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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 17 May 2000

Vol. 163 No. 7

Aviation Regulation Bill, 2000: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I am pleased to introduce the Aviation Regulation Bill, 2000, to this House. This Bill provides the basis for independent regulation of State airports, a sector which continues to play a critical part in the economy and supports growth in so many areas. The purpose of the Bill is to establish a regulatory body to be known as the Commission for Aviation Regulation.

In total, the new commission will have responsibility for five different areas of policy. I am glad that we have a chance to discuss it here because people may think the regulator is concerned only with airport charges but he has wider responsibilities. The five areas are the approval of airport and air traffic control charges, the regulation of the ground handling market at airports, the granting of operating licences to air carriers established in Ireland, the administration of the rules governing the allocation of take-off and landing slots at airports and the licensing and bonding of travel agents and tour operators. Before the Senators interject to say that I am being sexist, the interviews for the post of regulator have been held and the person has been appointed. He is acting in an interim temporary capacity and will become the established regulator once the Bill is enacted.

Before speaking in detail, I would like to outline briefly the rationale for embarking on a new regulatory regime for the area. For some time, there has been a considerable focus on the issue of airport charges. Airlines, as one would expect, seek to have charges as low as possible to assist them to drive growth in their business and increase their traffic flows. Airports are also commercial operations and need a reasonable level of charges to meet their operating costs, pay staff, maintain facilities and fund new developments.

From Aer Rianta's perspective, while a small number of relatively minor changes in specific charges have been approved, there has been no increase in the landing and passenger tariffs which were approved by my predecessor, John Wilson, in 1987. Since that time, Aer Rianta has offered a range of discounts to the standard level of charges which have helped to add new routes and new business in and out of Ireland, thereby contributing to the growth in our overall passenger numbers. Discounts are also available in relation to seasonal variations on traffic as well as aircraft parking.

Given that it was signalled in 1992 by the Council of European Finance Ministers that duty free facilities would end in mid-1999, Aer Rianta always intended that the discount schemes would end when duty free sales ended. Airlines were aware of this fact. Aer Rianta took the necessary commercial decision to end the discount scheme last year when faced with substantial revenue losses which resulted from the abolition of EU duty free sales. Yesterday I brought to Cabinet Aer Rianta's results for the year ending 1999 and it will launch its report next week at its AGM.

In addition, Aer Rianta decided it was time it carried out a total reappraisal of the structure and basis for its airport charges. The business has changed substantially since 1987 with the liberalisation of air travel in Europe and the advent of low cost airlines. It used to be a huge expense to travel but it proves the old adage that competition benefits the consumer. Once competition was introduced on the airlines prices dropped. Travel to London now costs much less than one-quarter of what it used to.

I recognised the difficulties to which the absence of an up-to-date critical analysis of the charges issue had given rise and I saw the need for a fresh independent examination of the issue. In looking at the situation, it was clear to me that the central issue was the potential for conflict between the shareholder role, whoever was the Minister of the day, and the regulatory role and that this would have to be addressed if real and enduring solutions were to be found to the charges issue. The difficulties of having the roles of shareholder and regulator vested in one Department have been debated for a considerable time. There have been many arguments for and against the separation of those two roles. I took the decision that the best way to resolve the issue was to separate them, as most European countries have done. The UK has had a regulator for approximately ten years, as have most other countries.

I therefore put to Government my proposals for the independent economic regulation of Irish airports and for airport charges to be one of the areas of policy addressed by the regulator. This is a necessary measure for the reasons I have just mentioned and is without prejudice to the future Government decision on the strategic future of Aer Rianta. No matter what the future of Aer Rianta, the need for a regulator is very clear and stands alone as an issue of merit.

The remaining area on the charges front, which has been added to the regulator's brief, is the determination of a cap for certain air traffic control charges, specifically those imposed by the Irish Aviation Authority for services rendered to aircraft at the approach and take off stages. These charges are levied at the airport stage, as it were, and are part of the normal airline costs. It was, therefore, a logical progression to include the regulation of these charges, together with the Aer Rianta charges, in the regulator's remit. Although the en route charges are also part of the normal cost base of the airlines, the principles upon which these charges are based are determined by the relevant international aviation bodies and are imposed for the use of Irish airspace as opposed to the use of Irish airports.

There were also a number of other areas where the Department carried out a regulatory function, either a licensing or market access function. This led us to add to the portfolio of the regulator the areas of air carrier licensing, regulation of the ground handling market, allocation of take-off and landing slots and the licensing and bonding of the travel trade sector.

This brings me back to the beginning when I said there were five main areas of policy and decision-making which would be included in the regulatory commission's brief. In summary, we have assigned to the regulator all the relevant aspects from an economic perspective of the chain of events in which the carriers are involved, stretching from the licensing stage through to the allocation of departure and arrival slots and up to the regulation of ground handling and the determination of charges.

The objective of the legislation in respect of the Irish airports is to ensure that regulation of charges is carried out in a manner which will facilitate the development of cost-effective and efficient services which will meet the needs of the users. Regulation is to a large extent a balancing act, one which seeks to address the interests of the parties being regulated and the rights and requirements of the users of the services supplied by those parties. The central issue in relation to regulation is how to achieve that balance. I suppose it is not possible to achieve a proper balance for all sides.

In terms of Aer Rianta, the State airport authority, we have sought to provide that regulation takes into account the various aspects of its role and function. Before framing a prices cap, the commission will have regard to the necessary levels of investment in airport infrastructure, reasonable rates of return on capital employed and the level of Aer Rianta's operating costs, including their employees and so on. From the airlines' per spective, we have sought to ensure that the reasonable interests of users of airport services are catered for. In particular, the level and quality of Aer Rianta's services as well as its effective use of resources will be an important part of the analysis conducted by the commission prior to making a decision on charges. The views of the airlines will be an essential element of the commission's work. Before making a determination on charges, the commission will be obliged under the legislation to engage in a consultation process with all interested parties and is further obligated to outline in a published report the basis on which a determination is made.

In relation to the commission's role in air traffic control charges, we have introduced measures in the Bill which will balance the competing interests of the service provider and the service user. Among those issues are the levels of investment in services by the Irish Aviation Authority and the quality of the service from the user's perspective. I will leave aside the charges issue to outline the key elements of overall thinking in framing this initiative. I have endeavoured to strike a middle ground but it remains to be seen if on Committee Stage here and in the Dáil other ideas will be put forward which I can certainly consider.

The route I have chosen draws in the required combination of measures to allow for regulation to take place in that middle ground area. The Bill contains specific references to issues to which the commission will have due regard such as policy concepts in the Department's strategy statement and so on. All the interested parties and relevant Government Departments were consulted. The Bill is framed to provide the commission with the appropriate level of flexibility and discretion in approaching the task of setting a charges cap. However, this flexible approach is predicated on the regulator operating in an open and transparent manner so that the certainty and clarity required by the regulated entities and the sector in general is an inherent part of the process.

Clearly there must be accountability. This is one of my hobby horses on which I dwelt when dealing with telecommunications legislation in this House. The 1996 Act, which set up the present telecommunications regulator, who is very highly motivated and able, does not include any accountability measures. The regulator was right in saying that she could not be compelled by law to come before an Oireachtas committee. Nevertheless, she did choose to come and has been a very good contributor to it. This Bill provides for accountability because it would be madness to lop off a huge segment of Irish life, in this case, telecommunications, and say the Minister is no longer accountable, and nor is anybody else, when the decisions being taken are intrinsic to everyday life. Similarly, when we dealt with electricity last year we provided in legislation for accountability. Now we are including such provision in this Bill. Not alone must regulators appear before Oireachtas committees whenever they are called, their reports must be transparent and their policy objectives clear.

This is an issue that has already arisen in other European countries and it will arise increasingly here. Where we have open markets and liberalisation there has to be regulation, but regulators must be accountable. It would make no sense to abrogate democratic responsibility, to give it to somebody else and say that we need never talk about it again. That would be all wrong. I issued a paper setting out a comprehensive set of policy proposals on governance and accountability, on which we received 28 submissions, some of which have been printed. Now we will move to legislate. That is about regulation in general.

This is the first legislation establishing an independent regulatory office. When we were dealing with electricity last year we did not have the policy proposals. This Bill includes the recommendations from the proposal process which include in particular the issues of transparency, independence and accountability. Independence and accountability are two sides of the same coin. It is important for the development of the market that there is confidence in the whole regulatory process. This is achieved by ensuring that a regulator has the necessary independence to do the job in the manner in which it should be done. That is not the same as saying that a regulator's office is free to behave as it sees fit in all respects. It would not be acceptable in a democratic environment to give to a regulator quite considerable powers and not make him or her accountable for the performance of their functions. I am confident that we have struck the middle ground in these proposals. Again I await with great interest what people have to say.

Let me turn to the main provisions of the Bill. Sections 1 to 4 contain the standard provisions. Sections 5 to 7 provide for the establishment of the commission and for its independence. Sections 8 and 9 assign the other four functions. Section 10 provides for ministerial authority to issue policy directions of a general nature. Section 11 provides for the appointment of the members of the commission. It provides that a commissioner may be removed by the Minister, who shall inform the House of the reasons for removal. Additionally, the established policy of prohibiting employment in the regulated industry for 12 months after leaving office has been continued.

Sections 12 and 13 provide for the recruitment of staff by the commission and the appointment of a deputy commissioner. Section 14 empowers the commission to engage consultants if it wishes. Section 15 addresses the issue of ethical behaviour and controls on staff interests. I drew attention to the importance of these measures in the policy proposals document. The commission is obliged to publish a code of conduct in respect of staff members which will provide guidelines for staff behaviour in respect of business.

Section 16 outlines the usual prohibition in respect of election at local, national or European level. Sections 17 and 18 place a requirement on both members of the commission and staff or consultants to make an initial declaration as to their interests and to make ongoing declarations of interests as appropriate. There is a potential for conflict, or a perceived conflict, between the work of regulatory authorities and the other interests of persons who become members or employees of such bodies. That came up a short time ago in relation to telecommunications.

Section 19 provides for the standard penalties for the unauthorised disclosure of information. Sections 20 and 21 allow for the creation of superannuation schemes. Sections 22 to 25 provide for the resources and revenues of the commission. In line with arrangements for existing regulators, my Department will provide for the start-up costs in terms of staff, premises and equipment. These costs will be recouped when the commission is up and running.

It is intended to assign staff from the Department to carry out the functions being transferred. These officers will remain staff of the Department. That is how the staff wish it to be. I had several meetings with staff members in the telecommunications offices and this has been worked out. This arrangement ensures the continuity of staff experience, something which is very important.

The main provision in relation to funding is the commission's power to impose a levy on the regulated entities, subject to the obligation to set the levy at an amount which just covers the operational costs and expenses of the office. The commission may borrow money but the Department of Finance has a say in what it may borrow.

Financial reporting is an important mechanism for ensuring propriety, transparency and accountability. Section 26 deals with the reporting measures in terms of financial accounts. The format of these is to be agreed with my Department and the Department of Finance. They will be subject to the scrutiny of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Section 27 places a requirement on the commission to report to the Minister whenever requested to do so. Section 28 empowers the commission to require the separation of accounts in respect of any activities regulated by the commission. Section 29 gives scope to the commission to deal directly with its requirements for office premises. Section 30 provides that the commission shall have a seal which shall be used to authenticate documents. I hope it will do so by encryption.

Part III deals with the primary purpose of the legislation, the regulation of airport and air traffic control charges. Section 31 outlines the scope of the regulation. It will apply to airports having more than one million passengers annually. This threshold may be varied by ministerial order.

Section 32 outlines the nature and scope of the regulator's role. The framework in which a deter mination is made is laid out. Section 33 outlines the regulatory objectives which will be addressed by the commission prior to making a determination on airport charges. Section 34 amends the Air Navigation and Transport (Amendment) Act, 1998, by substituting the commission for the Minister. Section 35 deals with the regulation of aviation terminal services charges. Section 36 sets out the broad policy framework. Section 37 amends the Irish Aviation Authority Act, 1993. Section 38 addresses the issue of the review of decisions by the commission. It is provided that the only avenue of challenge is by way of judicial review. I do not know about that. It is something that will be examined on Committee Stage both here and in the Dáil. Most determinations have an appeal mechanism.

Section 39 is an enforcement procedure whereby the commission may apply for a High Court order to ensure compliance with its decisions and requests. Section 40 is a standard procedure outlining methods by which a notice may be served on interested parties. Section 41 governs the role and powers of authorised officers. Section 42 empowers them to procure a search warrant if necessary. Section 43 provides the standard indemnification in relation to the bona fide performance of his or her duties by a member of staff. Section 44 provides that, in line with company law requirements, any offence committed by a body corporate with the knowledge and consent of a director or officer of that body shall be regarded as an offence committed by that person as well as the body corporate. Section 45 provides that in line with usual practice, summary offences are prosecutable by the commission.

Section 46 amends the IAA Act and section 47 provides that the commission will be subject to the freedom of information legislation. Section 48 amends a typographical error in the Air Navigation and Transport (Amendment) Act, 1998. Section 49 amends the Air Navigation and Transport Act, 1973, by inserting a provision in relation to the power of arrest for air rage offences.

In conclusion, I will summarise where we are in the overall aviation picture. All plans are made up of a number of different steps and stages, and the aviation picture is no different. I spoke earlier about Aer Rianta and we are considering all its proposals. It is fitting that I pay tribute to the very important role airports play in our economy and to the hard work and dedication of the people at all levels in State and other airports who have helped to make them a success story. As an island nation we are critically dependent on efficient, reliable, cost effective airports which can meet the demands that our growing economy continues to make across all sectors. The measures in the Bill recognise the role which our airports have to play in response to those demands.

In relation to the Irish Aviation Authority, we are all aware that Ireland has rightfully enjoyed a good reputation as a provider of quality, safe and efficient air traffic services. Those attributes will continue to be important under the regulatory regime. I am always afraid to say our airlines or railways are safe for fear of anticipating an unfortunate incident.

On the Aer Lingus front, the Government decided, against the backdrop of a liberalised aviation industry, the requirements of a single European market and the commercial requirements of a modern airline, that the best way forward was to put in place arrangements for an initial public offering of the company. Preparatory work is going on to facilitate this process. I hope developments will take place towards the end of this year or the beginning of next year. This will depend on the state of the markets. A flotation will not take place if the time is not appropriate.

The regulatory measures which the Bill is putting in place are a key element in the aviation picture and one which will help to bring about, in tandem with other initiatives, the attainment of our objectives for the sector overall.

Across party lines, there is a great belief in our airports. Apart from the smaller regional airports, all of which are doing well, the State airports have a very good record of providing an excellent service. There has been a wonderful mingling of ideas and initiatives among board members, State employees and successive board chairmen. Ministers hold responsibility for a short time but the permanent government remains. I commend the civil servants who have dealt with airport regulation for many years.

I commend the Bill to the House and I thank the House for the courtesy extended to me.

On a point of information, Sir, how much time has been allowed for the debate?

No closing time has been set. Each party spokesperson may speak for 15 minutes and other Members may speak for ten minutes.

Is the Intoxicating Liquor Bill to be debated today?

Acting Chairman

It is.

I suppose there is no closing time on that either.

The Minister may be here all night if all the Members choose to contribute.

I welcome the Minister to the House and I thank her for her comprehensive explanation of the detail of the Bill. I see no reference to the regulator in the text of the Bill. The word "regulator" is not used although the Minister made several references to the regulator. Can she enlighten me on this matter?

A commission of three is to be appointed. In my speech I referred to the chairman of the commission as the regulator. It was decided to spread the burden of regulation among the three members of the commission.

I thank the Minister. This is extremely important legislation. It is known that Mr. Bill Prasifka is the appointee-in-waiting and will be appointed when this legislation is enacted. I accept that he will need assistance because much research and study will be required to ensure balance and fair play between the customer and supplier of the service. The Department has been doing this work for many years. The conflict of interest which has existed because of the interest of the Department in the national airline has been removed and I welcome this. The Minister can now look at the position of Aer Rianta in a different light while the regulatory function of her Department is assumed by the regulator. I hope she will take this into consideration when she continues her examination of the Warburg Dillon Read report. I suggest that she place that report on a shelf at the back of her office and leave it there. I suspect she may have done so already and I would commend her if she did so. I do not expect the chairman of Aer Rianta to agree with me but I suggest that we, the politicians, put pressure on him in this regard.

I am amazed to discover that the Bill deals with infrastructure on the ground and not with a wider range of issues relating to aviation. I expected the Bill to deal with the quality and safety of airlines and air traffic control. I realise those matters are dealt with in other legislation but why are all aviation matters not dealt with in a single Bill? This would give the issues clarity.

Charges are fundamental for the viability of airlines and airports. I will be interested to see the effect of the abolition of duty free sales at airports on Aer Rianta's profits. The abolition will have specific effects on certain airports. I speak in particular of Cork and Shannon Airports. The initial legislation to establish the airports and Aer Rianta contained a social dimension.

To provide for balanced regional development.

The Bill provides the Minister with the power to give general policy directions to the commission. That is very important. Given that we are an island nation and that transport is such a key part of the economy, especially the cost of transport from the peripheral regions to the Continent, it is important that the Minister will use section 10 to give a focus to balanced regional development as it affects airport policy, including charges.

Some would argue that such an approach would be contrary to EU regulations. However, the EU has a regional policy and issues regional policy directives. We should not confine ourselves to aviation regulations. We need to look at how the regulations impact on regional development. I am sure the Minister and her Department will be in a position to integrate these aspects and will advise the commissioner on how to use them to best advantage.

The Minster referred to the historical background to the legislation. In the 1950s and 1960s Shannon Airport subsidised Dublin Airport. The Minister can check the records to establish that. It is important that the three airports – Cork, Dublin and Shannon – are maintained as an integrated unit, that there continues to be an interdependence between them and that one assists the other with regard to infrastructural development. Good work is ongoing on this aspect in all three airports and I hope it continues.

We need to ensure that more cost effective airlines use Shannon and Cork Airports to bring more people to the regions and provide greater access from these areas to commercial points in mainland Europe. At present access costs to certain parts of England and Europe are prohibitive, which is unacceptable. I hope the Minister will address that. I compliment her for engaging in extensive tours of all the airports. She has met various interested parties on a variety of matters. She should be aware that inaccurate information on certain airports has been given to her by certain groups.

Sections 17 and 18 provide that commissioners, staff members and consultants must make a disclosure of interests where they have a pecuniary or other beneficial interest in any matter which is to be considered by the commission. The importance of that cannot be underestimated. It is vital that these provisions are abided by.

I welcome the section dealing with unauthorised disclosure. It is very important to have confidence in a reliable staff within the commission and that disclosure of information is not used to the advantage of competitors of airlines or airports. It is also important that those involved are above board and are not open to influence other than to the views expressed by the Minister on the public good.

Will the Minister elaborate on what is meant by section 23 which provides that the commission may make regulations imposing a levy on relevant undertakings to fund the operating costs of the commission? How does it intend to secure such funding? It is an important section.

Section 33 refers to the policy objectives to be addressed by the commission in determining airport charges. If the Minister were to use this section as the only definition for policy objectives she would, when making decisions in this area, be confined to the provisions set out in section 33 (a) to (g). These deal with detail such as capital, profits, costs incurred and the cost element of running an airport, rather than the broader regional policy development issue. That is not mentioned in this section. I ask the Minister to include a provision that will give her the scope to look beyond the issues raised here. This is necessary to enable the concept of balanced regional development to proceed. It must be included in the overall policy objective.

I am disappointed that the special concessions on charges, which could have been given to air lines, have been lifted by Aer Rianta. Some may disagree with that. Special concessions were granted to airlines starting up at Shannon Airport or to airlines starting a new route from the airport which brought in additional passengers.

I wish, Sir, you would stop talking because you are distracting me.

Acting Chairman

I apologise.

That puts you in your box, Sir.

As a former teacher, I am sure the Minister would agree that she liked to get the full attention of her pupils.

Acting Chairman

That is the problem with the country – teachers everywhere.

How dare you.

Special concessions were granted to airlines in relation to new destinations. They have now been lifted and will no longer apply. Their removal creates a disadvantage for airports such as Shannon. I hope the Minister will look at this.

On the question of airport terminal service charges, Dublin Airport is a money spinner. The volume of traffic through the airport is huge and the higher the volume the lower the cost per passenger. The same volume of traffic does not use Cork or Shannon airports, yet a similar infrastructure is required. The cost of maintaining it on a per capita basis is higher and this could create difficulties for both airports. I hope it will not hinder their development nor the volume of passenger traffic using them. There is a worry that airlines will use Dublin Airport in preference on the basis that Cork and Shannon are more expensive. We must be vigilant in ensuring that this does not arise. Current free market conditions allow airlines to make such decisions but they have not been made under the Minister's jurisdiction. It is important that the present position is protected under the new regime.

While it may be argued that these developments are inevitable because of EU policy, it is important to note that there is a regional development aspect to all levels of EU policy. The argument that we are the only island nation in the EU has been repeatedly made in this House, in the other House and elsewhere. We raised the difficulties of a transport infrastructure for an island nation with the then EU Commissioner for Transport, Neil Kinnock, when he visited this House. We get a stock reply to these concerns to the effect that mobile infrastructure cannot be grant aided whereas fixed infrastructure will. Support will be given to the ports but not the ships. I am sure the same applies to air travel – support will be given to the airports but not the airlines.

I ask the Minister to continue to make our case in Europe, because it is unfair that we, as the only island nation, have to go by sea or air to get to mainland Europe when others have the facility of road transport. We are working at a disadvantage. This important matter which must be consistently and continuously highlighted.

With regard to the staff of the different airports and how they are treated, I am very concerned that certain sections of the Minister's speech and its general direction might suggest that there is a move towards an IPO or a consideration thereof. Some sections of the Bill and elements of the Minister's speech might suggest that. It is very important that the staff of Aer Rianta are fully protected and that the support systems in the airports, such as flight kitchen support whereby airlines are serviced from flight kitchens operated by Aer Rianta, are protected. I hope that the aviation regulator or commissioner will not have any control over the costs of servicing the airline, such as providing meals and other services required on landing. The regulator should not have a say in that aspect of the business. Those aspects should be left to Aer Rianta who are managing the airports well. Such facilities should remain in their control and under their management.

On the fixing of prices and the assessment, the formula is very clearly defined and section 32 goes through the airport charges, how they should be decided and the length of time for which they shall be in force. It is important that there is a specific methodology under which the decision will be taken on how charges will be allocated and decided.

With regard to airlines who provide services with low cost fares, there were discussions and court cases concerning Dublin Airport and the slots provided to Ryanair as against those for Aer Lingus. Fair play should be seen to be applied across the board. Aer Lingus works with certain airlines but not with others and will do ground handling for certain airlines but not for others. It is important that Aer Rianta should service all airlines equally to provide the best value for the customers and the passengers. This matter should be examined by the Minister. We will return to the finer details of the Bill in due course.

I welcome the Minister to the House and I welcome this important Bill which is urgently needed, as she has so strenuously asserted and with which I agree. I am delighted she has initiated it in Seanad Éireann. It is a quite substantial Bill with 49 sections. Recently, the aviation debate has been publicly aired with increasing frequency, particularly between Ryanair and Aer Rianta. It has taken on a significant robustness.

The Senator is being kind.

The Minister has received voluminous submissions and counter-submissions relating to the issues. I assure her that the members of the Joint Committee on Public Enterprise and Transport have also received voluminous submissions. If I thank her for anything today on behalf of the country, it is for the measures she is now taking that will hopefully eliminate the need for these voluminous submissions and the mountains of paper which her Department must have, which politicians must read and on which we must exercise judgments and that we can proceed with other matters. I am fully confident that the innovative initiative she is bringing forward today will quickly eliminate the robust marketing exercises that have continued apace. Over the past year or two, the media have also joined in this debate, as the Minister is well aware.

I commend the Minister on the speed with which she has confronted these issues in this Bill. Essentially, it is a case of the shareholders' role versus the regulator's role and she has gone into that in some depth. I will not presume to do so. There is also the issue of regulatory accountability on which the Minister published a policy proposal recently.

We are all aware of the controversy in the newspapers, in particular Ryanair publicly airing its concerns on charges. As an airline it felt that it needed to have the lowest possible charges to enable it to drive growth and to bring in new business. That is a fair point of view. The Aer Rianta point of view is the other side of the coin. From an airport authority's perspective, it must have reasonable charges to fund capital expenditure to enable the development of infrastructure and to provide more modern and up to date services. The argument of these seemingly divergent objectives of the main players involved have been ongoing for some time.

At this early stage it is appropriate to remind ourselves of a not insignificant fact about airport charges. The charges, for example, that were approved in the late 1980's are, more or less, those still in place today. Additional charges have not been approved since then by the relevant Minister. On the contrary, over that time Aer Rianta brought in a number of discounts for the airlines and the standard rate is at a discount for various reasons. It took these initiatives mainly to drive new growth and to create new routes.

In the midst of all this controversy, previous Ministers did not decide to confront the issue – I am sure I will not be corrected on that. If memory serves me correctly – not that it always does with the greatest degree of accuracy – I recall the previous Minister but one threatening to serve or foist doses of salts on these protagonists. Since I have no expertise in the areas of shareholder role versus regulator role, my poor interpretation of the English language still fails me on what doses of salts could do to commercial or semi-State organisations, such as Aer Rianta and others. Anyway, the salts did not appear to work.

How does one know?

They must have dissolved into thin air before they reached their intended targets. The "salt initiative" is the only one I have heard of to address this protracted, ongoing problem.

The Senator is hallucinating a little.

Hallucinating? It could be that again my memory is not at its best. If the Senator says I am hallucinating, who am I to contradict a woman of her standing and undoubted expertise, knowledge and background in this area?

Of course, yes.

I would not presume to take issue with her on it and I will very humbly acquiesce.

On a more serious and relevant note, the Minister decided at a very early stage in her administration that a fresh, modern approach was required and to put fair, reasonable and balanced mechanisms in place to thrash out the issues in an objective manner and adjudicate on them once and for all. The Minister decided to create an independent regulator whose main functions and focus will be the creation of an independent regulation of the services. I am convinced that the regulator's work will put to bed, once and for all, the ongoing, old arguments that it was not fair that the shareholder and the regulator were one and the same, as the Minister mentioned. It is obvious from the Bill that the Minister has decided the time is right to have an independent regulator, to examine all the issues and to make independent, transparent decisions on them with leave to appeal, for which there is a mechanism in the Bill.

Yes, there is judicial review.

Yes, judicial review. The regulator will be the final arbitrator reporting to the Minister and the Joint Committee on Public Enterprise and Transport. That is a very important initiative she has taken, a provision which was omitted from a similar Bill in 1996 dealing with a different service.

This fresh new approach is an excellent idea. The regulator will be non-partisan and will take a fresh look at the issues involved. The Minister put her proposal to Cabinet last summer, received the go-ahead and immediately set about putting the heads of the Bill together. In the meantime, she also appointed a regulator designate.

I am delighted to hear her mention the other new functions which she has assigned to the new regulator. I will not repeat them – the Minister referred to them in great detail – but the regulator will have a broad and important portfolio of responsibilities. The main issue of airport charges caused much grief during the years and came to a head vociferously in recent times. Until now these functions have been performed extremely effec tively by the Department but they require ongoing monitoring. The Minister has correctly and wisely decided to assign them to the regulator. I commend her for doing so. This will allow her and her officials to focus on other areas where new initiatives are required and policy reviews need to be conducted.

I understand staff are to be transferred to ensure continuity in the performance of these functions, which have been performed extremely well with one or two minor exceptions in recent years. I refer to the travel agency sector in which a number of travel agencies collapsed causing much grief, hardship and inconvenience to the travelling public. In this context the bonding scheme put in place by the Department has proved extremely effective.

The abolition of duty free sales has been frequently debated since 1997. My esteemed colleague on the opposite side of the House contributed on a number of occasions to the debate, in which all parties spoke with one voice. The resulting loss of revenue presents huge difficulties for Aer Rianta in terms of future capital investment. The Minister has conducted an indepth study of the development of our airports, which need a revenue stream. We will not shed tears for it today as it is a strong and robust organisation, but given that prices have effectively been frozen since 1987 Aer Rianta is, to some extent, in trouble. Given the conflict between being a shareholder and a regulator one is talking, on the one hand, about pumping money in and, on the other hand, being seen to referee an increasingly competitive market, in which Ryanair is an aggressive player. This makes the issue much more complex.

Against this background the Minister and the Department have, as a primary function, the unenviable task of ensuring a mechanism for the development of the infrastructure of our airports, in respect of which my esteemed colleague on the opposite side of the House has made many suggestions. I will outline some of mine on Committee Stage. From an economic standpoint, this is critical. I concur fully with the Minister and my esteemed colleague that, as an island nation on the periphery of Europe, we depend extremely heavily on our airports in terms of tourism and international trade and commerce. The more the economy grows the more we will depend on them. It is therefore logical that the services and facilities they provide have to be upgraded, modernised and widened to meet increasing demand.

It is of crucial importance that the correct balance is struck in whatever policies are implemented and in whatever structures or mechanisms are put in place in trying to meet the future needs of Aer Rianta and in ensuring the presence of cost-effective and efficient airline services. If our costs are prohibitive, no one will come here. One of the great strengths of the Bill, in confronting by way of an independent regulator and commission some of the issues which have been left to fester for far too long, is that it does not prevent the future development of our airports.

I intend to table a number of amendments on Committee Stage which I hope the Minister, given her good nature, will be in a position to accept. They will afford me an opportunity to tease out my concerns about a number of specific areas which I do not want to deal with today. I welcome the manner in which the Bill provides that the office of the regulator will operate in a transparent—

The Senator should at least put a headline on the signpost.

Tell her what the amendments are.

It all has to do with how the brain functions. The Senator's brain functions at a very fast rate. I do not have such a gift. I therefore have to deliberate slowly.

Humility – have I ever offended thee?

While it would be my fervent wish to accommodate my esteemed friend and colleague on the opposite of the House by providing the text of the amendments—

Are Senators always this polite?

—I have to disappoint her on this occasion. I have not yet had an opportunity to put them in writing. When I have done so I will pass them on to the Senator.

I thank the Senator.

I welcome and commend the Minister on the manner in which the Bill provides that the office of the regulator will operate in a transparent and open way. This should lead to strong public confidence. The Bill also provides for full consultation, publication of outcomes and reasons for certain decisions and accountability – very important in an area such as this – through an Oireachtas committee. The Bill further gives the Minister the power to retain the right to give general policy directions. This is vital.

On the future development of our airports which will inevitably raise questions about future ownership, I welcome the Minister's strong assurances that the introduction of regulation in the five areas outlined in detail by her in no way pre-empts, prejudices or inhibits ongoing consultation on the future of Aer Rianta. The Minister is obviously fully convinced that a strong and robust regulatory system is urgently needed. I believe she is correct. She has made no secret of the fact that there is a big issue to be decided. She is cur rently studying the report compiled by Warburg Dillon Read—

A nasty little report.

I agree that careful consideration has to be given to its recommendations. The Minister has appointed Mr. Bill Prasifka as regulator designate who must await his statutory remit and cannot do anything until the Bill is passed—

He is beetling away.

I am reliably informed that he is beetling away and will be well prepared for his statutory remit once the Bill passes through both Houses. From his professional background and experience he is obviously eminently well qualified to adjudicate on what will undoubtedly be ongoing and robust debates between the main players. I wish him every success in the challenging times ahead.

Not alone is the Minister's decision to appoint a regulator and commission extremely important in confronting an issue which has been left to fester for too long, so too is her recognition that a regulator needed to be appointed prior to her final deliberations on the future of Aer Rianta. She is focusing on the correct issue, the need for regulation in certain key areas, which was diverting her from her primary role which was the promotion of the Irish economy through the resources available under the Minister's administration, namely, the airports of Ireland. The establishment of a regulator and his commission enables the Minister to continue towards the finality of her deliberations. She will make her decision after examining the consultants' report and her own study. I wish her well and commend the Bill.

I like the Minister, Deputy O'Rourke, coming here with a Bill because she speaks from the heart and as though she is interested in it. She also speaks as someone who is in control of it. I welcome her.

This Bill is connected to airports which are very important. We do not recognise their importance until something goes wrong. I remind Members of an incident that happened in Liverpool yesterday. A plane travelling from Manchester to Belfast had to circle Liverpool for three hours before landing. People had their fingers crossed that nothing would go wrong. It was asked later why they went to Liverpool rather than Belfast, Manchester or somewhere else. That question was answered. The captain probably based his decision to land in Liverpool on his confidence in that airport. It is a reminder to us that we take things for granted until something goes wrong. For example, when we turn on lights and power we assume that there will be electricity to do so. It is seldom that something goes wrong with the ESB but we do not appreciate it until something goes wrong.

Last year there was havoc in the British passport office when it could not provide passports. We do not appreciate our Passport Office until something goes wrong somewhere else. Our Passport Office works very well and efficiently.

I welcome the Minister. Normally my style is to welcome a Bill also and all too often to suggest that it is long overdue. Unfortunately, I am in a quandary over this Bill. No matter how hard I try I cannot find a good reason for it.

What about the shareholder regulator and trying to keep one person dealing with two roles?

I will take the Minister through that. I hope she will listen to me and decide that I am right and not go ahead with it after Second Stage. That is how confidently I believe in what I am saying.

We have had a long and, for the most part, successful tradition of hiving off commercial functions from Departments. The postal and telephone services were once an integral part of the Department of Post and Telegraphs. The broadcasting service was also part of that Department if we go back even further. First RTÉ or Radio Éireann was hived off at the end of the 1950s. After 25 years An Post and Telecom Éireann were set up.

The principle behind the hiving off was a good one. The Government wanted to put distance between itself and the day-to-day running of what was predominantly a commercial service. That move was worthwhile and very successful in most cases. As a result we have given birth to a clutch of State-sponsored bodies. Their status has meant that they enjoy a freedom of action and the knowledge that they need to serve their customers. They would not have that freedom if they were still part of a Department. Some of these State-sponsored bodies have moved completely into the private sector through privatisation. I am delighted to hear the Minister is suggesting that further steps could be taken in that area with regard to transport. Whenever that status seemed to be the best way of fulfilling the Government's mission they used it. So far so good. The principle of separating a Department and providing a commercial service is clear and easy to follow. We have done that very successfully with a number of semi-State bodies.

Equally there was a clear principle behind the setting up of purely promotional bodies such as the IDA and Bord Fáilte. They were not carrying on a commercial function. They needed a commercial ethos in order to fulfil their mission well. The Government has done very well with those bodies. There is a clear justification for having promotional agencies as free standing entities rather than as part of Departments.

It is when we come to a third type of body that we arrive on ground that is not quite so clear. This is when you set up a body primarily to have it independent of Government. It is a public body and it carries out a public service function. It is sponsored by a Department but it is deliberately set up to be independent. A good example of this is the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General. This office is independent of the Government but it is accountable to the Oireachtas. It acts as a watchdog and monitors the way the Government spends our money, the money that the Oireachtas pledges to it in Votes. Similarly, the Office of the Ombudsman is independent of the Government. This means that citizens can lodge an appeal with an independent person if they feel they have been treated unfairly by the Administration. My third example is the Office of the Data Protection Commissioner. There is an obvious need for this office to be independent of Government since the Government or a future one could be massive abuser of the information that is stored in the data network.

I have explained my case and given three types of bodies. We start to run into difficulties when we come to a subset of these independent offices. These are the independent regulators where the Government hives off not the responsibility to provide a service nor a watchdog function, but the central core function of Government itself, the regulation of an industry or sector. A characteristic of these regulators – a worrying one as some people would suggest – is that they seem to be answerable to no one. Independence cannot go any further than that. There is a reason for doing that in some of the cases I have mentioned. The need to create these regulators arose with the shift away from public monopoly in public services like telecommunications. Originally the Government was the regulator and provider of the service. Later, after Telecom Éireann was hived off, it owned the service provider.

When the monopoly was broken up and other players were invited in, it was clear that the Government could not be a player and a referee at the same time. When the telecommunications regulator was being set up I said I thought we had got it the wrong way around. The Government was giving up its referee role in order to continue being a player. This was some years ago. I said then that it should have given up being a player to continue being a referee. I said that because it seemed that a telecommunications referee should be more than an impartial arbiter or non-biased referee between competing parties. There was also a national development agency which the referee should be insisting on as a basic rule of the game. The referee should have an interest in what game is being played and how it is being played. He or she should be indifferent to the detail of who won but they should ensure there is fair play.

My suggestions would probably have been taken as no more than common sense but for the fact that at the time there were ideological objections to the Government getting out of the ownership of Telecom Éireann. One role had to be given up and it was the referee role that the Government hived off some years go.

I accept the principle that in a non-monopoly situation the Government cannot be a player and a referee. I do not see why the Goverment must give up its referee role – which is the basic core job – where it is not a player or intends, as Senator Liam Fitzgerald just said, to stop being a player in the near future. The Government is no longer a player in Telecom Éireann. It is not a referee either because that company has its own referee. Perhaps the Government will still be a player for another few months because it still has some shares.

That is only a technicality.

We have given a job to a regulator when we are no longer a player. We now have an independent telecommunications referee but the Government should have that job.

This Bill wants to create a commission of aviation regulation for almost the sole purpose of setting airport landing charges. We have added a few other aspects as well. I say "almost" because the additional functions of regulating package holidays and so on are almost cosmetic additions to fill out the picture but the basic role of the regulatory body will be to set airport landing charges. In other words, its job is that of referee. This is taking place at a time when it is extremely likely that, in the foreseeable future, the airports will be privatised. When that happens the Government will neither be a player nor a referee so I do not see the benefits of such a development.

The Minister will remain a player.

That may be so and perhaps we will learn something. I do not see the benefits of this but I see two particular disadvantages. The Minister may correct me and I hope she will explain where I am making my mistake. The first disadvantage involves cost and complication. The Minister has created another mini empire with separate staff, offices, website, annual report, the usual consultants and so on, which is almost certainly more costly than the present system. The fact that this cost would not be paid by the Government but by a levy on airport users is not relevant because the cost has increased, no matter who pays.

The second disadvantage is much more important and fundamental. In walking away from the role of referee when it is not a player, the Government is giving up an area of control and influence which it might regret doing. The setting of landing charges is not a purely commercial function which can be carried out in a quasi-judicial way. It has to take place within a framework of concerns for the long-term national interest, but these concerns might not get full attention if price setting decisions are taken solely on the basis of arbitrating between commercial interests.

In the area of telecommunications, for example, if we as a State decided that we wanted to be the hub of e-commerce and telecommunications, if we wanted to make ourselves the best in the world and decided the way to do so was to drive down prices, then it would not be enough for the telecommunications regulator simply to ensure fairness between the parties. Of course the regulator would do so, but perhaps the regulator's function should be to encourage more competition in order to make Ireland the hub of world e-commerce. That would be a national interest but it should be held by the Government and not by an independent body which is not responsible to Government, or only so in a roundabout way. This is not a task which should be carried out with complete independence of Government.

The Government has a policy of encouraging tourism, but at some point in the future it could lose control if it hands responsibility for airport charges, for example, to a regulator. This is the power which the Government should continue to hold, yet it is proposing to give it away by setting up this commission and regulatory system. It is far more important to hold on to that power than to the running of the airports. Running airports is a professional matter best left to professionals, those who run them first and foremost as a business and who will succeed. The Government should relinquish its hands on approach to the day-to-day running of the airports, and I support the Minister on this point, while maintaining the element of control through its pricing mechanism to ensure that the long-term, strategic development of the airports happens in line with our national interests, rather than handing that power over to someone else.

In seeking to set up a regulatory system, as proposed by the Bill, the Government is holding on, and I have to be careful in my words, with great care to the bath water – and I am afraid to mention baths in the Minister's case – while throwing the baby away without a care in the world. The only reason for having a regulator is that the Government should not be referee and player. If the Government is not to be a player, then in the national interest it should continue to be referee rather than handing the power over to someone else. The Bill should not proceed past Second Stage.

I welcome the Minister to the House and look forward to welcoming her again with her future proposals. The Minister has given her raison d'être for the legislation in that it was signalled in 1992 that with the change in duty free facilities and deregulation there was likely to be a move towards independent regulation in line with EU policy. I support the Bill and do not agree with Senator Quinn that it should go no further than Second Stage.

Much depends on the interface between the Minister, the Department and the regulator. Much also depends on how the regulator will operate, how the regulator's functions work out in practice and how comprehensive they are. These functions refer mostly, if not exclusively, to the economic operation of airports. I had not realised the extent to which duty free sales were a major factor in landing charges implemented by Aer Rianta and how it could juggle the charges and offer discounts, provide incentives and so on. From that point of view, it is a pity that duty free facilities are gone, given that we are an island which is so dependent on air traffic. We are expecting about six million visitors this year and we will have a bumper year given the exchange rates with sterling and the dollar.

The new body will regulate landing charges, the operation of licences, ground handling services and will have the important economic function of licensing and bonding tour operators and travel agents. I wish to refer to the views expressed by trade unions regarding ground handling services and the link between the new regulatory commission, existing requirements concerning health and safety and the aviation authority. What will happen in this respect? Will the new body extend its remit to cover ground handling and general health safety matters? There was a recent near miss at Heathrow Airport. Who will be responsible for overall safety at every level? Will it be the Health and Safety Authority, the Irish Aviation Authority or the new regulatory commission? What will be the interface between these bodies or will we find mistakes taking place and people trying to scapegoat each other?

With regard to Aer Rianta, the Minister said it was not in any way prejudiced for the future. Has the Warburg Dillon Read report which the Minister commissioned been published and is it available for public perusal?

Yes. I sent a copy to all Members of the Oireachtas in February. I send copies of everything to Members. People tell me I am over burdening them.

I do not recollect receiving it.

The Senator did receive it.

The report looked at the future operation of Aer Rianta. It would be helpful to hear the Minister's thoughts on that matter. There is much concern about whether Aer Rianta will be allowed to continue operating its current monopoly or whether there will be competition in that area. I understand the Bill does not affect that and Aer Rianta will continue to operate as before.

Will the Bill deal with tour operators and travel agents? How will it affect the bonding and licensing of tour operators? How broad will be the parameters of its remit in that area?

I welcome the legislation. It is important to provide for independence and accountability. With regard to accountability, what reference will there be to the Houses of the Oireachtas? How will the reports be sent and what say will the Houses have with regard to the commission fulfilling its brief? Perhaps the Minister will deal with these questions. I hope this will be useful legislation.

I thank Members for their contributions. The debate in the Seanad is always more lively and different from that in the Dáil. If I had my way I would introduce every Bill in the Seanad because the debate provides an insight into various matters.

Senator Taylor-Quinnn spoke about section 33 and the need to insert an objective to ensure balanced regional development. It was an interesting point of view. Perhaps she or Members of this side of the House will put down an amendment in that regard. The Labour Party is always ready to put down amendments.

Senator Taylor-Quinn told the House that historically Shannon Airport subsidised Dublin Airport in air transport. When I was a child, Shannon Airport was viewed as a type of Mecca. One saw film stars arrive dripping with pearls and ermine. They might stay overnight before swanning away again. It was very glamorous. One thought that anything to do with airports was glamorous. There is still that type of allure about an airport. There is the feeling that one is going somewhere or meeting somebody who is arriving from somewhere exotic. In those years there was also the mystery of how one could fly, how the plane got up into the sky and back down.

The Senator also said the regulator would have to be extremely vigilant vis-à-vis Dublin, Cork and Shannon and ensure that staff levels were maintained. Her contribution was most interesting.

Senator Liam Fitzgerald spoke about a salts initiative. The Senator will have to explain what that means. He spoke about the regulator and shareholder and how difficult it is to balance the roles. He also spoke about an island's strategic need to have great regard and care for its airports and how they were treated. He welcomed the fact that the regulator is already in place. It is a good policy and the regulator is already reading himself into his brief.

Senator Quinn is in a quandary. He wants me to leave with my tail between my legs and not return for Committee Stage. I am interested in the point the Senator made about regulators and shareholders. I have pondered the matter at great length. I spoke earlier about my concern that we are giving over huge segments of Irish life by transferring responsibility from a Government Department to another body. One example is telecommunications, which affect everybody in their daily lives and will increasingly do so with the arrival of new technologies. That led me last year to initate a proposal, which I brought to Cabinet, to issue a paper on regulatory matters. I produced a policy paper and the Department advertised for submissions in the newspapers. We received 34 submissions which we are now considering. The result will be legislation and statutory instruments relating to governance and accountability.

It is wrong in democratic terms that Departments should hive off large sections of Irish life and thereafter consider the matter closed. If we do not establish proper accountability procedures for regulators, we will rue the day we introduced them, even though we had to, without providing for redress and balance. The Senator says I or the relevant Minister should still be the referee, despite having sloughed off the shareholder role, in the interests of competition. The Minister would keep his or her hands off the daily running of the operation but would assume the role of referee. How competitive would that business be if the Minister of the day was still the referee and was daily in the Dáil or Seanad – not that I would object – to account for why a flight did not leave Dublin Airport at a certain time? Whether a train leaves Heuston Station at a certain time is still my business. Does the Senator see my point? How competitive would that business be if the Minister was still the referee? It would not be competitive.

Some Ministers are hands on and some are hands off. According to the previous chairman of CIE, I was too hands on and that was his gripe. People also vary according to their tastes and preferences.

The regulator could vary too.

I cannot stop being interventionist. It is my nature and it is hard to change that. I cannot see that industry performing well in a competitive environment where the shareholder remained the referee.

The shareholder must not be the referee. It is only if the shareholder is no longer—

That is correct. I apologise. I meant to say that when the Minister gives up his or her shareholding, he or she remains the referee.

Exactly.

No. I cannot see that industry performing properly in a competitive environment in that scenario. Other countries are wrestling with this. We must wrestle with it and produce proper accountability and governance. That is why there will be three people like Ms Etain Doyle on the commission for telecommunications and three people on the commission for electricity. Clearly this will be combined with some other transport infrastructure and there will be a regulator for that.

It is not possible to do it. I have wrestled with those ideas in my mind. That is why I took such a decision to get that policy paper moving and why I thought the 1996 Act was so bereft. It was not really bereft; it was the first essay into regulation. I am not faulting those who produced it because it is an evolutionary process.

Clearly the Senator has been thinking about the matter as he referred to the Comptroller and Auditor General, the Data Protection Commissioner and the Ombudsman. It is just that I cannot see it working.

But the Minister would appoint civil servants to do the job.

The cross-over between the political and the administrative would be entwined in that version, but I thank the Senator for his thoughts.

Senator Costello raised two issues – the travel trade and ground handling. I met Mr. Peter Cassells and the group which represents the combined interests of people who work in ground handling, and I heard from nearly every Senator and Deputy about the ground handling issue. The proposal is to transfer the present functions to the commission. I am aware of the concerns expressed by trades unions regarding the safety aspects of third party ground handlers operating at airports, to which the Senator referred. No doubt airports can be hazardous environments. We agreed that my officials would bring together the IAA and HSA. As each authority would state that they are responsible for this, we will get the two together at the one desk to find a way to resolve the problems in that regard. I would be glad to come back to report on that matter.

All functions of the travel trade, licensing, bonding, etc., are being devolved to the commission; therefore the commissioner's remit will include all aspects of it.

As always, it has been a good debate. I thank my officials for the work they have put into the Bill. I also thank the legions of people who work at the State airports and those who worked in them over the years for the commitment they have given to the development of the island economy. I look forward to Committee Stage.

Question put and declared carried.

When is it proposed to take Committee Stage?

On Wednesday next, 24 May 2000.

Acting Chairman

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 24 May 2000.
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