I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development to the House.
White Paper on Rural Development: Statements (Resumed).
Aontaím leis an gCathaoirleach agus cuirim fáilte fial roimh an Aire go dtí an Teach.
I welcome the Minister of State to the House. I compliment him and the Government on the work that they have done since taking office. I also compliment them on the work that has been undertaken in the area of rural development since the debate commenced on 9 March last. Despite some of the inferences that might have been made and some comments on the Order of Business, it is fair to say that every Member accepts the integral importance of the area of rural development to the political agenda.
The objective of any rural development plan must be to achieve a rural Ireland that has vibrant, thriving and sustainable communities which are attractive to live and work in. Achieving this involves a reversal of the trends of the past which has seen the flight from the land, a decline in the rural population and a massive migration towards the greater Dublin area in a population trend reminiscent of what happened in some Third World countries.
The Government's White Paper was initially underpinned by a very positive process of consultation. The institutional arrangements which were promised are now in place. The existence of an interdepartmental committee and a Cabinet sub-committee chaired by the Taoiseach are evidence of the high political priority given by the Government to the challenge of rural development.
Since this issue was discussed in the House in March the National Rural Development Forum has been established with appropriate terms of reference. They are to debate current issues relating to rural development, to review the impact of current programmes on rural development and to identify and recommend suitable policy responses to rural development problems.
More than 90 agencies and groups with a remit in the area have been invited to participate in this forum making it one of the most substantial and broad based fora ever established here. The IFA nominated its president, Mr. Tom Parlon, and the ICMSA nominated its president, Mr. Pat O'Rourke, to mention just two. The existence of such a broad based, high powered forum guarantees that rural development will continue to remain on the top of the agenda for this and future Governments.
Through the national development plan the commitments on rural development will be delivered. It is heartening to know that this plan was prepared on the basis of the requirement for rural proofing which is now a factor in all Government initiatives. The Government is committed to providing, within a strategic framework under the plan, a programme of investment in infrastructure – including roads, rail, sewerage, water, telecommunications and transport – promoting sustainable growth and maintaining the rural population. I cannot over-emphasise the importance of this commitment. Without significant investment of the order envisaged by the Government, not least in the basic areas of water and sewerage treatment systems, rural development would remain no more than a pipe dream.
We live in a communications age and there has been much discussion about the benefits of working from home, technological developments and the potential offered by teleworking, for example, to those living in rural areas. Such initiatives are unlikely to be undertaken, however, in areas where the basic water and sewerage services are either inadequate or non-existent.
The success of the Government's plans for rural development will depend in no small measure on the work of the county development boards which are charged with the challenge of integrating development policies at county level. The end result of their efforts must be the availability of quality services in rural areas. In this regard, I urge that local authority members and the chairmen of the SPCs – the local authorities' nominees to the county development boards – take a lead role in the deliberations of the county development boards to ensure that the boards can be successfully driven towards achieving their goals.
The role of local authorities in rural development cannot be underestimated. There is no doubt that Government investment is needed to stimulate activity in rural areas. However, the means to ensure balanced development at county level can be best achieved through the medium of county development plans. In my county, for example, there has been phenomenal growth, centred mostly in its north-eastern part. This trend was well advanced before the arrival in the area of Intel and Hewlett Packard and it has intensified in the interim.
The current county development plan in Kildare aims to encourage development towards the centre, the west and the south of the county and has, as its core objective, the distribution of two thirds of further population growth towards these areas. To achieve this policy, the smaller towns, villages and settlements will have to be developed in a sensitive and sustainable manner. If our strategy in Kildare works – there are indications that it is beginning to – it could be a model for other counties to follow.
Much has rightly been made of the Government's announcement in last year's budget of a major decentralisation programme involving upwards of 10,000 civil and public servants.
The brakes have been put on that.
Given that submissions or representations have been made in respect of 120 urban centres throughout the country, the support for this proposal is obvious.
I compliment the Minister for Finance, a Kildare man, on adopting a careful and consultative approach to this process. It is most appropriate that, in addition to considering submissions received, he should also take on board the views of civil service management and civil and public service unions. In reaching his conclusions, I hope he does not forget his home county and that the submissions made in respect of Athy, among other places, will be considered. For many years we have advocated the idea that the Curragh Camp would make an ideal headquarters for the Department of Defence. Perhaps the mandarins in Parkgate Street might not be reluctant to move their operations to that location.
Canvassing will disqualify.
In the context of the debate on decentralisation, it might not be any harm to consider whether such a policy could be implemented at county level. I put this forward as a suggestion rather than as a definitive proposal. Is it not the case that many county towns are like Dublin in microcosm? For example, Naas is home to the headquarters of Kildare County Council which is developing a new corporate office at a cost of approximately £12 million, the county hospital which, thanks to Government subvention of the order of £42 million, is undertaking a major development plan, the county post office, Naas Urban District Council, the administrative headquarters of the Kildare County VEC, the Circuit Court offices, the South Western Area Health Board offices, the headquarters of Teagasc and a driver test centre, to mention but a few. I suspect that a similar concentration of services exists in many other county towns and this is something that might be usefully investigated and considered at local level. The establishment of one stop shops and area offices or the decentralisation, within counties, of some of these offices should be examined.
The publication by the Government of its White Paper on Adult Education in an era of lifelong learning is to be welcomed in the context of this debate. We will, no doubt, have an opportunity to discuss that document in the House at a later date. However, I emphasise the need to maximise the access of rural people to education and training. Much more needs to be done to promote the concept of out-reach centres and there should be closer co-operation between the institutes of technology and the vocational education committees to this end. Many of us, through our roles in local authorities, have a function at both institute of technology and VEC level.
Last, but by no means least, I wish to deal with the issue of agriculture. When I joined the major Government party in the late 1970s, I was attracted, among other things, by its objective of maintaining as many families as practicable on the land. That objective is clearly demonstrated and remains a central plank of Government policy in the area of rural development. The Government has put in place positive initiatives to encourage alternative farm enterprise and, through second chance education and training, opportunities are being made available to allow small holders secure sustainable off-farm income while continuing to successfully manage their farm enterprises.
I acknowledge the success of the Government in redressing the crisis which has beset the beef sector. I welcome the improvements which have been achieved in this sector due to the marketing drive and other initiatives undertaken by the Taoiseach, the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development and the Minister for Foreign Affairs. Given the paramount importance of the beef sector to rural Ireland and to the economy as a whole, we must recognise the major significance of the Government's achievements in this regard.
I am confident that the White Paper, taken together with the investment commitment in the national development plan and the introduction in due course of the Government's forthcoming national spatial strategy, will guarantee a bright and secure future for rural Ireland.
I welcome the Minister of State, a man of friendly disposition who always has a ready smile. I recognise that his heart is in the right place and I am glad he occupies his current position because this matter is vital to the future of the country. There are many imbalances to be redressed and I wish the Minister of State well in that regard. I read the contribution he made on 9 March last and the ideals he outlined are extremely worthy and highly laudable. I recognise that an inter-departmental committee and Cabinet sub-committee have been put in place. As Senator Ó Fearghail stated, 90 groups are involved in helping to shape future policy in this area.
I wish everyone well who is involved in the area of rural development, a subject about which I feel deeply. Senator Ó Fearghail stated that maintaining a maximum number of families on the land was one of the reasons which prompted him to join his party. Regardless of party loyalties, everyone feels deeply about this matter.
I sincerely hope that the vision the Minister of State outlined in his contribution on 9 March is translated into practice and becomes a tangible reality. Time is of the essence in that regard. The regeneration of rural areas and village life is vital for the future of this country. People, even those who live in our cities, agree that rural Ireland is an essential part of our identity. Therefore we all have a vested interest in its success. I hope that, through the good policies which will emanate from these bodies, we can breathe new life into rural Ireland.
Coming from south Kerry, I am particularly concerned about the Gaeltacht regions of Corca Dhuibhne and Uíbh Ráthach. Because of their remoteness and peripherality these areas have suffered more than any other part of rural Ireland. We recognise the infrastructural problem of serving remote rural areas – transport is a great difficulty – and especially Gaeltacht areas.
We must do more than pay lip service to the ideals of maintaining, developing and enhancing rural communities. New and effective policies are essential. I hope the Minister of State, with the supports available to him in his Department and with the other bodies now in place, will give the required leadership and steer us to a brighter future.
Agriculture was the backbone of our economy in the past but this is not so today. However, new and exciting things can happen in rural Ireland and good livelihoods can be earned without further depopulating the land. Employment opportunities have become focused in the larger urban areas but, given the advances in technology, many people desire a rural way of life and are anxious to work from home.
Planning presents a great difficulty. I am as concerned an anyone about the protection and enhancement of the environment but increasingly planning applications for single rural dwellings for an applicant's own use are being frustrated. It is often not possible for an entire family to live off the land and many farmers wish to provide sites for their sons and daughters who are working in neighbouring towns. While sites in towns might cost between £50,000 and £70,000, a young person might be offered a site on his father's small holding. Such people are being frustrated in their efforts to obtain planning permission because planning regulations are becoming more and more restrictive. Such problems come to the attention of all public representatives and, regardless of our affiliations, we all feel for the people involved. I believe all public representatives would support the policy of allowing people to live in their home place and to raise a family in the vicinity of their parents' house or the home of a brother or sister. That would be a damn good policy.
Without damaging the beauty of the countryside, the Department of the Environmnent and Local Government must find a way, perhaps through a ministerial directive, to implement such a policy. Too many planning officers are taking an easy way out by finding some point on which to refuse planning applications. I am not calling for a policy of ribbon development, merely of allowing people to live in the place where they grew up and commute to work in a nearby town or work from home.
I have heard and read criticism of white painted houses sticking out like sore thumbs in rural areas. There may be such instances. I recommend the introduction of a small grant to allow for those problems to be corrected and enable those buildings to blend with the landscape.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
The Senator has one minute left.
With respect, I understood the time limits had been amended. I have a minimum of 15 minutes. I believe I am correct.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
I will allow the Senator an extra minute or two.
Thank you, Leas-Chathaoileach, I always said you were a decent man. I commend to the Government this idea of a small grant to allow people to stone-face such dwellings.
An enlightened approach to rural development must involve sustainable economic growth. The villages of rural Ireland have lost Garda stations, post offices and banks and I fear that we might also lose small village food shops. This has happened in Britain because of policies which were allowed there for so long. Planning policy guidelines are now being used in Britain in an effort to correct this situation. In this country we are fortunate in having a ministerial directive on this matter. More than 43% of British villages no longer have a food shop. Thank God that has not yet happened here but we must be watchful. I compliment the Tánaiste who appears to have come to accept the argument that fewer shops means less choice, less competition and a futher decline for rural areas. We must protect the villages of rural Ireland.
I thought I would have had time to deal with matters such as e-mailing, cheap video conferencing and teleworking. In my own county, Fexco is located in the town of Killorglin and Rosenbluth is located in the countryside. Both companies have employees working from their homes. We have a young well-educated workforce who want to live on the land, particularly if they are offered sites for homes. All public representatives are fighting cases with planning authorities on behalf of such young people. The Minister for the Environment and Local Government should do something to make things easier for them, without damaging the environment in any way. If the owner of a holding of 30 or 40 acres wishes to offer a son or daughter a site, it should be possible for a planning officer to choose and recommend a suitable location. This could be done without making a new entrance or exit but merely by adding a spur to an existing entrance. Planners appear to be too ready to take an easy way out. Not enough constructive dialogue is taking place. It is the job of politicians to encourage such dialogue and to ensure that it takes place. I do not think I am straying from the subject matter.
It is at the heart of the matter.
Thank you. I would like to have commented on other matters raised by the Minister of State. I look forward to hearing his reply.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
We will try to accommodate the Senator.
I welcome the Minister of State to the House and the opportunity to say a few words about rural development. Every day in the media we hear about the problems of traffic, the cost of housing and child care in urban areas, particularly in Dublin. If our aim and policy is to provide for sustainable rural development, we could solve some of these problems by encouraging people to remain in rural areas where they want to live near their families and communities.
I come from what is considered a rural area and agree with Senator Coghlan who referred to the constant problem of family members being refused planning permission on their own farmland at a time when we are seeking to prevent rural depopulation. There is no written rule that only one or two planning applications will be granted. Whenever the matter is raised with planning officers the ultimate answer is that it amounts to urban development in a rural area. I cannot see what the problem is in building two houses on a particular farm. As a consequence of the refusal of planning permission, family members who are in a position to build a home on their own site within a reasonable price range are being forced to move to urban areas which are already overpopulated and where houses are twice the price. It is a vicious circle and a catch-22 situation.
To ensure sustainable rural development there is a need to provide services – financial, social and health. Those living in rural areas are just as entitled to access such services as those living in urban areas. There is a constant threat that financial institutions will move from smaller towns. There is also a constant threat to our postal services, a matter which raises its ugly head every few months. The process of reducing the number of Garda stations has already commenced. Each of these is an important facet of any rural community and I hope we can arrest their decline.
In March Senator Chambers, my party's spokesperson on rural development in the Seanad, proposed to the Minister for Finance that any excess moneys recouped from financial institutions as a result of various inquiries, including the DIRT inquiry, should be reinvested in the rural communities from which the financial institutions concerned have moved in order to improve the available services and facilities. I fully support this proposal.
There is constant reference in my home county to the need for infrastructure. Monaghan is probably the only county where the major towns on the primary routes have not been bypassed. It used to take two hours to travel from Monaghan to Dublin. It now takes two and three quarters hours. Is this progress? It is our hope that we will eventually reach the stage where our major towns will be bypassed, given that indigenous industries in Cavan and Monaghan are entirely dependent on the road network, which is not always up to standard. We have not a train service. There is also a number of what would be considered heavy industries, mainly involved in furniture production, which, although based along narrow country roads, are thriving. Furniture produced in Monaghan is widely available in Dublin. Although under threat, these industries have survived on their own initiative. There is a need to encourage the development of further indigenous industries in counties such as mine.
The Good Friday Agreement, for which we are all particularly grateful, presents opportunities for economic cross-Border development. An east-west road link would be a great asset to Cavan and Monaghan and offer enormous potential for such development. Such a link has not been provided for in the national development plan. It takes about one and a half hours to travel to Belfast port and airport and about two and a half hours to Dublin. There should be a main artery running from either Belfast to Galway or from Dundalk to Sligo. While there has been talk about the development of regional centres in the west, possibly in Athlone or Sligo, there is a need for an east-west link. I ask the Minister of State to use his good offices to ensure such a link in included in the national development plan.
I agree with those Senators who raised the issue of telecommunications. It is becoming more and more necessary to provide such infrastructure. Fibre optic cable is in place as far as Ardee in County Louth and it is our hope that in time it will be extended as far as Cavan. Once more, however, Monaghan will be bypassed. Without such infrastructure, it will be impossible to attract industry. It will have to be provided in all parts of the country if we are to promote regional development. Cavan and Monaghan form part of the famous BMW – Border, midlands and western – region. I, therefore, appeal to the Minister of State to ensure such infrastructure is provided in or extended to my county. I have no doubt that my colleagues from Donegal will also be looking to have it provided or extended there. Currently one only hears about job losses in the two counties concerned.
There is another important aspect, that is, foreign industries are attracted to those areas in which third level institutes are located. There are some third level and post-leaving certificate courses available in my county. The Minister for Education and Science has announced that it is his policy to develop regional outreach third level education centres and I am aware that Monaghan has been included in the list.
Monaghan has the lowest level of participation in third level colleges, which seems unreasonable. A possible reason is the number of industries which we had through the years which offered the attraction of money at a time when jobs were quite scarce. Jobs were available in our food industries which were attractive to many young people who are still working as unskilled labourers. The incidence of third level education, which appears to be the greatest requirement, is very low. I have no doubt that if the outreach centres were available people would be attracted to attend third level.
The provision of employment in an area ensures that well educated and qualified people will not move to other parts of the country. People working abroad or in larger urban areas say they would like to move back to a smaller urban area or at least to their own home county. Providing education at local level would encour age people to remain and to give of their expertise and qualifications to develop their own rural communities.
The most important thing is quality of life. We all hear about the problems of family life, with two people having to work to pay a mortgage. We are constantly talking about regenerating rural communities and there are small ways in which we can do so, including in the provision of educational, health and infrastructural facilities. As part of our long-term strategy we should have the aim of addressing those matters. We want to keep people in their own areas and communities where they have a valuable contribution to make.
The one issue raised on all sides of the House, both during the previous discussion and again today, was planning permissions in rural areas. The Minister of State has had a particular interest in this, even prior to his appointment as Minister. Countless people came to me during the summer saying the local council turned down applications for planning permission. These people wanted to live in their own area, but were told their applications were refused because the proposed site was on a road which was too remote, etc. – nothing was said about ribbon development. I do not know if a Government directive is necessary, but we must take this matter seriously. Something must be done because local authorities are simply not abiding by the wishes of the Minister of State or Members of the Oireachtas.
I thank the Senators who contributed to the debate. As Members are aware, the White Paper is being implemented in many areas. The Cabinet sub-committee has been set up and rural proofing has been established in every Department, all of which we see as essential.
Rural planning was raised by Senators Hayes, Coghlan and Leonard. Nothing breaks my heart more than hearing of people who cannot live on their own land or build on their own farm. It is ridiculous that a farming family has to build somewhere other than on their own land. The parish is the basis of all areas. We have opened up the schools system and now allow two teachers for 12 pupils. This was an essential development in terms of keeping people in rural communities in the area which they knew. The alternative was to bus pupils to a larger centre or village, thereby losing the social connections, traditions and history.
I have an increasing number of constituents coming to me who have been refused planning permission. Planning officers point to ribbon development. We already have the ridiculous situation in Dublin where it takes one hour to drive seven miles. In rural areas people are travelling 40 or 50 miles to work – rural people do not see this as a problem as they can do 50 miles in an hour. Councillors at local level decide draft policy for their areas. It is time for councillors to be very strong when the draft development plan is being decided upon and to ensure they are not hoodwinked by officials who talk about rural or ribbon development.
We must build 50,000 houses this year, of which 10,000 could be built immediately in rural areas. In rural areas people do not necessarily use a builder – the old meitheal system kicks in whereby friends help out and payment is made in different ways. If we do not allow such building children will not know their own parish or townland. It concerns the social history of areas, because we can never replace the indigenous people of a parish. I have a deep concern in this context.
I urge that Members of this House, who have so much contact with councillors throughout the country, not purely for the purpose of being re-elected, to discuss this issue with them.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Is this part of the Minister's social inclusion policy?
Yes. There was a time when I thought a certain interest of the Leas-Chathaoirleach was confined to the Dublin region, but am glad that last Saturday he disproved that in the country.
We are working at many aspects in this regard, particularly rural tourism. We must ask whether rural tourism is an experience or a product and find a balance. We have provided £100,000 to Bord Fáilte to examine the development of rural tourism. Nobody comes to Ireland for sunstroke – I am not aware of anybody ever dying in Ireland from sunstroke – but they come for the experience and the products which are available. We have such products in vast abundance in rural areas, with farms which can be walked, hills which can be climbed and activities related to a healthier lifestyle which people enjoy. The fastest growing activity in the world is walking because people are becoming more health conscious, particularly people from large European cities who are fascinated by the vast areas here where people can walk and enjoy fresh air and a good lifestyle. It will be an essential product of rural areas and farming communities.
We have lost about 3,500 farmers in the past three years and it is estimated that roughly in the region of 30,000 and 40,000 commercial farmers will remain within the next number of years. We want farmers to stay on the land and take up part-time jobs. That is why we introduced schemes such as REPS, which will be re-introduced on 1 November by the Minister. We want to ensure payments are made to help farmers to farm in an environmentally friendly way so that they can make a nice income for themselves and also have a job outside farming.
Senator Leonard mentioned fibre optics, which is hugely important. The Government is investing £120 million in a multi-fibre system to extend it to rural areas. That will achieve a 20 times faster connection with the Internet. More importantly, it has the capacity to take millions of calls per hour. We see this as essential. People who get basic training in computers, who start with a basic EDL, can improve their skills. They can work from home for as long as they like, for whom they like and when they like. That is an important freedom, especially for a woman in a farmhouse if she engages in part-time farming. We consider it to be an essential ingredient in the income of the farm.
I must praise the Leader companies throughout the country. They have used community halls and laptop computers to train people. Such programmes usually start off with a bit of fun involving, say, nine or ten women. The interest then takes over and the women become involved leading to competition between them. Many have taken up good jobs.
Senator Tom Hayes and I are from different eras. I do not accuse him of being my age, but I was around when the car radios changed to digital. I thought I would be stuck with the 252 wavelength, which is Atlantic Radio. However, I eventually mastered the digital radio and I have even mastered the computer.
Computer technology allows people to work when they want. Senator Coghlan spoke about the impact in his constituency. It is a world-wide development. For example, one can place a bet on a race in Gibraltar by using an international system through the Internet.
These developments are also happening in Ireland. People are coming into the country to use our telephone and computer systems. There is a businessman in Clonmel who is generating tremendous work and he is constantly looking for people to work for him. We need increasing numbers of trained people.
One of our biggest problems in rural areas is the lack of confidence of women to proceed with projects. They all have the ability. They present a huge resource of untapped wealth and knowledge. We must try and break down their lack of confidence and get increasing numbers to join the workforce. They can work for anybody located anywhere throughout the country and abroad. Firms from America are constantly looking for work to be done here overnight, for example on insurance claims, to be ready for their offices the next morning. The time lags fuel this demand.
There has been a sharp decline in poverty in rural areas since the mid 1990s. A Cabinet sub-committee is looking at social inclusion and that will include a transport policy. The local county enterprise boards will be asked to undertake an assessment of the transport needs of each county. School buses lie idle for three months of the year and for five to ten hours a day. In Feakle, County Clare, a house calls system was developed. For example, a school bus, having delivered children to school, leaves Feakle on a Thursday morning at 9.15 a.m. and brings people to Ennis. All those on social welfare benefits or the State pension can travel free. The Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs will pay. Other travellers pay a maximum of £5 return. They have a four hour stay in Ennis. A hackney would cost £18 to carry passengers the same distance and will not wait three or four hours. The service gives people a chance to do the business they want, whether it is taxing the car, approaching the local authority about their rent or whatever else.
Although the buses may not be of the best quality, the school buses in rural Ireland are an essential asset which should be used. Other systems have been looked at, including community buses which can do work for the less able people. They can bring them to day care centres and so on.
The Department of Health and Children is considering how to locate health clinics in rural areas, where a lot of day care facilities can be provided. These are beneficial because not only do they provide preventative medicine, they enable people to socialise when getting their hair washed or their nails cut. They are simple things, but they give people a sense of belonging.
We need people who work in rural areas to remain there. A lot of industry could move to such areas where they would have at their disposal a ready made workforce. None have proven themselves better than those from farming communities who earn a wage from a job rather than a twice yearly payment. They appreciate such work far more than those who have been used to it all their lives. Farmers from my county travel to Limerick to work for Dell Computers. It involves a huge social change for them and, more importantly, a change in mindset that enables them to farm at home, work in Dell and bring home good money every week. It enables them to farm to a high standard and get a higher price for their animals.
I can advise Senator Chambers that the Western Development Commission funding has been passed since I last addressed the House on this issue. Funding has been allocated and three or four projects have been passed. The commission has £5 million for five years to invest in industry, by taking a share in it or by providing it with a cheap loan. There will always be the small indigenous industry that falls between the IDA, Enterprise Ireland and the others. This is a niche market, which will be helpful.
Many of the areas we are working on in Government require the co-ordination of more than one Department. It is understandably difficult to get the necessary co-operation at times because each Department has a power base which insists on being responsible for some projects. My Department does not mind who announces programmes as long as there is movement on the issues. The Taoiseach has taken a personal interest in this and, by chairing meetings, especially in the social inclusion area, he has ensured that policy will be moved forward.
We see good prospects for rural Ireland. However, I must emphasise the importance of planning. It is for local authority members in their areas to decide upon and ensure that they introduce policies not to blight the countryside with houses, but to allow for sensible planning. For example, a common complaint is the narrowness of roads, which will later require servicing. Why not insist that houses be built back ten feet from the roadside and that ditches be rebuilt? Why not insist that a light be erected outside the house, and that a tarmacadam surface be laid on the road outside to ensure it meets a certain standard and that there is a lay-by to enable those passing by to pull in? Such measures save local authorities from future demands while making the road safer.
These measures are essential to keeping indigenous people in rural areas. It is crazy not to implement them. I am reminded of a story involving two people living in a farming community. One said to the other, "I am shocked you sold a site"– that would be the old farming way. He went on, "Your father would turn in his grave if he knew you sold the site." The other fellow responded quickly, "Yes, he will take a second turn when he hears what I got for it." People living on the land can only share in the Celtic tiger by selling a site and bringing another person into their community. Above all, it enables them to make further progress on buildings without borrowing.
I thank you, a Leas-Chathaoirligh, for affording me the time to contribute to this debate. I also thank Senators for their contributions.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
That concludes the statements. When is it proposed to sit again?
Next Wednesday at 2.30 p.m.
The Seanad adjourned at 12.30 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 25 October 2000.