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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 11 May 2000

Vol. 163 No. 5

Intoxicating Liquor Bill, 2000: Committee Stage.

Sections 1 and 2 agreed to.
SECTION 3.

I move amendment No. 1:

1. In page 6, line 39, after "Act," to insert "and subject to an order of the Court on granting a particular licence or at any time thereafter varying the application of this section to the licensed premises concerned having due regard to the size and location of the premises and to relevant local circumstances, residential amenities and transport services,".

I welcome the Minister to the House. This Bill has been a long time in gestation and we are particularly anxious to tease it out carefully.

The amendment is based on my belief that the Bill, as it stands, is over prescriptive. I am seeking to introduce a degree of flexibility into the Bill so that the prescriptive terms outlined therein are subject to an order of the courts which may vary the terms of the legislation regarding the granting of a licence depending on the size and location of the premises, the relevant local circumstances and residential amenities and transport services.

We are dealing with intoxicating liquor in a strange manner and feel obliged to prescribe the hours in detail. Not taking into account public holidays such as Christmas Day, Good Friday and St. Patrick's Day, we already have in place three prescriptive times when drinking is allowed: 11 p.m. on Sundays, 11.30 p.m. on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday and 12.30 a.m. on Thursday, Friday and Saturday. I thought we would have introduced some uniformity of drinking hours in this Bill. However, if we introduce uniformity we must also introduce flexibility. This amendment and a combination of later amendments have to be taken as a unit to achieve this.

There is a huge difference between a public house in a residential area, in the centre of Dublin and a rural area. Huge considerations such as convenience, noise pollution and opening times have to be taken into account. Public houses will be permitted to serve customers until 12.30 a.m. with a half hour drinking up time on Thursday, Friday and Saturday. This will result in large numbers of people pouring out on to the streets between 1 a.m. and 1.30 a.m. and all looking for taxis because the public transport system will have finished. Everyone has experienced the difficulties of getting a taxi in Dublin late at night. We are also aware of the difficulties which arise in residential areas. Our licensing laws are so rigid that we have ended up with public houses resembling large barns.

Hear, hear.

They are large so-called lounges which are geared more towards the old traditional dancehall facility, packing in as many people as possible, than an intimate social outlet where people get together in a gregarious fashion. That has happened in many residential areas. A lack of deregulation of licences – even in this legislation licences can only replace each other – has resulted in our not being in a position to provide a range of suitable public houses more conducive to built up areas and more amenable to the law in every sense.

Police forces in England and Scotland have converged in their opinion that all public houses should not close at the same time. Britain is now moving towards deregulation and 24 hour opening with internal regulation. That is partly the way we should go otherwise we will encounter huge problems. We will have to return to this legislation in a very short time as dozens of irate resident associations, traders, the public and private transport sectors and councillors are getting the brunt of the public's anger at the manner in which we have done our business here, when they realise what will happen in their communities.

I am proposing that we move away from the rigidity, the strictures and the over-prescription of this legislation alone to an additional mechanism which would allow a greater role by the courts relating to local circumstances and other factors in terms of transport services etc.

I strongly support this amendment which is an important one. We need to have something in the Bill like this to balance the result of an extremely effective lobbying by a powerful, wealthy and influential group in our society. I would like, however, to correct just one comment made by Senator Costello. He spoke about the difference between the centre of Dublin and residential areas. I know it was a slip of the tongue because Senator Costello knows perfectly well that there are sections of the inner city of Dublin that are residential areas but they are treated as human dumps. Behaviour is tolerated there that would not be tolerated anywhere else in the country. Since we have representatives of the vintners here, in what way are the Vintners' Federation policing the behaviour of their members and of the licensing trade in general?

Very well, very well.

They are not because I live in the middle of the mess that is allowed. Some – quite a lot of them – are very good but there was a pub in the news recently where a race riot was very nearly sparked. That pub has a history going back to 1922 when it featured in the famous second act of Sean O'Casey's The Plough and the Stars as the scene of a sort of low dispute and it has been uninterrupted since. The manager of that place had the cheek to write to the planning authority that it was a quiet area – a pub in which gunshots are regularly heard. He is perhaps suffering from attention deficit disorder or army deafness syndrome.

I would like to know what the Garda are doing and what the courts are doing. How is it that a whole series of pubs are allowed licences? I am not just referring to this one but also to the point excellently made by Senator Costello about the efflorescence over recent years of aircraft hangars in the centre of Dublin where alcohol is routinely poured into under age drinkers. Who is objecting to this? The guards know about it, the courts know about it but nothing is being done. Let us see the guards object to some of these pubs. Let us see the courts ceasing to rubber-stamp applications year after year for places which should not receive a licence at all. It would be necessary to take the transport or residential amenities and so on into account.

It is not just in the suburbs. There are areas of the city, and I have listened to some of the local radio stations all over Dublin in what would be loosely described as working class areas, where people are kept awake all night by the noise.

The Senator is making a Second Stage speech. We are on Committee Stage and the Senator must address his comments specifically to the amendment.

I am sure you are right, but you will recall that I did not have an opportunity to make the Second Stage speech as I would have liked to.

I still cannot allow Senator Norris to make a Second Stage speech on Committee Stage.

I understand that but, with the greatest respect to the Cathaoirleach, the points I am trying to make are in support of the amendment, specifically regarding transport facilities, the granting of licences and the policing of these premises. It is not satisfactory currently.

On a point of order, this has nothing to do with seconding this amendment on under age drinking.

It has quite a lot to do with it. I am talking about the policing of the whole matter. I am talking about the granting of licences.

What has the Blue Lion pub—?

I am talking about the granting of licences.

Senator Bohan must cease interrupting but Senator Norris must address the amendment which is before the House, which was proposed by Senator Costello. Part IV of the Bill deals with the granting of licences.

Indeed, but the words are quite clear that section 1 refers to the granting of a particular licence at any time. I am referring to the granting of licences and the varying of these licences in the terms in which they appear on this amendment. I have made my point and I hope that Senator Costello will push this amendment, not perhaps to a vote at this stage, but he may like to reserve it until Report Stage. There are very strong feelings on this. We are talking about a market here and there is a consistent attempt to expand the market for drink, blithely disregarding the health of the populace.

I support this amendment. It deals with licensing administration and the problem is that while this Bill goes a long way to reform the law system, it does very little to streamline licensing administration. I tried to put down an amendment relating to what was recommended by the sub-committee of the joint Oireachtas committee who brought forward a report, much of which is well reflected in the Bill and I am grateful to the Minister for that. Nevertheless, licensing administration is not addressed. We had suggested, as a measure which would be brought in by degree, that a section of the Circuit Court would become the sole licensing authority. Currently, it is dispersed all over the place. The Circuit Court is the primary licensing authority and the Revenue Commissioners are involved. Unfortunately, someone who wishes to object to the granting of a licence has only one opportunity on 30 September.

There is an amendment on the Order Paper which deals with that matter.

These matters are related and I am a little surprised that those amendments may not relate to what I understand is in this Bill referring to that area.

I understand that the matters are not related. They are two separate points.

That is a matter for debate. The point being made in the amendment is valid because it refers to local circumstances and the difficulty that can arise in local neighbourhoods relating to the operation of a licence. I will listen to what the Minister has to say and no doubt we will come back to hear more on that.

I too support Senator Costello's amendment. The size of some of the pubs which are now put up in residential areas has caused enormous distress to the people who live in those areas and must be taken account of. It would be very shabby if local circumstances cannot be taken into account when it comes to granting a licence.

The effect of the amendment could be to create huge inconsistencies in the application of permitted opening hours of licensed premises. For example, one licensed premises on a street might find itself being forced to close at 11. 00 p.m., another on a nearby street, or even on the same street, might be permitted to remain open until midnight and yet another might find that it could open until 12.30 a.m. Alternatively, it could have the effect of creating virtual ghettos where licensed premises could remain open late, thereby drawing customers from other areas, not just to the detriment of those areas but eventually to the detriment of the areas with later opening hours. It is not clear from the wording of the amendment but the implication would appear to be that the larger the premises, the more restricted the permitted hours might be.

Alternatively, however, a medium sized or small licensed premise in a rural town, where there is no public transport of any nature except the occasional taxi, or hackney cars as we call them in my part of the country, would also be subject to restricted hours. If one were to bring this amendment to its logical conclusion, the Senators would have me allow a licence to be restricted to certain hours the whole year. That way, invidious choices and fine distinctions would need to be made by the courts. It would make a nonsense of the system under which the licence of a premises is issued. Where there is a problem in a particular premises, there are already provisions in the intoxicating liquor and planning laws which come into play whether at the renewal of the licence stage or, as the case may be, at the development stage of the premises. That is the sensible and practical way in which the law operates and there is nothing in this amendment that would add to this system. The amendment would be unworkable. In those circumstances it will not come as any surprise to Senators that I do not propose to accept the amendment.

I am not pleased with the Minister's response. He is basically saying that he has no intention of allowing flexibility in the licensing system. He had no problem with different closing times – 11 p.m., 11.30 p.m. and 12.30 a.m.

For all pubs.

He is not, however, prepared to consider the implications of everyone pouring out on to the streets at the same time. We have seen the difficulties with public transport when people leave bars at 11 p.m. under winter opening hours. Thankfully we are getting rid of the dichotomy between winter and summer but in future there will be no public transport on Thursday, Friday and Saturday nights. There will only be purely private transport which is totally inadequate. Has the Minister addressed that problem?

Why should local circumstances not be taken into consideration? Why does the Minister have to be big brother, determining by law and precisely prescribing closing times in every corner of the State, be it urban, suburban or rural? Why will the Minister not allow a licensing authority, under the auspices of the courts, to determine if there are grounds for variation in his prescription, depending on the exigencies of the area and the needs of the people?

There is a world of difference between Temple Bar and North Great George's Street and I apologise to Senator Norris for not considering that in my remarks. There are huge differences between what is acceptable and what is not in certain areas. The Minister should encourage the Vintners' Federation and all other operators of public houses to move toward a more intimate form of service. They are moving in the opposite direction into a position where anti-social situations develop at the end of a night's socialising. The Minister's proposals will only aggravate that.

I do not intend to press the amendment at this point but the Minister should reflect on it. He will find he has problems with very irate people on the matter and I will re-introduce the amendment on Report Stage.

Senator Costello made some very valid points. In other jurisdictions a variation of closing times has been found to be beneficial. I have heard people throughout the city calling for this. The point that there are transport difficulties is well made. There are waves of people walking home in a drunken fashion who urinate and vomit publicly. It may sound funny but it is a source of infection and a serious health problem. It is a disgrace to the community that there is such tolerance of these actions and that some people find it funny. I do not find it at all entertaining, it is a dangerous and disgusting practice.

In the light of the Minister's refusal, will he give an undertaking that he will monitor this on a trial basis so he will be in possession of the facts? I invite him to give an undertaking to the House that, for example, the Parnell Street area will be closely monitored by the Garda at closing time, particularly the new closing time. Let us have the facts, let there be monitoring so we know what is going on and what sort of behaviour is being inflicted on the people who live in this part of the city.

I purposely did not come into the House when Senators Costello and Norris first addressed this issue because I wanted to hear the Minister's view. He has not convinced me. The Minister has been flexible and has done a competent job in most of the Bill and I congratulate him for trying to balance the differing needs and concerns.

I was contacted by the Malahide Grove Residents Association concerning one premises, the Grove Hotel in Malahide, now called Maud Plunkett's Hotel. I mention it because the association has done a very good job of explaining the specific problems residents face in an area with a pub which is causing problems. The Minister could consider this as an example of the possibility of allowing the courts to vary licences on the basis of the behaviour of the publican and the history of the premises.

The Minister has, to an extent, covered this in the provisions in the Bill related to under age drinking. The courts will have considerable freedom to issue closure orders to those pubs which serve children. It would be sensible, however, for the Minister to reconsider this issue between now and Report Stage. It demonstrates why it might be wise to have time between Committee and Report Stages.

I support the remarks made by Senator Quinn. We are referring to residential amenities. In my area one local hotel – hotel being a misnomer – spews out hundreds of obnoxiously drunk young people. The problem faced by the gardaí is that everywhere closes at the same time. Dublin can be a horrible city at 3 a.m. on a Saturday morning. Where I live, 12 years of age seems to be the starting age for drinking. There should be a special police force to deal with this problem.

Senator Quinn's proposal is very sensible. We do not want to penalise responsible proprietors who provide a good service. Most people who drink are not gluttons. They may work late and it is nice to go into a pub and have a drink in a pleasant atmosphere. It is part of our culture. I cannot, however, reconcile that idea with these huge shacks with bright fronts, the sole purpose of which is for customers to compete in drinking the largest amount.

Littering is the least of the problems when these people come onto the streets. I would say more children are conceived subsequent to people coming out of the pubs on Saturday nights than at any other time – I am serious. The people who telephone late night radio programmes all say that they had a few cans and then found they were pregnant. It removes the quality of life for the young people involved because they are sucked into the idea that they are not clever if they do not get totally "locked". I am very strong on this – the visual offence to other people is absolutely dreadful. I am talking about fornication, not even in doorways, urination, defecation, screaming and shouting. I know, a Chathaoirligh, you look shocked. All that I have said is true. What I have pointed to is visible in many of the outer suburbs of Dublin on Friday and Saturday nights.

To accommodate moderate drinking, even excessive drinking without nuisance to other people, we should have some call-back system for ourselves as Senator Quinn has said because in accommodating people's social needs we cannot take away from the quality of life of people in residential areas who are sick to the teeth of this kind of behaviour. I am sorry if I have offended anyone verbally but I am inclined to say it as it is. I would be grateful if the Minister would take on board Senator Quinn's suggestion.

I want to reiterate what I was trying to say earlier. The problem is that the whole nature of fixing trading hours is prescriptive, they are set down by law. That has always been the case since the first Act in 1833 and certainly after 1906. A matter that arose in the sub-committee was that rather than have a edict in relation to trading hours there should be some flexibility. The only way to approach that is to have a separate licensing authority rather than the Oireachtas laying down the law. The courts cannot vary the trading hours as laid down by law.

A full chapter of the sub-committee's report deals with that issue and makes suggestions as to how the law can be made more flexible. In other words, they could look at an area where there is a particular neighbourhood difficulty in relation to a trading licensed premises and something could be done to vary its hours of trading to meet neighbourhood needs. It is as simple as that. That is well dealt with in the report of the sub-committee. There is a lack of flexibility. While the Minister and I often have occasion to cross swords in this House on various legislative matters, I compliment him on the amount of the work of the sub-committee that has been reflected in the Bill. An area of weakness in the Bill is lack of flexibility in relation to trading hours and the fixing of trading hours.

I am greatly distressed to learn from Senator Ridge that conception occurs among drunken people on the way out of pubs apparently on the public street. I have never fully understood heterosexuality, I have to say, but I have always taken a liberal view and I felt it should not be criminalised so long as it was done in private and not on the streets where it might frighten the horses. I hope this form of behaviour is ruthlessly stamped out. I speak in the interests of animal welfare. If this continues what will happen to the horses of Ireland? They will severely traumatised. I appeal to the Minister to take this point on board which has been so effectively made by Senator Ridge as usual.

Senator Quinn made an excellent point. I am grateful to him because I was also briefed by the people in Malahide. As I understand the sequence of events – I am prepared to be corrected on this – a private house was acquired, turned into an hotel and retention permission was applied for. It seems this is unfair on the neighbours.

With regard to the inner city pub, there has been a very substantial change in recent years. In the old days a lot of the pubs were family businesses with the families living above the shop. That has now changed in the manner described by Senator Costello to the detriment of all. I do, of course, accept the vast majority of pub owners, including people who sit in this House, are very decent people and run a good shop but there are, unfortunately, a minority who are doing a great deal of damage.

I conclude by repeating my invitation to the Minister to ask the Garda to monitor what is happening at closing time in these areas and give him a report. He might like to administer a little kick to a few members of the Judiciary for the way in which they rubber stamp these applications too because that is not fair on the decent publicans.

Senator Norris is quite right when he refers to the change in many of the centre city pubs. I live in the city. One important change has to do with music and noise. I do not necessarily mean live music. This is an important variation in some establishments which has made life miserable for those who live in the area.

I would say to Senators Ridge and Norris that I am at war on too many fronts to be in a position to engage in a battle against the procreation habits of even a minority of Dublin's drinking population. I trust this will be understood. With regard to the implications of people coming out on to the streets at the same time, I can understand why Senators might be concerned in relation to the feelings of residents in some areas. I accept there are problems in some areas.

This Bill, while it changes the law in relation to the permitted hours, does not change matters that much in terms of people coming out on to the streets for the simple reason that people will still come out on the streets, albeit a little later. The change in that regard is not of any major significance.

Senator Costello and others have indicated that local circumstances should be taken into account. I wonder if this has been teased out properly. If one were to take local circumstances into account in framing legislation of this nature, it is apparent that one would have to take into account, for example, a football match at point B, a racehorse meeting at point C, a greyhound meeting at point D, a dance at point E. It is not possible to legislate like that. It is not feasible and it is not practicable.

That is not what we are saying.

That is the implication of what the Deputy is saying. If I were to take local circumstances into account in framing the legislation it simply would not be possible to frame it because there would be so many circumstances which are germane and local to areas. That must be clear. With regard to the behaviour of those who hold licences and the manner in which premises are run, there is already provision in our laws to ensure that people have the opportunity, at the annual licensing district court every September, to go into the court and object to the renewal of a licence on these particular grounds.

Why do not the police do it?

If it is the case that a premises is not being properly run or if the character of the licensee is in question, there is not a difficulty in any individual going into the court to make an objection. Senator Norris asked why the police do not do it. They have been known to do it. However, I suggest that upstanding citizens who have objections in relation to matters of this kind which can stand up should stand up and be counted.

Why should I continually do it in the absence of any support from the Garda and the courts?

With regard to the issue of a separate licensing authority, to which Senator Connor has referred, this was considered and it is an interesting concept. In the final analysis it was considered that the present system is more than adequate. There is a proposal in this legislation to set up a licensing commission which will look at the whole issue of licensing and make recommendations to Government from time to time in regard to how to proceed. In framing this legislation it was necessary to engage in extensive consultations over a two year period with various interest groups all over the country, to take submissions from the general public and various organisations and to consider all of these in great detail before producing a balanced measure. In the future I would envisage the commission tak ing on this role, thus obviating the need for the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to engage in an extensive trawl before producing the legislation.

With regard to taking on board an amendment of this type, I understand the concerns that motivate it, which Senators have articulated well. However, my difficulty is that from a pragmatic point of view it would not be possible to implement the Senators' aspirations. However, we will deal later with the issue of licensing and the changes that will be brought about in that area. I do not wish to pre-empt that discussion but, with a view to helping this debate, my firm view is that once the provisions of the legislation regarding the licensing of premises in the future are implemented, there will be a greater number of licensed premises in areas of greatest need. Consequently, the premises concerned will be, to use Senator Costello's phrase, more intimate.

Amendment put and declared lost.

Amendments Nos. 2, 6, 22 and 26 form a composite proposal and all may be discussed together. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 7, line 1, to delete "or Good Friday".

The main purpose of the amendment is to allow pubs to open on Good Friday. This is related to the points I made on Second Stage. Senator Ridge and others blamed drink for unwanted pregnancies, but that is similar to blaming Alfred Nobel for car bombs in Belfast or Mr. Daimler for car accidents. It does not make sense. It is not right and I contrast it with the approach of other groups.

As the Minister said, one cannot take all local circumstances into consideration when framing legislation. This is correct and that is why I have said consistently that the legislation is an anachronism. It tries to impose a form of prohibition, but that has never worked, and partial prohibition does not work either. I contrast the contents of the Bill with the enlightened approach of groups such as the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association which consider the demand aspect rather than the supply end. It concentrates on how to deal with underage drinking, giving the Garda proper authority, dealing with public places, including health warnings, and also the people who make drink available, the drinks industry, publicans and adults who are responsible for their actions. This is the way to deal with the matter.

The concentration should be on the demand side. There is no point saying to people that they will not be allowed drink at a certain time or on a certain day in a particular place. Every adult can have a drink when he or she wishes. Therefore, this type of regulation is unnecessary. I specifically tabled an amendment in relation to Good Friday because the position in that regard is the height of hypocrisy. In recent days I spoke to many people who drink and the vast majority of them had a drink on Good Friday. I walked into a public house on Good Friday at 10.30 p.m. and it was full of people who were enjoying a bank holiday. Many of them had been at church services earlier and they were doing what they would normally do on a Friday night. This was in County Clare and I asked people their views on Good Friday closing.

Kerry pubs were closed.

I cannot find anybody in Kerry or the west who feels there is a great need for pubs to be closed on Good Friday. I did not have any contact with the Minister's townland but I spoke to the Government Chief Whip who was born in the same town as I was. He is not prepared to articulate my views but I believe that in his innermost mind he shares them.

That is an advance on de Valera who only knew what Ireland was thinking.

In the words of Lyndon Johnson, then let him deny it if he does not agree.

Ireland is a grown up country. We appear able to deal with bribery, corruption and other nasty aspects of life. We talk about creating an inclusive society, openness and giving people responsibility for their actions. Perhaps somebody could tell me why pubs do not open on Good Friday. This was never sought by the Catholic Church or any other group. It may have resulted from a demand by 100% of the population at a particular time in our history, but that is no longer the case and, therefore, it is an anachronism. It does not have a place and the amendment recognises the reality of life at present.

It also recognises that in dealing with the problems created by drink, one should deal with the demand rather than the supply side. We should consider the views offered by people who are experts in this area because that is what they say. I ask the Minister to accept the amendment or else find people who believe that pubs should be closed on Good Friday. Why is the provision included other than the fact that it is an historical measure? It is an outdated anachronism.

I agree with Senator O'Toole's remarks. They reflect the points made in regard to the previous amendment that the Bill deals largely with restriction and prescription. The Minister should not wander into these areas. What is the reason for his position that no alcohol should be consumed on Good Friday? Is it because there is a perceived political need to respond to a previous church demand? Fr. Micheál Mac Greil from the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association is present in the Visitors Gallery and I am sure he would be able to inform us if the church has any wish for the closing of pubs on Good Friday to continue.

The prescription is more often honoured in the breach than the observance, as Senator O'Toole said. I have seen it in rural Ireland, from where I come, and the city. People go to inordinate lengths to get a drink on Good Friday and they invariably succeed. If the pub is not open, they take a trip down the country to Tralee, Dingle or Cahirciveen where they can drink on the train, although I am not sure that the train goes to Cahirciveen any more.

Not since 1959. There is much drinking up time under the bridge since then.

I know friends who pool funds and travel by train to Belfast, Cork or Killarney on Good Friday. They have a great time because there is no limitation on drink. They end up in a hotel in, for example, Killarney where they can drink to their hearts content. The Minister has stated that there should be no drinking on Good Friday except as prescribed by law, but there are ways around it. The simplest thing to do would be to delete the provision. There is no need to behave like Big Brother on this matter. There is no religious need for it. People can respect Sunday, Good Friday and other holidays without the need for a total ban on drinking in pubs on the day.

The provision may have been introduced for a particular reason in the past. There may have been a valid reason for it then, but there is no valid reason for it now. Why should it be necessary for people to try to come up with ways to get around the restriction? As I said, they invariably succeed. We should be open and honest about it and get rid of it.

As regards Senator O'Toole's comments on prohibition, this legislation is not about prohibition but about extending pub hours and providing for a greater degree of licences, among other things. I am taken aback to hear Senator Costello talk about restrictions and limitations. This Bill is the most expansive one to deal with the intoxicating liquor laws in the history of the State.

It is all about restrictions, limitations and prescriptions.

I am not partial to prohibition and I am relatively impartial on partial prohibition. That is my personal view but when one is in my position it is necessary to get Government consent on publishing this type of legislation, to take on board the views of all the necessary interest groups, to listen to the public and to reach a consensus. I am aware, for example, that former Ministers for Justice – I do not say this boastfully – would not dare touch the intoxicating liquor laws because they felt it was walking on egg shells and they were right. That has been my experience over the past two to three years.

It is difficult to strike a balance. Senator Costello and Senator O'Toole may be correct in what they are saying but there is another viewpoint that they are completely wrong. In as much as there are as many optimum hours at which one can close a public house as there are drinks, there are as many views on Good Friday being a closed day as there are views that it should be an open day. I must take what I consider to be the well-being and the views of society on board.

If one makes the argument for pluralism, which Senator O'Toole has made, to the effect that Good Friday should be an open day in public houses, then I am entitled to ask why we should stop there. Why does the Senator not say that Christmas Day should be an open day as well? If the Senator wants to be consistent in terms of pluralism, he must go all the way. He cannot differentiate if he is consistent. The legislation is consistent and on balance and, although it is a thin line, it is correct to leave Good Friday and Christmas Day as they are.

We have taken hundreds of submissions in the Department on this issue and I could not discern a demand of any note from the public to open public houses on Good Friday.

There is no demand from the vintners.

I cannot deny that a minority of people may wish to go into public houses on Good Friday. There is a minority of people who wish to do a lot of things on many days of the year with which I might or might not agree. However, I must take on board the views of society. I have often set aside my own views on given issues to present what I regard as being in the best interests of society, not from a paternalistic point of view but from the perspective of society.

Senator Costello said I am telling people they cannot drink on Good Friday. I am not doing that. People can drink all they like on Good Friday.

Not in a public house where they want to drink.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I will allow Senator Costello to speak later.

It is important to recognise that if people want to have a drink on Good Friday they can do so at home. We are talking about whether they can go into a public house on Good Friday and that is a different issue. I am not being paternalistic but merely reflecting what I consider to be the views held on balance.

The Government contends there is no real demand for licensed premises to open on Good Friday. Senator Connor referred to the joint Oireachtas sub-committee on the liquor licensing laws which was of the view that there should be no change to the law concerning Good Friday. The committee members considered this matter in great detail and they would surely be reflective of what their constituents felt throughout the country. It is interesting, noteworthy and important in the context of coming to a conclusion on this issue that they specifically recommended against opening on Good Friday. I must take that on board.

If we proceeded with the amendment proposed by Senator O'Toole it would meet with considerable opposition from people who genuinely hold the opposite view to his.

I ask the Minister to tell me why.

There are traditional aspects to the licensing laws which command significant support in our community. Good Friday is a day which many people in our community do not want to see as an open day for licensed premises.

I listened carefully to the Minister. I did not have any views on this issue earlier because it seemed normal to maintain the status quo. I read the views of the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association which wants to deal with the source of the problem. I also read the views of the Competition Authority on the legislation and I am aware the Minister is striking a balance. The Competition Authority wants less regulations and laws, whether in the pub or taxi business, and more freedom.

I work in a grocery business where there is no regulation about opening a shop, when it can be opened and who can go into business. There is open competition. The grocery business is used to competition with unfettered controls. We can open our grocery shops when we want to and we do not open all the hours we are allowed to do so. I accept the Minister's point about Christmas Day and Good Friday. There is almost an assumption that if the law states a business can open it is obliged to open. I do not accept that.

I know the Minister must strike a balance but if he accepted the Competition Authority's views and got rid of licensing requirements, other than those related to planning and health and safety, there would be more pubs, off-licences and competition. The Competition Authority suggests that less regulation would be better for the nation.

We have regulations for Christmas Day and Good Friday because of traditional views, as the Minister said, and because sufficient people do not want pubs to open on Good Friday and Christmas Day. There was a law until 1960 or 1961 which stated that pubs could not open on St. Patrick's Day and people could only buy drink at the dog show in the RDS.

It is an amazing country.

We pass laws because we, as legislators, say we know what is best for the people. There are people who have no homes to go to on Christmas Day so they have nowhere to go because pubs and most hotels are not open. I am not making a strong case to change the legislation but I support the long-term view that we should not impose regulations on the citizenry because we know what is best for them. It would be much better to have fewer regulations and greater freedom to do what we like. If that happened and there was no regulation of opening hours, pubs would still close at 9, 10, or 11 p.m. or midnight, or whatever time suited them, with some staying open until 2 or 3 a.m. Some would open on Good Friday and Christmas Day and some would not.

I do not have Senator O'Toole's experience but I was on an airplane on Good Friday last year and all the passengers were Irish. When the meals were served, I formed the impression that almost everyone had a glass of wine. We speak of tradition, yet it appeared that almost everyone was willing to take a glass of wine. The Minister said people can drink at home. They cannot unless they plan for it in advance. Under this legislation they will not be able to buy a bottle of wine to have with their meal on Good Friday or Christmas Day. I do not argue strongly for the repeal of Good Friday closing, rather that we should get away from the belief that, if a person is allowed to open, he or she is forced to open. We should also get away from the belief that the legislators know what is best for people and that we decide for them.

In general, the Minister has achieved a successful balance in the legislation. I was waiting for him to produce the body of opinion against opening on Good Friday or Christmas Day. I do not hear that view coming from the church or from citizens in general. I do not accept the Minister's view that there is no demand because Senator O'Toole and others will say that many pubs are full on those days and my evidence is that the vast majority of the public seem to be willing to drink wine or whatever else on an airplane on that day. Are we wise to assume that we know better or has the Minister knowledge of a group which has said it is anxious that there would not be opening on these days? I do not argue the case as the Minister has achieved the right balance, but Senator O'Toole has made a strong case and it should be heard.

The Minister was right when he said pubs do not open their front doors. They open their back doors instead. That is what happens on Good Friday throughout the country, and it makes a sham of politics. I contrast the approach taken here with the approach of the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association. I am not surprised by its approach because the chairperson of that august body wrote the definitive work on prejudice and tolerance in society in the two most important tomes which have ever been written. It is from those books that I have learned many of my views on tolerance and prejudice which are pertinent in the context of the debate on immigration and racism.

The only reason which has been given for the retention of Good Friday closing is tradition, but that was of a different Ireland. That is not to say it was better or worse or that people should not be entitled to express their views. My view is in line with what Senator Quinn said – self-regulation beats national regulation any time. The more we devolve responsibility from the national to the local and the individual, the stronger we become as a community. It enables people to take control of their lives. Therefore, the approach of the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association is to ensure that young people are protected, that health issues are dealt with, that the Garda has proper resources and that those who sell or hand out drink to young people or others take responsibility for their action. That is the proper way to deal with it.

I will give a simple example. The Education Act requires teachers to reflect on and show consideration for the various denominations and values and diversity of beliefs of different communities. I visited a school in this town this week where more than 25% of the children are from abroad. How does the teacher explain to the parents of those children why pubs do not open on Good Friday? The only reason is one which has a vague connection to religion or tradition. Nonetheless, it means a certain message is sent out.

I do not wish to overstate the matter but I use the Good Friday issue because this argument and discussion should take place. This will probably be voted down and many of those who will vote against it were in pubs on Good Friday. It is ridiculous, a sham and hypocrisy at a time when we are trying to make politics relevant and say that public representation is real and honest.

Pubs are not required to open and people are not required to drink. They can make that decision for themselves. However, people do not demand it nor do they need to demand it. Similarly, a huge number of premises have ignored the law which requires pubs to close between 2 p.m. and 4 p.m. on a Sunday afternoon. People voted with their feet. If people want to drink on Good Friday, they do not have to plan. They go to the pub, tap on the window and go around the back. Is it not a good thing that local publicans have the sense to deal with these issues and to see that the law is an ass? We should ensure that anyone who votes against this amendment would not dare consider or give a moment's thought to going to a pub for a drink on Good Friday.

The Minister's reference to St. Patrick's Day is a good one. It shows how society changes. It does not mean that it is good or bad, just that different demands arise and that is as it should be. We should be able to show young people that, if pubs are open, it does not mean that they have to go in or, if drink is for sale, that they have to buy it. People must learn to make decisions for themselves.

The argument is similar to the drugs problem in Europe. Every time we have tried to deal with it by stopping the supply chain, something else has cropped up. Designer drugs such as ecstasy have only become available because supply chains have been stopped. People will always find either another supply route or find something to replace what they originally sought. It is not the way to deal with a mature society. Eighty years into independence, people should be old, wise, able and educated enough to decide when and where they can drink. We, as a society, should also put in place the strong, strict rules for people who deal with that drug. The argument has not been made here, although the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association has made it, about the greater social, economic and other negative fallouts from drink than from heroin.

We should take the education route and allow people to deal with this issue rather than bowing in the direction of tradition. Tradition is not static but organic. It changes and continues to evolve. Traditions become such because people are brave enough to take decisions at certain times in our history. They are not cut and dried and do not exist forever. The fact that closing on Good Friday is traditional is no argument.

The Minister spoke of consistency. I have never understood the value of consistency. I have never accepted it as an argument. It is usually used by people who lack creativity, who do not have an answer to an argument, who talk about policy and about the way things were, and who say "If it's not broke, don't fix it". Consistency is not an answer to an argument such as this. If it is time for change, it is time for change. If it is not, so be it. There is no case to retain this measure. People are voting with their feet. It is not as if its repeal would be offensive to any group in society and I would be conscious of that fact. It is a matter of dealing with and responding to the views of majorities and minorities in society, reflecting the diverse values in society at present and recognising that, among other things, Good Friday is also a bank holiday and that people are old, wise, educated and able enough to decide whether they want to drink in the pub on that day.

I have not spoken on the issue so far. I was a member of the Oireachtas sub-committee that dealt with the licensing laws and made recommendations. Lifting the ban on trading on Good Friday and Christmas Day was the subject of much discussion. The sub-committee was representative of all the political parties bar the Independents and advertised for views from the public. After a lengthy debate it was decided to recommend no change. The point was made that from the religious point of view Good Friday has very solemn significance for most Christians, and ours is a predominantly Christian society, and no significant argument was given for the lifting of the ban. Coherent arguments have been put forward today, but the sub-committee heard no such arguments, written or oral. Senator Bohan can testify to that as he was also a member of the sub-committee. We came up with the view that there should be no change to the interdiction relating to Good Friday and Christmas Day.

If we are to make the change proposed in the amendment, we should be consistent and take Christianity out of the Constitution altogether. It is there, and that may be a pity to some people, but it is there.

That is the Progressive Democrats' responsibility.

I walloped the Progressive Democrats well when I said they alienated 50% of the population by taking God out of the Constitution but then lost their nerve and alienated the remaining 50% by sticking him back in again. I do not mind if they want to remove God from the Constitution, though I am a churchgoing member of the Christian community, but God is there and I remind Senators of that legality.

Senator O'Toole said this is not the way to deal with a grown up society. What does he think we are – a grown up society? I certainly do not. I can invoke St. Patrick's Day, which is a very good weapon in my armoury. Let us remember what happened in this city on St. Patrick's Day – the barbarous filth left all around the city for days afterwards in public parks and streets by drunken, ignorant louts. Most of them originated in this country and got into that state of intoxication in inner city pubs. If we want to invoke these examples, let us face the reality. Is this what we want on Good Friday?

I am divided because I believe in pluralism and that the State should be separated from the Church, but on the other hand, I have practical experience of other cultures. I am not unique in this, as most Members are well travelled, but I spend part of the year in Jerusalem. One of the loveliest days of the year is Yom Kippur, when, by law, everything stops and people have a rest. The Sabbath is observed in Israel.

What about the Muslims?

What about them? I am glad Senator Costello asked that question. He should try to get a drink in Riyadh, and not just on St. Patrick's Day or Good Friday. I wish him the best of luck in ordering a whiskey and soda there – we would see him in the next world.

There would be stones thrown in the streets.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I will allow Senator Costello in shortly.

Let him interrupt. I think he is on the right side.

It would be a pity to have drinking on Good Friday, particularly until we are convinced that people are as grown-up and mature as Senator O'Toole thinks. The Minister has not yet responded to my polite invitation to monitor the behaviour in Parnell Street. Let us look at that. The Garda should give the Minister a report on that and then he can tell the House that this is what we want on Good Friday, the most sacred day of the year in the Christian calendar.

Regarding workers, I doubt there are many junior bar staff who want to work on Good Friday – I am certain there are not. I was in a city centre department store recently and the man who served me was extremely aggrieved because he was being forced to work on Good Friday by his employers. Why? Because of the influx of large British trading houses which have broken the ethos and traditions of this country according to which there was no Sunday or Good Friday trading. He told me he had no religious beliefs but he strongly objected to being bullied and pressurised into working on Good Friday. Why should we extend this to bar staff? They have a horrendously difficult job and must work late hours – after closing they must clean up the pub, close it down and do the cash before coming in early the next morning. It is not fair on them.

This is not a good idea. Although I strongly believe that there should be separation between church and State, this is not much to ask of a country that still poses as Christian. I would love to see our foreign policy dictated by strict Christian principles. That would be an eye-opener for the world. It would be a pity if we opened up Good Friday to the kind of abuse we know will follow on bank holidays. It happens with every other bank holiday and I do not see why we should not have one day of peace, quiet and reflection. People who want to have a drink can do so in their own homes. They can get in a couple of bottles of wine or an iron lung. We heard earlier about the habits of some people on the doorsteps of pubs – the home would be a more appropriate place for that kind of activity also.

There is nothing like an Intoxicating Liquor Bill to produce some eloquent speeches. We have heard nothing from the Minister to convince us that there should be a ban on drinking in public houses on Good Friday. It is not the norm in other areas of the commercial world.

Enormous pity.

Strangely enough, as I said earlier, if one uses public transport one can get a drink and, as Senator Quinn said, if one takes a plane one can get a drink. If one is on the train one can get a drink and if one is a guest in a hotel one can get a drink. Obviously if one is at home one can get a drink. The anomalies are already there.

The Minister said there is no demand and he has given us two arguments. One is that of tradition, but he has not teased out where the tradition is.

Tradition is an imperative in this matter. One could argue this case for the entirety of Easter – Holy Thursday, Good Friday, Easter Saturday and Easter Sunday. Surely Easter Sunday is as important a day in the Christian calendar as Good Friday, but there are no restrictions. Senator Connor's arguments regarding the sub-committee were not very convincing. It simply could not come to an agreement so it made no recommendation. That is what I believe was the outcome.

The essence of this matter is proscription. The Minister is proposing a total ban and such total proscription is not acceptable. He put forward the argument that there is no demand. Where are the figures, surveys and polls? Who did the Minister consult to show there is no demand? I thought there was enough evidence already. Even if one did not carry out scientific testing, talking to people shows there is an enormous demand for this. If the Minister says there is no demand there is an onus on him to produce figures. An anomaly existed in relation to St. Patrick's Day and the holy hour, but people have come to terms with that and they now consider that those arrangements were stupid. Why is there still such an anomaly on Good Friday?

The Minister raised the question of Christmas Day. We are teasing out whether there should be a ban on having a drink in a public house on Christmas Day. I am not sure there should be. Many people would like to have a drink in a pub on Christmas Day. It is a national holiday and a free day. People like to relax, go to Mass in the morning, have a drink in the pub on the way back and then have Christmas dinner. There is nothing madly sinful abut that and I do not think there would be a mad cry from the Church about it. We have not heard a valid argument why people should not be allowed to drink in a pub for some period on Good Friday.

This could become a circuitous argument and we could run around the mulberry bush all day on this matter. People have articulated their views and I understand them. At the kernel of this is what Senator O'Toole said. He said it would not be offensive to people if Good Friday was an open day. That statement is not correct. It would be offensive to a great many people if Good Friday was an open day. It might not be populist to say that, but it is the truth. In the eyes of thousands of people Christmas Day and Good Friday are particularly significant days in the Christian calendar. There are thousands of people who are firmly of the view—

What about Easter Sunday – the resurrection?

—that the law should remain as it is. Let us make no mistake about that.

Senator Quinn made an interesting point about groceries, that such a restriction does not apply to the sale of groceries. I counter that by stating that a supermarket with an off-licence may not open to sell even groceries before 9 a.m. on a weekday or before 12.30 p.m. on a Sunday. That restriction is in place because an intoxicating liquor licence attaches to such premises. It has been argued that a public house is similar in some way to every other form of commercial activity, but that is not correct. Alcohol is a mind-altering substance. It cannot be compared with a pound of butter or a loaf of bread. There is a major difference.

With regard to people having to make preparations if they want to have a drink at home on Good Friday, surely that is no more difficult than people having to make preparations to buy two or three mackerel, as people have to make preparations to eat as well to drink. I cannot understand how that should impose a particular difficulty.

With regard to teasing out the tradition, I explained the situation. Senator Costello posed a difficult and interesting question as to why the situation should be different on another day of enormous significance, Easter Sunday. It would be unfair not to address that point. There has been a tradition in the State of these days being closed days. There are people who hold the view held by Senators Costello and O'Toole and I respect their views, but on balance I had to come up with a conclusion in what I and the Government viewed as being in the interests and the views of society. This is the view we arrived at. That is not to say there are not opposing views. It would wrong of me not to accept and respect those views. I am not being intolerant or prejudicial. If anything, this legislation reflects tolerance and, in many respects, is quite liberal, but it must also be sensible and reflect the views of society.

It may be the case that the position is different in Britain, Australia and America, but I am not Minister for Justice in those countries. My responsibility under the Constitution and the responsibility of these Houses is to our people. In this legislation we are reflecting the deeply held convictions, in many cases, of a great number of our people. With regard to the Churches not entering into the debate, they would be far too sensible to do that.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Is the amendment being pressed?

May I make a final comment?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I remind the Deputy we have spent quite a while on these amendments.

In deference to Senator Quinn and the argument he made about the difference between buying mackerel and buying drink, people can buy a few mackerel on Good Friday on the spur of the moment, but they cannot buy alcoholic drink on that day.

What we are doing today is intrinsically bad for politics. It is bad for the way we do our business. I have always believed, to use a line my father used, that the worst kind of law is that which is unimplementable and the next worst kind is that which is not implemented. This law is honoured more in the breach than in the observance and we should reflect on that position.

I agree fully with the point made by Senator Quinn, this is not about forcing pubs to open or people to work when they do not want to, rather it is about giving people a choice and letting them learn to control their lives. The less we give them such choices, the more we will have the outcomes and consequences outlined by Senator Norris where people drink too much. When many people go to a pub, they do not check the time on their watches because they will stay there until closing time, but if they did not know what time the pub would close at, they would control their time and space and decide when they want to go home.

The same argument applies to the situation on Good Friday. It is a mistake. People are laughing at us. They say we do not realise people can get a drink on Good Friday, that most people go for drinks in pubs on Good Friday and that we do not have the wit to find that out. The rest of the world is disconnected with us in this respect. This legislation presents us with an opportunity to make a mature decision to allow people take control of their lives. The idea that pubs cannot open on Good Friday in this day and age, with the type of multicultural and tolerant society we have and the pluralist approach we want to adopt to all parties and groups, is not the way to proceed.

I regret the Minister does not see a way of accepting this amendment. I will press it.

I wish to make a point in the friendliest possible way about what Senator Costello said. He indicated there might not have been agreement at the sub-committee on this point. There was absolute agreement by members of the sub-committee on it. If my memory serves me correctly, on the day it was debated and decided, all seven members of the sub-committee were present, so the views on this point were broadly represented.

I have not got an explanation for this anomaly. With regard to what Senator Connor and the Minister said, why was there absolute agreement on this point by members of the sub-committee? The Minister says he respects the views of both sides on this and that it is an important point. Likewise, Senator Connor said there was a good deal of discussion and division on this point. If there was a lot of discussion and division on it, I am surprised there was absolute agreement on it. What are the arguments for it, if people seek avenues to find a drink on a Good Friday? Given that there appears to be conflict with the tradition that some holy days of obligation in the Christian calendar have a ban on drink being consumed in public houses and that other days of religious significance do not, has any research been carried out on this matter? Has the Minister's Department decided to do any work in relation to determining the position? The Minister indicated earlier that he consulted on the matter. Will he clarify the consultation and the background work he engaged in to determine his view that there is no demand and that tradition still holds in relation to the existing position?

Senator Costello posed a question as to the reason there was agreement. Having consulted my colleague who was on the sub-committee, he informs me that all seven members were in favour of continuing to close on Good Friday.

In relation to what Senator O'Toole said about the law being flouted and all of us visiting various pubs on Good Friday, if a public house in the part of the country I come from were to open, it would be in the minority and the customers who would want to drink in it would be in the minority. I support the Good Friday closure. Many more people now work on Good Friday than was the case heretofore. We are talking about abstaining from having a drink for one night out of seven. I fully support the continued closure on Good Friday, and we are well able to drink in the part of the country from which I come.

I know that.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I do not think that is in dispute, Senator.

As I have said already, this argument is becoming circuitous now. There is no point in me going into the matter further other than to say that the position is that the days concerned are of enormous significance to an enormous number of people, of that there can be no doubt. The Government is of the view that the public, in general terms, favours the continued closure on Good Friday. I am not saying that is by an overwhelming majority but on balance that would appear to be the position and I believe we are reflecting what the general public actually wants in the majority of cases. Obviously there will be disagreements in relation to this matter, and that is perfectly understandable. When Senator O'Toole speaks about consistency being a foolish thing, I am very much reminded of the late, great Brian Lenihan's phrase which was that he considered that consistency was futile. He said that he deplored the futility of consistency.

I have always agreed with Fianna Fáil on that one.

Not only that, but Senator O'Toole practised it.

That much having been said, this matter goes far deeper than consistency and in those circumstances I will respect the views of what I consider to be the majority.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Is the amendment being pressed?

In respect of those people who go for a drink every Good Friday and the fact that many of us like to drink on Good Friday and that the rest of us want to have a tolerant society, I will press the amendment. The Minister is forcing us to break the law next Good Friday. He is forcing half the publicans in the country to break the law and he is forcing us—

The Senator should address Christmas Day.

—to go to the back door of pubs rather than the front door. It is a sad reflection on Irish society.

The Senator did not address Christmas Day.

I did not because it is not in the amendment. I thought I might be told that it was out of order. I am quite happy to deal with that on Report Stage. I did not want to be drawn down that road. The Minister got enough satisfaction from seeing two Members of this side of the House arguing. I was not going to let him suck me into an argument which had nothing to do with what I was putting forward. We are old enough to buy a drink when we want to, including on Good Friday, and the publicans should be able to open their front doors rather than their back doors. We should do what they do in the Minister's town, in my town, in Tralee and in various other places on Good Friday.

Not in my town.

Yes, they do. If the Minister wants me to name a pub in Cahirciveen that was open on Good Friday, I will do it.

I cannot agree with Senator O'Toole. I served on the sub-committee with Senator Connor and, as he stated, there was unanimous agreement that we would not change Good Friday closing. Senator O'Toole said that all the publicans' back doors are open on Good Friday. I can only speak for Dublin, but one would be very lucky to get a drink in any pub in Dublin on Good Friday.

The law is for Dublin people. Down in our part of the country we deal with it differently. We interpret the law.

Dublin people have to travel to Kerry for a drink. It is very expensive in Dublin.

I travelled to Killarney on Good Friday – I am from Killarney – and I could not find one pub open from here to Killarney, and I know quite a lot of them. I cannot agree with Senator O'Toole.

Did the Senator take public transport to Killarney?

I support the pubs remaining closed on Good Friday.

Question, "That the words proposed to be deleted stand", put and declared carried.
Amendment declared lost.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Amendment No. 3 is in the name of Senator Costello. Amendments Nos. 3, 4, 5 and 7 to 16, inclusive, are related and may be taken together by agreement.

I move amendment No. 3:

In page 7, line 4, to delete "12.30 p.m." and substitute "7.30 a.m.".

The purpose of this amendment is along the lines we discussed in the previous amendments. The Minister is seeking to be specific in the manner in which he is prescribing the law and he is varying the times in relation to certain occasions. On St. Patrick's Day, for example, a public house cannot open at 7.30 in the morning. It must open at 12.30 p.m. and can remain open until 12.30 a.m. Why should there be a ban on a public house opening at a different time from every other day of the week? The Bill introduces uniformity in relation to opening times, which is welcome. Why should every pub not open at 7.30 a.m.? Why should we not allow pubs to open on St. Patrick's Day until 12.30 p.m.? What is the purpose of that? Likewise there are changes in the times for Christmas Eve and the eve of Good Friday. To continue the uniformity that has been established in relation to every other day of the week we should simply say that a pub may open and, in the words of Senator Quinn, that it is not prescriptive. It does not mean that every pub has to open but we are not laying down the law in terms of opening times on the eve or the morning of certain holidays.

The position in relation to closing times is equally traumatic in that the Minister is seeking to confuse the issue by saying that pubs must close at 11 o'clock in the evening on a Sunday, at 11.30 p.m. on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday, and at 12.30 a.m. on the other three days of the week. Why do we need to divide the week into three parts? Why can we not allow pubs to open until 12.30 a.m. and, subject to my earlier amendment, have a licensing authority determine, on the basis of a variety of solid criteria, the way that would operate in a less rigid fashion. We should allow general uniformity but provide flexibility within that.

Where the Minister has allowed uniformity in the opening hours he is now taking it away by making a prescription in relation to certain days that does not make sense. It is this plethora of prescription within the legislation that is unsatisfactory and gives the impression of Big Brother determining how it will operate. We have abolished winter time and the same hours will apply all year, which is extremely welcome. However, including anomalies in this fashion degrades the law and there is no justification for it.

We should look at these amendments as a package, whether to do with the Good Friday provision, the licensing responsibility of the District Court or, as Senator Connor's amendment suggests, a new licensing authority – a provision I would welcome and one to which the Minister indicated that he would be sympathetic in the long term. There is a plethora of restrictions which do not do justice to legislation with which we are trying to come out of the dark ages and to provide flexibility with a system that will work in the context of modern circumstances and needs.

With regard to opening hours, on the Continent it is possible to go to a bar and buy a cup of coffee, a Danish pastry or croissant, a cognac or any type of drink at any time in the morning. Is there any reason we cannot buy a drink at 7.30 a.m.? Why should we wait until 10.30 a.m.? It is a healthy option. Doctors say that a small cognac or brandy in the morning stimulates the arteries and veins. They say it is healthy for people going to work.

It would stimulate the arteries.

It would stimulate more than the arteries.

Such arrangements have not ruined the Continent. People there are able to do this in a much more sophisticated fashion. It is the norm in other countries to be able to have a drink early in the day. In the past we only had early opening houses for dockers and a few other professions. The Minister should examine this matter again. Section 3 is cluttered with over-prescription. Section 3(1) is a mess and he should get rid of it because it is not needed.

I support Senator Costello. My amendments merely deal with extended opening hours on Sunday nights. I am at odds with the findings of the sub-committee of the Oireachtas joint committee. This legislation proposes to extend trading time on Thursday, Friday and Sat urday nights until 12.30 a.m. but only until 11.30 p.m. on Sunday, Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday nights.

I have been told that Thursday night was included in the nights for late opening because it is a major leisure night in Dublin. Most people are paid on a Thursday and they want to go out, and Thursday night now forms part of the weekend leisure time. Sunday, particularly in rural Ireland, is part of the leisure pattern. More people go out for a social drink on a Sunday than on any other weekend day. In rural Ireland the weekend commences on Friday and people view Friday, Saturday and Sunday nights as times for social drinking and social intercourse.

I know the Minister will remind me that I am a member of the sub-committee and that it recommended that Sunday night trading should end at 11.30 p.m. Senator Bohan is a witness to these matters and he attended the sub-committee's meetings. He knows that unlike the Good Friday issue there was some division among committee members on Sunday trading hours. The majority agreed in the end that we should go for an earlier closing time on Sunday nights.

I have reflected on this matter and listened to the submissions made by the Vintners' Federation of Ireland and the vintners' organisation to which Senator Bohan belongs and they are all in favour of this. We should agree to this amendment and seek to have trading hours extended to 12.30 a.m. on Sunday night for the reasons I have outlined.

I welcome the main thrust of the Bill. Most of the vintners to whom I have spoken agree with 99% of it. I was somewhat dismayed to see the inordinate amount of time devoted to the question of closing on Good Friday. Publicans need one day off in the year. No publican that I have spoken to—

The Senator should stick to the amendments.

He can bring a very good perspective to this debate as he is a publican.

—wants to open their pub on Good Friday.

Sunday night closing times should be dealt with in this new legislation. The Minister had a major job to do because he had to deal with centuries of tradition in the licensed trade. Tradition is hard to break with legislation but he has done a good job. Nevertheless, we publicans would be delighted if he would agree to this amendment to allow Sunday night closing time to be the same as Thursday, Friday and Saturday nights. Sunday night is a night that most people are free to socialise. They do not see the need the go home early on that night. There is no logic behind the Minister's proposal to have an earlier closing time on Sunday night. That is one of the few objections we have to the Bill.

The object of this group of amendments, except Senator Connor's amendment which is confined to increasing Sunday closing time to 12.30 a.m., is to introduce a scheme of permitted hours for all the days of the week, except Good Friday and Christmas Day. All licensed premises would open from 7.30 a.m. until 12.30 a.m. on the following day. The sponsors of this amendment seem to believe that the cure is better than the disease. Had the Government considered it desirable or expedient in the public interest, or the public demanded that licensed premises remain open from 7.30 a.m. until 1 a.m. the following morning every night of the week, then that is what the Government would have provided for. The Government did not provide for such a regime of permitted hours because there is no demand for it. Neither is there a demand for it from the general public nor the various elements in the trade.

The reality is that the package of permitted hours put forward in the Bill is what represents the greatest level of consensus, not just a consensus from within the trade and among consumers but in large measure, if I may use that term, from within this House. They also reflect very closely the hours advocated by the Oireachtas joint committee which reviewed the licensing laws and whose report was very important to me when I carried out a detailed examination of this area. I am afraid that nothing that the Senators who advocate these permitted hours have said has convinced me in any way that the hours suggested in the amendments are warranted.

With specific regard to Senator Connor's amendment, the whole issue of Sunday night was considered very carefully. It was concluded that it would not be desirable to extend Sunday night trading hours to those of Thursday, Friday and Saturday. There is a very good reason for that. Whether we like it or not, there is a high rate of absenteeism in the labour force on Monday mornings. There is no question that the consumption of alcohol on Sundays is related to that high rate of absenteeism. If we had decided to proceed along the lines suggested by Senator Connor we would have accentuated that problem. This would be unfair to the people concerned, to employers and generally.

I do not accept the Minister's point, although I accept there was a recommendation in the sub-committee's report that pubs should close at 11.30 p.m. I ask the Minister – he should know, coming from a rural area himself – to take into account that Sunday night social drinking is important in rural areas. It is much more important in rural areas than Thursday night in the city. I do not take the point that absenteeism on Monday morning is related to late drinking on Sunday night. There must be a lot of absenteeism on Friday, therefore, because there is late drinking on Thursday night. For that reason, I agree that pubs should open at 10.30 a.m. I have not put my name to the amendments which refer to 7.30 a.m. Thursday night was added as a result of the Dublin lobby.

The Minister and Government Senators would agree with my point about Sunday night and its importance. What we are asking for here essentially brings the law into line with practice. We all know that intoxicating liquor is sold long after the permitted hours on Sunday nights in rural pubs. That is a rural more than a city phenomenon because there are strict union regulations regarding staff stopping the taps at 11.30 p.m. That is not the case with family-run businesses or those staffed by people outside the family in rural areas. I appeal to the Minister to concede on this issue. There should not be three separate closing times in a week – let us have two. Pubs should close at 11.30 p.m. on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday and 12.30 a.m. on Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday.

Part of the difference of opinion which I voiced earlier related to why there should be a difference in the sale of alcohol from the sale of anything else. Why should there not be open legislation permitting pubs to open any time they like? Senator Caffrey made the point that people might like some time or some days off. To repeat the case, the fact that pubs are permitted to open until a certain time does not mean they have to open until that time. However, the Minister has made a case, and I admit there is an alcohol problem which can be treated differently. He rather jokingly talked about the difference between buying a mackerel and buying something to drink but, in effect, I recognise, not only as an employer but as a citizen, that there is an alcohol problem and legislation is required in that regard. I was impressed by the Minister's statement that the Oireachtas joint committee made recommendations very close to this and, on that basis, I will make the case for less legislation and regulation. It appears that the Minister has got it right in this case or, if not, very close to it, although I understand Senator Connor's argument.

I oppose the level of restriction the Minister has imposed in this section. The only argument the Minister made in reply to Senator Connor's suggestion about closing at 12.30 a.m. on Sunday was that many people do not go to work on Monday morning or they go to work under the influence and so on. If the Minister is suggesting that late Sunday night drinking is the cause of people not working properly on Monday morning, surely there is an argument that pubs should be further limited regarding Sunday hours or perhaps closed entirely so that people can go to work on Monday morning. The Minister is extending pub hours on Thursdays and Fridays, and even though people work on Friday they will be able to drink until 12.30 a.m.

There is a tradition in rural areas – the Minister will be well aware of this – that people, including young people, go to the pub on a Sun day evening, perhaps more than any other day of the week. Totally independent of alcohol, they are more likely to go dancing on a Sunday evening than on a Friday or Saturday. That has always been a tradition in the country. The old Dublin tradition was to drink on a Sunday rather than on a Friday or Saturday. I can show the Minister around central Dublin – he might talk to the Taoiseach about this – and he will find that pubs are full to the brim on Sunday evening, more so than on weekend nights. This is the tradition and there is a demand for it. In his own words, the Minister should consider the same opening hours for Sunday.

I want a greater degree of overall uniformity with minimum individual prescription. The reason I opted for pubs to open at 7.30 a.m. is that there would be no obligation on them to open at that time. This is precisely the situation on the Continent and they have not gone under yet. This will be the situation in Britain, even though their laws are more restrictive than ours, but they are going towards deregulation. The Minister is out of line. We are introducing a new intoxicating liquor Bill which has been sitting around for the past couple of years and we will find that no sooner than it is introduced drastic changes will have to be made.

I do not agree that pubs should close at 11.30 p.m. on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. It should be 12.30 a.m. seven days a week. We are not compelling anybody to avail of those hours. We are providing uniformity and if the Minister accepts our other amendment, which I hope he will continue to consider, the licensing authority can allow the variations in terms of local circumstances, traffic and transport needs, public order and so on. That would bring us far more into line with the Continent and would provide for a more sophisticated regime. I do not believe it would lead to greater drinking. Under the present system people pile up their pints at 11 p.m. on Sunday night and then go elsewhere. They pour on to the streets and that is where the mayhem, which Senator Norris talked about, can occur. This would not occur if we had a more sophisticated regime.

There is no flexibility within the regime which I am seeking. It would improve our approach in dealing with alcoholism. A great number of deaths are related to alcoholism, as is the case in relation to smoking. Such issues must be dealt with in a more complex fashion. If we deal with our licensing laws in a sophisticated fashion we would deal more easily with the ills and evils which arise from abusing alcohol.

The Minister's explanation for the difference between the closing time on Sunday night and other nights does not stand up to critical analysis. First, the Government assumes that everyone works on a Monday. That is not the case. From now until next October, at any given time there will be hundreds of thousands of holidaymakers here to enjoy themselves and they will want to have a night out on Sunday night. They will not be concerned with working on Monday. The decision whether one drinks or goes home on a Sunday night rests with the individual.

As Senator Connor said, public houses will open late on Thursday night, yet we are not worried about absenteeism on Friday, which is a vital day in the working week. There is a certain amount of leniency in some areas on Monday mornings which would not be permitted on Friday mornings. I do not believe extending opening hours on Sunday night would lead to absenteeism in the workforce on Monday mornings. The Government is assuming everyone goes to work on Monday morning, but that is not the case. I do not wish to be repetitive but tourists are annoyed that they have to go home early on Sunday nights. The Minister should reconsider this amendment in the light of its implications for our major tourism industry.

Many people do not work on Sundays and take that opportunity to relax and enjoy themselves. It must be obvious to everybody that the propensity exists for people to drink earlier on Sundays. There is no doubt about that and we must accept it. The reason we decided that current closing hours on Sundays should remain, except for the period from 2 p.m. to 4 p.m., is that experience has shown that absenteeism in the workforce on Mondays is relatively high. The Government is of the view that to allow public houses to stay open later on Sunday nights would accentuate that problem.

Senator Costello stated that public houses in the Taoiseach's constituency are full on Sunday evening. The Taoiseach was adamant – he will not mind my saying this as I consulted with him on this legislation – that closing hours remain at 11 p.m. on Sunday night. He is strongly of the view that to extend those hours would increase absenteeism in the workforce and would not be in the best interests of society.

The Taoiseach visits three public houses on Sunday evening and he goes to work on Monday morning.

Acting Chairman

Senator Costello knows we are on Committee Stage of the Bill and will receive every opportunity to make his points.

I am placing on record the Taoiseach's very strong views regarding extended opening hours on Sundays.

Senator Caffrey made the argument that existing closing hours are not conducive to tourism and that everybody does not work on Mondays. It is true that everyone does not work on Monday but I cannot, in legislating, take localised factors into account. In the same way I cannot take individual positions as being the global situation. I have to legislate in general terms. I must legislate for the greater good as expressed by society. I would be very hesitant to subscribe to the view that the only reason tourists come to this country is to have a drink. That position would not stand up in any country. It may be true that some tourists find our licensing laws more restrictive than those in their own countries but that is not a valid reason for extending opening hours. Bord Fáilte states that extended opening hours is not a universal demand among tourists. Many members of the public, confronted with the prospect of public houses or clubs opening for longer hours, register their opposition on the basis of noise pollution and threats to their personal property from drink induced violence or common nuisance.

I have introduced a system of permitted opening times which will serve both the domestic and tourist market well. At the end of the day all interests cannot and will never be satisfied. I have to strike a balance and in doing so I must be very conscious of the deeply held views of a great number of people. I must try, in so far as I can, to strike a balance which is acceptable to society. We have succeeded in doing so in very difficult circumstances. More than two years of consultation took place before this legislation was published. I accept that not everyone will be satisfied but this is the best I could do.

I support the Minister's views. We have a serious problem with alcoholism. As Senator Quinn said, would that we could just leave it so that public houses opened and closed when it suited them. These regulations are as good as we are likely to come by.

I am disappointed with the Minister's attitude. We are asking for a small extension of the opening hours on Sunday nights. Such extensions are in existence even before the Act becomes law. Sunday night trading ceases at 11.30 p.m. with a half hour drinking up time. All we are asking for is that we bring the law into line with practice. There will always be difficulties with licensing hours and alcoholism or excessive drinking. Nevertheless, there is a need, certainly in rural Ireland, to extend the opening hours on Sunday night to those applied to the other three weekend nights. This is a new departure in the law. We have previously operated even hours of trading six nights of the week, with an earlier closing time on Sunday night. We are now to have later closing hours on Thursday, Friday and Saturday nights. Extended opening hours on Thursday night means nothing where I live and, I suggest, it means nothing where the Minister lives. Sunday night is very much part of the leisure pattern of a weekend.

It is difficult for me to argue with the Minister's point that I was a member of a committee which recommended, not unanimously but by a majority, that we operate earlier closing on Sunday nights. I was in favour of extending opening hours and I express that same opinion today.

I wish to correct the impression that we are extending the hours of opening on Sunday nights. We are not. Closing hours remain at 11 p.m. with a half hour drinking up time. We are altering the situation on Sunday afternoons between 2 p.m. and 4 p.m. because we recognise that many public houses now operate a lunch trade. We are not extending opening hours on Sunday night.

The contention was made by Senator Costello that Sunday night is the big night in rural areas for entertainment etc.

It was when I was growing up.

I have consulted very widely with various groups around the country on this legislation and night club owners have informed me that Saturday is the big night for socialising. In recognition of that, I am introducing in this legislation the power for the first time for the courts to grant special exemptions on a Saturday night into Sunday morning.

I support the Minister in this. It is well accepted that there are a number of factories in urban areas that have to reschedule their shifts on a Monday morning to take account of absenteeism, which is due to the amount of drinking that takes place on a Sunday night. People are free as individuals and the Minister cannot either stop or encourage people, just as one cannot legislate for people to be good, but one can certainly encourage them along the way a little. As we are developing an economy where people have a better work ethic then in the past, perhaps, the hours recommended for the Sunday night are reasonable.

On the point made by Senator Henry, we have a significant problem of alcoholism. I work in a hospital where there has been a renowned alcoholics programme for many years. One of the problems I have seen is the reduction in the age of alcoholics. When I started working there about 25 years ago, alcoholics were 60 or 65 years of age. They are now down to 20, 18 or 16 years of age. I would not agree with a blanket ban on people drinking but what the Minister has proposed in the Bill for Sunday nights is a good idea and we should support it.

I apologise if I gave the wrong impression. There is no change recommended in the law but the sub-committee recommended a time of 11.30 p.m. and my amendment seeks a 12.30 a.m. closing time. The Minister says there is evidence that attendance at work on a Monday morning is adversely affected by late drinking on a Sunday night. That may be true but the Minister has no scientific evidence for it because there is no scientific study, statistics or figures that relate to the effects of alcohol consumption in Ireland. I have submitted an amendment asking that the Minister's Department would, on an annual basis, be responsible for collecting and publishing statis tics, figures and outcomes relating to alcohol consumption in Ireland in order that we could formulate a better informed policy. I hope the Minister will agree with that amendment when we reach it.

Perhaps many people would share the Minister's impression but he has not answered my question adequately. If there is late drinking on a Thursday night, then there will be absenteeism on a Friday morning for the same reason. I cannot argue that there is or may be proven absenteeism on a Friday morning because of late drinking on Thursday night because I have no scientific evidence to prove the point. No State agency is researching it in an organised or scientific way.

I am puzzled by the Minister's defence of closing time at 11 p.m. on Sunday and the reason given that people are not able to get to work on Monday. If there was any logic in what the Minister was saying, then he should not be going ahead with a closing time of 11 p.m., he should be bringing the time back farther. The problem exists currently. What is the Minister doing to address it? All he is doing is saying that he will not aggravate it. There is a massive problem with people getting to work on a Monday morning and he will still allow pubs to close at 11 p.m. on a Sunday. Where is the logic in what the Minister is saying?

Surely, one could argue that if people are not getting to work or are getting there in rag order on a Monday morning there must be a vast abuse of the law if they are going to drink after 11 p.m. Perhaps he could argue it further, that if we are to have uniform opening hours across the week, perhaps the pressure will not be on the Sunday night. The Minister's position is untenable because the existing regime, according to him, produces a difficulty on the Monday morning, but he is not going to make it better or worse, he is going to leave as it is. Surely he should respond to it, yet he is defending it as part of the merits of the legislation.

On Senator Caffrey's point about tourism, we have millions entering this country every year, especially in the period from St. Patrick's Day to October. If the Minister was consistent in his logic, he would make special provision for those people who will not be working on a Monday morning. Why can he not make provision for them? The Minister has all sorts of prescriptions in this legislation but I cannot perceive the logic to the prescriptions is not perceivable.

Let us be fair and pragmatic. One could not put up a sign in a public house at 11 p.m. to the effect that people who are not working tomorrow morning should go this way.

Why have the 11 p.m.? That is creating the problems.

Question, "That the figure proposed to be deleted stand", put and declared carried.
Amendment declared lost.

I move amendment No. 4:

In page 7, line 7, to delete "10.30 a.m." and substitute "7.30 a.m.".

Question, "That the figure proposed to be deleted stand", put and declared carried.
Amendment declared lost.

I move amendment No. 5:

In page 7, line 7, to delete "11.30 p.m." and substitute "12.30 a.m. on the following day".

Question, "That the figure proposed to be deleted stand", put and declared carried.
Amendment declared lost.

I move amendment No. 6:

In page 7, line 8, to delete "and the eve of Good Friday".

Question, "That the words proposed to be deleted stand", put and declared carried.
Amendment declared lost.

I move amendment No. 7:

In page 7, line 9, to delete "10.30 a.m." and substitute "7.30 a.m.".

Question, "That the figure proposed to be deleted stand", put and declared carried.
Amendment declared lost.

I move amendment No. 8:

In page 7, line 9, to delete "11.30 p.m." and substitute "12.30 a.m. on the following day".

Question, "That the figure proposed to be deleted stand", put and declared carried.
Amendment declared lost.

I move amendment No. 9:

In page 7, line 13, to delete "10.30 a.m." and substitute "7.30 a.m.".

Question, "That the figure proposed to be deleted stand", put and declared carried.
Amendment declared lost.

I move amendment No. 10:

In page 7, line 15, to delete "12.30 p.m." and substitute "7.30 a.m.".

Question, "That the figure proposed to be deleted stand", put and declared carried.
Amendment declared lost.

I move amendment No. 11:

In page 7, to delete lines 17 to 19 and substitute the following:

"(v) any other Sunday between 12.30 p.m. and 12.30 a.m. on the following day;”.

Question put: "That the words proposed to be deleted stand."

Bohan, Eddie.Bonner, Enda.Callanan, Peter.Cregan, JohnDardis, John.Farrell, Willie.Finneran, Michael.Fitzgerald, Tom.Fitzpatrick, Dermot.Gibbons, Jim.Glynn, Camillus.Henry, Mary.

Keogh, Helen.Kett, Tony.Kiely, Daniel.Leonard, Ann.Lydon, Don.Moylan, Pat.Norris, David.O'Brien, Francis.O'Donovan, Denis.Ó Murchú, Labhrás.Ormonde, Ann.Quinn, Feargal.Ross, Shane.

Níl

Burke, Paddy.Caffrey, Ernie.Coghlan, Paul.Connor, John.Coogan, Fintan.Cosgrave, Liam T.

Costello, Joe.Doyle, Joe.Hayes, Tom.Manning, Maurice.McDonagh, Jarlath.Ridge, Thérèse.Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine.

Tellers: Tá, Senators T. Fitzgerald and Keogh; Níl, Senators Burke and Ridge.
Question declared carried.
Amendment declared lost.

I move amendment No. 12:

In page 7, line 18, to delete "12.30 p.m." and substitute "7.30 a.m.".

Question, "That the figure proposed to be deleted stand", put and declared carried.
Amendment declared lost.

I move amendment No. 13:

In page 7, line 19, to delete "11.00 p.m." and substitute "12.30 a.m. on the following day".

Question, "That the figure proposed to be deleted stand", put and declared carried.
Amendment declared lost.

I move amendment No. 14:

In page 7, line 21, to delete "10.30 a.m." and substitute "7.30 a.m.".

Question, "That the figure proposed to be deleted stand", put and declared carried.
Amendment declared lost.

I move amendment No. 15:

In page 7, line 21, to delete "11.30 p.m." and substitute "12.30 a.m. on the following day".

Question, "That the figure proposed to be deleted stand", put and declared carried.
Amendment declared lost.

I move amendment No. 16:

In page 7, line 23, to delete "10.30 a.m." and substitute 7.30 a.m."

Question, "That the figure proposed to be deleted stand", put and declared carried.
Amendment declared lost.
Section 3 agreed to.
SECTION 4.
Government amendment No. 17:
In page 7, lines 32 to 42, to delete paragraph(a) and substitute the following new paragraph:
(a)by the substitution of the following for subsection (1) (as substituted by section 8 of the Act of 1960 and as amended by section 3 of the Act of 1962 and section 3 of the Act of 1995):
‘(1)Where any business other than the sale of intoxicating liquor (in this section referred to as non-licensed business) is carried on in any premises to which an on-licence or an off-licence is attached, the opening or keeping open of the premises for the purpose of carrying on the non-licensed business shall be permitted at any time."'.

This amendment concerns the prohibition on the hours during which non-licensed business can be carried out by licensed premises. I referred to this earlier during a response to Senator Quinn. The effect of section 3 of the Intoxicating Liquor Act, 1927, even allowing for the amendments to that Act which are incorporated in section 4 of the Bill, is that the hours of trading of supermarkets, including small independent supermarkets and convenience stores, are regulated not just in respect of alcoholic products but also in respect of other products that constitute the bulk of the trade of those outlets, for example, groceries. This means that premises which engage in mixed trading are restricted with regard to the hours during which their non-licensed business can be carried out.

In section 4 as it stands, I have provided for a certain relaxation in that supermarkets with full off-licences attached may open for non-licensed trade at 7.30 a.m. However, having listened to some of the arguments put forward on Second Stage, notably by Senator Quinn, and following consultations I have had with the retail group of IBEC, I have given this matter further consideration. I am convinced that the licensing code should, as far as is possible, avoid controlling the times during which supermarkets and convenience stores may open to engage in their business of selling groceries and other non-alcoholic products.

The current law has created difficulties for stores and consumers alike. To comply with the law many stores have created separate licensed areas for the sale of intoxicating liquor. This means that while those stores may open their non-licensed premises whenever they wish, customers who frequent these stores are inconvenienced by having to make two separate purchases in two distinct parts of the same store. This has created a great deal of understandable dissatisfaction among customers and, in addition, many small independent stores would not have the resources or the space to make such structural alterations to their premises.

On the other hand, stores that have licensed their entire premises are prohibited from opening for the sale of non-alcoholic products at certain times. Moreover what is now clear more than ever is that the shopping patterns of consumers are changing in line with new work patterns – reference to this was also made on Second Stage here. It was pointed out that some major employers in the e-commerce and other fields operate shift work which means that people could opt to do their shopping at 6 a.m. or 7 a.m. While I believe the new arrangements in the Bill go a good deal of the way towards easing the situation, I am determined to introduce legislation which will stand the test of time. For these reasons, therefore, I have decided to remove from the licensing code that provision which stipulates when a licensed shop may open to sell non-alcoholic products. I am proposing the amendment to section 4 which will allow premises to open at any time to engage in their business of selling groceries and other non-alcoholic products. The times such premises could open for the sale of intoxicating liquor would, of course, continue to be regulated by virtue of paragraph (b) of section 4.

I recommend this amendment to Senators and I believe it may receive support from all sides of the House.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
Sitting suspended at 1.30 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.
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