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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 29 Apr 1999

Vol. 159 No. 4

Sheedy Case: Statements.

On a point of order, I regard what is taking place as a serious insult to the House. I mean no disrespect to the Minister of State, Deputy Moffatt, but he has no connection with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. This debate was ordered more than a week ago on the assumption that a Minister from that Department would be here to answer questions. We were not informed that the Minister would not be here.

Deputy Moffatt is here to read a script which is not of his making, he is not answerable to the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and cannot give us answers. It is a waste of our time if a Minister with a direct connection to that Department cannot attend. I do not feel disposed to take part in this debate. Unless a Minister from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform can be here, which is the usual practice when notice is given, I will not take part in the debate and I will propose that it be suspended until the earliest possible time next week.

The Chair has no control over the attendance of Ministers.

I also wish to reiterate Senator Manning's point that there are three Ministers in the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform with particular areas of responsibility. That is no reflection on the Minister of State, Deputy Moffatt, who has dealt with his area of responsibility in an efficient and effective manner in this House. He has been put in the hot seat unfairly. This is a matter of great importance and significance.

I raised this issue last week, as did Senator Manning and others. We wished to have this debate last week and I understood that it would be debated this week on the basis that a Minister from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform would attend. That this is not the case makes a nonsense of the debate. The Minister of State, Deputy Moffatt, is not in a position to answer or respond in an effective manner on the events.

I will second Senator Manning's proposal that this debate be deferred or adjourned.

The item on the Order Paper is statements and the Minister of State, Deputy Moffatt, would be simply making a statement.

I mean no offence ot the Minister of State, but I am disappointed that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is not present. The issue of having a full scale debate was raised in a serious fashion over the past two weeks. There was a request that the Minister would be present to answer questions on the statements.

We were informed this morning by the Acting Leader that he could not answer for the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. We expected that Minister to participate in the statements and at least answer our important questions. I am disappointed that we cannot have a meaningful debate as well as statements. We wish to have the debate deferred unless the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform can be present.

I mean no reflection on the Minister of State, Deputy Moffatt, but this issue was raised early last week and a promise was given, to the best of my knowledge, to have the debate today. I am disappointed that only a prepared speech will be read by the Minister of State on behalf of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. It would be impossible to have a response to our statements. It would be more suitable to defer this debate to an occasion when either the Minister or a Minister of State from that Department can be present.

It appears that the debate will go ahead this afternoon. If so, will the Minister of State give an undertaking that the material placed on the record will be drawn clearly and specifically to the Minister's attention? I have material I am particularly anxious to have investigated, legal papers which I am prepared to make available to the Minister for the purposes of investigation. If he cannot be here I would like to know that the material will be conveyed to him.

The Chair is in the hands of the House. However, I suggest we continue with the statements and resume the debate at a later date when the Minister will be available and in a position to take questions from Members.

As Chief Whip, I am partly responsible for what is happening. When a request is made on the Order of Business for a Minister to make statements, we try as best we can to accede to the request. This happened last week. The Leader of the Opposition will be aware that sometimes when a request is made on the Order of Business for an urgent debate, arrangements have not been made in advance of acceding to the request and we must then try to fulfil the commitment given to the House.

Up until late last night, I was under the impression that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform would be able to attend today, as is almost always the case. I was informed that the Minister could not attend due to another engagement and that the Minister of State, Deputy Mary Wallace, was also attending another engagement. This can be verified. The Minister of State, Deputy Moffatt, then decided to make the statement on behalf of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. It is unfortunate that the Minister cannot be here but the Minister of State will outline the Government's views.

In view of the urgency of this issue, perhaps the House can come to an agreement that the statement will be read, that Members will make their contributions and that the debate will be resumed on another date. I cannot give an undertaking to the House at this time that the Minister will be in a position to attend next Wednesday or Thursday, for example, but I will do my best in that regard.

No one in the House imputes any blame to Senator Tom Fitzgerald, who is a splendid Chief Whip, or to the Minister, who has always treated Members with great courtesy. However, even if it were known this morning that the Minister would not be available, other arrangements could have been made because this is a debate which needs the Minister to answer questions. If I am given an undertaking, in the spirit of what the Cathaoirleach outlined, that the debate will not conclude today, that the Minister will come to the House next week to take questions and wind up the debate, I will agree to proceed today.

I have no problem with that request. However, I cannot give an undertaking to the House that the Minister will be available at a particular time on Wednesday or Thursday next week. I give my word that I will do everything possible to accede to the request of the House but I cannot give a guarantee.

I accept what Senator Fitzgerald has said. I support the proposal that we return to this debate next week when the Minister will attend. I think the House should agree to it.

There is one remaining problem. We do not know whether the Minister will come to the House next week. If the debate is open-ended, clearly it will not conclude today. However, the main participants will have contributed and the Minister will not have had an opportunity to listen to them.

The Senator can be assured that all views expressed during the course of the statements will be conveyed by the Minister of State, Deputy Moffatt, to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

Can we have an indication of the Minister's willingness or otherwise to participate in a questions and answers session later?

That is a matter for the Minister. I think Senator Fitzgerald has gone as far as is possible to speak on behalf of the Minister but he cannot guarantee that the Minister will come to the House. However, he has promised to take the matter up with him, to convey the views of the House to the Minister and to try to ensure he comes to the House for the resumption of the debate to take questions. Is it agreed to proceed? Agreed. I thank Members for their co-operation.

I thank Members because I know how they feel about this issue. While the debate is taking place, I will try to inquire when the Minister will be in a position to come to the House.

I wish to make the point that the debate should be open-ended to the extent that we do not conclude today. Anyone who does not speak today should have a chance to speak next week. It should not be a question of the Minister just reading a statement.

Do Members wish to propose a time for the adjournment of the debate today?

We will do that later.

I wish to apologise for the absence of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy O'Donoghue, who has another engagement in Templemore.

Senators will be aware that the Minister made a statement to the Dáil on 20 April 1999 for which there is no precedent in the history of the State. The Minister was required to perform a very difficult duty following a situation which occurred in the courts in relation to a particular case.

The Minister had made an earlier statement to the Dáil on 1 April in which he provided the House with the information in his possession at the time concerning the circumstances surrounding the relisting of the case of DPP v. Sheedy which came before Mr. Justice Cyril Kelly in the Dublin Circuit Criminal Court on 12 November last. Senators will be familiar with the details provided on that occasion but, on behalf of the Minister, I now wish to put the facts surrounding this case on the record for the House.

In early February, rumours had been circulating about the circumstances leading up to the relisting of this case, which suggested the possibility that there had been some form of impropriety involved. The Minister became aware of these rumours, for the first time, when he received a phone call from the Attorney General, while he was on European Union business in Berlin on the evening of 10 February last. He decided that an immediate inquiry should be established, as a result of which the Attorney General contacted the Chief Justice who initiated inquiries. He instructed that the Garda authorities should be contacted and that official level inquiries into what happened should be commenced immediately by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

The Minister pointed out that he personally had no hand, act or part in the relisting of the Sheedy case. The report of the Chief Justice was completed and presented to the Attorney General on 14 April. The Minister received it from the Attorney General that afternoon and presented it to the Government at its meeting on Friday, 16 April.

At its meeting the Government decided, among other things, to make the report available immediately to the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality and Women's Rights. It decided also that letters should be addressed in the following terms to Mr. Justice Hugh O'Flaherty and Mr. Justice Cyril Kelly:

The Government decided at its meeting this morning to forward the report of the Chief Justice to the Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Equality and Women's Rights.

I have been asked to advise you that the Government will consider, at its meeting next Tuesday, proposing resolutions for the con

sideration of the two Houses of the Oireachtas, pursuant to Article 35.4. 1º, for your removal, on the grounds that the facts admitted to the Chief Justice or established by him in his report, amount to misbehaviour within the meaning of the said provision of the Constitution.

Prior to the Government meeting on 20 April both judges and the Dublin County Registrar, Mr. Michael Quinlan, tendered their resignations from office. Severance terms were submitted to the Government. The Government accepted those terms and they will be commended to the Dáil in due course.

On 20 April, again with Government agreement, the Minister transmitted the report on the inquiry carried out by his Department, which was finalised on the evening of 19 April, to the Joint Oireachtas Committee already referred to. I will comment further on this report later in my statement.

The Minister was always conscious that the primary victims in all that has taken place were the late Mrs. Anne Ryan, Mr. John Ryan and their family. Their pain has undoubtedly been greater than any other. Mr. Ryan and his young family have suffered a loss which can never be reversed. It is not in the least surprising that the circumstances leading up to the release of the man who was convicted of the traffic offences which caused Mrs. Ryan's death would have caused the family concern and distress. It is not in the least surprising, either, that it has given rise to great public disquiet.

The handling of this case has concerned many people and the Minister's duty in relation to this matter was not an easy one. All three men whose careers have now ended are known to many Senators. They are men whose professionalism over many years has been respected.

In the opinion of the Chief Justice, the actions of one judge damaged the administration of justice. In the other case, the judge's actions compromised the administration of justice. The actions of the county registrar fell well short of expected standards. These are serious charges. The Government had to act and has done so.

It must acknowledged that it has been in the best tradition of the Judiciary, since the foundation of the State, to proceed fairly and objectively. It has served the State well by doing so. When it comes to our turn to consider the cases we are discussing today, we are duty and conscience bound to maintain the same high standards. The Government, in considering the appropriate action to take arising from the circumstances of this case and the reports of the inquiries of the Chief Justice and of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, bore in mind the need to proceed on its part fairly and objectively. To do any less would be a disservice to the people we represent.

I will turn now to the severance terms to which the Government has signalled its agreement. Mr. Justice Hugh O'Flaherty, now aged 61, has nine years service as a Judge of the Supreme Court. The pension and gratuity to which he would be entitled, at about age 67, based on his existing service, would be on pension just over £26,000 and on gratuity just over £79,000.

On a point of order, I ask the Minister of State to transmit to the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform that Members of the Oireachtas can read. We are literate and we are aware of this information. It has been in the newspapers for a considerable length of time. This is a waste of the House's time.

The Chair has no control over the content of the Minister's script.

It is insulting to us to have to listen to material of which we have been aware for such a long time.

The Minister must be allowed to proceed with his statement without interruption.

Mr. Justice Cyril Kelly, now aged 50, has almost seven years service as a Judge of the Circuit Court and five months as a Judge of the High Court. The pension and gratuity to which he would be entitled, at age 65, based on his existing service would be on pension just over £17,000 and on gratuity just over £51,000. Mr. Michael Quinlan, now aged 45, has over seven years service as county registrar. The pension and gratuity to which he would be entitled at age 65, based on his existing service would be on pension just over £11,500 and on gratuity, just over £34,700.

I should emphasise that the sums mentioned are entitlements and it is established that they are not entitlements which stand forfeited by virtue of what has taken place. The Government has considered the question of severance payments in all three cases very carefully. It has taken account of the fact that all three men have tendered their resignations, which was the right and honourable course for them to take and, in the case, of the two judges, avoided the need for a procedure in the Dáil which would have been without precedent. The procedure – impeachment – had the potential to cause the most serious damage in terms of maintaining the vitally important doctrine of separation of powers in this jurisdiction. There is no suggestion that any of the three were motivated by any prospect of achieving personal gain or reward.

The Government concluded that pensions should be payable in each case, commencing now, but, having regard to this, that no gratuities should be paid. The pensions to which the Government is prepared to agree are in the case of Mr. Justice Hugh O'Flaherty, £40,000 per annum, in the case of Mr. Justice Cyril Kelly, £30,000 per annum and in the case of Mr. Michael Quinlan, £15,000 per annum. These pensions would fall to be adjusted, in the normal manner, in line with those of other retired judges and county registrars.

In assessing the merits of making these payments, Senators may wish to know what the loss of office has meant, in financial terms, to each of the men concerned. It is not easy to be precise about this, but assuming the two judges retired aged 70 – the maximum retirement age for Mr. Justice O'Flaherty is 72, for Mr. Justice Kelly it is 70 and for the county registrar it is 65 – the actual loss in gross earnings at current levels up to retirement is in the case of Mr. Justice Hugh O'Flaherty of the order of £0.5 million; in the case of Mr. Justice Cyril Kelly it is of the order of £1.1 million and in the case of Mr. Michael Quinlan, of the order of £0.8 million There would also of course be additional loss, subsequent to retirement, by virtue of the fact that their pension payments would be much lower than they would otherwise be.

While it can be said that the loss of office may open up the prospect of alternative careers and earnings from other sources, it is nevertheless the case that the actual financial loss arising out of their resignations are quite substantial. These pension payments have been commended to the Dáil by the Minister.

Suggestions have been made that payment of these pensions to the judges should be conditional on their response to further inquiries in the matter in this House. Legal advice is being sought but I must advise Senators that preliminary indications are that there would be real constitutional difficulties in imposing such a condition.

I wish to refer to the final part of the report prepared by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform entitled "Avoiding a Repetition". This contains a number of far reaching recommendations for change, the fundamental purpose of which is to restore confidence in the judicial system which many people will consider to have been damaged by recent events.

The recommendations deal with issues such as the performance of duties by court staff; judicial conduct and ethics; the review of sentences and the establishment of a parole board; the method of appointment of county registrars; the method of listing of court cases; the assignment of cases to particular judges; court rules; plea negotiations and the formal transfer of responsibility for the administration of the courts service to the new courts board.

Senators may be aware that the Chief Justice issued a statement yesterday announcing that he has appointed a judicial committee to prepare the way for the establishment of a system for the handling of complaints regarding judicial conduct and related matters. In response to the announcement, which he warmly welcomed, the Minister noted that the committee will not alone consider the valuable work of the Working Group on a Courts Commission, published last week, but will also consider the arrangements and practices operating in this respect in other jurisdictions. The Minister has assured the Chief Justice that his Department will co-operate fully with the committee in its work.

The Department's report has been referred to the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Equality and Women's Rights for detailed consideration. The Minister has informed the joint Oireachtas committee that he will be available, as will his officials, to assist the committee in its consideration of this report. I understand that in their preliminary examination, committee members expressed the view that the recommendations were far-reaching.

The Government, at its meeting on 20 April, considered the recommendations and agreed to discuss them again shortly to ensure that all necessary measures are identified and taken to prevent this ever happening again.

Finally, and equally importantly, there are some principles which should be remembered in our consideration of the events at issue here. The separation of powers, the doctrine in Ireland, has tended to focus exclusively on its application to judicial independence. Perhaps this is because such discussion as there has been has taken place in court precincts.

Other principles related to that doctrine are rarely mentioned but deserve some reference, at least in the debate today. I refer to the supremacy of the Constitution and the role and the responsibilities of the Government and the Oireachtas of servants of the Constitution and the people of Ireland.

In the Dáil debate on this matter the Minister quoted the words of James Madison, one of the fathers of the United States Constitution. He stated: "We must perceive that the legislative executive and judiciary departments are by no means totally separate and distinct from each other".

This does not mean that the concept of independence in the discharge of the respective functions stands compromised but is simply a recognition of the reality that each of the powers of the State overlaps to some degree with other powers. That is why Government appoints judges and the Legislature can make laws that bind them and can remove them from office for stated misbehaviour. It does not mean, however, that in the discharge of their purely judicial task of interpreting and applying the law in individual cases, either the Government or anybody else can intervene. This, as the Minister pointed out, is the system of checks and balances which preserves our liberty and we should be profoundly grateful that they are in place, regardless of the frequency with which they are invoked.

The doctrine of the separation of powers is in place in our Constitution to preclude the exercise of arbitrary power and to prevent injustice. It was not found necessary by the Government to invoke the power of the Oireachtas in relation to the removal of two judges this week, but the power was and is there if needed. This is one of the benefits of our Constitution.

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Government are determined that the lessons we have learned from the recent events will be taken fully on board and that confidence in the judicial system, which is vital to the proper functioning of democracy and which has existed since the foundation of the State, will be fully restored.

The Minister is determined, as I am sure is every Senator, that in the interests of the public we serve we will never again have to go through events like those of recent days.

I regret the absence of the Minister this afternoon because I wanted to say in his presence that I am extremely critical of him, not so much of his performance in this particular case but his performance as Opposition spokesman. During that time, the Minister deliberately, and for party reasons, created a climate in which rational discussion of issues concerning justice became almost impossible. Every issue became black and white. Every issue was personalised around the then Minister. The smallest glitch in the system was directly the fault of the then Minister whose resignation was sought week after week in a mounting wave of hysteria. The Minister's behaviour when in Opposition, along with that of the then spokesperson for the Progressive Democrats, damaged the atmosphere in which debate could be conducted on serious issues concerning our legal, judicial and penal systems, which are the inheritance of all the parties who were in Government at various times, and brought the whole concept of adversarial politics beyond what should be acceptable.

We are now in the position where the Minister has inherited a considerable body of reforming legislation, much of it completed. Some of it, as in the case of the Criminal Assets Bureau, has been spectacularly successful in its work. There is other legislation in train, including the proposed changes to the judicial system. In politics we should try to behave in a mature way. It should not be impossible to debate these matters in a rational way without seeking to stir up hysteria and fear, as was done by the Minister when he was in Opposition. That did him no credit and it has made it more difficult for us as a society to deal with the many inherited problems in these systems by way of the normal courteous discourse. I hope the Minister will learn from his behaviour in Opposition.

As for the case under discussion, I was much taken by a remark made on an RTE programme by Mr. Tony Cronin who said that since there are no villains in this case, consequently they have to be invented. I do not intend to invent any villains. There are many casualties in this case, the first being the late Mrs. Ryan and her family. Mrs. Ryan is the one person who paid the ultimate price in all of this. Mr. Sheedy has suffered, and so has his family. The three officers of the court and their families have suffered enormously, and publicly, as a consequence of all that has happened. I know these three people personally. Perhaps some journalists would regard that as something one should not own up to at this stage but I am proud to call one of them a friend and the other two friendly acquaintances. I believe all of them to be decent people who have suffered, and I will deal with that aspect in a moment. None of these people was activated in any way by greed, gain or malice in what they did. Anybody who knows them and knows what has happened would accept that to be the case.

What did these people do that was so wrong? When all the smoke has cleared, what will be seen as the net issue in this case? There was only one net issue in this case: was due process followed by those who are sworn and specifically charged under the Constitution to uphold it? That is the only question.

I will put this into a more humble context outlined to me by a member of the Garda Síochána the other day. A garda is also sworn to uphold the law. A garda appears in court and presents his case, a case he may have been working on for many months. It is then found that some technical aspect of the case is wrong or some designated procedure has not been followed. It may be a mistake or a shortcut but the presiding judge will throw out the case and will publicly rebuke the garda in question, and rightly so. What was asked in this case was similar. Did the people sworn to uphold due procedure take a shortcut or do something which was not part of the procedures they were obliged to follow? The emphatic answer from the Chief Justice and from the Minister's Department was that procedures were not followed. There was no doubt in either report, no extenuating circumstances were presented and no case was made for mitigation apart from one reference to humanitarian considerations. Once these reports were made, there was no option but for the people to resign.

I wish to make an unpopular point, which is particularly relevant as far as the two judges are concerned. Was the Chief Justice the appropriate person to conduct the inquiry? He achieved what may be crudely termed "a result". However, most would agree that it was not appropriate for the Judiciary to investigate itself. What happened was not fair to the Chief Justice. If his verdict had been different, the reaction would have been one of a suspected cover-up, the old boy network and so on.

A serious problem in any institution should not be investigated by people from within the insti tution. Someone from outside the Judiciary should have investigated this case. Questions have been asked about whether the process adopted by the Chief Justice was fair to the three people involved. It is clear that they feel they did not receive due process. Informed commentators agree that those who were accused did not have the opportunity to directly confront their accusers, there was no cross-examination of those giving evidence, no opportunity for the accused to review the evidence against them and no opportunity for them to make a final plea in extenuation of explanation, having reviewed that evidence. As far as we can glean from the documents this was the way in which the process was carried out. If one applies normal due process, those who were, in effect, found guilty have reasonable cause for complaint.

However, we still do not know why all of this happened. One of the reasons for this debate is to stress that we must find out why these people did what they did. We must do this to establish the truth and to dispel some of the extraordinary rumours, innuendoes and gossip which have surrounded this case.

I do not believe there is a political dimension to this case. I do not see how Mr. Joe Burke could have had anything to do with it and I will be astonished if anything emerges to the contrary. How are we to proceed? In the medium term we need a debate on the findings of the Denham committee. That committee's report extends far beyond the issue of who judges and disciplines judges. We need to know what the Judiciary thinks about the questions raised and to examine what happens in other jurisdictions.

We must not leave this matter to the judges themselves. This issue is far greater than the Judiciary and we need a wide debate to ascertain quickly the steps which need to be taken and then to take those steps. There must be an outside public interest in this process.

The Joint Committee on Justice, Equality and Women's Rights is trying to determine what happened in this case. I am a strong supporter of the committee system but I question whether that committee is ready and appropriately prepared or equipped to carry out such an investigation. There is the issue of privilege – what rights do the two judges and the registrar have against defamation or other charges made against them if they appear before the committee without the protection of privilege? If I was advising them I would suggest that they should be careful about this issue. However, when we had to deal with a similar problem in the past, the Oireachtas was able to introduce quickly legislation extending privilege to the former Attorney General, Mr. Eoghan Fitzsimons, so that he could appear before an Oireachtas committee.

I am not sure what the status of the committee's findings will be. Will it have a quasi-judicial role? There are many questions, some articulated by Deputy Jim Mitchell, concerning the difficulties facing this committee if it takes on this task. I say all this as a strong supporter of the committee system. However, I do not believe it is the appropriate vehicle because it is not sufficiently equipped to conduct such an inquiry in terms of legal powers and so on. The worst thing we could do is initiate a process of inquiry through a committee only to find that we are unable to complete the task or that we end up in a worse position than that from which we started.

Will the Minister of State or the Department clarify whether, in their view, the committee has the necessary legal powers or whether it is the proper vehicle for this inquiry? If not, will it be given the necessary wherewithal or will an alternative method be found? I hope this issue can be handled through the committee. If not, the only unpalatable alternative may be some form of judicial inquiry – a judicial tribunal of limited terms of reference, chaired by someone from outside the jurisdiction. No one in either House wants such a development.

There are other questions to be addressed. One of the most frequently made charges, particularly by the media, is that the episode highlights the class-biased nature of the administration of justice. There is class bias in the manner in which justice is administered for a variety of reasons. However, I do not believe it was a factor in this case but it would be worthwhile to address this issue.

I do not believe this case was politically motivated but I would like to find out whether or not it was. I do not believe it was driven by class bias but that needs to be established. This case took place entirely within the legal system. It leaves serious questioned unanswered and major issues about the courts system to be addressed. At the end of this debate we will be looking to the Minister of State for some of the answers to the questions asked. Senator Norris correctly pointed out that his speech did not contain a single item of new information. Apart from the general principles at the end of the speech, which any first year law student could enunciate, there was nothing specific to help us solve any of the problems.

This case is a watershed in Irish legal history and there can be no turning back from it. I hope the truth can be established and that reforms will follow from this tragic case, which has so many casualties and no villains.

I welcome the Minister of State to the House. The matters we are discussing are not of his making. This is a serious matter and I agree that the Minister should come into the House as soon as possible.

This is an unusual and alarming case which is a watershed. However, it is generally accepted that the Department, the Minister and the Government had nothing to do with it, despite comments made in the Dáil about a Kerry connection. Deputy Owen apologised to the Minister and accepted that this was an unfair and improper allegation and the matter was left at that. The Deputy may have been trying to score some points arising from the Minister's tough approach when in Opposition. It is obvious that the Minister or the Minister of State had nothing whatsoever to do with this matter. When the facts were relayed to the Minister while abroad he immediately took action and began an investigation. Serious matters arose from that. I concur with Senator Manning that the Ryan family suffered from the death of a wife and mother, three senior court staff, Judge O'Flaherty, Judge Kelly and Mr. Quinlan either directly or otherwise were compelled to resign and Mr. Sheedy and his family suffered. Whether right or wrong, it happened and there have been serious implications. I acknowledge Senator Manning's sincerity when he said there was more pain and little, if any, gain to anybody concerned.

I do not know any of the officials concerned. However, I would have had some dealings with them in court. Hugh O'Flaherty was probably one of the most eminent Supreme Court judges, with a track record going back to his junior counsel days of being outspoken, fair and well-liked. Unfortunately, through an error of procedure he has now paid the ultimate penalty. Similarly, Judge Kelly who seemed to be propelled through the ranks was respected by the Law Society, the Bar Association and his colleagues as an outspoken judge who was prepared to take on some of the most difficult cases, including those involving drug barons, and was prepared to impose severe penalties without any fear. The quality of such personnel will be missed in the courts.

There are many implications arising from this case. I am concerned that given the annual salaries of High, Circuit and Supreme Court judges, those of a high calibre earning far more in private practice will be reluctant to put their names forward to be appointed as judges. Most people know that middle and top ranking senior counsel are making huge amounts of money in private practice. Sometimes when they accept a position as a judge they are taking a huge decrease in their income. Arising from this case, people may think twice about accepting a position. If the two judges remain on in private practice, I have no doubt their income will be quadrupled or more.

This case was referred by the Minister to the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality and Women Rights, of which I am a member. Since the case unfolded we have had three meetings. It would be inappropriate of me to say what has been discussed. However, we are treading warily on the issue as there are many problems, including constitutional ones, which may be encountered.

As it stands, the committee, without legislation or strengthening of its powers, can only request the parties concerned to attend. This has been done and responses have been received from all three parties. Do we ask these people to address the committee and give an explanation? I believe they are entitled to legal representation and also to have counsel with them. If they come before the committee, can they be examined under oath and to what privileges are they entitled? Is it possible for the Oireachtas, even with strengthened powers, to look into judicial decisions which have already been made? I think this may not be constitutionally possible. As the guardian of the Constitution, the Attorney General, who I understand is preparing a report, should be asked to comment on the constitutional implications of the case.

There is little precedent in this scenario. It is an unusual case which rightly puts a focus on how the court system can be improved to ensure it never happens again. I was interested to hear Senator Manning's story about the garda. As a court practitioner, I know that happens on a daily basis. Technical errors are made. We are all human, court clerks and judges can sometimes make errors. I did not follow the original Sheedy case. However, it appears the decision was never appealed. I do not intend to criticise Judge Matthews who heard the case, but from my dealings in such cases, and not taking from the severity of the accident, the sentence was one of the more severe I have come across. However, no appeal resulted from the original case, which is somewhat strange.

I concur with the view that it is important to find out what happened as quickly as possible. The newspapers have featured different versions of how matters unfolded. It appears that a conversation during an evening stroll may have triggered a chain of events resulting in circumstances which could never have been envisaged. The position of the county registrar, Mr. Quinlan, must be looked at to ascertain his rights. Can the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality and Women's Rights compel the two ex-judges to give evidence? Would the Houses of the Oireachtas have to introduce legislation to give the committee extra powers? Should the function of the committee be expanded to such an extent that it is a mini-tribunal? I do not think we should go down this road. The committee is investigating all possibilities. What procedures should we follow? Should any of those invited to address the committee decide not to, should we go ahead and question the other parties involved to try to ascertain the facts? If any of those who are linked to this do not come forward with their information, so that the air can be cleared, it will seriously damage the capacity, power and scope of the committee in question. There are many questions to be answered. Perhaps if the Minister is available next week he will throw some light on this situation.

The people concerned have suffered severely and have paid a high price for their actions. The Minister and the Government took swift action as soon as the matter came to their attention. If the resignations had not been tendered a day or two before the Dáil was due to resume the Oireachtas would have been placed in a difficult and invidious position. It would have been obliged to carry out impeachment procedures which, as far as I am aware, would have been a first in the history of the State.

I welcome the reports which are available and the announcement yesterday of the Chief Justice's proposals to set up a new system to review the practices and procedures of the higher courts. Reform may be necessary because the practices and procedures of the High and Supreme Courts have been unchanged for many decades. It is time to review them.

We will never be in a utopian position whereby hiccups of this nature never occur. We can try to minimise them as much as possible, but human error will always occur. In this instance, certain procedures were not followed to the letter of the law, resulting in the committing of an apparent injustice when someone was released from prison without the DPP or the prosecution being put on full alert.

In an appeal from the District Court to the Circuit Court, which is quite common, one first notifies the local Garda superintendent, the court clerk and the other side's solicitor. All parties must be given a minimum of 14 days notice. It seems very unusual that the review came up rather quickly and that a decision was made without all parties being notified. Unfortunately, I am not in a position to comment as I do not have all the facts, which is what we wish to see.

This matter is likely to take some time. We had hoped the committee would interview the parties concerned next week but this may have to be deferred to a later date because of constitutional implications. It seems, at this stage, it will not be possible to do it on 6 May.

I wish to seek guidance from the Chair. When this debate resumes next week, will Members who have spoken today be allowed to speak again?

The Senator will be able to ask questions.

I am the spokesman on this side of the House. If the Minister comes to the House next week, although I am not sure what the Chief Whip has achieved in that regard, will we be precluded from speaking?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I would imagine, and it would be my intention, that every Member will be entitled to ask questions.

I am pleased to hear that.

The Minister of State, Deputy Moffatt, is a decent, civilised man but he has been placed in a difficult position. His speech was virtually useless as it was a rehash of information we already have. It was prepared in advance and could not possibly constitute a response to the serious questions raised by Members. For that reason, the speech is irrelevant and an insult. It does not deal with any of the central issues.

This is a sad business for a variety of people in different ways: the family struck by this tragedy, the person who caused this tragedy and who must suffer from remorse of conscience and the devastation caused to his family and the judges and other court officials caught up in this. However, leaving aside this sadness, we have a responsibility, although the Minister seems incapable of doing it, to get to the heart of the issue and to examine the questions raised.

We are told there is a separation of powers between the Judiciary and the Oireachtas. That is not the case because these people are all political appointees – the judges and the registrar. In many instances, there is no transparency or accountability in the legal profession. This is particularly the case in the office of the registrar.

We must address this seriously. The four pillars of this State have been attacked recently. The Church is coming under scrutiny and clouds of obloquy and scandal. The banks have been swindling their customers by taking money out of their accounts without permission. The courts are now impugned. We must examine this closely, which I do not think the judges realise.

I have with me the words of some our leading judges. Mr. Justice Keane said in an in camera case held in the Supreme Court that “The most benign climate for the growth of corruption and the abuse of powers, whether by the Judiciary or members of the legal profession, is one of secrecy”. The former Mr. Justice O'Flaherty said in the same case that “The light must be allowed to shine on the administration of justice; that is the best guarantee for the survival for the fundamental freedoms of the people of any country.” This case indicates there were dark corners into which this light did not shine and that the legal profession is a cosy cartel, in which the clients – the public – get very little value as evidenced in a bewildering and disturbing number of cases.

One of the issues raised was the question of sentencing policy. An article in the Sunday Tribune of 25 April stated:

The issue of sentencing deals done behind closed doors raised by the Sheedy case, where prosecution and defence counsel discuss the options with a judge in his chambers, was also raised in 1996 by the LRC. They remarked: "Our consultations, in particular with the judges of the Circuit Court, revealed, to our surprise, that such indications are sought and obtained from judges in chambers more frequently than we had thought."

This is not openness and transparency but a dark corner in which corruption can breed. The article continued:

They added: "If sentencing became more predictable as a result of the Judiciary being better informed in general and having available a series of headline judgments of the Court of Criminal Appeal in different cases, there would be no need for such negotiations in chambers".

We read, from time to time, complaints in the newspapers about consistency in sentencing. They are talking about consistency between different judges. I could spend the afternoon giving a seminar on inconsistencies in the judgments of the same judge, including judges of the Supreme Court. We have a real problem in terms of consistency, and not just between different judges.

There is, however, a tragic consistency in the courts in terms of the narrow backgrounds from which the two principal sides come – those who make the judgments and those upon whom the judgments are executed. An article in the Sunday Tribune by Diarmuid Doyle showed the narrow range of educational background of the judges. Of the 32 judges of the High and Supreme Courts, an astonishing 22 went to one of just seven secondary schools – Clongowes, Blackrock, St. Mary's, Crescent College, Gonzaga, Glenstal and Belvedere. This outdoes the British system of class justice. According to a survey entitled “Crime and Poverty in Ireland” conducted by Ivana Bacik and Michael O'Connell, people from the poorest 20 per cent of communities in the Dublin region were almost 12 times more likely to find themselves as defendants in the District Court compared with those in the 20 per cent least deprived communities. There is this very narrow focusing.

I do not believe any judge or any person should lose their job because of a perception. One of the stupidest things I have heard all through this controversy is that people were perceived to be this, that or the other. That is a reason for referring the matter to the Chief Justice for a report. If after that report it emerged that there was only a perception, why in the name of justice should anybody resign or be forced from their job and suffer a severe financial cutback simply because of the public's ignorant perception? It is the responsibility of the State to make sure that perception is dispelled. I believe it was not just a question of perception. There is more to it than that.

A very good summary by Dick Walsh in The Irish Times of 24 April states:

The case came to the attention of the Supreme Court Judge Hugh O'Flaherty when he happened to meet a neighbour's son and Mr. Sheedy's sister.

He spoke to the Registrar. The case was listed for hearing by the Circuit Court (later High Court) judge, Cyril Kelly – not the judge who had imposed the sentence – and after a hearing which lasted less than two minutes Mr. Sheedy was set free. He had served one year of a four-year sentence.

Between Mr. O'Flaherty's meeting on the street in Donnybrook and Mr. Sheedy's release, this extraordinary tale was marked by departures from normal procedure and, in some cases, blatantly irregular practices.

That is not perception. That is fact.

Let us look then at what we have in terms of the letters from Michael Staines, the solicitor, particularly involving the office of the county registrar. Annex 23, the letter of 12 April, 1999 to the Honourable Mr. Chief Justice Hamilton states:

. . . I am concerned with the suggestion that any Judges or the County Registrar were relying on my office to inform the prosecution authorities of any application to review Mr. Sheedy's sentence. Lest there be any doubt, the initiative to list this case did not come from my office.

However, it was being put about that it was his responsibility, and this was wrong. Let us look at the follow-up letter, dated the same day, again dealing with this matter and again from Michael Staines. It is a much longer letter which, after the introduction, states:

1. On or about the 28/10/98 I received a phone call from Michael Quinlan the County Registrar. He asked me when I was going to put in an application to review the sentence of Philip Sheedy. I explained to him that I knew nothing whatsoever about such an application. He informed me that Judge Cyril Kelly was awaiting an application for review. Mr. Quinlan asked me to ring him when I was putting it in. I explained that I had had no involvement with the original sentence of Philip Sheedy but that his father had sought my advice in relation to what Mr. Sheedy could do at the end of December 1997. I therefore was not sure that the Sheedys wished me to act in this case. I confirmed to Mr. Quinlan that I would ring Mr. Sheedy's previous Solicitor and discuss the matter with him. I asked Michael Quinlan what this was all about and he indicated to me that "You don't want to know".

That is a very strange thing for the registrar to say. It is also very strange that Mr. Justice Kelly jumped the case up the queue from No. 19 at the very moment that the State's representatives were out of the court. The minute they went to make a phone call, on it came, out of the window. That has a very worrying appearance in terms of the sequence of the events involved there.

With regard to Mr. Hugh O'Flaherty, I know him from personal experience to be a very decent, cultivated, liberal gentleman and I am sorry that he is mixed up in this. I know very little about Mr. Kelly. I know very little about Mr. Quinlan on a personal basis. However, I am very worried indeed about the whole situation. There are a number of questions which have not been resolved. First, what interest did Mr. Kelly have in the Sheedy case? Why did he behave in this extraordinarily bizarre fashion? Why did he then take the case, and why did he dispose of it in 90 seconds when the relevant people on the other side were out of the court? Why did he not ask where the other side were? If we are talking about justice, why did he request counsel for the defence after the court case for this psychological profile?

I want to turn to the question of the office of registrar. I have papers in another case about which I am particularly worried which involve the county registrar's office and I want them examined. I want the Minister to write to me to seek these papers. The office of the registrar is a quasi-judicial appointment with no transparency, no accountability. He sits in court and lists cases. It is a very powerful position. He can list them, de-list them, re-list them, do whatever he likes, and does. In my experience, in the past that office has behaved in a grossly unprofessional manner, capricious and arbitrary to the nth degree. It awards costs or refuses to award costs, and against this there is no appeal. Where is the transparency? Where is the light that the Supreme Court spoke of as being shed into the corners of Irish justice? This involves people in expense. For example, one has to move motions to get a case listed. One has to pay expenses. One incurs costs, and they are not often given to the applicant. In the case in which I am involved, the papers relating to which I am prepared to make available—

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The case may be very close to the Senator's heart but it is not relevant to the motion before the House.

I would argue that it is.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It is not relevant. A passing reference to similarities might be, but nothing relating to the Senator's case is part of this case.

I will draw parallels because they illuminate this case and they are central. What I am saying is that there is a pattern here that worries people. This is only one representative case and I am sure there may be many more. We have a situation where legal luminary A bumps into legal luminary B in a corridor in the Four Courts, tips him the wink, gives him a nod, and the next thing we see the machinery of the judicial system being rearranged to advantage one side. This is worrying, and these powers need to be examined. For example, in the case to which I unwisely referred, a date was set. Let me just put the abstract. I will not deal with this case in particular just yet. The Chair can reprove me if I go too far. With regard to the role of the registrar in listing trials in the Circuit Court, which is one of the things that comes up in this, parties have to agree to the matter being heard on a particular date. If there is disagreement, if the defendant says he or she is not available and does not want to take it on that date, the registrar comes into play, because a motion has to be moved in front of the registrar to get a date, and the people have to pay for this. It has happened on occasions where this process was gone through and a date was agreed that legal representatives on behalf of one of the parties concerned turned up in court to find there was no case because the same registrar involved in a nod and wink situation in the case we are discussing here had decided, without telling one party to the proceedings, that the date was not available. That seems very dangerous and I have papers here to prove it. Are we to assume that one of those parties to the law case – and there were some very prominent barristers indeed involved in it, well-known people of influence – one of those barristers who happened to be on the opposing side, met up with one of these court officials or judges and suggested that it would be very helpful if the case could be pushed out of the way? There is also a coincidence in terms of names. Some of the people involved have the same names. The legal profession is a closed shop. It restricts entry and fixes its own fees. It does not send itemised accounts with its bills. I am aware of this because I am a litigious man. I am known as the lawyer's friend I go to court so often. The profession is a nice, cosy cartel.

If people such as I, who are known to be litigious, vigorous and vociferous in public, are concerned, it is difficult to guess what a normal person would call justice given the secrecy of the operation of this little network involving officers such as, but by no means exclusively, the county registrar. The job of county registrar is also, by the way, a political appointment.

I think of Jonathan Swift and the method he thought of to secure cabinet ministers in a government. It was not related to their political or intellectual skills but to whether they could perform tricks on a tightrope suspended for the king's pleasure over the palace playground. Is that the way we will appoint county registrars and judges? The public does not appear to be assured that we have a better way of doing it.

My final point relates to checks and balances and all that old baloney. None of it worked. The only consistent element in this case is coincidence. There is a sequence of coincidences. The final one is the only one everybody knows to be a coincidence – the fact that a neighbour of the Ryan family saw Mr. Sheedy out for a walk and brought it to their attention.

I am abusing my time but there is a further matter which I hope other speakers will discuss, the disgraceful behaviour of the Sunday World and how it illuminated aspects of the private life of this young man. He committed an appalling act but that is no reason to explore his sexuality in that vulgar and meritricious way. I hope the people in that newspaper are thoroughly ashamed of themselves.

I am grateful to Members for their indulgence in letting me speak so early in this debate. I will not be in the country next week. I am not involved in the political scene nor am I involved with any of the political parties so I might take a more dispassionate view.

I commend Senator Manning for the tone and content of his contribution, with most of which I concur. Mr. Hugh O'Flaherty has been a friend for many years and one does not desert one's friends when they are in trouble. Our friendship arose out of nothing more sinister than a common interest in Kerry football. Actually, the interest is not quite common – he likes to see Kerry win all the time while I like to see them beaten sometimes. I find him a man of integrity and honour. He is a kind, wise and compassionate judge. He is a man who never forgot his roots and who maintains a common touch. I am sorry that he should be in this predicament.

Like other Members, I am appalled at the way the case was handled. Senator O'Toole said last week that if any other trade unionist or occupational group had been faced with what was, in fact, a form of constructive dismissal, there would have been outrage. If the judges had been scaffolders, every building site in Dublin would have been brought to a worse standstill than the current one.

I do not intend to discuss the details of the case. It would be tempting to wait for the facts to be established by the committee but since nobody else is doing so I will follow the urge to state my suspicion, which is that this is the way things were done. I suspect that it is the characteristic of a closed, hierarchical and extremely deferential system. In a sense that is almost more worrying than if one or two people made mistakes.

I am glad the Minister of State called attention to the suffering of the Ryan family. I differ from most people in that I do not believe four years was an excessive sentence for somebody who, under the influence of drink or due to reckless driving, killed the mother of a family.

We should not rush to change, which there is a tendency to do these days. It is rather like the response to a security outrage when there is a rush to provide special powers or legislation. Special legislation, in restrospect, is nearly always not particularly good. This is a hugely important subject which must be dealt with soberly, quietly and away from the hysteria that sometimes occurs in these circumstances.

The separation of powers is extremely important. It is a cornerstone of the Constitution and it should be maintained. The Minister of State quoted James Madison in the final paragraphs of his statement. It appears to be a bid for more political control over the Judiciary. That would be a mistake in the long run. It should be extremely difficult to sack a judge. We give people these positions and surround them with safeguards so their judgments will not be influenced by fear of what will happen to them or their careers.

While it should be difficult to sack a judge, it should not be difficult to discipline a judge. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform said the Sheedy case proved that the system worked. Rather, it proved that we do not have a system and that we have been making it up as we go along by reacting to situations as they arise. We are not sure who should investigate what, whom they should report to or what type of safe guards people should have. In the case of the committee, we are not sure what the procedures will be, what safeguards people appearing before that committee will have or need or what the result will be.

The key question is transparency. The courts should regulate themselves and should be seen to do so. There should be clear rules and regulations. I welcome the appointment of a court board. I presume the employees, officers and administrative civil servants of that board will come within the remit of the Ombudsman. What about the judges? We should build on the work done by Mrs. Justice Denham. There must be a means of regulating the behaviour of judges. There must be something between zero and the atom bomb, the inability to do anything and impeachment. Impeachment should be retained – it is an important power for the Legislature. However, it is akin to an atom bomb. Once it is used, one virtually destroys the system on which it is used.

Last week, a headline in The Times proclaimed that five judges had been disciplined by the Lord Chancellor. This was taken to be the normal course of events. There had been complaints against 185 judges for rudeness or other misbehaviours. The system was able to deal with that. We must have a similar system. There must be a proper way of supervising the courts and the judges. There should be a courts supervisory body which should include lay members and people who are of sufficient standing in society for others to accept and believe that if they look into something and make a judgment, that judgment will be acceptable.

Senator Manning suggested the university model where a visitor can be brought in. It is important that we have a clear means of regulating judges' behaviour. It should be something which enables minor failings or mistakes to be corrected without ultimately ending a person's career. A training programme for judges should be put in place.

Senator Norris was very telling in relating the rather limited background of judges. There needs to be a broadening of that base. There needs to be a way of establishing consistency in sentencing policy by leaving adjudication in individual cases to judges. Nevertheless, there are broad bands of equity. There is no question but that our legal system and others press more heavily on people in the lower social classes. That needs to be taken into account. We need to vary the background of judges. Much needs to be done and can be done, slowly and after sober consideration. I urge Senators and others not to rush to judgment and not in any way to impair the independence of the Judiciary, the courts and the constitutional separation of powers.

I, too, am disappointed that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy O'Donoghue, is not with us today for this important debate. That is no reflection on my colleague from Ballina, whom I am delighted to see here.

The criticism which the Minister has received about this issue is, in part, his fault. When in Opposition he sowed the seeds of political rancour for which he now has to reap a bitter harvest. If we cast our minds back we will remember he called for the resignation of the then Minister when a prisoner escaped from Mountjoy prison. The blame for the type of resignation culture in which we now find ourselves can be laid at the door of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

Senator Hayes mentioned the atomic bomb theory: if someone under one's control makes a mistake one is called upon to resign. We must put an end to that culture within the political arena. There is no in-between system for dealing with small issues.

This case has taken on the aspect of one where the Judiciary was trying to spring a dangerous criminal. That is far from the truth. Mr. Philip Sheedy committed a crime and was sentenced to prison. With the increase in the number of deaths taking place on the roads it is necessary that heavy sentences are handed down if we are to curb the spiralling problem. There were other ways and means of dealing with this case than the one selected. That is the kernel of the issue. Everyone has suffered because of that decision – the Judiciary, the judicial system, the family of Philip Sheedy and the Ryan family. It is a catalogue of disaster to which the media have neither added nor subtracted.

I would like to see a reform of our judicial system. Criminals are walking free from the Four Courts every day as a result of our inefficient jury system. Senator Norris referred to consistency or otherwise of judicial decisions. There is a great deal of inconsistency in judicial decisions but they are dealing mainly with minor offences such as whether a person receives a fine of £100 for driving at 90 miles per hour or a fine of £200 and is suspended from driving for six months. Criminal cases do not come within their remit; they are decided by a jury. It is time we took a look at our jury system having regard to Article 38 of the Constitution. The system is appalling. Juries are not obliged to divulge how or why they reach a particular decision. They can be influenced by one dominant personality who will decide the fate of a person. This is happening every day.

The defence and prosecution can challenge a juror. Seven such challenges can be made without either side showing any reason. That system can eliminate 14 jurors and perhaps another 14 or 15 can absent themselves for other reasons. One could end up with a jury of housewives and unemployed people. This is not the way to dispense criminal justice. We need to look again at how we deal with major issues.

I am no advocate for judges. The Judiciary were playing Santa Claus with taxpayers' money in the awards they made in the Army compensation claims. There is a great deal of inconsistency in their decisions but it is not impinging adversely on anyone but the taxpayer. More serious issues need to be addressed. This is not the time to advocate the abolition of the jury system but we do need to look at how it operates. We inherited this system from the British common law system. The same system operates in the United States. A different system operates in the Netherlands whereby they have three judges presiding in criminal cases. Sweden does not operate a jury system and has done very well without it. They appoint lay assessors every three or four years.

The recent remarks of a retired High Court judge who has been looking at the operation of the jury system for some years and has advocated a change could be taken into consideration.

The issue in the Sheedy case has escalated out of all proportion. It has become a political and judicial issue. It reflects badly on those involved in trying to take a short cut in this case. The two judges involved did not follow the proper procedures. What they did has never happened before in the judicial system. As Senator Maurice Hayes said, their sentence was too great. However, there is no system for dealing with such issues.

The judges were not releasing a dangerous criminal from prison. There may have been humanitarian reasons for looking at this sentence but it should have been done through the proper channels. The people involved have paid the price for their misdemeanours. We should try to have a balanced view on this issue and we should ensure that the necessary reforms are put in place so that such an incident does not happen again.

I was pleased to hear Senator Maurice Hayes pick up on some of the points I raised last week about the need to deal with this issue. There is a either a Salem-like atmosphere about this issue or a reflection that we have done a good job in sorting out the legal system. It is an extraordinarily poor reflection on us all, not just the Minister or the Department.

These three people, particularly the two judges, were forced to resign because they did not follow procedure. It is clear to any fair minded person that the way this happened was outside any procedure or system of which I am aware. Two wrongs do not make a right. We have dirty hands as a result of the way we have dealt with this issue.

I do not seek to pass judgment on what they did because I have listened to the discussions and I have as much information about this matter as anyone in the House. I do not know whether they are right or wrong but they did not get the opportunity of due process or fair procedure. Yet, these are the two issues on which they had to resign. There is something wrong with what has happened. They did not get a chance to examine the charges, to cross-examine or to offer evidence in rebuttal, although I know they were asked for their views on various issues.

The way these two judges and the registrar were dealt with contravenes natural justice as I understand it. The two judges were offered Hobson's choice – resign or be impeached. If people are offered an option which in their view gives them no choice but to resign, that is, under the laws promulgated in this and the other House, constructive dismissal, which is a form of unfair dismissal. The process by which we came to this conclusion is wrong.

Consideration was not given to whether these three men were guilty. We did not give them the normal protections we give to somebody against whom crimes or misdemeanours are alleged. We did not make any adjustments in this case because both were dealt with in the same way. There was no sense of proportionality, which is as important as consistency in the administration of justice. There should be proportionality between the crime proven and the punishment imposed. However, that was not taken into consideration in this case. Neither was consideration given to whether this was a minor misdemeanour or a major act of negligence.

The Government found itself in a position where it only had one or two options. It could choose to ignore what it saw as a wrong or it could sack these people. If they were proven guilty as charged following proper procedure, it would have been more appropriate to demote rather than sack them. They have not been dealt with fairly, rather they have been dealt with summarily. Anyone making a judgment on whether it was an appropriate way to deal with it was running in front of the media. Governments are elected to lead and to make difficult and unpopular decisions when that is required. A proper procedure must be put in place to deal with these issues.

If a member of the Bar Council, the Law Library, the Law Society or a medical person makes a professional error, is guilty of a professional misdemeanour or breaks the professional code of ethics, there are structures to deal with it. Those structures are a domestic remedy incorporated in the law which allow final access to the courts if that becomes necessary. However, that did not happen in this case.

It is ironic that within a week of the Government offering a pension deal to these three people, the Department of Finance says they are not entitled to it. As someone who has spent a lot of time looking at public sector pensions, I do not understand this. It is possible under a number of different statutory instruments to offer this pension deal to two of the three people involved who are over 50 years of age.

I am concerned that the reputations of the two judges who have given good service to this country are now in shreds. It may be said that they deserve it but I do not know whether they do. However, the method we used to shred their reputations would not be acceptable to any group of workers, whether employees of professionals, anywhere. It reflects on the position in which we, as parliamentarians, find ourselves.

I commend both Houses for the time given over the past two years to looking at ways in which complaints against elected public representatives can be processed and dealt with. There was no process in place but that did not entitle a Government or a Department to ride roughshod through the procedures and rules of natural justice to deal with those involved in this case. If they were wrong, they were entitled to the protection and processes of the law, to fair procedure and to the principles of natural justice. However, these two judges did not get that. They were offered Hobson's choice – take a pension or be impeached. They decided to take the pension and resign rather than be impeached, a method which was not outlined to them.

I am deeply unhappy about this issue. I would be making the same case if two teachers or doctors were dealt with in this way. The judges have to be above suspicion, taint and any sense of partiality. Nonetheless they are entitled to whatever protections ordinary citizens are allowed under the Constitution.

When the Minister is present next week I will deal with the aspects of the case which is another day's work. Whatever happened was dealt with unfairly as regards the three people who lost their jobs, though maybe a fair process would have reached the same conclusion. That is not what we can be proud of. We are the guardians of the law and it is our job to ensure it protects as well as indicts.

Before we conclude, I gave a commitment to the House that I would endeavour to find out what is to happen. I confirm that the Minister will come into the House next week but I cannot confirm at what time. The Minister and I have examined the schedule. He will be in the other House on Wednesday until 7.30 p.m. or thereabouts but I cannot confirm if he will be in this House at 8 p.m. He will be here either on Wednesday night or Thursday afternoon. The Order of Business can be changed next week to accommodate everybody.

I accept the word of Senator Fitzgerald without hesitation. I know how hard he has worked this afternoon to try to make alternative arrangements. For clarification, this debate is not concluding today.

It will be continued and it will be possible for other speaks to contribute. A number of speakers, Senators Quinn, Costello and others, did not participate today on the understanding that they could contribute next week. Is that established?

Yes. Senator Manning and I have confirmed to some Members who wished to speak and were unable to remain that next week we shall return to the same topic when they can contribute. The Minister will come into the House on Wednesday or Thursday of next week but I cannot confirm the time.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

When is it proposed to sit again?

It is proposed to sit again at 12 noon on Wednesday, 5 May 1999.

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