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Seanad Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 12 Jun 2001

Vol. 167 No. 1

Euro Changeover (Amounts) Bill, 2001: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I am pleased to have the opportunity to present this Bill to the House. Its main purpose is, in necessary cases, to replace Irish pound amounts in law with convenient amounts in euro, to operate from 1 January 2002. The Bill also amends our law to take account of the fact that Greece has adopted the euro, and to cater for the closure of the TARGET settlement system on 31 December this year, and on 1 May each year from now on.

The background is as follows. Under Regulation (EC) No. 974/98, Irish pound amounts in law at end 2001 are from then on to be read as amounts in euro, converted at the fixed conversion rate of 1 = £0.787564 and rounded to the nearest cent.

As a result, convenient Irish pound amounts will convert to non-convenient amounts in euro, for instance, £10 converts to 12.70. Action is, therefore, being taken to provide, in necessary cases, for example, where amounts are usually paid in cash, for convenient amounts in euro to replace existingIrish pound amounts from the start of next year.

The Bill complements the work done on this issue, for instance, in this year's Finance Act and Social Welfare Act. It is aimed essentially at dealing with places elsewhere in law where Departments have identified a need for convenient amounts in euro. I stress that the principle on which the move to convenient amounts, where necessary, has been made is that in all such cases we should favour the citizen.

By way of background to the Bill, I propose to give the House a brief description of the current state of changeover preparations. Euro notes and coins will be introduced into circulation on 1 January 2002. There will then be a period of approximately six weeks while the use of euro cash will be increasing and the use of Irish cash will be decreasing. Under our cash changeover plan, published last year, legal tender status is to be withdrawn from Irish notes and coins at midnight on Saturday, 9 February 2002. This six week period strikes an appropriate balance between enabling people to familiarise themselves with the new currency and ensuring that the changeover is carried out quickly. In March I laid a draft order before both Houses of the Oireachtas to provide for the withdrawal of legal tender status at midnight on 9 February 2002. Senators will be aware that a resolution approving the order is being taken together with the debate on this Bill.

There are essentially six elements to the preparations for the changeover to the euro. These are legislation, the production of euro cash, preparations by the public sector, preparations by the private sector, consumer matters and the provision of public information. I have dealt with recent legislation in this area. Cash production will involve over 200 million euro notes and over 1,000 million euro coins, and I am assured by the Central Bank that production is on target.

Each Department and body is responsible for the changeover of its own operations, but they must report regularly to my Department. These reports continue to confirm that progress on implementation of the departmental changeover plans and those of the bodies under their aegis is on target. To give a single example of the work in hand, the child benefit books now being issued by the Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs include payment orders denominated in euro in respect of months from January next onwards.

As regards preparations by the private sector, the Forfás EMU Business Awareness Campaign was established in 1996 to provide businesses with the information they need to prepare themselves for the changeover. The campaign has distributed very large quantities of information to Irish businesses. Forfás has also involved business extensively in its campaign by means of its consultative committee, which includes a wide range of business organisations, and its retail group, which includes a wide range of retail organisations. The Forfás Loughrea Euro Town Project, under the aegis of the Minister of State, Deputy Treacy, provided excellent case studies of the practical experience of businesses making changeover preparations. The task of preparing businesses for the changeover is, of course, one for businesses themselves. The Forfás survey published in February clearly indicated that some businesses had not yet set about their changeover preparations. If there are still companies in that position, the message for them is clear. You must prepare now – by 1 January 2002, less than seven months away, your business must be able to operate in euro.

Within the business sector retailers have a particular role to play in the cash changeover. The House will be aware that under the cash changeover plan, retailers will give change only in euro from 1 January 2002 and that Irish notes and coins being received inwards will be retained and not issued outwards again. The purpose of these arrangements is obvious, to make sure the changeover to euro cash is carried out as quickly and efficiently as possible. This is particularly in the interests of retailers.

A number of measures are being taken to help retailers in their preparations for the changeover. The Euro Changeover Board has produced a computer programme that will help retailers to calculate their euro cash requirements for the first week of 2002. This programme is available as a compact disc or can be downloaded from the board's website at www.euro.ie. In addition, the board and the Central Bank have reached an agreement with the banks whereby, in return for a lodgement fee paid by the Central Bank, banks will not charge cash handling charges on euro cash provided to retailers in advance of 1 January 2002 or on Irish notes and coins lodged by retailers during the dual circulation period and for a short time afterwards. The banks are currently communicating with their retailer customers about their arrangements in relation to this agreement and in that context are giving details of the date next January on which they will debit retailer customers for the euro cash provided to them in advance of 1 January.

As regards retailers' internal preparations, Forfás has produced a document, Getting your retail businesses ready for the euro, of which over 170,000 copies of it have been issued, including one to every retailer in the country. Forfás is currently developing a training pack for retailers, and a copy of this also will be issued to every retailer in the country.

The consumer aspects of the changeover are being addressed by my colleague Deputy Kitt, Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment with responsibility for consumer affairs, and by the Director of Consumer Affairs. They relaunched the national code of practice on the euro changeover last December along with an action plan for consumer protection during the changeover. A key aspect of the code is that subscribers to it commit themselves to carrying out the changeover fairly and to seek no advantage from the conversion.

The Director of Consumer Affairs has sent the national code to over 200 organisations along with a sample letter for issue to their members and a form of undertaking, inviting them and their members to subscribe to that code or to draw up a suitable sectoral code for approval under the national code. Any approved code would have to contain the same commitment about carrying out the changeover fairly. Retailers who sign up to the code or to an approved sectoral code will be entitled to display a euro logo and the Director of Consumer Affairs will be advising consumers to shop where they see the logo.

The final element in the changeover preparations is the provision of public information. The Euro Changeover Board of Ireland has responsibility in this area and it has been carrying out very extensive public information activities since its establishment in a programme that is part funded by the EU. Among many other items, the board has sent a leaflet about the euro to every household, every year since its establishment. It has organised widespread circulation of leaflets, posters, booklets and other information materials, including educational material for schools and materials for every teacher. It has run several advertising campaigns on television and radio and in the press. It has set up a lo-call helpline and a website, the latter with a special section for schools, and it has made a train-the-trainers pack widely available for general use in both the public and voluntary sectors.

The needs of low awareness and special needs groups are catered for through the board's consultative panel. This panel includes organisations representing groups likely to have low awareness of the euro, essentially older people, people on low incomes, people based in the home and organisations representing people likely to have special needs in the changeover to the euro, for example, people with visual or hearing impairment.

Furthermore, the board runs a programme of part funding for non-governmental organisations carrying out euro information activities and many of the projects funded under the programme related to these groups. This programme has been operated by the board since 1998. Its most recent round of funding, which closed in early April, attracted over 150 applications. The board issues very large quantities of information. In the month of April alone, it issued over half a million items of information about the euro. Public information activities will of course intensify greatly in the autumn.

This is a short and technical Bill. It has been the subject of widespread consultation among interested parties, including those represented on the Euro Changeover Board of Ireland. Most of the money amounts covered in the Bill are routine fees and charges in respect of licences, permits, etc., which are or may be paid in cash. These are being reduced to the nearest convenient amount below the exact euro equivalent so as to favour the citizen. To take one example, Senators may be familiar with the deposit for candidates at elections to county councils. This currently stands at £50, which would convert to 63.49 at the conversion rate. However, in the Bill I provide for the more convenient, and easier to remember, amount of 60.

The Bill also includes a number of thresholds, and these are being increased to the nearest convenient, and memorable, euro amounts, again so as to favour the citizen. An example here is the £500 threshold for disclosure of gifts under the Ethics in Public Office Act, 1995, which would convert to 634.87. The Bill provides for a convenient amount of 650.

Section 1 provides for the replacement of Irish pound amounts, at specific references in Acts and statutory instruments, with convenient euro amounts to apply from 1 January 2002. It does so by means of general provisions which refer to the Schedules to the Bill.

Schedule 1 lists the Irish pound amounts being replaced, and the euro amounts to replace them, in respect of fees and charges and Schedule 2 lists the statutory references at which the replacement will take place. Similarly, Schedule 3 lists the Irish pound amounts being replaced, and the euro amounts to replace them, in respect of thresholds and Schedule 4 lists the statutory references at which the replacement will take place.

In all cases only the specific amount appearing at the exact statutory reference will be replaced. Other amounts appearing elsewhere in those Acts will not be affected, but will convert to euro at the conversion rate, under an EU regulation. Sections 2 and 3 provide respectively for dispensing with consents and for the continuation of existing powers to set amounts. They are included for the avoidance of doubt.

Section 4 provides for two amendments to the Economic and Monetary Union Act, 1998. The first updates the definition of "participating member state" in the 1998 Act to include Greece, which adopted the euro on 1 January last, and caters for the fact that other member states may do so. The second amendment enables the alignment of the withdrawal time of legal tender status from Irish pound notes and coins, intended for midnight on Saturday, 9 February 2002, with the repeal of earlier law under which Irish pound notes and coins are issued and under which limits are placed on the number of coins that may be tendered. The wording of the 1998 Act means repeals would come into effect from the start of the day for withdrawal of legal tender status from Irish notes and coins, whereas legal tender status would continue until the end of the day. The amendment will eliminate this gap. The draft order before the House on withdrawal of legal tender status has been drawn up on the assumption that the 1998 Act will be amended as provided for in this section. The order will not be made until this Bill has been enacted.

Section 5 amends section 135 of the Central Bank Act, 1989, to defer until the next working day the giving of value by banks in respect of transactions due for processing by them on a day when the TARGET interbank settlement system is closed by decision of the European Central Bank. This already happens in respect of public holidays as most days on which TARGET is closed correspond with our public holidays. Exceptions are Labour Day on 1 May as our public holiday is on the first Monday in May, and 31 December this year as the ECB has decided that TARGET should be closed to safeguard the smooth conversion of retail payment systems and internal bank systems to the euro. The ECB has welcomed our intention to introduce this provision.

Section 6 amends the Credit Union Act, 1997, in a number of ways with effect from 1 January 2002. It redefines a share in a credit union as one euro, instead of one pound, standing to the credit of a member in a share account. It makes a number of consequential changes to amounts dependent on the definition of a share and substitutes convenient amounts in euro for certain minimum and maximum amounts in the Act. Section 7 amends the Bankruptcy Act, 1988, with effect from 1 January 2002. It replaces five references to "pound in the pound" and "50 pence in the pound" with appropriate references to euro amounts. These amounts represent thresholds or targets in relation to the settlement of the debts of a bankrupt and govern matters like the discharge of the bankruptcy and the return of property when all debts and costs are settled.

Section 8 provides for the threshold for declaration of interest by staff of the Heritage Council. The Irish pound and euro amounts are included in Schedule 3, but 1,300 in figures is being substituted for the present "one thousand pounds" in words in the Heritage Act, 1995, in line with general drafting practice. Section 9 contains the usual citation provisions.

The main aim of the Bill is to provide, where necessary, for the replacement of Irish pound amounts in law with convenient amounts in euro to apply from 1 January 2002. Taken together with similar measures in finance and social welfare Acts, the Bill should broadly complete what might be called the euro pricelist for the more common transactions between the citizen and the State. Although the Bill is short and technical, it incorporates an important principle. The changeover should favour the citizen where convenience demands there must be a departure from neutral conversion. The Bill is also a further demonstration of the Government's commitment to making timely preparations for the changeover to the euro. I thank Senators for considering this Bill and for agreeing to take all Stages today.

As the Minister has said, this is a very technical Bill. Its purpose is to replace Irish pound amounts and to set down in law convenient amounts in euros, with effect from 1 January 2002. Fees and charges controlled by Government Departments or bodies, where amounts are paid in cash and need to be easily remembered, are being replaced. The fees and charges are set out in Schedule 4 of the Bill and are well explained in two tables attached to the explanatory memorandum.

On 1 January 2002, euro notes and coins will begin to be put into circulation and the withdrawal of Irish notes and coins will begin. There will be a dual circulation period, during which the use of euro notes and coins will be increased and the use of Irish notes and coins will be decreased. It is proposed that the dual circulation period should end at midnight on 9 February 2002. That is a very short period, less than six weeks. I am conscious of the work undertaken by the Euro Changeover Board of Ireland and Forfás in providing information for the business sector of our community, especially retailers. However, despite their best efforts – and the Minister referred to it this afternoon – I was disappointed to read in a recent report that, of all the countries joining the euro in 2002, Ireland is well behind other countries from a business point of view in preparing for the changeover.

Let me make a passing reference to the referendum on the Nice treaty. If we have learned anything from the outcome of that referendum, it is that many people did not vote because they were confused about the issues. The same confusion will arise in relation to the euro changeover, and that must be addressed. The lesson we must learn from the Nice treaty referendum is that we have to make clear to the public the issues involved.

My real concern is for the general public. Retailers have had a fair crack of the whip from the changeover board and Forfás. They have received all the information they want and should have their businesses in order for the changeover. However, this changeover will come as a great cultural shock to the people. We have redesigned Irish notes in recent years, but one rural retailer told me that people still come to his business with the old pound notes. This change will therefore be a tremendous shock to the system and will take some getting used to.

Recently I visited a school catering for children with intellectual disability where the pupils were participating in a project on the euro and, in order to facilitate the teachers, the changeover board had issued them with new notes. The notes had, of course been cancelled, but that was the first time I had handled these new notes. They are very colourful and very well designed and I think Irish people will like them. However, we need to make the public aware of these notes by issuing them in a sample form.

Young people will grasp this changeover very easily. The problem will be with our elderly population. They will find this currency change a great shock. I suggest that sample notes should be given to them one week in advance when they are collecting their old age pension so that they will be able to familiarise themselves with the new notes. A public information programme should also be put in place between now and 1 January 2002 to allow members of the public to familiarise themselves with the notes. Information leaflets and booklets are all very well, but it is very important that people see the notes.

I am delighted the Minister with responsibility for consumer protection intends to act as a watchdog for the general public to ensure that no one gains and that this conversion will favour the individual, as provided for in the Bill. It should be the principal role of the Minister and the Director of Consumer Affairs to act as watchdog on behalf of the public and make sure no one takes advantage of this conversion. People will still have old notes after 9 February. They will no longer be legal tender, but it is my understanding that the Central Bank will continue to take Irish notes and convert them. I understand there is no time limit for that, but I would like the Minister to confirm it.

In a single market it is very important to have a single currency. I therefore welcome the changeover to the euro. I hope it will improve the economy in respect of both trade and tourism. For that reason I am happy to support this measure with the caveats I have raised today.

I welcome the Minister to the House. This legislation is welcome. It takes us one step further towards the introduction of a single currency on 1 January 2001. This legislation is mainly technical, involving the rounding off of figures. The figures will be rounded down in most cases but up in some situations in the conversion to the euro.

Ireland is one of the few nations in Europe with experience of a currency changeover and we found it easy to handle. The change to decimalisation in 1971 was very smooth. We have also, to a great extent, had to deal with two currencies since 1979 – the pound sterling in the North and the punt here.

I am disappointed that the findings of a recent survey showed that certain businesses, in particular small retailers, have not geared themselves up to where they feel capable of dealing with the changeover from the punt to the euro. Perhaps that is the area on which the Minister should focus.

A number of other matters arise in relation to the changeover. One relates to the existence of trade with the farming community in Northern Ireland which has been part and parcel of farming here over the years. Coming from a farming background, I have always been aware of the import ance of exports and purchases to and from the Northern Ireland farming community particularly by farmers in the west and midlands. We may experience difficulty in that area given that the UK will not be joining the euro on 1 January, although there are indications that this policy may change following the general election in Great Britain and that there may be a momentum towards embracing the euro down the road. I would like the Minister to deal in particular with the question of the acceptance of sterling and the amounts to be given in lieu, and also the carrying of currencies across the Border, given that we will have the euro which is a single currency and that the pound sterling will continue to be used in the North. These are some of the teething problems we will face in that area. The Minister might address that in his reply.

Much debate has taken place about people capitalising on the changeover. At the time of decimalisation retailers and others capitalised by rounding up in their favour. The Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Tom Kitt, and the Director of Consumer Affairs must ensure there is an alert watchdog system in place to prevent a recurrence of that practice. If there is any adverse comment on the changeover it will centre on those who seize the opportunity to line their pockets.

That would not be a good development before a general election.

That is correct. However, when old age pensioners get their pensions in euros next February or March, which will have been increased again in the next budget, they will be very pleased with the result of five years of good governance, including the provision of major and unprecedented increases in pensions and social welfare payments.

I hope they will remember that. They were not there last week.

The Minister intends that there should be a watchdog to ensure that people do not abuse their position during the changeover. What penalties will apply to those found guilty of attempting to fleece the public? At the time of decimalisation in 1971 there was a general consensus that sections of the community who were in a position to round off prices did so in their favour. The public is concerned that the same does not happen at the start of next year. The Minister said that the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Tom Kitt, and the Director of Consumer Affairs will comprise the watchdog in this area. Will there be sufficiently severe penalties to inhibit retailers or others from attempting to fleece the public?

This is necessary technical legislation to give effect to the areas outlined by the Minister. I commend it to the House and I compliment the other side of the House for accommodating all Stages of the Bill today. The debate gives us the opportunity to obtain information from the Minister on the implementation of the changeover. The public experienced decimalisation in 1971 and the break with sterling in 1979, and more than in any other EU member state they are better equipped to deal with what is involved.

I support this positive and progressive Bill. It is important that successive Governments have taken appropriate measures to ensure that we have become part of the wider Europe. We should be careful not to be side-tracked by non-debates about what happened in 1971. I recall at that time teaching in the classroom the changeover to decimalisation. Stories about people being ripped off do not stand up to scrutiny. Every newspaper journalist who is too lazy to undertake research produces them. That did not happen to a significant extent.

On issues like this it is time we stopped enabling people. If they are foolish enough not to check prices at the time of the changeover to the euro they should be told caveat emptor, buyer beware. Every retailer is required to produce a price list indicating comparative prices. However, Irish consumers are not as price conscious as politicians seem to think. On any 20 mile stretch of roadway today there are huge variations in fuel prices, as much as 10p per litre. If consumers were as conscious about prices as politicians are prepared to believe, those selling fuel at more expensive prices would not be in business. It must be recognised that consumers will have loyalties to retail outlets in which they can trust and have confidence, which is much more important than pointing out variations in prices of 1p or 2p. Consumers must be careful, the consumer interest must be properly represented and we must ensure the changeover to the euro is positive and progressive.

There was a debate on the Order of Business about whether people made the right or wrong decision in the recent Nice treaty referendum. It does not matter if they were right or wrong. They made a decision which must be respected but because they took a decision does not mean they were right or wrong. It was democracy at work and we as legislators and political representatives must respect it.

As the leader of political life the Taoiseach must, by virtue of his office rather than his personal decision, take responsibility for the outcome. However, all parties to the debate must acknowledge that not enough was done. The issue has not gone away because the impact of our decision is to stop the enlargement planned for the EU. It does not matter whether people intended that to be the outcome or whether they are for or against enlargement. The decision returns the EU to the context of the Amsterdam treaty, which restricts enlargement to not more than five or six new member states.

It is fair to say that because we have gained so much from the EU does not mean we should submerge our sovereignty in the wider interests of Europe. However, the problem with last week's decision is that we did not approach it properly. As I understand democracy, the people elect a leadership through democratic participation, which implements proposals, some of which must be returned to the people but with the support and advice of the leadership. That is why I have always believed the McKenna judgment to be contrary to the spirit of the Constitution and democracy. It was ultra democratic, above the level of democracy. It does not fit. Nevertheless, given that it was a decision of the Supreme Court we need to look at how we do our business on that basis in the future.

The euro has been threatened by the decision of last week's referendum. The Leas-Chathaoirleach is indicating that I may be straying from the debate.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Slightly.

I thought so. However, in this sense, one will have noticed that the market makers in the money markets of the world have reacted disastrously against the euro. They have recognised the Irish decision as more problems regarding the euro zone, macro-European policy and an enlarged market. They are now marking down the euro in the same week that sterling hit its lowest point in years against the dollar. Market makers globally have accepted that sterling will be part of the euro within three or four years at the outside and they are beginning to discount sterling by reference to the level at which it will join the euro.

To ensure that the euro is protected and there is a changeover to a strong currency, it is important to revisit the decision made last week. This means there should be a "Yes" campaign that is both structured and strategic. It should be based on the way forward and involve the identification of issues and responses to them. It should involve the preparation of arguments on each issue which should be presented. There should be engagement with the issues and the electorate and this should be organised and supported. Chiefs and not only Indians should be involved because what happened last week in terms of our future in the euro zone and our role in protecting the euro was a disaster.

In terms of the leadership shown by different groups – I include my role in the trade union movement – we did not reach the grass roots and make it happen. There was only one organised campaign which was against the Nice treaty. On the other side, there was a huge amalgam of disparate groups which held another point of view. There was no co-ordination or focus. This is why the euro is worth less this week.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I would prefer the Senator to look forward to the euro rather than back to last week.

People undermined the campaign and it is unacceptable that a Minister of State sought to undermine the public position on the issue, which must be revisited.

In transferring to the euro we must ensure that it is a strong currency. To do this, we must ensure that it is seen as the largest market in the globe. An increased market must be shown to be part of the attraction for Ireland. It is clear that our economic future will depend on the export of intellectual add-on capacity to electronic services and materials in one form or another. This is the reality and there is no point talking in a vacuum about changing over to the euro if we do not also ensure there is a strong foundation for a strong currency in which people can have trust and confidence. This will be built on revisiting the decision made last week and ensuring it is changed on the next occasion. That decision should be in the best interests of our future as a nation in Europe and the future of the European currency.

There should be a detailed discussion on the McKenna judgment. I do not want the Referendum Commission to issue a series of boring advertisements next week stating in the context of the arguments for and against the euro what it is worth, but also stating that some people say it should be worth less. I do not want it to again succeed in confusing people because confusion is the enemy of progress. That is what happened last week. People did not understand the Nice treaty and the same problem could arise in relation to the changeover to the euro. The importance of this legislation—

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Is the Senator referring to confusion about notes and coins?

I am referring to the euro changeover amounts. If one did not read the Bill carefully, one might get the impression that IR£1 was the same as 1.25. That is not contained in the legislation, but it states that one is being replaced by the other. If people did not understand that it rounds off sums to the most reasonable amount, confusion might be created. It is an example of why the matter needs to be clarified for people. This is the reason there should be engagement with the electorate in ensuring that they understand what is happening. It is also the reason the Bill is important. This issue should be addressed as quickly as possible and I commend the Bill to the House. I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach for his tolerance in allowing me to engage in a more wide-ranging debate.

It is difficult to believe that it is three years since the House discussed Ireland's entry to the euro zone. At that time, we thought we would never reach the deadline of 1 January 2002, but it is almost upon us. Senator O'Toole may have confused the public more than enlightened them while Senator Doyle was very harsh on the public. My belief is that the public will take to the new currency with great ease. When people go on holidays and change money into different currencies they do not have much difficulty. Most people convert the local currency to IR£. I have every confidence that the public will take to the euro.

Not everybody has the opportunity to go on holiday and change money. I was referring to the many people who just draw their old age pensions.

I only gave an example; I did not refer to everybody going on holidays. However, small traders may have some difficulties and I will refer to that aspect later.

The euro will become the ordinary currency from 1 January 2002 and the Bill replaces, where necessary, IR£ amounts set down in law with convenient or rounded euro amounts – down in the case of charges and fees and up in the case of threshold amounts. The amounts relate to certain fees and charges levied by Government Departments and bodies. The purpose of the Bill is to adjust to easily remembered euro amounts from IR£ values that exist at present where the amounts will be rounded up or down. The set amounts will make it more convenient for ordinary punters because some people may find it difficult to convert the exact amount of 0.787564 and 1.25 in relation to the IR£.

Easily remembered amounts in the euro are needed in certain cases, especially for cash transactions. The Bill only deals with cases where a convenient euro amount has been deemed necessary. It does not deal with money amounts for tax or social welfare or road tax. The Finance Act and the Social Welfare Acts have already provided for this in the taxation and social welfare codes. Recent Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs' payment booklets show the designated euro amounts that will apply from 1 January.

The Bill provides for an amendment to the Economic and Monetary Act, 1998, the Credit Union Act, 1997, and the Heritage Act, 1995. Section 4 of the Bill refers to the 11 countries that originally joined the euro zone on 1 January 1999 and the entry of Greece from 1 January 2001. However, there is no mention of Britain. Following the general election there last week, it may not be too long before it joins the euro. In Britain there appears to be a move away from the Conservative and Thatcherite days of being against Europe towards a situation where new Labour is more involved in Europe. It may be some time before sterling becomes part of the euro zone because the British always liked to hold on to everything they owned.

There could be difficulties for Irish exporters, particularly should sterling drop in relation to the dollar. Many Irish exporters, even with the onset of the euro changeover, still export in the currencies of their markets and sterling is still an important factor for them. The high rate of sterling was of great benefit to exporters but in the future changes may make life more difficult.

I wonder if some aspect of the "No" vote in the Nice treaty referendum was a rejection of the idea of the euro. I heard comments last week that surprised me. West Donegal relies entirely on the fishing industry and while there will be a review of the Common Fisheries Policy, I was surprised to hear people talking about voting "No" because of how the fishing industry has been treated by Europe.

The euro notes and coins will be introduced on 1 January 2002 and there will be a six-week dual currency period during which it is envisaged that the euro will be used more than the Irish pound. This period will last until Saturday, 9 February 2002, after which the pound will no longer be legal tender. It has been suggested that this is a long enough time to familiarise the public with the new currency and short enough to ensure that the changeover happens quickly and smoothly. I have a fear that in those first six weeks the banking system may not be able to cope with the amount of euro tender needed. I am confident this issue will be addressed but it is very important to ensure that the proper supply of currency is available.

Public information has been provided but apart from the public sector and some of the larger firms, the consumer has not yet realised what will happen. I am an accountant dealing with small businesses and I find that there is very little talk or planning for the changeover in the small firms sector. I am aware of only one firm which has been producing its accounts in euro for the past two years. All the others seem to be putting off the evil day. Most small businesses get excited when they look at their bank statements and mistake the euro amount for Irish pounds. There will be great difficulties with many small businesses. Pricing on cash tills and petrol price readings at small garages may not be ready for the changeover. There may be difficulties for the consumer. I remember that in the case of the changeover to decimalisation, consumers were done by unscrupulous shopkeepers – I do not mean by big supermarkets like Senator Quinn's shops, but the small rural corner shop.

It has been mentioned that 150,000 copies of euro changeover guidelines were issued to retailers by Forfás, but I believe that many of these are still sitting on shelves, like many of the reports we receive which lie in offices and are not read. We have six months to prepare and small retailers and businesses should take the time to prepare for this changeover.

I see a number of advantages in the changeover to the euro. I know that Senator Joe Doyle does not go on foreign holidays but he probably has taken trips with Oireachtas committees. Three years ago we all believed that there would be an end to the banks' exploitation of currency exchange transactions and now we find that it has got worse instead of better. I hope from 1 January the banks will no longer be able to exploit us because we will be able to use euro currency both at home and abroad.

The Minister for Finance has changed the financial year to bring it into line with the calendar year. This may cause difficulties for firms which do not close their accounts on 31 December because in the first year six or seven months' accounts will be shown in Irish pounds and the other five months in euro. I believe that we will become accustomed to the euro just as we did with decimalisation. The most important point is that there should be no exploitation and that the changeover is fair to all. When the Minister for Finance reduced the VAT rate by 1%, I wonder how much of that 1% filtered through to the customer. It did not always happen in smaller and some larger businesses. I believe that the customer suffered. Unscrupulous traders will treat customers unfairly and we do not need mere lip service from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment as regards control and regulation – we will want action.

I welcome the Minister to the House and I welcome the Bill. The Minister will be pleased to know that I am a fan of the euro but I am also a fan of the metric system and I am concerned about what Senator Joe Doyle said about there being perhaps too short a changeover period. I have converted to metric and it has made me much taller. The Minister will be pleased to know that I am now 166 centimetres tall – I used to be much smaller in the old days – and I am now also lighter in weight. The Minister is a golfing man and he will understand that when I had a five metre putt the other day I felt everyone should know that it was a 16 foot putt.

I am enthusiastic for the speedy changeover to the euro and I do not favour a prolonged timescale. I do not think we are ready. I ask the Minister if the FÁS training packs are yet available to employees. I do not believe they are – if they are, I have not yet seen them. I have been using euro cheque books for the past two years and when I sent a £10 cheque to my daughter in Paris, she was charged £10 by the bank for the transfer of the euro cheque. I am not sure if this happens in the reverse situation because my daughter never sends me £10, but she was charged when I sent her the cheque. I think £10 might be an acceptable charge for a higher amount of money but certainly not for such a small amount.

I wonder if we are aware of the huge costs which will be incurred by retailers. The banks will have to distribute the currency ahead of the changeover day but how will retailers safely store the money? My company officials have been informed by the banks that the currency will be delivered months in advance and this will create security problems. EuroCommerce is a Brussels-based representative group for retailers. In a standard letter to members it notes that businesses generally get much of the small change from over the counter payments. If bakers, taxi drivers, railway ticket offices or supermarkets must give change only in euro and their customers are paying in national currency units, they will need to have up to 20 times as much cash as normal in the till. In these circumstances, there will be a much greater risk of robberies. These difficulties will be exacerbated if there are not enough five and ten euro notes in circulation.

The whole question of front-loading the public is very important. This will be much more important for the small shops than for the big shops. Most customers coming into a large supermarket spend, say, £40 or £50. If they give in a £50 note or a 50 note the change will be comparatively small. If most people going into a small shop in those first few days and first few hours of 1 January next to buy a newspaper or a bar of chocolate have only a large unit of currency, either of traditional Irish money or the euro, the change could be gone from those small shops by 11 a.m. That is my concern. Are we sure we are able to cover that problem? To do that it will be necessary to have front-loading.

Front-loading means we will have to get money into the hands of the public ahead of 1 January. Let me take the example of going to Spain – I know Senator Doyle never goes to Spain on holidays – and let us think of Spain as euroland on 1 January. A week or so ahead of time one goes to the bank for currency and one has it ready to use on arrival in Spain. I want the public to be able to say they can get money ahead of time when going to euroland on 1 January and that they will have the currency for that country on their arrival. The Minister has taken a step in that direction. He is giving a £5 pack to be distributed by post offices from 17 December. Page 2 of the EuroCommerce document suggests that consumers arm themselves with the average amount of cash they currently spend per week. In Belgian francs that is about £40. A sum of £5 from the post office in a pack is not nearly enough. The Minister should endeavour to get more of new euro money into the hands of the public before 1 January. I know there are difficulties, one of which is the actual date of change, but we have lost that particular one. We have to find a way to get euro money into the hands of the public before 1 January, otherwise the system might begin to break down by 11 a.m. I urge the Minister to find a way to front-load not only the coins but the notes.

In regard to the other recommendation, the EuroCommerce document insists that ATMs are converted to euro notes overnight on 31 December 2000, that refill capacity will exist on 1 January 2002 and that non-converted ATMs do not distribute national currency. We must ensure that happens. The document recommends that 5 and 10 notes are initially available through ATM and encourages consumers to exchange the national currency for euros before going to the shops in early 2002. It recommends that one stops distributing large denominational national currency notes in late 2001 and encourages banks in every country to open a significant number of their branches on 1 January 2002. I realise that not all of that is in the hands of the Minister and that all he can do in some cases is encourage the banks. We have to take such steps to ensure it survives. Unless we grab hold of the opportunities we could have a huge problem. I cannot envisage a situation where people will pay in both currencies. They have to pay and get the change in one currency. As soon as the new currency is in their hands the changeover period will be as short as possible.

I welcome the Bill which is part of the essential housekeeping necessary in the changeover to the euro. I am sure I am not alone in wishing that the rest of the changeover process will be as simple. Regrettably, that is not the case. At this stage we are forced into the position of hoping things will go right on the night. It is a measure of the recent decline of Irish influence across the EU that our European partners did not choose to learn from the unique experience that Ireland has in making such a currency changeover, as Senator Finneran said. When Ireland went decimal in the 1970s we took great care in choosing the date. We did not win that one. If I remember correctly the date was 15 February 1971. We chose a date that was not in the middle of the Christmas rush or the sales and for that reason we lost out. I cannot help thinking that perhaps there was a lack of zeal by the Government in putting forward Ireland's experience as a guide.

From the beginning of the euro process I have got the impression that the Government has chosen to take orders from the European Central Bank rather than to seek to influence the policy that it adopted. It is true that some changes for the better have been made. I congratulate the Minister on the first tentative steps he has made in regard to front-loading, but we will have to go much further if we are to succeed.

In the beginning everyone was talking about a period of six months for the changeover but it is now down to six weeks. I welcome that. I forecast that most of the conversion to the new currency will take place during the first ten days of 2002, with little more than minor mopping up taking place until 9 February. It is only when one thinks of a massive conversion taking place in such a short time that one begins to get the feel of the logistical difficulties involved. The logistics of actually getting the new currency where it is needed is where the problems will arise. I have already mentioned the difficulty of the cash in transit companies. Given that there are not enough of them it will take much longer. I see no difficulty in people getting to know the new currency and becoming comfortable with it. Once the euro is a reality in their pockets they will readily adapt to it, just as most of us have adapted to the metric system. They will rapidly become sensitive to the new price points that will emerge in the new economy. I must admit I was confused when I read the changeover in the Bill today. I understand it makes sense not to convert exactly to the same amount. The danger of people being confused is high and so they will be at risk from profiteering. This is being grossly overstated.

There are two points I wish to make on the question of prices and the changeover. I warn the Government against making changes in VAT rates that would coincide with the changeover. If there are to be VAT changes in the new budget, their implementation date should be deferred until the changeover has taken place and things have settled down. Were there to be a general increase in VAT that coincided with the changeover this would cause a great deal of confusion among the public and the two charges would get mixed up in the public's mind. Inevitably, as Senators Finneran and Bonner have said, the cost of the changeover process will have to be passed on to the public in some way. All retailers will have a huge increase in costs whether it is insurance to mind the extra cash or whatever. Let us see how they will handle it.

As we get nearer to E day and the sheer logistics become clearer with every passing week, it is obvious that businesses in the money-handling chain will have considerable once-off expenses arising from that changeover. For example, consider the vital necessity of having enough euro notes and coins at every retail outlet from the morning of the first day. That is vital if the system is not to break down at the start. These notes and coins will have to be got from the Central Bank which produces them and they will have to be got to the retail banks and then to the individual retail outlets. That cannot be done overnight, especially over the Christmas-new year period. That means that these outlets will have to be front-loaded with euro currency. Retail outlets which in the ordinary way work hard to get rid of any cash they hold as soon as possible will have to hold large amounts of euro currency for what could be a period of weeks. That will create a totally new security aspect which will cost a great deal of money. Given the narrow profit margins on which large retailers and many others work, it is inevitable that that extra cost will be passed on to the public in some form.

While we are right not to expect prices to be increased due to the conversion from pounds to euro – customers must be vigilant against any such increases – at the same time we have to be realistic. If we are realistic we must admit that the changeover process has a once-off cost and that this cost is likely to be paid for by somebody.

I welcome the Bill. I have touched on a number of what might seem minor points but they are important. I know the Minister is anxious to make sure that the changeover from 1 January until 9 February takes place but to do so we must get currency into the hands of the public before they enter euroland on 1 January. We have to find a way to get coins and smaller notes in particular. A £5 pack in the post offices is not going to be nearly enough; we need to do much more. Let us make sure that steps are taken to give the public whatever it requires ahead of time and let us make sure that the banks and others are available to do that in the few days coming up to the euro changeover. I welcome the Bill; I welcome the Minister's views and his explanation today.

I am glad to have the opportunity to say a few words about the euro changeover. We have faced many challenges in recent years, most importantly the Y2K issue. Without the careful planning that went into the management of that project, we would not have had a successful rollover on 1 January 2000. This changeover probably presents us with even greater challenges because it affects every individual here and careful planning is vital.

Understanding the issue is essential and the hardest thing to do is to take time out to manage the transition from the punt to the euro. It has not dawned on people, including me, what we will be facing on 1 January. I find it hard to believe that we will be looking at what might be called foreign money. It will take some time to get used to the idea of the euro. I was quite young when decimalisation occurred and I do not remember pounds, shillings and pence. However years later I still hear people talking about working for ten bob a week. I remember the changeover to metric and even though I was taught in kilogrammes and grammes, I still refer to pounds and ounces. We are slow to change in our minds, but the speed of this change will focus our minds all the more. I have no doubt we will successfully change over despite a few headaches in the meantime.

On 1 January the euro coins and notes will come into effect and the Irish pound coins and notes will be withdrawn. By midnight on 9 February this change will be complete. Some people I have spoken to think that the transition is very quick and it is not giving people enough time to adjust. However, regardless of how long people are given, it is only when they are handling the notes that they learn how to deal with them.

A recent survey showed 77% of the general public is aware of the euro changeover, which is much more than other changeovers. However, I am concerned about the depth of that knowledge. I do not mean that in a patronising way. At a superficial level, we all know that the notes and coins will be changed but we have not realised the effect it will have on our daily lives. The general perception is that the changeover will mainly affect retail businesses, manufacturing and service industries. The big challenge for most people will be in the everyday aspects of living such as doing the shopping, eating out, paying bills, etc. Over the next six months we have plenty of time but we need a concentrated effort to raise public awareness and to deal with the changeover. People are travelling much more now than when decimalisation occurred and are more used to changing currencies, but this change will affect them at home.

When I look at my bank statement and see how much I have, I think that it is great until I realise that I am looking at the euro figure rather than the punts one. Over the next few months, we need to make the adjustment from punts to euro in our own heads. For businesses, the challenges are greater including the processing of payments to suppliers, salaries and wages to employees, charging customers, etc. The most important aspect for businesses will be in the training of staff not only in their dealing with other businesses but more importantly with the general public. We will have a few rocky months during the transition from the punt to the euro, but good staff training can help make it smoother.

I welcome the fact that training packs will be available for people with disabilities and the elderly. It is important that these are available for the visually impaired and people who are deaf or hard of hearing as well as the intellectually disabled. The European Commission will be introducing numerous training tools including dummy bank notes to help in the recognition of the euro and they need to be made widely available to all sectors of the community that require it.

I welcome the fact that the European Commission is producing training tools including brochures and games under the euro made easy programme, which was developed by citizens for citizens using everyday language. As in other areas, children can teach us much and the education of children at an early stage will be vital in changing all of us. There is much information available to teachers which they will pass on to their pupils including quizzes, primary school work sheets, guidelines for teachers, etc., and I am sure these will be extremely effective.

Some of my constituents are fearful that individuals in business will use the cost of the changeover as an excuse to place a levy on the general public by increasing prices. It will be difficult for everyone, but we have to be careful that people do not use the opportunity to simply increase their own profits.

On a lighter note, we all have jars of coins that we have built up over the years and it is important that we get value for money over the coming months and get rid of them so that we do not have to go to the banks on the deadline to have them changed. There are older people who still keep a few pounds under the mattress and expect that their nest egg will be safe, secure and worth money whenever they need it, but that may not be the case. During the awareness campaign for the public, we need to emphasise that the money, hoarded under beds and in coffee jars, should be brought to the banks and changed so that people get their value for it in plenty of time. While there is a responsibility on Government to make sure that people are made well aware of it, everybody must take responsibility for themselves over the coming months. Public awareness is the most important key, but each individual must take responsibility for his or her own aspect of the changeover and must ensure that they are adequately informed in good time. I welcome this Bill and I appreciate the opportunity to speak on it.

About one year ago, almost to the day, we had a debate in this House on the euro. It was a less detailed and less technical debate than this one. We were assured then that although the euro was very low, all would be well as it was rallying on the markets, oil prices were falling, inflation in Ireland had peaked and we would never see such lows again. One year later, the euro, having rallied a little, is back near the bottom at an all-time low. I wonder why that is so. Those who have apologised for the euro since it came into existence have been wrong in virtually every statement they made. Their most fundamental error was in joining the euro in the first place. We are talking about a failed project. I remember very clearly – the Minister was not guilty of this – Government and Opposition spokesmen declaring that the euro would be a strong currency which would rival the dollar and sterling. It was a failure.

One of the weakest excuses I heard in this House was from a Minister of State who, in apologising for the euro, said that it would be okay when people got the coins and notes in their hands. Apparently, when that happens, the euro is set to rise. Of course that is nonsense. Having the coins in our hands will make no difference. It will give the euro a certain degree of credibility, but probably less than was imagined by the Minister of State who made that statement in this House. The euro will buy much less in the shops when it comes into circulation at the end of this year than it would have done originally.

I oppose this Bill without pressing it to a vote because it is part of the European process which I dislike and which has gone too far. We have to ask what are the reasons for this situation and whether it benefits Ireland to be in the euro. It does not. We simply got the euro wrong and we have had, perhaps, two years of it. It was meant to be a strong currency which would curb inflation. It has been a weak currency which has fuelled inflation. Low interest rates, as a result of the euro, have fuelled the housing boom, which in turn has fuelled inflation. We prayed for oil prices to fall and our prayers were met for a very short time, but prices are now going up again. The reality is that we are now voluntary prisoners of the euro and there is absolutely nothing we can do about it. We are now suffering possibly the worst of all worlds. Of course, we have gained exports, but we do not really need that kind of fuel on the fire at present. This Bill is simply more of the same project.

I wish to make a few comments on this Bill and on the European process. In the context of the Nice treaty, Senator O'Toole mentioned the need to protect the euro. Many of us who voted against that treaty last week did so for very good reasons, one of which was the euro. I believe this European project has gone much too far and is no longer in the interests of Ireland. That is not to say that one does not wish to be a member of the European Union – far from it – but the way we are approaching this Bill today, with exactly the same unanimous, gregarious, sheep-like support which we offered last week to the Nice treaty, shows how incredibly far we are out of touch with the wishes of the people.

It is extraordinary, as was said on the Order of Business, that virtually every powerful pressure group in the country was against that referendum last week, yet the Houses of the Oireachtas are almost unanimously in favour of it. How on earth can that happen? Does it mean, as I suggest, that there are people in these Houses who do not believe in it for one moment, but are voting it through because we are now subject to pressures from Europe which we cannot and do not wish to resist? I heard a commentator say on an RTÉ radio programme this week – of course no commentator has a monopoly on the truth – that, in his opinion, if a referendum on the Nice treaty was held in France and Germany, the people of those countries would vote against it. In Germany, that was attributed to the loss of the mark and consequent inflationary expectations, based on good historical reasons. If that is the case, why on earth are we continuing to promote that particular project today? Is it because politicians like swanning around Europe, with its attendant power, prestige and photo opportunities? They have been swallowed into the system and they neglect the wishes of their constituents.

I do not think the Minister, Deputy McCreevy, is guilty of that. One of my reasons for voting against the Nice treaty – I do not wish to embarrass the Minister – was the appalling way he was treated when he was running the economy on the best possible lines. I do not see why this country should put up with that sort of interfering arrogance from countries which do not know how to run their own affairs properly, while we are running the most prosperous and successful economy, courtesy of the Minister. That undeserved and unwarranted reprimand was humiliating to a country which is doing extremely well without, and despite, Europe. That was one of my reasons and I do not wish to say anything else to embarrass the Minister.

In the context of the euro and this Bill, we are not just attaching ourselves to a weak currency, we are attaching ourselves to weak economies. In some extraordinary way, Europe has managed to be inflationary and, at the same time, to stagnate. That is quite an achievement. Bad inflation figures came through from Germany today. At the same time the German economy is sluggish. The European economy is in a state of stagflation. Whatever gloss one puts on it, the European economy is languishing at the same time as the currency is languishing. That is difficult to achieve. Usually, when currencies are weak, the economies are export led in terms of a boom, but not this one, for whatever reason.

Ireland, perhaps for reasons to do with brainwashing rather than commercial reality, has attached itself to this Berlin type mentality. I say straightforwardly and clearly that, in the economic battle and in terms of allegiance as between Boston and Berlin, some of us unapologetically say that we believe in Boston. Commercial reality demands that. We feel closer to the commercial and financial world of Boston than to the economic structure and model of Berlin and Brussels. Time and again, the American economy outperforms the European. This Bill is part of the process which the people rejected decisively last week yet we go ahead without question. I oppose this Bill.

There have been good points about the euro. It sank but it brings those countries in euroland closer together because one cannot afford to go anywhere else.

They can sink together.

They are nice countries to go to. Saying that one cannot afford to go is a good excuse for not visiting America or Britain. Senator Quinn mentioned earlier, and I welcome it, that the period for the changeover is shorter. However, more money in small notes and coins must be released coming up to Christmas and into the new year, otherwise old money will circulate for longer. That should be easy to do. Is it not possible to introduce more euros for the retail trade in the last two weeks of the year? The £5 packs available in post offices would barely pay the parking for a day's shopping.

I thank the Senators for their contributions which covered the debate over the euro project and the European economy and the practicalities of this Bill. Senator Doyle and others referred to euro notes and coins. Pictures of them are widely available and will be in the booklet being sent to every home in the autumn and they will be publicised in other ways. He also raised a question about the Central Bank. It will continue to give value indefinitely for Irish notes and coins. If the Senator has a stock of them in three or four years' time, the bank will give him the value. Perhaps in ten years or less, a Minister may bring this to a conclusion.

Senators Finneran and Doyle referred to the length of the changeover period. All states are committed to a changeover period of two months or less. When we introduced the Central Bank Bill there was a six month period. I stated then that we would avail of the shortest time. We are almost the shortest. Our period strikes a fair balance between giving people time to adapt to the new money and getting the changeover done quickly.

Senator Doyle is concerned at the preparedness and general awareness of the changeover among businesses and the public. Companies must accelerate their preparations. Public information will be intensified in the run up to January. I urge those businesses, who have not done so, to avail of the information and services available. They should start their preparations now. The larger retail organisations are applying their minds to it, as evidenced by Senator Quinn's contribution. He mentioned some of the difficulties and I will return to these. Smaller operations have not spent much time on it.

We have measures planned for the autumn to inform the public. At the end of August, the European Central Bank will unveil the bank notes' security features. The national central banks will begin advertising campaigns on what the new currency looks like. Also in the autumn, the Euro Changeover Board will increase its advertising and circulate a booklet to every household. On 1 October, dual pricing, already visible at outlets, will increase considerably. From Monday, 17 December, starter packs of 6.35 in coins, costing £5 each, will go on sale mainly in post offices. On 1 January 2002, euro notes and coins will be circulated.

Senators referred to consumer and pricing issues. The consumer aspect of the changeover is addressed by the Minister of State with responsibility for consumer affairs and the Director of Consumer Affairs. They relaunched last December the national code of practice on the changeover and an action plan for consumer protection. The code's key aspect is that subscribers commit themselves to carrying out the changeover fairly and do not seek an advantage from the conversion. The director sent the code to over 200 organisations with a sample letter for issue to their members and a form of undertaking inviting them to subscribe to it or draw up a suitable sectoral code for approval under the national code. Any such code must still contain the commitment to carry out the changeover fairly. The director's office has applications from 100 potential individual subscribers.

The national code is signed by ten trade associations – the Irish Sports Association, the Retail Jewellers of Ireland, the Institute of Leisure and Amenity Management (Ireland) Limited, the Association of Optometrists (Ireland), the Association of the Irish Dental Industry Limited, the National Federation of Retail Newsagents, the Institute of Professional Auctioneers and Valuers, the Institute of Certified Public Accountants of Ireland, the Car Rental Council of Ireland and the Association of Building Engineers. Sectoral codes approved by the director came from IBEC, the Irish Petroleum Industry Association and the Irish branch of the Booksellers' Association of Great Britain and Ireland. Further sectoral codes are being examined by the Director of Consumer Affairs. Retailers signed up to a code are entitled to display the euro logo to demonstrate this. The director advises consumers to shop where they see the logo. Consumers can feel confident that they will not be overcharged for goods or services where it is displayed.

Before the euro comes in, customers will have had ample opportunity to inform themselves of the changeover and build up a scale of values in that currency. They can contact the office of consumer affairs with queries or complaints. The Minister and the Director of Consumers Affairs will monitor developments to determine if further initiatives are required. Retailers and their organisations are anxious to demonstrate that they will conduct the changeover fairly. Competition and market forces should deter attempts to cheat. The director will withdraw the logo from any retailer abusing the changeover, which will help consumers. Senator O'Toole is correct in saying that consumers should pay attention to prices and take their custom elsewhere if they believe they are not being treated fairly.

Senator Finneran raised other issues. People doing cross-Border business are used to dealing in a euro currency, the Irish pound, and sterling. They should be able to get used to dealing in the euro and sterling quickly. Senator Bonner made points with which I agree. Forfás is distributing 200,000 copies of a guide for small and medium enterprises. I have not yet checked in my own small to medium sized accountancy practice, but if I did it would produce similar results to the Senator's survey. Not many have taken all the steps.

Senator Quinn made a number of interesting points based on his experience in business. It is correct to state that the difficulty was when this date should be. For two reasons the most unsuitable date from an Irish viewpoint is 1 January. First, we have developed a uniquely Irish way of celebrating Christmas. No country in Europe, or anywhere in the world, has as long a celebration of Christmas. When I was growing up, we celebrated Christmas very well over a few days, but now people celebrate Christmas for the best part of two and a half weeks. The rest of Europe and the world might take example from us in this regard. It is the break-off period and we celebrate it for a long time, whereas the rest of Europe seems to have more public holidays and longer weekends than we do and I think that is more disruptive to business. The French have a great system and start a lot of holidays on a Thursday or Friday which stretch out to the following Tues day. We make a big event of Christmas and work very hard the rest of the year until our summer holidays. That is why it is an unsuitable period for us.

Second, we have a tradition of sales, as do many other countries. An enormous amount of cash is in circulation in that period and an enormous amount of selling goes on at Christmas and in its aftermath. I accept that 1 January is not a suitable date for us.

Various dates were proposed over a number a years. The date of 1 October was suggested, as was later in the year. It is not as simple having the euro notes and coins – many other considerations had to be taken into account. We had to set the timetable some years ago. This is the third year of the euro and 31 December is the most obvious date for most countries, but it has some practical difficulties.

I remember quite well the decimalisation changeover on 15 February 1971, and I think Senator Bonner would recall it too. I was not long an articled clerk in an accountancy practice. A bank strike started in or around the end of June 1970 which went on for months. I think the bank officials went back to work in early January but did not open their doors for a long time. Some time in March, one got a whole lot of bank statements and there was only one date on which they were all put through. One then had this changeover as well. I knew very little about accounting at that stage and was totally confused about the bank statements. I had only been in the practice for a few months as a trainee accountant. I remember 15 February made things even worse. I have reason to remember 15 February 1971.

Senator Quinn and others raised the question of starter packs. There has been a debate at ECOFIN and with the ECB about notes and coins being put into circulation. We eventually went along with putting starter packs of coins in circulation. Every Minister at ECOFIN said that no notes and coins should be put into circulation before 1 January 2002 in any country. Of course, pressure built up in some countries and one by one they all said we would have to have starter packs of coins. We have gone along with that and people can buy them. I think there might be one country which will not have starter packs of coins.

The Minister representing one country has raised the question of whether we should have the notes. Let us think about it for a while. If one picks a date some time December to give out notes, they will not have legal tender status until 1 January 2002. That applies no matter what date one chooses. My view for what it is worth – I am not claiming it is the correct one – is that it is better to have the big bang approach and say that no notes will be in circulation before 31 December because I think there would be too much confusion.

In terms of the logistics in an operation such as the organisation of which Senator Quinn is chair man and chief executive, I do not underestimate the difficulties. The Central Bank and the Euro Changeover Board have spent a lot of time trying to plan the logistics of all this. The Central Bank has been planning it with the banks, which have been planning it with their customers. One thinks of getting the money out, but it will be as big an operation to get the money back in. In the early days of January, there will be millions of notes and coins that will have to be taken from the centres and brought somewhere. This will be a major operation which I do not underestimate, and there are some costs. We have worked out agreement between the Central Bank and the retail banks about the debiting of customers and that, I think, is reasonably satisfactory. There will be other costs which will have to be borne by the particular industries.

The European Central Bank which has the authority in this matter regarding notes has already ruled that euro notes should not be made available to the public in advance of 1 January 2002. That was repeated recently at ECOFIN and I support that position. More recently, the ECB president, Wim Duisenberg, strongly reiterated the ECB position. The key to a speedy changeover as regards notes is to convert all, or most, ATMs to the euro on the first day and to make sure that they mainly issue low value euro notes – fives and tens – and to frontload retailers with low value euro notes. That is what is intended. We are doing these things in Ireland. About 80% of the ATMs will be converted to the euro on 1 January 2002 and, initially, they will probably issue ten and 20 euro notes. Initially, retailers will be frontloaded with low value euro notes.

Social welfare payments will be in euro from 1 January 2002. The bulk of these are still paid in cash at post offices and in the first week of the changeover they will generally contain at least four five euro notes. Banks, building societies and post offices will exchange Irish cash for euro and, where feasible, credit unions will do the same for their members.

From the start of the changeover, there will be a strong flow of low value euro notes in the hands of the public. It is very unlikely that people will bring large notes into shops on 1 January 2002 and that they will buy a less value item. Senator Quinn has more retail experience than I but I do not think people will turn up at their corner shop with a 50 note looking for a packet of cigarettes. If they do, we will have the problem to which the Senator refers. I do not think that will happen. The Government and shopkeepers will ask people to try to give exact change or close to it, especially in the early days of January.

Much as I would like to engage in debate with Senator Ross regarding the euro and last week, I will do something unusual and refrain from so doing. Over the past couple of years, I would have given vent to some expressions about Europe and Europeanisation. There is a lot of validity in some of the things he has said. However, I will confine my remarks to the euro and to its success or otherwise. For many years in Opposition and before I was Minister for Finance, I said that people should not give the markets anything at which to pitch, that they should be very responsible and should not say anything because the currency marketeers like to speculate. I have my own views on why the euro has gone in a particular direction and the dollar has gone in another, but I will keep them to myself because I am sure if I said too much it would be on the Reuters screens in ten minutes and that would cause another furore on the markets.

This is a major undertaking. The enormity of what will take place on 1 January 2002 is only beginning to dawn on people. Next Easter, for example, Senator Bonner, instead of going for a rest to Cheltenham, may head off to Spain or Portugal for a few days. One weekend he will be in Letterkenny looking at the price of shirts and a pint of beer and the following weekend he will be in Spain looking at the same items. He will be able to compare prices in euros. I think that will have an effect on the value of the euro vis-à-vis other currencies. I will not say anything more than that. That has been my contention for some time. The fact that people will have it in their pocket will have an effect. People are only coming to terms with the fact that 12 European countries will have the same currency. I thank Senators for their contributions.

Question put and agreed to.

When is it proposed to take Committee Stage?

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