social responsibility.
On the sale of Cablelink, if those trying to buy it have to deal with a definition of a cable programme service similar to that on page 25 of the Copyright Bill, I am not surprised they were confused. I have spent the past half hour reading that definition and I still do not know what it means. I am not that stupid, part of the reason being that I avoided going to Trinity.
The Senator can still go as a mature student.
Mr. Ryan
The Trinity definition of maturity never appealed to me. On the question of concern about GMOs etc. we should pursue this matter again because the scientists are being less than frank. Nobody can prove that something is safe for the future. Every single substance identified has a human carcinogen and has been identified when it caused cancer. That is the reason people have requested a debate.
The Senator supported the request for a debate.
Mr. Ryan
The reason we need a debate is that the so-called scientific answer is incomplete.
I support Deputy Manning's call that the House should examine alternative methods of dealing with issues which have to be inquired into. As a new Member I feel a sense of culpability for the extraordinary costs being incurred. Senator Manning mentioned a figure of £30 million and we are less than half way into the tribunal. Projections indicate it will cost £60 million to £80 million. I disagree with Senator Norris – the cost is a real issue. The taxpayer must be protected in such situations. A select committee of the House with the necessary legislative powers should be considered by some group. I asked the Leader previously to find methods of tracking the cost to bring it to the attention of the House. We cannot interfere in the work of the tribunals but perhaps you, a Cathaoirleach, the Ceann Comhairle and others of similar status should look at ways and means of having the House involved, as is the case in the United States and elsewhere. This avoids costs. Anybody following these tribunals could not be satisfied that the taxpayer has got value for money.
Will the Deputy Leader ask the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation to come before the House and explain the reason he can provide only £3 million for upgrading swimming pools? Most swimming pools were built in the l970s and are now dilapidated and outdated. Given the urgency to upgrade the majority of swimming pools, why can the Minister not secure more money?
I join in the welcome to Senator Walsh and also to Senator Mooney who have joined the Front Bench. On No. 3 and whether the Minister can take questions, I do not know. We will have to find out when he gets here if he is prepared to take questions. I will make inquiries in the meantime to see whether it can be done.
Is it up to the Minister or an order of the House?
It is up to the Minister, who is not a Member.
He is answerable to the House.
That may be the case. The Senator is here long enough to know that the degree to which the House, including the Chair, can control Ministers is limited because they are not Members. On the issue of tribunals and costs, I share the widespread concern expressed by Senators Manning, Costello, Norris and Ryan. It would be appropriate to look at alternative ways of dealing with these issues. The French system, an inquisitorial type sys tem, has been suggested. Obviously if people are being paid very large sums of money to be in Dublin Castle on a daily basis to represent people who may only be called for a short period there is a significant vested interest in wanting to stay there for an extended period.
In response to Senator Ryan regarding the restrictive practices at the Bar, he is right in saying it is, in many ways, a closed shop. However, there are a number of barristers who do not earn the sums of money that those in Dublin Castle or in the more high profile cases in the Four Courts earn. That matter is of concern. We are circumscribed by the Constitution and by law. Law is our responsibility. Some of these issues are being looked at in terms of the Constitution. I do not wish to get into the merits or demerits of cases being put forward.
On the issue of gaming halls raised by Senator Norris, I thought he was making an application to be in Dublin Castle. On the basis of what he said here this morning I would not be surprised if he received a communication from the person conducting the inquiry there. I agree with him it is undesirable that there are gaming halls on the entire length of O'Connell Street.
It is fishy when people involved in planning permissions walk in and out of gaming halls and get little brown parcels.
Senator Dardis to continue without interruption.
Senator Norris is making an even greater case to be invited to Dublin Castle. Senator O'Toole raised the issue of mandatory reporting, a matter we should look at which was discussed during the passage of other legislation. I hope legislation dealing with this matter will come before the House in the near future.
The Senator asked about the Telecommunications (Infrastructure) Bill, 1999, and the Education (Welfare) Bill, 1999. Debate on the Copyright and Related Rights Bill, 1999, one of the largest Bills to come before the Oireachtas, is due to start next week. The other legislation will come before the House shortly thereafter.
I was pleased to hear Senator O'Toole say the Shannon River Council Bill is a matter which can be more correctly dealt with by Senator Cassidy. I will leave it to him to deal with that issue.
He is drowning in it.
In regard to legislation on genetically modified crops and organisms, there is a certain merit in allowing the consumer to decide these issues. It is noticeable that the large supermarket chains have already responded by withdrawing some foods and by ensuring others are labelled. It is appropriate that labelling and so on be dealt with by regulation or legislation. At the end of the day consumer pressure will decide whether these foods should be available. Being a graduate of the National University of Ireland rather than of Trinity College, Deputy O'Toole is scientifically well versed in the difficulties, in scientific terms, of proving a positive, in other words how one proves something is safe.
Mr. Ryan
It is their statements I quibble with. They should know.
I still stick to the point that it is impossible in scientific terms to say something is safe. The matter involving Cablelink is before the courts and will be resolved by them. Until it is resolved, we have nothing to say about it. However, that would not preclude the Minister, if she wished, from coming to the House and I will make Senators' views known.
I agree with Senator Leonard about housing for the elderly and the allocations required in that area. Senator Norris raised the tribunals. I dealt with that matter earlier.
Senator Maurice Hayes raised the Telecom Éireann flotation. It would be desirable for Irish people in Northern Ireland and Great Britain to subscribe. I understand there is no reason that they cannot subscribe, but to make them an offer and to allow them to register an interest in the same way as people living here would require a separate framework of law in the United Kingdom. That is the difficulty, rather than any problem in this jurisdiction.
I dealt with the matter of the Bar Council. I agree with Senator Ryan about Ryanair. It should not be the case that anybody in a wheelchair or suffering from a disability should be subjected to any disadvantage when travelling. It is a fundamental right of people with disabilities to have access and to be able to travel in the same way as an able bodied citizen. This fundamental point needs to be made strongly.
I dealt with the issue of GMOs. Senator Walsh also raised the issue of the cost of the tribunals. Senator Burke raised the issue of swimming pools. He should visit the Kildare area where the swimming pools are being renovated at present by the county council. However, I will bear the Senator's comments in mind and bring them to the attention of the appropriate Minister.
The Minister for Finance is from County Kildare. That answers my question.
Perhaps the Senator will see a 50 metre pool in Mayo in due course.
Order of Business agreed to.