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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 11 Apr 2001

Vol. 166 No. 5

Third Level Education: Motion.

I move:

That Seanad Éireann urges the Government to introduce measures to facilitate the attendance of undergraduates from Northern Ireland at universities in the Republic; furthermore it strongly encourages a new initiative to negotiate reciprocal academic scholarships and student grants with the Government of the United Kingdom and the Northern Ireland Executive to enable residents of all communities in both parts of Ireland to study at third level in each other's universities.

The Universities Bill, which was introduced in this House some years ago, spelt out as one of its objectives that one of the fundamental objectives of universities in this country was to promote good relationships between both communities in Northern Ireland and the communities here. That was an amendment which was proposed initially by me, accepted by the Minister of the day and supported by all sides of the House. Those objectives are now enshrined in law. It is with this in mind that I put down this motion tonight. It is not good enough just to have an aspiration. Nobody believes that aspirations expressed by politicians are meaningful unless they are transformed into concrete measures.

I thought that the Government would accept this motion this evening without dilution and accept that concrete measures could be taken to facilitate an exchange between undergraduates here and in Northern Ireland, at the very least. One of the worst aspects of a university education in Ireland in the past two decades has been the reduction in numbers of students coming to the Republic from Northern Ireland. More than 25 years ago when I was at Dublin University – sorry, 30 years ago—

Those are sixth class sums.

I was a very backward student, unlike Senator O'Toole. When I left Dublin University 30 years ago, the numbers of undergraduates from Northern Ireland and from both communities ran into the teens in percentage terms. It was a very large number. That resulted in an exchange of views between people educated in the Republic and people educated in Northern Ireland, which was greatly to the benefit of both communities. Unfortunately, since then the numbers have declined dramatically, partly as a result of the troubles which broke out in 1969. The numbers now are, in the case of Dublin University, below 5%. Figures I received today from Dublin University indicate that only 107 people were admitted from Northern Ireland last year out of a total of 2,051 undergraduates. The year before saw 124 out of 2,129 undergraduates. This is less than 5% and is declining. The figures from UCD are even worse. Only 1.36% of the undergraduate numbers now come from Northern Ireland. That is pitiful by any standards. If the Government is serious about cross-community education, cross-Border education and a cross-Border exchange of views, it could respond to this motion, not with an amendment but by saying that it will facilitate and promote the exchange of undergraduates from both sides of the Border.

There are other difficulties which I must acknowledge. In recent years a habit has grown of undergraduates going from Northern Ireland to Scotland. That habit is becoming more and more entrenched and the pattern has, to some extent, supplanted the previous one of Northern Ireland undergraduates coming south, particularly to Dublin University. That is a shame. Edinburgh and other universities in Scotland have replaced Dublin University as the natural place of third level education for these undergraduates.

There are other reasons. Universities in the United Kingdom, to which many students are directed, now make early offers of places. These must be accepted and, in many cases, money deposits given. Having accepted these offers it is often very difficult for students to renege on their acceptances, sacrifice deposits and come to southern universities, even if they have made application here.

There is also the obvious difficulty of different examinations. It is harder to equate A levels with the leaving certificate than to equate one A level with another. It is more natural for people who have been educated in the United Kingdom system to go to universities which accept A levels as their natural entrance qualification than to deal with the Irish system of equation which some regard as unfair, variable and difficult to make a judgment on. These are the difficulties which are put in front of us and offered as reasons for this decline.

There are also difficulties about the universities not promoting themselves sufficiently or effectively in Northern Ireland. It is doubtful if southern universities particularly want students from Northern Ireland or if they care about this matter or regard it as their role to promote cross-community and cross-Border education.

Incentives from the Government are needed to push the universities to promote their great benefits to people across the Border who are thinking of coming here and financial incentives are needed for people who are thinking of coming to study in the Republic. I am talking about special arrangements for people from the North to study here. Preferential maintenance grants and scholarships should be given to people in all communities in Northern Ireland to come to all the universities down here. The Government must open negotiations with the British Government so it will give reciprocal grants to people from here to go to Northern Ireland. If people gain a financial benefit it will be easier for them financially to come here than to go to universities in their own localities. It would be worth it. Some things are worth giving Government subsidies for, particularly the greater good of the whole island and better community relations.

Such measures would also help Northern Ireland universities. The number of people from outside who go to universities in Northern Ireland is pitifully small. It is regarded by many as a very localised and inward looking province. We will become inward looking if we do not encourage people from Northern Ireland and overseas to come here.

I am disappointed the Government has proposed an amendment to a non-contentious motion for which I would have expected all-party agreement and which was deliberately phrased to make it almost impossible to oppose. I am disappointed it took so long – until 3.30 this afternoon – for the amendment to reach the Independent Senators. It is unusual to receive an amendment so late in the day. I presume some bright manda rin in the Department suddenly saw some hidden danger in this motion and decided that an amendment must be put down to dilute it.

I am disappointed the Government has used this opportunity to congratulate itself and to take credit for what has been happening under an EU umbrella. In anticipating what the Minister may say, I hope he does not refer to grant entitlements already due to residents of Northern Ireland. These grants are due to anyone in the European Union and are not a special entitlement. They are mostly gained by virtue of residency over a period of five years or more.

I am disappointed the Minister did not take the time or trouble to propose specific measures which could be taken. In this Chamber we have a model which has served us well. I congratulate successive Governments on taking significant initiatives in 1981, 1982, 1983 and subsequent years. One of the most enlightening injections to this House was the introduction of Members from Northern Ireland who were appointed by the Taoiseach. Senator Manning and I have served with all of them. People like Seamus Mallon and Gordon Wilson may have provided something of a culture shock to all of us when they arrived, but they educated us and taught us more about the point of view of the opposition than we could ever have taught ourselves. We had some excellent debates about the North in which people spoke with authority on issues.

In the past in Dublin University – the only one I feel qualified to talk about – there were amazing and very emotional exchanges of view between undergraduates in debating chambers and inside and outside various societies where people of both communities were introduced to each other. Unfortunately that has virtually gone. I would like the Minister to play a small part in promoting its return by asking the universities to consider quotas of students from Northern Ireland on a reciprocal basis by giving financial incentives to those who wish to come here and by getting reciprocal arrangements from the Government of the United Kingdom and the Northern Ireland Executive.

I thank Senator Ross for asking me to second this motion. I have rarely felt so comfortable in supporting a motion tabled by Senator Ross as I do on this occasion. I am saddened by the Government amendment. It is unnecessary and I appeal to the Minister not to pursue it. I am sure Senator Ross would accept the Government amendment as an addendum to the main motion. It will portray a very poor image of the House if a motion which merely asks that something be facilitated and strongly encouraged is opposed.

I spent yesterday meeting, among others, the Northern Ireland Deputy First Minister and the Minister for Education. When I talked to them about taking a common approach to third level education I found them completely open to the idea. On coming down here the following day I found a completely different approach. This is not good enough. The Minister needs to take this by the scruff of the neck. I appeal to him to find a way to make this work.

There should be a common application scheme for third level colleges on this island. This has been requested before. The INTO put the question to the previous Minister and possibly to this one also. It has not happened. Is it beyond our capabilities to produce an application form which would be compatible with the needs of UCAS and the CAO in order to cover the whole island? I believe this is crucial.

The Government amendment sends out an unacceptably negative signal, one which does not reflect the views of people on any part of the island. It also contravenes Government policy as articulated by its spokesmen over a period of time and is at odds with the joint initiatives which the Minister has undertaken with Minister McGuinness. The Minister should look at this issue again.

Apart from the issues raised by Senator Ross in proposing it, this is a good idea because it could lead to a greater degree of mutual recognition of qualifications on a European level for those people with professional qualifications on both parts of the island. That is something that has not yet been achieved. I can give examples in relation to teaching and the Minister is no doubt tired of hearing them. The President of the INTO, speaking in Belfast this week, said that it should not be necessary for every teacher in the Republic to be qualified in the Irish language in order to ensure that every pupil has access to Irish, the option of being taught through Irish, and that those requiring an all-Irish education could avail of it. We have to be open.

The President of the INTO can say we should be able to recognise that people from the northern half of the island who would wish to complete all their education through English should be accommodated. If that is not the case then I believe we are not reflecting the true spirit of a republic. At the moment there is a shortage of teachers in the Republic and a corresponding over-supply in the North. This problem could easily be resolved if we had a greater respect and a mutual recognition of each other's qualifications.

This motion as proposed could lead to significant academic achievement, as it would allow colleges to gain a reputation by specialising in certain areas. In my last conversation with the Minister the issue of the shortage of educational psychologists was addressed. It is not a reflection on colleges of education in the Republic to say that Queen's is the most professionally advanced in the field of educational psychology. This is an area they have developed and brought forward and we should recognise it. There are also economies of scale that can be achieved by allowing resources to be put into certain colleges for certain courses for certain qualifications.

This is a crucially important motion in terms of the real issues on this island, in terms of parity of esteem, in terms of the recognition and accommodation and openness to difference, in terms of a welcome to people from different backgrounds and communities. I appeal to the Minister to look closely at what is being said in terms of what can be done. It would be cynical if not hypocritical not to accept this motion while the Minister and Minister McGuinness are trying to get the National Council for Curriculum Assessment (NCCA) in the Republic to work with the Council for Curriculum Examinations and Assessment (CCEA) in the North. How can we move with large structures if we are not prepared to allow movement for people on the ground?

In terms of what we are doing here, there are questions of compatibility, synthesis of content and a mutually agreed curricular approach. I raised the question at a North-South meeting some 18 months ago as to who would have the courage to produce a history course encompassing both the sash and the shamrock. It is possible to address these issues.

There is nothing in this motion which contravenes either the policy of the Minister or the amendment before us. Why can we not simply put "and" between them both and show a common approach to an issue on which I hope we are all of a united mind? Let us be able to say that this is where we stand, and move things forward on that basis.

Let us say that we really believe in parity of esteem and prove that we are open to people from a different background. Let us show that we are open to making the necessary movement to accommodate those people who have a slightly different approach. Let us also be realistic in terms of the mutual recognition of qualifications and the significant academic gain that can be made, and the economies of scale.

I hate quoting people of some hundred or more years ago, but if we read Newman's The Idea of a University, its essence is the interaction between people of different backgrounds, the debate and the cultural attachment made between people. This occurs most easily in an environment where there are slight differences of approach, slight tensions and people coming at the same problem from different perspectives and bringing new, creative abilities to bear on it, as well as by people learning from each other.

Anything which allows people from different cultural, political and traditional backgrounds to learn with and about each other, can only be in the best interests of the future of the country. It will help to create a generation which is more tolerant, open, progressive and understanding. The Ministers' Northern counterparts have just produced a major document on tolerance in education.

I know him well enough to know that this is also the view of the Minister who has proven himself time and again to be open on and supportive of these issues. I urge that this amendment be changed to an addendum, allowing us to move forward. I have great pleasure in seconding Senator Ross's motion.

I move amendment No. 1:

To add "and commends the Government on the measures, including student supports and reciprocal academic scholarships, which facilitate mobility between third level students in Ireland, North and South, and between Ireland and Britain; and welcomes the NDP provisions for support of co-operative actions in research between third-level institutions on this island".

It took me about two minutes to understand how I would put an addendum to this. I understand and agree with the viewpoints of Senators Ross and O' Toole. The above wording adds up to the full sum of what they are saying. Now I can talk at ease, because earlier I was very much in sympathy with Senator Ross in relation to the points made. The motion urges the Government to facilitate the attendance of undergraduates from the Northern Ireland at universities in the Republic. That has to be taken as a statement in itself.

Wearing my other hat, I am a career guidance counsellor by profession, I am a member of the local authority and I was a member of County Dublin VEC for nine years, yet I had a difficulty in understanding what support systems existed for students in Ireland or for those who moved from the North to the South or the South to the North. The word "facilitate" is good and is one we should latch on to in regard to what is available and what could be available under North-South co-operation. The Government has brought forward measures for student support, particularly in regard to the second part of the motion which encourages a new initiative to negotiate reciprocal academic scholarships and student grants. I did some research on that. Student support grants are available at undergraduate level but I ask the Minister to make that fact more widely known to those who are trying to administer them. Maintenance grants will have to be reviewed and the Government is looking at how best it can bring forward initiatives in this area.

On the question of reciprocal arrangements for North-South scholarship co-operatives, I understand the purpose of the Irish Post-graduate Research Bureau is to enhance scholarship schemes. I understand the Irish Research Council, serviced by the Higher Education Authority, is a new mission for cross-Border initiatives and co-operation. The Minister has announced that a new science research council is coming on board and that it will be presided over by the Provost of Trinity College. These are initiatives that will encourage North-South co-operation, be it the flow of students from the North to the South or the South to the North. The Government is doing its work.

Under the National Development Plant the Government has provided £12 million over a six year period for North-South collaboration in research. That is a new initiative but it may not be known in the wider arena. Perhaps our colleges are not implementing the ideas put forward by the Government. I suggest the presidents of all universities, North and South, should sit around the table and discuss how best to use the money the Government has allocated. Will the universities in the North and elsewhere allocate funds to enhance North-South, cross-Border, across-the-Irish-Sea thinking? There will have to be a consensus approach. The universities may be sitting back. They are intellectual academics who presume everybody understands what is happening in the background when that is not the case. Neither do guidance counsellors know what money is available to undergraduates and post-graduate students and how it should be tapped.

The North-South agreements and the new Northern Assembly of Education should enhance consultation and co-operation. I agree with Senator Ross that we must facilitate all that action and further consultation and co-operation. The Government should be commended on providing the money. I suggest the presidents of the universities sit around the table and decide how best that £12 million can be spent in the enhancement and promotion of mobility of students, be it from the North to the South or the South to the North, or even across the Irish Sea. As a member of the European Union we have to respect the regulations. As this is a European regulation we should all come together for the purpose of enhancing the education of our young people in the European Union and particularly North-South co-operation. The motion in the name of Senator Ross with the Government's addendum is the way forward and I hope the Minister will take it on board.

It is difficult to disagree with anything Senator Ross has said or that the Minister will say in his contribution. It is only common sense that, given our history, on a small island we should encourage the greatest degree of co-operation. There is a great deal of co-operation at third level, co-operation between the presidents of universities and between individual departments and disciplines. The number of inter-disciplinary institutes, bodies and associations set up in recent years is impressive. The amount of travelling between universities is also impressive and there is a degree of pooling of resources which did not exist in the past. All that is good and is basic common sense. It probably always existed at a lesser level and will continue.

There is not much point in the Minister's amendment which will become an addendum. Why Ministers like to commend themselves like small children wanting to be commended for doing something good escapes me. We will let it proceed since it is seconded by Senator Ross. However, a number of points have to be made.

There is a great danger of making education a political tool and making it serve the purpose of peace and greater understanding. That is not what education should be about. Education has values and rights in its own regard and it is these that should have priority. If I was asked today what should be the priority in our third level education system I would go back to the 1916 Proclamation which says that all the children of the nation should be treated equally. Today access from deprived areas in the Republic is a much bigger problem than providing places for people from Northern Ireland. It should have a much greater priority. Universities and the Department should put greater resources into sustaining the types of programmes which will not only encourage people into but help them to remain for the full duration of the course. The second priority in our third level system must be the achievement of excellence in post-graduate research. If we cannot achieve standards of excellence our universities will not have the sort of recognition worldwide that they need. They will not be able to provide the types of supports and research for industry which will keep the economy going. That also has to be one of the great priorities.

Our third level system has to be flexible so that it can adapt to the changing conditions in society. It has to promote excellence not only in the sciences but in the arts and the humanities and it must be able to attract some of the best students from overseas at post-graduate level because many Irish students in the current prosperity find it more attractive to take a job immediately after doing their primary or master's degree rather than go into post-graduate work. All these are more important than encouraging cross-Border co-operation. They are much more important in the long-term sustainability of our education system.

This is a time of year when I am asked daily by my students for advice on where to go for post-graduate work. I rarely advise them to go to Northern Ireland. I advise them to go to the places where they will get the best possible training in their disciplines, occasionally it is Northern Ireland, but I would put their future ahead of making any political statement through cross-Border co-operation, good as that may be in its own way. If the conditions in Northern Ireland are right and if they can attract our students, we should encourage them to go there but we should not make pawns out of them by sending them to courses for which they may not be suitable.

Senator Ross spoke eloquently about the great benefits in the past of having large numbers of Northern students down here, but he is wrong. Most of the Northern students who came down in my time and later in his time, if Catholic, went to UCD where they were very much part of the Nationalist tradition. They learned little which would have made it easier for them to break down barriers when they returned to Northern Ireland. When they came to Trinity College, they came to what was still an Anglo enclave in the middle of Dublin where they met few Catholics or Nationalists and where many of their own feelings were, probably, reinforced. Let us not romanticise the past.

What is the position with regard to students from Northern Ireland? In the case of UCD, for which I can speak, a total of 1,000 students from Northern Ireland applied through the CAO for places. One quarter of that number were made offers, but only 50 took up places. The reasons they did not take up places were, we believe, the cost of living in Dublin and the cost of accommodation, costs that face all out of town students. It might be possible to subsidise students from Northern Ireland, but will we thereby discriminate against students from Cork, Kerry and so forth who also wish to come to Dublin? I do not know the answer. The main reason for the small take-up of places is the cost of living and accommodation in Dublin. It is not ideological.

In UCD there is a tradition of holding a certain number of places in the faculties of medicine and veterinary medicine for students from Northern Ireland. These are areas which, probably, could be examined. With regard to the school liaison programme in UCD, for which I can only speak, the number of visits it makes to schools in Northern Ireland is almost equal to the number of visits it makes to schools in the Republic. The university is doing its bit to reach out and to, at least, make the courses known to students. In the coming year students from Northern Ireland will be eligible for entrance scholarships. Such scholarships were only awarded on leaving certificate results. These are just some of the developments taking place.

Everything Senator Ross said was unexceptional which, for him, is a record. Normally he manages to insult a few people and make a few controversial statements in the course of even a brief contribution, but everything he said tonight was apple pie and motherhood, as it were. They were aspirations to which all Members would aspire. It is important, however, to keep the issue in perspective. Education should not be used as a tool in a peace process, however worthy that is. Students should not become part of an experiment. The first priority should be the interests of the students and providing them with the best education possible.

I welcome the sentiments of the motion and will do anything I can to promote co-operation between North and South in this area. I appreciate that more could, probably, be done in terms of making the opportunities, possibilities and supports known. More could also be done to find out the reasons people are shying away from taking up places in the South. Senator Manning thinks it is the cost—

It is a factor.

It is a factor, but we should know more about the reasons. I welcome the opportunity afforded by the motion to speak about the Government's efforts to promote co-operation in higher education with Northern Ireland and Britain. Co-operation in the field of education between both parts of the island and with Britain has been greatly facilitated by the establishment of the new institutions under the Good Friday Agreement.

Senators will be aware that under strand two of the Agreement education was one of the six areas identified and agreed for co-operation through the mechanism of existing bodies in each jurisdiction. To date, two meetings of the North-South Ministerial Council in education sectoral format have been held and a number of joint working groups established in relation to the following areas prioritised for action: education for children with special needs, educational underachievement, teacher qualifications and school, youth and teacher exchanges.

Unfortunately, due to prevailing political circumstances, it has not proved possible to hold a meeting of the education sector North-South Ministerial Council, NSMC, since last July. Work on this and a range of other areas, however, has been ongoing between officials from both jurisdictions in the interim and I hope circumstances will allow for the resumption of formal NSMC meetings at the earliest possible date.

The NSMC, meeting in plenary format last September, agreed to commission a study of obstacles to mobility between the two parts of the island. This study will examine the obstacles in both the public and private sectors in a wide range of areas, including education and the recognition of qualifications. The study is being taken forward by a steering group of officials from both North and South which will report to the council. My Department will contribute to the examination of obstacles which is being conducted by consultants commissioned for the purposes of the study.

Although there is no formal provision in the institutional framework established under the Good Friday Agreement for a North-South Ministerial Council on higher and further education, I have met informally with the Minister, Dr. Farren, on a number of occasions. In addition, my officials have had ongoing meetings with their counterparts in the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment with a view to enhancing co-operation in a number of areas in our common interests. These areas have included the development of relationships between the Higher Education Authority and the Northern Ireland Higher Education Council and the role of the Conference of Rectors of Irish Universities, CRI, in promoting co-operation between the nine universities on the island.

The CRI was formed by the heads of these nine institutions in 1992 to encourage and facilitate greater North-South university collaboration. In the intervening period the CRI has worked with officials of my Department and others with a view to substantially increasing the level of co-operation within the university sector on the island. The CRI launched a directory of such collaboration in June last year. The publication demonstrates the contribution being made by the universities to increased North-South co-operation and understanding in areas as diverse as music and biochemistry.

Other areas for discussion have included research and development, enhancing links with enterprise and adult basic education. Potential areas for future discussion of collaborative initiatives might include mutual recognition of qualifications and addressing skills needs on an all-Ireland basis. The latter could involve the assessment of supply and demand for the entire island. A case could be made for consideration to be given to adopting a joint approach to high cost specialised provision.

Improved networking between researchers at university level has been facilitated by the work undertaken by the CRI and will be further facilitated by the availability of funding for collaborative activities under the national development plan. In addition, support is being made available under the NDP to enhance information networks between institutions, North and South. This will involve upgrading the link between the HEA-net and the North's JANET. It will significantly reduce response times and facilitate real time research and collaborative activities.

Uniquely, Ireland's National Development Plan and its Northern equivalent share a common chapter which has been approved in both jurisdictions. It provides an agreed context within which a number of co-operation measures may be progressed. The common chapter of the NDP acknowledges the considerable co-operation across all aspects of the education sector, North and South, including higher and further education. It recognises that the valuable linkages which have been developed provide the basis to establish more closely integrated, coherent approaches in the future with clearer policy objectives and outcomes.

The common chapter identifies the type of activities which will be promoted, including interactive approaches at university and further education level in areas such as research and development, support for small and medium enterprises and the development of lifelong learning, adult guidance and counselling programmes. In this context, funding for North-South collaborative research activities is set aside under the strategic research sub-measure – one of four education sub-measures – in the productive sector operational programme of the National Development Plan, 2000-06. The total funding allocated to North-South activities over the duration of the plan is £12 million or 15.2 million, of which £9 million is recurrent and the balance is capital. The strategic research sub-measure is co-financed by the European Regional Development Fund, with £1.8 million allocated towards the North-South strand.

The aim of the North-South sub-measure is to facilitate and encourage cross-Border co-operation and research between third level institutions. Discussions are ongoing with Northern officials with a view to developing a strategic approach to effecting this provision. I expect to be in a position shortly to announce details of a scheme to promote developments in this area.

There is also a significant international dimension to the programme for research in third level institutions – PRTLI. As part of cycle 3, announced in December 2000, funding will be made available for the development of strategic co-operation with leading world institutions. Support will also be made available to enable the attraction of leading international researchers and research teams.

Regarding the technological sector, there have been a number of formal meetings between the Council of Directors of Institutes of Technology and the Association of Northern Ireland Colleges – ANIC – over the past two years. These meetings focused on a range of issues of mutual interest and led to the signing of a protocol on 20 September 2000. The joint protocol has many valuable and important elements. In the context of this protocol, both organisations have agreed, inter alia, to share staff and expertise on quality assurance panels, interview panels, external examiners and substitute teachers where appropriate; investigate in joint co-operation and with other national agencies joint purchasing arrangements; share information on good practices north and south of the Border; jointly seek funding for the development of a cross-Border project on national recognition of awards in further and higher education; share expertise, in particular in vocational areas of mutual benefit; plan together skills forecasts so that the labour force of the island of Ireland has the best possible training; and share contracts and networks to the mutual benefit of both organisations.

Regular contact is maintained between the council of directors and ANIC through their respective offices and I strongly welcome the initiative of ANIC and the Council of Directors of Institutes of Technology in agreeing this protocol. I have no doubt that the outcome will be of mutual benefit to the institutions, their staff and students, North and South. In this context, my Department has approved a proposal from the council of directors to proceed with a pilot project in open and distance learning. This project will include the development of an e-business module and the council will be inviting ANIC to become involved in this element of the pilot programme.

In another example of positive action, my Department has given approval to the Sligo Institute of Technology to commence a pilot project in conjunction with Fermanagh Institute of Further Education, Enniskillen, in the area of apprenticeship provision. The intention is to provide phase 4 training in carpentry and joinery. The pilot project will commence in 2001 and will run for a three-year period. Depending on the success of the project, consideration will be given to providing further apprenticeship training blocks in other skill areas.

Many of the institutes of technology, including Athlone, Cork, Dundalk, Letterkenny and Dublin, are involved in a number of cross-Border projects with local enterprise and training agencies and with several third level educational institutions in the North such as Magee College, University of Ulster and Queens University, Belfast. A number of these institutions have accessed funding under the EU INTERREG and peace programmes.

My Department is seeking to maximise support for education initiatives under the new EU Peace II Programme, the successor to the Special Support Programme for Peace and Reconciliation. Under the cross-Border priority of the Peace II Programme, measure 4 provides 10 million over four years, both North and South, for co-operation in the areas of higher and further education and training. Meetings between officials of my Department and the relevant Departments in the North are ongoing, with a view to identifying, in consultation with the Special EU Programmes Body and other agencies, appropriate priorities under this measure and drawing up programme complements. It is envisaged that priority areas in higher and further education should include research and development in higher education, to include e-learning, basic skills, including literacy and numeracy, enterprise education developing entrepreneurial and creative skills and retention in education, particularly of young males.

Institutional co-operation in higher education, both on a North-South basis and between Ireland and Britain, is also encouraged through other EU education programmes such as ERASMUS. I understand that for the year 1999-2000, 64 students went to the UK from Ireland, while 75 UK students came to Ireland under the programme in the same period.

As part of a general effort to promote co-operation between Ireland and Britain, a limited number of research scholarships are made available to Irish post-graduate students for study in the United Kingdom and for UK post-graduates to study in Ireland under the Ireland-Britain exchange scholarship scheme. The scheme is publicised in Britain by the Irish Embassy in London and in Ireland by the British council. For the academic year 2000-01 there are four British students studying under this scholarship scheme valued at £6,950 per annum, while 11 Irish students are studying in Britain where the value of the scheme is approximately £7,000 sterling.

In addition, the Irish Research Council for the Humanities and Social Sciences offers post-graduate research scholarships and post-doctoral awards in the areas of humanities, social sciences, law and business studies. These scholarships are open to applicants from EU member states, while the post-doctoral awards are open to applicants of all nationalities. The mission of the council includes the encouragement of excellence and the promotion of cross-Border co-operation in Ireland.

The flows of students between institutions in Ireland, North and South, over the five year period from 1993-94 to 1998-99 provide an interesting point of comparison. A total of 1,117 full-time students from the North were studying in the South in 1993-94, while 2,624 full-time students from the South were studying in the North in the same year. In comparison, 1,006 full-time students from the North came to study in the South in 1998-99, while 3,246 full-time students from the South were studying in the North in that period. Therefore, while there has been little difference over that five year period in the number of pupils coming to study here from the North, the number of Southern students going North to pursue their studies grew by 622, or almost 24%.

The flow of students between both jurisdictions on this island and between Ireland and Britain is facilitated by the free fees initiative and the third level student support schemes administered under the aegis of my Department by the local authorities and the vocational education committees. The third level student support schemes offer financial assistance to eligible students attending approved third level courses. Students from this State who are attending undergraduate courses in Northern Ireland can apply for maintenance grants in respect of approved courses at higher national diploma level or higher which are pursued in colleges approved for the purpose of our schemes. Maintenance grants are also made available to undergraduate students pursuing approved third level courses in other EU member states, including Britain. In general, the approved courses are those pursued in a third level institution, which is maintained or assisted by recurrent grants from public funds.

With the introduction of tuition fees in Northern Ireland, England and Wales all EU students, including Irish students, are eligible for grant assistance towards the tuition fees subject to the same conditions as apply to students who have been resident in Northern Ireland and Britain. This means that students from lower income families will receive full grant assistance towards the cost of their tuition fees. The maximum tuition fee payable in the 2000-01 academic year is £1,050 sterling. Students pursuing approved post-graduate courses in Northern Ireland can apply for assistance under the higher education grants scheme and the vocational education committees scholarship scheme in respect of maintenance grants and also grants in respect of the cost of their tuition fees, subject to a maximum fee limit, which is currently IR£3,064.

Tax relief has been available for tuition fees paid for full-time qualifying undergraduate courses in publicly funded universities or similar third level colleges in any EU member state, including Northern Ireland, since 1999-2000. The Finance Act, 2000, provided for the introduction of tax relief for post-graduate fees paid in publicly funded colleges here and in other EU member states, as well as in private colleges in the State. This relief, which is available for the tax year 2000-01 onwards, applies at the standard rate of tax and is available to full-time and part-time post-graduate students.

Under the free fees initiative, tuition fees are payable in respect of eligible EU nationals who have been ordinarily resident in a member state for at least three of the five years preceding entry to a third level course. This condition applies to all EU nationals in accordance with the judgment of the European Court of Justice that access to vocational training must apply equally to all EU nationals. EU nationals who are ineligible under the free fees initiative can apply for a means tested fees-only grant in respect of approved courses in third level institutions in this State subject to certain conditions.

Apart from the maintenance grants schemes and the free fees initiative, financial support is also available to students through the student assistance access fund. This fund is administered by third level institutions and provides direct financial support to disadvantaged students. I increased significantly the provision for this fund from £1.296 million in 1999 to £1.964 million in 2000. The fund is allocated annually among approved colleges and institutes and all students registered with the approved colleges may apply for assistance from this fund, irrespective of nationality.

Under the special fund for students with disabilities, allocations are given towards the provision of services and the purchase of equipment for such students who attend courses in third level institutions or post-leaving certificate courses. The scheme applies to students who have serious sensory, physical or communicative disabilities. Grants are provided to students for the purchase of special equipment, special materials, technological aids, targeted transport services, sign language assistance such as interpreters and personal assistants.

In 2000 I approved an allocation of £1,233,000 for the fund, a significant increase of £700,000 on the allocation for 1999. In the current academic year 512 students are being assisted from the fund and an allocation of over £84,000 has been made from the overall funding to students from here who are currently registered on courses in Britain and Northern Ireland. Students from Northern Ireland, who are registered in a third level institution or a post-leaving certificate course here, are eligible to apply for and receive aid from this fund.

Senators will agree that this summary of provision for students from here who are studying in Northern Ireland and Britain, and for students from Northern Ireland and Britain who come here to study, represents a generous package of measures to facilitate students to attend the third level institution of their choice here, in Northern Ireland or in Britain. I have set out the broad range of activities currently taking place to promote co-operation in this sector. I favour the maximising of co-operation in education on this island and with Britain, with a view to ensuring the highest quality of provision and the broadest range of opportunity. I am anxious to promote the mobility of pupils, students, academic staff and researchers on the island. I am confident the steps taken to date will provide a solid foundation for achieving these objectives. I will continue to explore the possibilities for further extending co-operation in the third level and wider education sectors in the context of available resources.

Some of the points Senators have made are relevant, for example, we will have to look closely at how courses are advertised to ensure what is available is fully understood. Universities are very keen in that regard as they seek to attract students from Northern Ireland and further abroad. They pursue candidates widely, as do universities in the United Kingdom who particularly target undergraduate students. There is a big scramble to get good research graduates for post-doctoral work which I agree must be encouraged on a North-South basis. This debate will serve as a reminder to me to do more in that area.

I thank Senator Ross for initiating this interesting debate. It is appropriate that we debate this matter in the Seanad, where Senator Quinn initiated an amendment to the George Mitchell Scholarship Fund Bill making scholarships available to American students in universities on both parts of the island. We all know what a success that has been. The Minister, Deputy Woods, has given us extremely interesting figures on students crossing the Border for full-time education. There have probably never been more students going north of the Border and I will return to the numbers involved, which are amazing.

The Minister mentioned the extremely good co-operation at post-graduate level which has existed for some time. I wonder if post-graduate study is more worthy of our concentration than undergraduate study. Any problems I have encountered as regards post-graduate co-operation have originated from the northern side of the Border because grants could only be given within the United Kingdom. Co-operation in Northern Ireland had to take place with Great Britain and was not possible with the Republic of Ireland. To my relief and that of the Minister, I am sure, we managed to change that so that co-operation between departments became possible on a North-South basis.

A very important nutrition survey in the Minister's discipline has just been completed by University College Cork, Trinity College Dublin and the University of Ulster. It showed the importance of research on an all-Ireland basis. An enormous amount of such co-operation is taking place, for example, into micro-electronics in UCC and the University of Ulster, which is very important.

Senator Ross rightly pointed out that a small proportion of students here are from Northern Ireland, less than 5% in the case of Trinity College. For almost 150 years, until about 30 years ago, Trinity College was associated with Magee College in Derry. People could spend two years studying in Magee College and then come to Trinity to graduate with a Trinity degree. While the numbers now coming to Trinity are very low, this is because very few people from the North come to study science, the arts or sociology. We need to look carefully at the situation in professional schools all over the island. Senator Manning spoke of setting a quota from the North for some professional schools, which I would be anxious about. At least 30% of the intake to the school of law in Trinity College in the past five years, including courses in law and French, law and German and legal science, has been from Northern Ireland,.

I do not want to get into a discussion about the merits or otherwise of A levels as opposed to the leaving certificate. My anxiety about keeping a certain number of places for people from Northern Ireland is that it is much more difficult to get six A1s, or three A1s and three A2s, in the leaving certificate than to get high marks in three A levels. This seriously affects our students' ability to compete for places in professional schools. I do not suggest that we need to put a quota on Northern students to keep them out, but we need to look at the matter very carefully.

Law has been the most seriously affected faculty and I have received complaints about that for many years, but medicine has been affected too. Between 15% and 20% of places on medicine courses in Trinity College are being taken by students from Northern Ireland. The figure may be smaller in other schools of medicine but not by much, certainly it is still almost 15%. There is huge competition to get into these schools. High A level results are easier to acquire than three very difficult A1s and A2s in higher level papers in the leaving certificate. Other courses like pharmacy, veterinary medicine and dairy science in UCC are heavily subscribed by students from the North.

I am aware that there is greater justification for this here because, after all, these are all-island schools, but I would like to be made aware of the success level of students from the Republic of Ireland applying, for instance, to the universities of Edinburgh and Cambridge for courses in veterinary medicine before I would be inclined to say that those coming here from Northern Ireland should receive preferential treatment.

I have a great deal of sympathy for those applying to professional schools in the United Kingdom, which includes Northern Ireland, who must compete with leaving certificate results which are made available two to three weeks later than A level results. These students, therefore, are at a disadvantage in that all the available places may have been taken.

The University of Ulster is, probably, the recipient of most students from the South who study outside the State. I was extremely pleased to be given an honorary doctorate in science by it some years ago and at the conferring ceremony I was fascinated by the number present from County Donegal. I wonder how many of the 2,000 students concerned are commuting to Derry. It would not involve travelling a great distance which we envisage when people must come to Dublin for undergraduate education. For students in County Donegal, it is quite natural to travel to Derry. I would be interested in seeing a breakdown of the figures. An illustrious Member of the Oireachtas, Deputy Cecilia Keaveney, is a graduate of the university. Whereas many from Northern Ireland always travelled to Dublin for music education, it is interesting that there is now a flow of students for such education to the University of Ulster. This cross-fertilisation cannot but be good.

The Minister spoke about people with disabilities who perhaps are being catered for better in Northern Ireland. Do we have any idea of the number of people with disabilities, especially from peripheral areas around the Border, who study in Northern Ireland? It is important to take geography into account in this exercise and remember what is practical.

I was glad to hear Senators say that the universities have been doing their bit. Trinity College Dublin has had a schools liaison officer, Mr. David O'Neill, for at least ten years whom I am aware has visited schools in the North for, at least, that many years. The university has, therefore, been trying to encourage people to study here.

In the motion Senator Ross refers to scholarships and maintenance grants. The latter may be even more important. I would prefer to use the word "bursaries" or "sizarships" instead of the word "scholarship" because we should not have people coming here on an academic basis only. If there are people who want to come here to study in areas of special interest, it is most important that they are facilitated. While I support all the ideas about undergraduate education, it is the blossoming at postgraduate level which we all should celebrate. It has been splendid.

When Senator Ross showed me the text of the motion my mind immediately jumped to what happened with the George Mitchell scholarship a couple of years ago. The House may recall that the scholarship was presented to honour Senator George Mitchell. The concept was that the students, usually from America, would study in Ireland. Although the Bill had passed through the Dáil, we discovered that it would be limited to study in the State. Fortunately, we discovered this in this House and the then Minister, Deputy Martin, responded to the recognition that this would be out of kilter with the intention, that somebody might, possibly, come from the United States to engage in peace studies in Ireland only to be told that the scholarship did not cover study in the Six Counties. First we were told that it could not be done because the Attorney General or somebody else had said that there would be a problem, but the then Minister, Deputy Martin, returned the following day and said that they had found a way around the problem. I was particularly pleased last month, when the first students took up the George Mitchell scholarship, that several of them had decided to pursue their studies in Northern Ireland rather than in the Republic. This is a reminder of what can go wrong with our thinking. Nobody said that we should exclude Northern Ireland. What happened was that it did not cross anybody's mind to include it. It needed a change of mindset.

That is the reason I welcome the motion which, in effect, is an effort to try to remind us that we can do something differently. It seems that common sense dictates that students living on the island should be able to attend any university, North or South. For some reason, however, administrative barriers intervene and stop this happening. The main administrative barrier is in our minds because when we put together plans for scholarships or grants it seems that we do not think matters through. This does not mean that there is no cross-Border liaison because there are students who cross the Border to study. It happens more, however, under the EU framework than under the relationships between North and South. We must find a way of reminding ourselves that this should happen and must be encouraged if we are to achieve reconciliation on the island.

In this context, I thought of a country I visited a couple of years ago, Cyprus, which is much smaller than Ireland. In 1974, Cyprus was partitioned. The barbed wire meant that there was no contact, even by post or telephone, between those who lived on the Turkish side and those who lived on Greek Cypriot side of the island. In the intervening 27 years, students growing up on Cyprus have been unable to study, meet, communicate or talk to students from the other side. In contrast, one must look at the opportunities available on this island where people from both sides have had the opportunity to cross the Border. We do not avail of the opportunity to cross the Border as often as we should and, certainly, do not avail of the opportunities to study. To study reconciliation properly one must live in that part of the world. If we do not provide students with an opportunity to study there, we will create a huge barrier to our ability to achieve the reconciliation which we are seeking to encourage.

To return to the point I made about the George Mitchell scholarship, the thinking of which I was critical was not deliberate. Nobody said, "Let us bar students from going north". Our Administration did not even think of it. At the time I accused us of partitionist thinking, although the thinking behind the scholarship was the very opposite. Those who do not believe in partition are the very ones who do not think of the North as part of this country. We must change this mindset. I welcome the motion from that point of view because it brings to mind what can be done. I also welcome the words used by Senator Ross in the motion because he throws out some suggestions and ideas and recommends actions which we can take. It deserves our support.

I thank the Minister, Senators Henry, Quinn and Manning and all those who surround me with honorary doctorates from various universities – I do not think the Minister's is an honorary doctorate – for their participation in the debate which has been constructive in that we have reached a degree of agreement about the need for the aspiration which we have all expressed. Perhaps it is disappointing in terms of material proposals because the Minister has not come up with a commitment on reciprocal agreements between North and South or reciprocal grants.

As the only opposition to the proposals I put came from Senator Manning, and it was calm, reasoned and logical—

I was sceptical.

—I take this opportunity to respond to one or two of the points he made. I do not argue to any extent with the point he made about the need to give educational opportunities to the poor. It is a point at the forefront in UCD and Trinity College Dublin and has been well publicised recently. I would hate it to be misinterpreted that there is competition in terms of giving places to people from Northern Ireland or priority being given to people there over the need to give places of this sort to people from poor backgrounds or people who cannot afford it. That is far from the truth. I do not wish to yield to anybody on that point. I accept the absolute crying need to give people from all backgrounds in the Republic as well as Northern Ireland equal access to university. This is not a competition between one and the other. This debate is simply about one of them.

Senator Manning's point about the applicants to UCD was well made. The figure I gave that only 1.36% of the entrants to UCD now come from Northern Ireland was given to me by UCD today and is true. I accept the figures the Senator gave that of the approximately 250 students offered places, only about 56 accepted. The Senator went on to say that the reason for that, which is interesting, and I am sure he is right, was probably the cost of coming to live in Dublin. If that is correct, he is making a strong argument for the motion I tabled.

I am talking unapologetically about subsidising these people. I make no bones about that. I say, "Give them the money to come here". If it is too expensive for them to live in Dublin, we should give them maintenance grants. We should remove the obstacles. We should say to them that while it is more expensive to come to live in Dublin, we will make it easier by removing that obstacle.

There are other obstacles which we, the Government and the universities can help to remove, which I suspect are the ones I pointed out, exams, the time difference involved and that people have to accept other offers. There are other reasons also, but I do not accept the criticism Senator Manning made. I apologise profusely for not insulting anybody today.

It is Holy Week.

That is because of the sense of piety during Holy Week. It is important we unite on issues of this sort. Some issues are too important to make political points of. I did not insult anybody today because we were to a large extent speaking in a sense of unity. There was apple pie, but there is no greater apple pie than coming out and saying "I stand for the poor". That is the greatest apple pie in the world. We all stand for the poor. The Senator stood for the poor today, but he should not get up and say "I stand for the poor" and then accuse me of apple pie. The Senator thumped me on the apple pie stakes this evening and then accused me of not insulting people enough – that was the most amazing performance. The Senator is an academic and I am not. He knows more about this issue than I do. He knows a great deal more about apple pie, he is a master of it. He did it well this evening and I congratulate him on that.

The Senator said that I referred to bringing people from Northern Ireland many years ago and to the atmosphere that existed then. He went on to say that I was romanticising about a period in the past, but he is completely wrong. I accept his bona fides. He may or may not be right about it having been an Anglo-Irish university at the time. I doubt if he is right, but that is a matter of definition. It was not, it had certain Anglo-Irish people in it. He was right when he said those were Unionists who came here then. I welcome that Unionists came here then and that they had an opportunity to mix with people here at the time. I would welcome even more if people from both communities were to come here now. They would come not to an Anglo-Irish university – the Senator was talking about 30 years ago – but to a university where almost all people there are from the Republic of Ireland. That is why I want them to come from both communities. I want Nationalists in the North to come to meet Nationalists in the South. We talk here sometimes as if there is some homogenous agreement between Nationalists in the North and Nationalists in the South, but nothing could be further from the truth.

If the minority community in Northern Ireland were to mix with people here, they would find huge differences and that is a divide that could also be bridged. Let us not pretend that one is parallel with the other. We are not living 30 years ago, we are talking about people from here going to a changed situation up there and about people from there coming to a situation, especially in the university I represent, Trinity College Dublin, that is dramatically and totally changed. That is why it is more important it should happen now than then because an exchange of views are being offered between two totally different communities now rather than the one, as Senator Manning pointed out, where there might have been similarities, where the exchange of views might not have provoked so much discussion and friction as it would now. That is why I proposed this motion. This is a fight worth fighting for. It is an issue worth fighting for. I hope the Minister will go away with serious intent to produce proposals so that between the communities a better atmosphere is fostered by our educational establishments.

Motion, as amended, agreed to.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

When it is proposed to sit again?

At 10.30 a.m. tomorrow.

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