Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 7 Nov 2001

Vol. 168 No. 10

National Drugs Strategy: Motion.

Mr. Moylan

I move:

That Seanad Éireann notes the progress made in implementing the national drugs strategy and welcomes, in particular, the proposed establishment of the regional drugs task forces to address the drug problem throughout the country.

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Eoin Ryan, to the House and compliment him on his work to date. When he announced this in my region, the midlands region, not so very long ago, there was great enthusiasm for what he had to say. Having read what he said that day and listened carefully to him, we look forward to the measures he is putting in place to do something about what is probably the biggest drugs problem facing people in Ireland.

The regional drugs task forces were just one key element of the new drugs strategy, 2001-2008, which was launched in May last. That strategy was about tackling the misuse of drugs in Ireland in the most comprehensive way to date. The new strategy marks a major departure by clearly assigning responsibilities and targets for Departments and State agencies. It also sets out specific objectives and key performance indicators regarding supply reduction, prevention, treatment and rehabilitation and research. There is now a plan in place. There are indicators and aims to which we must adhere. I am confident that under the Minister of State, who has taken charge in this area, those aims will be achieved on target.

For the first time ever, there is an integrated strategy covering the entire country. Departments, State agencies, front-line workers, local communities and politicians are working together. In the past the emphasis on the drug problem was mainly in Dublin and the bigger cities. As we are aware, there are such problems in all our towns and villages. The Minister of State was wise to take steps to develop the strategy on a regional basis and, in particular, to involve the health boards. That was an important development.

The Minister outlined the nature and extent of the drug problem at that time and stated that, as part of the review, the latest available data on the nature and extent of the drug problem in Ireland had been examined. It showed that the most commonly used drug was cannabis, followed by ecstasy. However, in terms of harm to individuals and to the community, heroin has the greatest impact. For many years people asked what was the real problem. The Minister of State has identified it. The treatment data and data from an important element of the Garda Síochána now indicate that heroin misuse continues to be a Dublin problem, but the problems which have arisen in Dublin have become major problems in a very short time in towns and villages right around the country.

The Minister of State's research also showed that heroin misuse occurred predominately among unemployed males under the age of 30 and over half of those presenting for treatment had already left school at the age of 16. That is a point which the Minister Department has highlighted and we must all take it on board. There are many organisations doing their best to ensure that young people, and particularly young males under 16, have alternative interests such as sport. Their involvement in sport will ensure that they steer clear of the scourge of drugs.

While one talks about the Irish scene, the Minister of State highlighted in his statement on that occasion that an international approach is also being taken. It is important that he take account of what is known about the problem in other countries. In some of those countries where they have tackled the problem, he can learn how that was done and how well they are doing. In that way he can see if we have taken their recommendations on board and whether they have had an impact on those problems.

The Minister of State said the focus must be on the drug misuser. He also referred to various enforcement measures and the use of certain agencies to cut off the supply of drugs. Drugs are being brought into the country through our ports. Our extensive coastline makes it quite easy to bring in drugs and from here they can be moved elsewhere.

In the past few days every Member of the Oireachtas received drugs in the post. I had not previously heard of the gentleman who sent them. Very soon after opening the post I had a telephone call from the local newspapers, who were aware of what was happening. I do not know if the person concerned contacted the media to say he had posted drugs to Oireachtas Members. I told the media that documents received by me which are unsigned or without a telephone number or address are binned.

Mr. Glennon

Did the Senator burn it?

Mr. Moylan

No, I did not burn it, but I said it could end up in a tip head.

I referred to how easy it is to get drugs into this country because of our extensive coastline. The Minister of State said that central to the current drugs policy has been the bringing together of key agencies in a planned and co-ordinated manner, which is very important. This allows for the development of a range of appropriate responses to tackle drug misuse. I am sure the local drugs task forces, which the Government will continue to fund, will build on the already considerable achievements. While the review recognised that much remains to be done, it is also recognised that the current approach provides a solid foundation on which to build over the next seven years. The new strategy endorses the existing approaches and will expand on the pillars and principles which underpin it. The Minister said that what was proposed was not just a short-term view but an action plan over seven years. That is how we should plan if we are to tackle the real problem of drugs.

Responsibility is clearly assigned to Departments and agencies in terms of supply reduction, prevention, treatment and research. For the unfortunate people caught up in the misuse of drugs, treatment is very important. There are people who foolishly became involved in a minor way in the misuse of drugs, which subsequently developed into a very serious problem. The Departments have a responsibility to ensure a proper treatment system is in place to help them get over the problem and return to mainstream living, and this can and will happen for many of those who have taken the wrong road.

One of the key recommendations of the strategy is that regional drugs task forces be set up throughout the country to develop appropriate policies for the regions. There is a problem in Dublin and the bigger cities, and it is important that we develop services in the regions so that when the problem presents itself we have in place treatment facilities and people trained to bring those involved in drugs back to mainstream living and out of the drug scene.

In terms of supply reduction the Minister said the number of gardaí to be deployed in local drugs task forces will be increased, which is very welcome. We must have more gardaí involved in this area and more co-operation between gardaí, health boards and others. Work will be done once a problem is highlighted through people going for treatment to GPs or health boards.

The Minister said he hopes to reduce the amount of drugs being taken by people over the period, and he has set targets in this regard. The national awareness campaign must be highlighted. I hope that when the Minister of State undertakes the very important task of highlighting that campaign, be it in local or national media, people will not say he is promoting himself for re-election. The national awareness campaign in relation to drugs is very important and I hope that what has been said about other Ministers promoting themselves over the past few days will not be said about the Minister of State in this regard. I ask the Opposition to take this on board.

Mr. E. Ryan

Hear, hear.

Mr. Glennon

Hear, hear.

Mr. Moylan

In terms of treatment, the number of methadone treatment places will increase to 6,000 by the end of 2001, a major and positive initiative.

I compliment the Minister on his work. He said that over 120 of the original local drugs task force projects have been mainstreamed and that the task forces are currently updating their plans for the next three years, which is welcome. It is very important that the plan has been set out and that progress is being made.

I appreciate my time is up, but I wanted to comment on the problems being faced by young people because of drugs. Recently the Joint Committee on Health and Children visited Mountjoy Prison and saw the numbers there because of drugs, who have robbed cars and homes to get money to buy drugs. If the Minister of State can put in place a proper action programme to reduce the consumption of drugs he will be doing a good job, not just for those affected by drugs but for many families who have suffered as a result of theft and other serious problems.

I thank the Minister of State for his work and wish him well in the future.

Mr. Glennon

I second the motion and welcome the Minister of State to the House. I had the pleasure recently of attending one of the information seminars held in the Dublin North region. I was very impressed by the extent of buy-in shown by all the agencies and the degree of enthusiasm among the staff involved in implementing the strategy. It certainly bodes well for the success of the strategy in the medium and long term.

One aspect which tends to be overlooked, particularly in light of the publicity stunt pulled earlier in the week in regard to a particular drug, is that of alcohol. All the emphasis appears to be on hard and soft drugs. I am interested to note that alcohol comes under the aegis of the strategy. I welcome that aspect as someone who represents an area which is currently having particular difficulty with alcohol as a drug rather than other drugs. I urge the Minister of State to ensure that alcohol abuse retains its place in the strategy and that it does not lose ground to other drugs. I agree that heroin and ecstasy, by and large, present huge problems of a nature which alcohol does not. Nevertheless, there are areas throughout the country, including my constituency, where there are particular problems.

There is a recommendation in the strategy that the Garda should be in a position, where necessary, to lodge objections to the renewal of licences for publicans and night club owners where there has been a history of drug dealing on the premises. As legalities would become involved, it would probably be extremely difficult to prove a history of drug dealing on any premises. It is interesting, however, that courts throughout the country are involved on a weekly basis in dealing not just with incidents arising as a result of activities on these premises but also in granting special exemption certificates to these premises to sell a drug which is referred to in the drugs strategy, namely, alcohol. It is an age old problem in this country where there has been a tolerance of alcohol.

Some might say I am preaching with all the zeal of the converted, and that may be. However, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that we have as big a problem with alcohol as we do with the headline grabbing activities which arise from the abuse of other drugs. Alcohol abuse is also more widespread. It is worth repeating that the problems arising from the abuse of hard drugs are horrific. The knock-on effects on society in general, particularly on communities, are worthy of the highest priority. I do not wish to distract from the objective of the strategy in that regard. All I ask is that alcohol abuse should have its place in the strategy and should not be overlooked.

I congratulate the Minister of State on the manner in which investment in sport and recreation has been dealt with in the strategy. We are all aware of the old adage that prevention is better than cure. While the major emphasis must be on curing the ills currently in society arising from drugs, nevertheless it is important that in a strategy such as this there is a balance between cure and prevention.

There is no better way to prevent a recurrence of these problems in the future than by investment in recreational facilities. To date the expenditure involved in the young people's facilities and services fund amounts to £45 million on 340 projects. That works out at approximately £130,000 per project which is significant funding for any project in the area of youth facilities and services. Long may that continue. I have no doubt we will reap the reward in the medium and long-term.

I welcome the recommendation for increased co-ordination and co-operation between the drugs and alcohol strategies. The introduction of the regional drugs task force is indicative of the community-based approach to this problem. Since I became involved in politics 18 months ago I have been very struck by the amount of voluntary work being done in community-based organisations of every type. Unfortunately, as Members will be aware, there is a huge reliance on a very small corps of people in all these organisations. The reality is that there is only so much the State can do. The State agency's role must be one of leadership and resourcing but the initiative and the work must be done on the ground. There must be an integrated and co-ordinated approach from everyone involved in youth work, including State agencies, community organisations and voluntary organisations.

We are aware that 2001 is the year of the volunteer. We are equally aware of the huge fall-off in voluntary work and the commitment given by volunteers to the community. It is believed that this is a product of the Celtic tiger and the lack of leisure time, but I believe there is more to it. It behoves all of us involved in the Legislature to ensure that groups involved in good work get every possible encouragement. I congratulate the Minister of State on encouraging the input of such groups in this important project.

I welcome the Minister of State to the House and congratulate him on the introduction of the strategy. I look forward to his contribution. When it was introduced six months ago the strategy set out very clear targets and I look forward to his comments on how these are being achieved.

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Eoin Ryan, to the House and join previous speakers in looking forward to his contribution, particularly in terms of the progress made on achieving the targets set last May. It seems a little early to look for results, but given that the Government parties have tabled this motion there are obviously some results to put on the record.

The motion welcomes, in particular, the proposed establishment of the regional drugs task forces to address the drugs problem, but I would like to know the details of what is actually happening across the country and if effective action is being taken. The task is monumental because dealing with the drugs problem is like dealing with the drink problem. It is now a problem as much rooted in our community as addiction to alcohol and anybody who presumes it to be an urban or city problem is suffering from delusions. The reality is that there is not a parish in the country that has not been affected in some way by the drugs problem. The more isolated rural areas first experienced this problem ten or 15 years ago, but there is now a greater focus on it because it has become more city-orientated.

Reference has been made to the interdepartmental group and the need for ongoing monitoring by the local drugs task forces in disadvantaged urban areas, particularly having regard to evidence of localised heroin misuse. The reality is that the problem is very evident in urban disadvantaged areas because the people addicted to hard drugs in those areas have to commit crime to secure the funding to purchase the drug.

There is a drugs problem that we, as a society, may not wish to acknowledge because it might not be seen as kosher. The fact is that there is a drugs problem among the middle and upper classes, but the people involved do not have to rob to obtain funds to purchase the drugs. That topic is not widely discussed. It is not seen as a middle class problem because middle class people do not do things like that. Let us be honest about this. Drug abuse, like addiction to alcohol, spans all classes and creeds and it needs to be addressed in a wider context. To focus specifically on a particular element of our community would be somewhat negligent.

There is evidence of the fall-out from drug addiction in urban disadvantaged areas such as damage to property, robbery, etc. There is not that evidence in the other areas, but there are all the other fall-out effects within families in particular and on the part of individuals in terms of their work, etc. That is the reality. There may not be many statistics to prove that but it is evident in any town in Ireland and it is something of which the authorities who have responsibilities in this area should be aware. It would not be acceptable to knock on some local professional or businessman's door and suggest there may be a problem. I do not know how the Minister will address that.

Although I compliment the Minister of State on the work he has done, I am not sure that the strategy outlined in the motion will be effective across the board. For the strategy to be in any way successful, the supply of drugs is the fundamental issue to be addressed. If drugs are not available, people cannot use them. If the problem of supply can be tackled, we will make advances in terms of dealing with the overall problem. That involves putting extra people into the task forces and, in particular, into the section in the Garda which deals specifically with the drugs problem. There is a real need to assign more Garda personnel to this area. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has a responsibility to ensure there is a more specific focus on the problem and that more personnel are given the skills necessary to deal with it.

On the importation of drugs, the Minister of State's aspirations are to increase the volume of opiates and all other drugs seized by 25% by the end of 2004 and by 50% by the end of 2008, using 2000 seizures as a base. That is a commendable aspiration, but how will it be achieved if the personnel are not in place to deal with the problem? The ways in which drugs come into this country vary. They come in by air and sea transport—

Mr. Moylan

By post.

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

—and other unusual methods. In Moneypoint a ship arrived from South America with £8 million worth of drugs on board. They are coming in through Shannon Airport and through freight, but in addition to those obvious large seizures there have been much smaller seizures on the small piers in villages along the coastline. I discussed this problem over ten years ago with my local superintendent. Action was taken and drugs were discovered. That is the reality, but the importation of drugs has been happening for years and it is continuing. The issue of supply cannot be addressed until there is a sufficient number of gardaí to detect and seize these drugs. Priority must be given to that.

In regard to those already addicted to drugs, that is a real problem which is having a devastating effect on the individuals concerned, their families and their communities. I am pleased that proposals are being brought forward to address that problem, and this should be done in each of the health board areas. There should not be a problem in terms of funding because sufficient funding has to be allocated to cure the addiction. The range of people affected by this problem in terms of age and other aspects is dramatic and that should be addressed also.

I welcome the current awareness campaign in schools, which has been very successful. Garda personnel visit the schools and advise youngsters of the dangers inherent in taking hard drugs, but at some stage they will find themselves in a social situation where they are put under pressure by their peers to take drugs, and that is where the real difficulty arises. From that point on it is a case of pot luck as to whether they actually become addicted to drugs. That is the difficulty. There must be awareness of the dangers of drugs across the community, in the schools, families and society in general, and the current awareness campaign could be heightened considerably. There is a campaign in relation to the dangers of smoking, but we need more publicity about the dangers of taking hard drugs.

Co-operation with other security forces in Europe and throughout the world is vitally important also. We should interact with Interpol in terms of tracking these drugs from the point of source to their arrival in our ports so that the people can be apprehended and the drugs seized. That is extremely important.

Will the Minister of State outline what is being done to strengthen and consolidate existing coastal watch and ports of entry measures designed to restrict the importation of illicit drugs? I am not aware of any major action or coastal watch taking place in the largest estuary in this country, the River Shannon estuary, over and above the traditional level of activity, but perhaps the Minister of State will surprise me by telling me that wonderful things are happening there.

Another issue which has not been addressed, and perhaps it is a sensitive issue, is that of prohibition, to which Senator Glennon referred. Alcohol was prohibited in the USA in the 1920s but perhaps the temptation of forbidden fruit is a relevant analogy in that regard. Has the Minister of State given consideration to legalising any form of drugs? In 1968, there were 500 heroin addicts in the UK and I understand there are now over half a million. Such a dramatic increase may suggest that prohibition makes drugs more attractive. Does the Minister of State envisage any advantage in lifting the prohibition on some of the milder drugs? Perhaps he will give the House the benefit of expert advice from his Department in this matter. I am not recommending or supporting such a move but it would be useful to find out if there is a particular view on it in the Department. If it would reduce the number of drug users, it may be worth examining.

On the overall situation, I look forward to hearing what the Minister of State has to say on what has happened since May. I do not believe the number of seizures has increased dramatically or that the number of users has decreased. Indeed, the number of drug users seems to be increasing daily and will continue to increase. The task facing the Government, in particular the Minister of State, is a difficult and challenging one. I wish him well in his work.

Some wonderful work has been done by voluntary organisations and individual volunteers in local communities. Personnel from the Garda Síochána and the health boards have also done highly commendable work, while operating with very limited resources. Many of them go far beyond the call of duty and work outside their normal working hours. They deserve the full support of the relevant Departments and they should be provided with the necessary resources to enable them to be fully effective in their work. That, of course, will only happen if the finances are provided. In the context of imminent financial restrictions, it would be unfortunate if people with particular problems and the more deprived elements in our community should be the first to suffer. I hope the Minister of State will ensure that the required level of funding will be provided in the Estimates and in the budget.

Minister of State at the Department of Tourism, Sport and Recreation (Mr. E. Ryan)

I welcome the opportunity to address the Seanad and to provide an update on the progress which has been made in the first six months of the implementation of the new national drugs strategy. Since the strategy was launched last May, I have been heartened by the interest shown, both by my colleagues in the Oireachtas and the public, in addressing the problem of drug misuse. I am glad this concern is shared by the Government and that is why the strategy will tackle the problem in the most comprehensive way ever undertaken in this country. Rather than being just a noble statement of values, the new strategy contains over 100 separate actions to be carried out by a range of Departments and agencies under the four pillars of supply reduction, prevention, treatment and research. This is the first time all those involved in drug misuse policy have been brought into a single framework to drive the strategy forward. In this context, Departments and agencies have been working towards meeting the targets outlined for the end of this year. For example, under the supply reduction pillar, Garda resources in local drugs task force areas will be increased by the end of this year. This is an important part of our overall supply reduction strategy which aims to increase drug seizures by 25% by 2004 and by 50% by 2008.

In reply to Senator Taylor-Quinn's comments, I agree with her on the importance of seizures but there are considerable difficulties involved. Most of the drug supplies come into this country in containers, of which there are literally tens of thousands every week, through the ports of Dublin, Waterford, Cork and many other locations. There is a huge amount of money behind this traffic and it is extremely difficult to cut off supply. The United States is virtually fighting a war in Colombia in an effort to cut off supply. There has been some success in cutting down drug supply from Bolivia by getting farmers to grow other alternative crops. I understand that Members of the Oireachtas who visited Bolivia earlier this year regarded that effort as reasonably successful.

In the Irish context, our enormous volume of imports and exports as a major trading nation makes it a very difficult task to intercept and cut off illicit drug supplies concealed in containers. We will ask the Garda to update us every six months on the level of seizures achieved and I take the opportunity to congratulate it on some recent major seizures of heroin in Dublin. International contacts and liaison with police forces in other European countries is a significant factor in such successful operations.

The prevention pillar of the national drugs strategy will include the launch of a major awareness campaign. This will be an ongoing campaign, developed by the Department of Health and Children. It will promote greater awareness and understanding of the cause and consequences of drug misuse, not only to the individual, but also to his or her family and society in general.

Senators referred to prohibition and the possibility of legalising certain drugs. The Minister for Health and Children gave a briefing at a parliamentary party meeting today on a Bill in relation to tobacco. Nicotine in tobacco is causing huge problems, yet some people are suggesting that we should legalise a product which, on the evidence I have read in a number of different reports, is five, six or perhaps up to ten times more carcinogenic than tobacco. Some individuals may dispute that but I cannot envisage any Government legalising cannabis, having regard to the cases in relation to tobacco which are going through the courts in the USA and which will probably follow in Europe also.

It is true that no major study has been undertaken since the late 1970s in relation to cannabis, but many of the studies which have been done show that it has definite side effects. Even if it did not have side effects, there are problems in relation to young people, especially in certain areas and in the context of social deprivation and dysfunctional families, which would be further exacerbated by legalising this drug. That would be an enormous step for any country to take and I am certainly not convinced about it. I have read fairly widely on the issue and I am not giving undue weight to the more extreme views. In the United States, an increasing number of people are presenting for treatment for dependency problems in relation to cannabis. That debate continues here, in Britain and other countries, but we are a long way from doing something like that. Much more medical research is required to ensure we do not make a decision that could be very detrimental to people's health.

In addition, the Department of Education and Science is putting in place mechanisms that will support, enhance and ensure the delivery of school-based education and prevention programmes in all schools nationwide over the next three years. The ultimate aim of these programmes should be to ensure that every child has the necessary knowledge and life skills to resist drugs or make informed choices about their health, personal lives and social development. As a first step, the Walk Tall and On My Own Two Feet programmes will be delivered in all schools in the local drugs task force areas during the current academic year, 2001/02.

An important target in the strategy is to increase the number of methadone treatment places for opiate addiction to 6,000 by the end of 2001 and to a minimum of 6,500 by end 2002. This should go a long way to eliminating waiting lists and I am glad to say we are well on the way to achieving this year's figure.

Methadone treatment places are, however, only one part of our response to treatment and rehabilitation issues. We want to see immediate access to professional assessment and counselling for drug misusers. This will be followed by commencement of treatment not more than one month later.

A range of rehabilitation and treatment programmes will be put in place in each health board area. These will be designed to re-integrate the misuser back into society and a series of training and employment programmes will also be developed and put in place. The strategy also identifies the critical need to target teenage drug misusers and, accordingly, a special protocol will be developed to allow under 18 year olds to be treated for serious drug problems. This is a radical step forward and will help us to make the interventions needed at this critical time. The Department of Health and Children is working on that protocol and I hope it will be available early in the new year. Co-ordinating the implementation of these actions will be an important task for my Department and it is one in which I will be playing a personal role.

The interdepartmental group on drugs, which I chair, will co-ordinate the implementation of the strategy in partnership with Government Departments, State agencies, and the community and voluntary sectors. Its role will include bringing to the attention of the Cabinet committee on social inclusion any identified issues which have a detri mental effect on the implementation of the strategy through the provision of a six-monthly progress report. I will present the first of these six-monthly progress reports to the Cabinet committee on social inclusion in December.

In addition a sub-committee of the existing Select Committee on Tourism, Sport and Recreation, with a particular focus on drug issues, will be set up. I have been in touch with the Chairman, Deputy Moynihan-Cronin, and it is hoped to have the sub-committee established before the end of the year.

This was an idea we got from Sweden. Members of the parliament there are able to question all government departments and the people involved. I have had complaints from public representatives that they are unable to get on local drug task forces and from Members of the Oireachtas, who are not in a local authority and are not able to get on regional task forces. From what I saw in Sweden, it is far more effective for members of parliament to be on a parliamentary committee. The debate was extremely good and they were able to question people about how the plan was being implemented and other pertinent issues.

The national drugs strategy is built on the premise of developing initiatives which are designed to meet local needs, working in tandem with local communities. The underlying principle of the strategy is the development of an integrated response, which both reflects the multi-dimensional nature of the problem and is informed by the active participation of all the key players. An important element of our overall response has been the involvement of the community and voluntary sectors with the State agencies in tackling drug misuse.

Perhaps the best example of this is the work carried out by the 14 local drugs task forces. These task forces were set up in the areas worst affected by problem drug use. The principal strength of the task forces is that they allow local community and voluntary groups to work hand in hand with the State agencies in responding to the drug problem in their areas. Together they draw up a local action plan for the area, which is assessed by the national drugs strategy team.

The task forces provide a range of drug programmes and services in the areas of supply reduction, treatment, rehabilitation, awareness, prevention and education and they are currently updating their local action plans for the next three years. The setting up of the task forces has been a positive development and has been generally regarded as an effective mechanism for tackling the drug problem. At the European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction in Lisbon recently, I was told that one of the biggest hits on their website was local drugs task force in Ireland, which is very flattering and positive for those task forces.

One of the conclusions of the review of the strategy was that it was clear the local drugs task forces are operating well in the urban areas where they have been set up. Furthermore, it was recognised that they afford a valuable opportunity for local community and voluntary groups to participate in the design and delivery of measures being put in place to deal with problem drug use in their areas. However, the review group noted that the issue of drug misuse outside these areas is not specifically addressed by the current structures. In this context, the strategy recommended the setting up of ten regional drugs task forces.

These task forces will be set up in each of the current regional health board areas, including each of the three health boards that comprise the ERHA. The purpose of the RDTFs is to ensure the development of a co-ordinated and integrated response to the problem of drug misuse in the regions. The RDTFs will also provide us with up-to-date information on drug related resources and services, as well as information on the nature and extent of the problem of drug misuse in the regions. Once the service gaps have been identified for each region, the regional task forces will prepare a development plan to respond to the issues identified. These plans will be assessed by the national drugs strategy team, which will make recommendations to the interdepartmental group on drugs and the Cabinet committee on social inclusion.

The secretariat for the regional task forces will be provided by the health boards, but their membership will be taken from the full range of statutory, community and voluntary sectors and will be flexible to local circumstances. To assist in the setting up of the RDTFs, I recently addressed a series of ten information seminars throughout the country. The seminars were designed to provide information on the national drugs strategy and the regional drugs task forces which are being set up. The process is well under way and good progress is being made.

One of the issues which arose during the regional seminars was that of alcohol misuse among young people, to which Senator Glennon referred. This is not the first time that I have been made aware of this problem. The national drugs strategy is primarily concerned with the use of illicit drugs and those were the terms of reference given to the review group. However, the strategy does contain recommendations designed to ensure there is increased co-ordination and co-operation between the drugs and alcohol strategies. In this context, the interdepartmental group on drugs, in consultation with the national drugs strategy team and the Department of Health and Children, will develop formal links at local, regional and national level with the national alcohol policy by the end of this year. This will ensure complementarity between the different measures being undertaken.

People, especially young people, often get more courageous when they have been drinking and are then more open to the idea of taking drugs. People are smoking cannabis and taking ecstasy in every town and village. Even though I have been criticised for saying so, thankfully up to now heroin has not gone outside Dublin. However there are signs that it is beginning to creep into certain towns around the country. That is a worrying trend and one that we will have to tackle. We are aware of this and are working on it. Other drugs are very widely used throughout the country.

As was pointed out at one of the regional seminars, alcohol is an illicit drug for people under 18. I believe the alcohol and drug strategies will eventually be tied closely together because many of the preventative measures and alternative activities we are putting in place for young people address both alcohol and drug problems. Within towns and villages we need to develop attractions other than the local pub. While the review of the strategy was taking place a number of other initiatives have also been ongoing. I will mention just two of them. The young people's facilities and services fund was set up in 1998. It is primarily focused on the local drugs task force areas and the selected urban areas of Galway, Limerick, Waterford and Carlow where serious drug problems exist or have the potential to develop. The purpose of the fund is to develop youth facilities, including sports and recreation facilities and services. Over £45 million has been allocated to 340 projects which have been developed as part of this fund.

It is important to mention that there are many young people who would not kick a football if their life depended upon it. They have no interest in sport and one cannot force them to do so. We must therefore develop other initiatives, involving music and computers among other activities. The young people's facilities and services fund has gone a long way towards doing that. However, we need to push it further and to work on it in a more structured way. I firmly believe in the important role diversionary activities such as involvement in sport and recreation can have on young people at risk of drug misuse. I am pleased this fund aims to put those in place in areas where they are most needed.

I established the National Advisory Committee on Drugs to advise the Government on the prevalence, treatment and consequences of drug use. The committee is made up of a range of academic, community, voluntary and statutory interests and is overseeing a three-year prioritised programme of research and evaluation on the extent, nature, causes and effects of drug misuse. The committee's first publication of research, entitled Prevention of Drug Use – an Overview of Research, will take place before the end of the year. It should be borne in mind that all this is being done against the backdrop of substantial funding being made available under the National Development Plan, 2000-2006, for social inclusion measures.

After six months of the new strategy I hope I am not being too presumptuous in looking at the prospects for the future. There is much work to be done by a range of individuals and bodies, but the foundations are solidly laid. I have been impressed by the dedication, interest and concern expressed to me on this issue. In the new strategy we have a clear focus on what needs to be done. We should not underestimate the task which faces us, but we can succeed and make a measurable difference for the first time. By working together, Departments, State agencies, front-line workers, communities and politicians can stake a claim to a fairer and more socially inclusive society.

The reason the first strategy was put in place was the huge problem of heroin in certain parts of Dublin, Cork and Bray. If one looks at the profile of heroin users one can see they are predominantly males under 30 years of age who are unemployed and who left school before the age of 16. We can all list, off the top of our heads, ten parishes or communities in Dublin from where they have come. Local drugs task forces have gone a long way towards tackling their problems as has the new RAPID programme for the purposes of which we have identified the 25 most disadvantaged communities around the country. We can make a big difference by putting resources into those areas and giving people the opportunity to stay in school. Staying in school is the key to this. If you talk to most of those who suffer from heroin abuse you will find that they all left school early. Many of them are extremely clever young people. If we can show them the importance of education and give them and their families opportunities we can break the cycle of heroin misuse in Dublin. If one talks to the Governor of Mountjoy, Mr. Lonergan, he will tell one about that cycle. The same people come into prison over and over again. He has seen them before, he has seen their fathers and their grandfathers. It is very depressing, but if we all work together we can make a significant impact.

The new strategy will open a window of hope to all those individuals and communities suffering because of drugs and will make this a country of which we can all be proud. I look forward to hearing from Members of the House who have not yet contributed and I thank those who have spoken for the views they have expressed.

Mr. Norris

With the indulgence of the House, I wish to share my time with Senator Henry, who has modestly suggested that she only needs one minute.

An Cathaoirleach

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Norris

I welcome the Minister of State. He is almost of the right generation to deal with the drug problem. He is certainly much closer to being so than I am, although I take a slightly more radical view. However, he is absolutely right about the importance of staying in school. He used the phrase "breaking the cycle". I say to the Minister of State that he should go to his colleagues in Government. I have contact with the Breaking the Cycle programme in Marlborough Street and it is absolutely wonderful. The way those kids are looked after is magical, but just at the moment of greatest vulnerability they go into the secondary programme and it is all removed. That is when they are most vulnerable to drugs. Why in God's name is the educational support not continued through the difficult adolescent years when these children are much more liable to drug abuse? Without that these beautiful young kids end up on the needle.

I advocate the removal of restrictions on drug taking. I acknowledge that the two most serious, damaging drugs, to both of which I am addicted, are nicotine and alcohol. One must look at the social consequences of removing the legal inhibitions on drug taking. It is a long-term notion. While I certainly support what the Minister of State is doing, his is only a medium-term intervention because Ireland cannot undertake alone what must be done. What drives the international drugs industry is finance, profit. The war on drugs, which the Americans laughably engage in, only serves to drive up the profits while being absolutely impossible to win. It is just like prohibition. With regard to heroin – I take on the hard one first – if you remove the legal inhibitions, if you allow the possibility for people to take drugs legally, what you will immediately do is decrease crime in our inner cities by about 90%. Anybody will tell you that. The Minister of State should ask his friend Mr. Lonergan about that and he will be told that is the case.

What happens is that people get hooked on heroin. Fatalities occur by the impure dosages they receive because they are not properly monitored. There is no quality control. The craving then drives addicts to attack old women, bang them on the head and snatch their handbags. That would stop if some of those drugs were legalised. We cannot deal with this on our own, but that is the direction in which we will have to go. There is no doubt that people sustained by medically supervised ingestion of heroin can lead perfectly normal lives.

Mr. E. Ryan

We went to look at that in Switzerland. We get complaints here about people on methadone. They have to attend clinics initially every day and thereafter get take-aways whereupon they have to attend two or three times a week. I was very interested to watch the Swiss system in practice. Addicts have to attend the clinic three times a day, 365 days a year. There are no holidays and no breaks. We saw this in action and we all came away saying, "What a life". What a life it is to have to go to a clinic three times a day, 365 days a year. Some of them went twice a day, but that was the least anyone attended. Giving somebody that kind of future is not the way forward.

Mr. Norris

I absolutely agree with the Minister of State and I am sure his contribution will be taken out of my time. What he said was most useful.

I am not suggesting the Swiss system, but I commend the Minister to watch a "Despatches" programme broadcast recently on Channel 4 television. A constituent has written to me about it and I have also had correspondence from doctors on the issue. According to my correspondent, the programme demonstrated that it is the considered opinion of countless medical experts on heroin that using medically prescribed heroin on a day-to-day basis will have practically no ill effects on a user, who can live a perfectly normal life. I refer to medical ill effects. Obviously, the programme the Swiss have is socially defective. The point was made during the programme that after the First World War heroin was used in hospitals and many people became addicted. They were given prescriptions and lived perfectly natural, normal lives.

There is a pilot scheme in Plymouth in which a GP has been allowed to administer heroin. The addicts are happy and the police are happy because of the drop in the crime rate. A similar scheme was run in Liverpool a few years ago and the idea was taken up by a priest in Amsterdam. The results were remarkable but the scheme was inhibited by pressure from the United States of America and that was a great pity. Such experiments must be examined so that they can be monitored and we can see how things really are.

Several people referred to Mr. Ming. He sent me one of these yokes too with instructions to ming off to the Garda with it. I am not a messenger boy for anybody, including Mr. Ming, and I smoked it. I will tell the Senators the result if they want to know. It looked, smelt and tasted like little shredded fragments of lettuce and it had precisely the same effect. In other words, it was a total waste of time. I do not think it has done me the slightest damage; it just gave me a horrible sense of disappointment.

On the other hand, since he approached the matter in this way, we ought to mention some of the counterbalancing arguments that he produced for us. He asked all Members of the Oireachtas, in addition to smoking the cigarette, to put on the record that over a 15 year research period, research has reported no significant differences in cognitive decline between heavy users, light users and non-users of cannabis. His source was the American Journal of Epidemiology. He quotes the Institute of Medicine in Washington, DC, stating “There is no conclusive evidence that the drug effects of marijuana are causally linked to the subsequent use of other illicit drugs.”

It is also argued that the US Federal Government has failed to make public a study it conducted in 1994 because it demonstrates that there is no substantial carcinogenic effect. This study cost $2 million. It was conducted by the national toxicology programme, the director of which was John Bucher, who said publicly that there was no evidence of cancer inducing elements, although I presume that if mixed with nicotine, one would suffer the effects of the nicotine. However, I am not a doctor and I do not know.

In strict medical terms, according to the US Drugs Enforcement Agency, marijuana is far safer than many foods that we eat. It makes the point that if one eats ten potatoes, it could be fatal, but it is impossible to eat enough marijuana to kill oneself. Since 1969, government appointed commissions in the United States, Canada, England, Australia, and the Netherlands concluded "after reviewing the scientific evidence, that marijuana's dangers had previously been greatly exaggerated, and urged lawmakers to drastically reduce or eliminate penalties for marijuana possession". I am glad this has been done in the neighbouring jurisdiction. I hope that we watch what is happening there.

I am seriously committed to the view I have, even though it is controversial. Especially in terms of sufferers from multiple sclerosis and this sort of disease, marijuana clearly acts as a palliative. It is cruel to criminalise people with such diseases. As a first step, this should be addressed. Prohibition criminalises a lot of law abiding people. The source of the material I have alluded to is the Police Foundation of Great Britain. There is no evidence that smoking marijuana exerts permanently deleterious effects on the normal cardiovascular system.

A US Institution of Medicine report of 1982 states that when examining the medical effects of marijuana use, the US National Commission on Marijuana and Drug Abuse concluded, "A careful search of the literature and testimony of the nation's health officials has not revealed a single human fatality in the United States proven to have resulted solely from ingestion of marijuana."

The cannabis market in Ireland is estimated to be worth between £150 million and £300 million per year to our economy. Legalisation would remove this market from the criminals. We are funding these big criminals. The vast majority of cannabis is imported. Legalisation would free Irish producers and we would have a tax dividend from it.

The idea behind prohibition was to reduce supply and demand. In fact, it has increased both. Therefore, it has been a failure. While I welcome the Minister's moves, I regard them as an interim measure. Eventually, if we are to get rid of the problem of drug addiction, we must face it honestly and treat people as adults. If they want to shove a needle in themselves, at least it is the State's responsibility to make sure there will be less social consequences in terms of people getting attacked because of others' addictions, and also to ensure that people get something reasonably pure so they do not kill themselves inadvertently.

In international politics, the situation in Afghanistan, for example, is horrendous. The Northern Alliance is just as bad. There is a vast reservoir of the poppy crop in warehouses in Afghanistan and it is all going to be dosed. It is a far more dangerous weapon than anthrax, which is really a kind of scare story which originated in the United States. The fact that those who grow this crop, despite their pretended religious belief, are prepared to inflict this degree of misery and suffering on other human beings, including Pakis tanis, is appalling. Pakistan has an immense rate of heroin addiction in the most squalid circumstances. It puts the Afghan regime in a certain light, as it did previously when the Iranian regime used to do the same thing in a deliberate attempt to undermine the West. They felt they were paying us back for what we in the West did with the notorious China war fought by the imperial interests in order to keep the Chinese working class addicted to the smoking of opium.

We should monitor the situation and look at different experiments, in particular the ones where people are given the dignity of being allowed access to the drugs they need in a controlled way. The only real problem I see is that one might have evil sharks and drug dealers trying to create new markets for themselves and colonising other groups of vulnerable young, vulnerable people. That is where education comes in.

I thank the Chair for his lenience.

Dr. Henry

I thank Senator Norris for sharing his time. I applaud what the Minister is doing. His efforts are very worthwhile and he is making progress. While I would not go so far as agreeing with everything Senator Norris said, he has made some extremely valuable points, not least pointing out the influence the war in Afghanistan will have on the need for the regime to release more and more of their drugs into the world market so they will have the money to buy the equipment needed to wage this war.

Senator Norris said the Minister needs to engage his colleagues in the Government to help him. He pointed to the Minister for Education and Science regarding the Breaking the Cycle programme, which should be extended to the secondary schools where there are children from deprived areas who are more likely to get involved in drugs.

The Minister should get the Minister for Health and Children involved as well. I know the Minister for Health and Children is involved in helping the Minister with the drug problem and he pointed out in his speech that during the regional seminars, one of the issues that arose pertained to alcohol misuse among young people. That is important, but the Minister for Health and Children will have to push forward his legislation on the use of tobacco. Senator Norris said that tobacco is frequently used in a mixture with cannabis when the latter is smoked, which is the reason there are carcinogenic effects.

I attended the seminar in Dublin Castle on the control of tobacco and smoking. It was an excellent seminar but we really need to get on with the legislation. One of the most serious things we have always known regarding smoking and drug use is that children who are involved in smoking are more likely to get involved in the use of drugs. If they begin smoking at ten, 11 or 12, they are more likely, a few years later, to be involved in the use of illegal drugs. However, we have not known until recently that there are biochemical effects in terms of opening up the receptors of the brain, which are useful in the acquisition of an addiction to drugs. It is not just that the children in question came from lower socio-economic groups where people are more likely to become involved in smoking at a younger age. The Minister for Health and Children should assist the Minster more in this area.

While the Western Health Board is doing splendid work with test purchases of cigarettes, it is very difficult for environmental health officers to bring charges against shopkeepers for selling cigarettes to children who are under age because one has to have someone in the shop to witness the sale taking place. In the Western Health Board area in particular, test purchases have been carried out and there have been some successful convictions already and there are more in the pipeline. The Minister should ask the Minister for Health and Children to make sure under age smokers are prevented from using what is a legal drug for adults.

I am not quite sure that legalising cannabis would have the effect on reducing crime that Senator Norris thinks. We saw yesterday how a boat load of cigarettes, which entered the country illegally, was seized in Drogheda. The sale of illegally imported cigarettes is one of the main areas of contraband in this country. It may be a bit sanguine to think one could solve crime by simply legalising cannabis or heroin.

I commend the Minister for what he is doing but I urge him again to ask the Minister for Health and Children to push forward his legislation regarding the consumption of tobacco because young children must be prevented from becoming involved in smoking it if one is to prevent them from getting involved with illicit drugs.

Mr. Kett

I welcome the Minister to the House and thank him for coming here again to listen to our concerns and update us on the progress his initiatives have made to date. He was last in the House in late May and I recall complimenting him then on the launch of the RAPID programme which he had recently launched in fulfilment of a commitment made by the Government under the Programme for Prosperity and Fairness. The purpose of the programme is to identify 25 disadvantaged areas and to target investment at them to improve the environment and, it is hoped, rid them of drugs eventually. The programme should benefit about 165,000 people.

The national development plan gave a commitment to provide £15 billion over six years and the Minister said on the previous occasion he was in the House that it was intended to front load an element of that money. I remember remarking at the time that that made good sense. It would allow for immediate plans to be put in train whose progress could be examined later and which could be followed through with whatever other funds were available. To front load money, examine the success of consequent initiatives and provide additional finance for the most successful ones is probably the best way forward.

We are all aware that, despite ongoing initiatives by the Government, many families still suffer the scourge of drugs, especially in my area. Indications are that our problem is on a par with those of our European partners, and that is frightening. When I thought of drugs before this, I thought of Europe and places such as Holland. The fact we are now on a similar level to countries where certain drugs are freely smoked or whatever they do with them in public places is frightening. I know the commitment of the Government to tackle the problem is without equal in any other European country. I am sure other such countries have worse heroin and drug problems.

The Minister mentioned the 14 drug task forces in operation, one of which operates extremely efficiently in an area I represent, namely, the north inner city. To date it has facilitated the establishment of 26 innovative community-based projects in the area of drug treatment, rehabilitation, prevention and supply control. The majority of these have been evaluated successfully and I am told they will be mainstreamed by the end of the year. Despite all the problems these task forces face, the one of which I know and which is working in my area is making considerable progress.

Various initiatives have been taken in recent years by the Government, especially in targeting heroin where it is an issue in certain areas. There has been a great deal of positive feedback about these initiatives. One which struck me was from the international assessment of methadone treatment. It commended the Government highly for the innovative and successful system it has in place.

The number of treatment locations in the eastern region alone has increased from three to 55 in the past six years. A great deal of effort goes in to siting a treatment location in a specific area. I have been involved in some of these because the health board has not always been absolutely kosher in how it has gone about siting centres, thus causing a great deal of hardship and anxiety for residents in certain areas. I am happy to note that the board appears to have come to terms with this problem, and the manner in which it sites centres now is more efficient and effective.

Treatment is also provided through general practitioners and pharmacies. At the end of August 2001, 5,605 people were on the central methadone treatment list. That compares with 4,332 at the end of 1999 and 1,377 in 1994. The Minister's indication that this should reach in the region of 6,000 by the end of the year and 6,500 by the end of 2002 reflects further the commitment he has to this important and successful treatment programme. Research has shown that positive results are gained using this method. It has shown that there is improved health, a reduction in crime and an increase in the employment of people on this treatment programme.

Many programmes in place have developed over a short period and are based on entirely new ways of doing things. It would be foolish of any of us to expect extremely positive results from these in the short term. They are long-term solutions and there will be positive outcomes as we progress.

The comprehensive review put in place by the Minister and the Taoiseach led to the examination of work in Ireland as against international best practice. It involved possibly the largest ever public consultation in Ireland and also detailed study and consideration of large programmes and projects in other countries. The more we educate ourselves and see how other countries challenge this scourge effectively, the better we will do so as well. The Minister has been doing so and the signs are that it is having positive results.

Our approach towards tackling the issue, alluded to by Senator Moylan, has developed around supply reduction, prevention, treatment and research. I am delighted to see our money being spent under these headings because I see them as being in advance of the problem. To date, we have had by necessity to put our money into tackling crime in the area. Now we are trying to prevent crime. I would also include the heading "education" because it is important money is invested in that as well. I hope we will see these initiatives progressing successfully.

One of the key recommendations I like is the regional task forces the Minister is putting in place. Their task is to develop appropriate policies in their region. There is no one better placed than those working at the coalface in this area, both voluntary and statutory bodies, because they have immediate knowledge of the problems. I know the regional task forces will complement and not replace these. Senator Taylor-Quinn made the point that it is not a problem just for people in the lower echelons but also for those in the higher ones. She also said it is easier to identify those in the lower strata with this problem because they must rob to feed their habit whereas others do not.

I have five words to say to the Minister regarding how he has done so far – keep up the good work.

Mr. Costello

I welcome the Minister and compliment him on his extremely hard work in this area and the comprehensive approach he has taken to the national drugs strategy which has evolved into local drugs task forces and, more recently, into the regional task forces to which he referred. I do not intend to criticise any of the Minister's actions but merely wish to highlight the issues I regard as important in the campaign against serious drug abuse. A number of issues need to be addressed, the first of which entails targeting the problem.

The Minister referred to cannabis and alcohol abuse. In Dublin, the essential target should be heroin abuse. We must separate this type of abuse from other types of abuse. I listened to Senator Norris and others speaking about cannabis. We must clearly separate cannabis and heroin abuse if we are to effectively target the latter. People will say that cannabis and heroin are imported into this country together and that it is difficult to distinguish between them. They will also point to the indications that cannabis is a harmful, carcinogenic substance. However, in terms of serious drug misuse which turns people into zombies and causes crime throughout the city, we must focus on the thousands of heroin users in Dublin. We must adopt a deliberate strategy in this regard and the entire thrust of the Minister's efforts should be directed towards this.

I am not sure we have devised an adequate community, voluntary or statutory response to the problem of heroin abuse. I am a member of the inner city drugs task force which recently reviewed its progress. At this time, many community activists are overloaded with voluntary activities and must attend numerous partnership and task force meetings etc. We must examine the possibility of restructuring voluntary community activities in areas of deprivation because, while I acknowledge that statutory and voluntary services should work hand in hand, a relatively small number of community activists are overburdened.

Statutory organisations are not pulling their weight. The Department of Education and Science still has not sent a representative to the local drugs task force. I note in the Minister's speech that a major part of the prevention pillar is the educational programme. Prevention programmes are to be put in place in all schools nationwide but the Department has not the slightest interest in what the task force is doing, and that is a scandal.

Mr. E. Ryan

I agree with the Senator but a departmental representative will attend a meeting of the task force shortly.

Mr. Costello

I do not know what the Minister means by "shortly" but we have had a serious heroin abuse problem in Dublin for 20 years. The representatives of statutory organisations who attend task force meetings should have some clout. I am at a loss to know what some of the representatives of the Department of Health and Children and other agencies do because they do not seem to take action in regard to decisions made by the task force which often ends up being a mere talking shop in which people air their grievances. In many cases, there are no mechanisms through which to address those grievances although there is a mechanism through the youth facilities and services fund to make funding available.

People seeking treatment in inner city clinics regularly attend my clinic. They cannot get on a treatment programme in the inner city even though I am informed by a representative of the Department of Health and Children that there is no waiting list. There is also a waiting list at the North Circular Road clinic. Surely, the thrust of the Minister's strategy should be to put in place structures to enable everybody to be treated as quickly as possible. Treatment facilities should be tailored to people's needs and should offer people an alternative to heroin abuse and associated crime.

Many heroin abusers act responsibly in that they only sell heroin to two or three reliable clients, as opposed to children, to feed their own addiction. They do this while they are trying to get on treatment programmes in the city clinics. I welcome the fact that local areas are now responsible for their own drug addicts but sufficient resources, commitment and personnel must be provided to overcome the waiting lists which exist.

I attended the AGM during the week of ACET – AIDS Care Education and Training – an organisation which provides services to members of inner city families who are HIV positive or suffer from AIDS, or have a heroin dependency or addiction and to their families who suffer illness and bereavement. ACET has links with a similar organisation in Northern Ireland and is the only cross-Border organisation dealing with drug abuse. ACET's entire budget for this year was £113,000, £17,000 or 16% of which it received from the Government. The organisation fundraised to make up the difference. The national drugs strategy does not seem to be designed to provide funding to groups other than local drugs task forces. I urge the Minister to consider mechanisms to directly fund organisations such as ACET which operates on a city-wide basis and should be funded in the same way as local or regional organisations. ACET provides excellent services and is worthy of a greater degree of State funding. Indeed, the majority of its funding should come from the State.

The Minister is clearly wholeheartedly committed to his job but some loopholes remain to be addressed.

Ms Ormonde

I welcome the Minister to the House. The motion compliments the Minister on the implementation of the national drugs strategy and the establishment of the regional drugs task force. The Minister introduced the four point plan – supply reduction, prevention, treatment and research – that was incorporated in the national drugs strategy which involved statutory, community and voluntary organisations coming together to see how best we might address the social ill of drug abuse. The Minister of State has gone about doing so by introducing the national strategy and he is now introducing the local strategy, which will involve communities and the Garda in self-awareness programmes that will consider how best community gardaí can become involved, and educational programmes that will consider how best to tackle the problem from the point of view of prevention.

The Minister of State referred to prevention which, in my opinion, can only be achieved through the awareness programme and the schemes and programmes in place in our schools. We must see how the latter can be used to involve communities and families because we cannot achieve our goals in isolation. We must obtain full backing from parents, communities and voluntary groups. The drugs problem will not disappear simply on foot of our taking action, particularly if there is an absence of will on the part of the community.

The Minister of State indicated that the strategy is beginning to work. The Government is showing the necessary commitment, particularly in terms of the funding it has invested in youth services, and consideration is being given to how best to incorporate new initiatives in recreation and leisure activities. I welcome developments such as the introduction of prison-based treatment, improved counselling techniques and the putting in place of programmes for those whose involvement with drugs is identified at an early stage.

I am a member of the county development board that deals with the RAPID programme. In my opinion it is best to liaise locally in order to discover how social inclusion can be achieved – be it through education, prevention, the provision of recreational activities or leisure facilities. The key issue here is the necessity of holding ongoing meetings with the various bodies involved in order to obtain feedback about the weaknesses that exist and possible ways to move forward and discover how to address this problem. The Minister of State is going about matters in the right way. As a careers guidance counsellor, I have obtained feedback from members of the community to the effect that the programme is beginning to work. However, this is only because we have alerted the public at large. Unless we deal with this issue on a joint basis, we will not make progress.

I compliment the Government on the funding it has allocated and I congratulate the Minister of State on the commitment he has shown in this area. In my opinion, what he is doing will work in the long term.

There is another aspect to this matter, namely, how to tackle drug barons. An ongoing problem is the fact that drug pushers operate in residential areas between 4 p.m. and 6 p.m. when there is a lull in activity and when young people leave school and loiter about because both of their parents are still at work. These children have time on their hands because their parents do not return home until 6 p.m. and drug pushers are exploiting this fact. I have experience of dealing with this problem and I believe we must target drug pushers who operate in areas such as those to which I refer. Community gardaí must be alerted to their activities. Young people are particularly vulnerable during the period to which I refer because of the absence of a parental presence.

Drug barons must be dealt with and publicans who entertain drug pushers on their premises or allow drug abuse to take place there should have their licences taken from them. I accept that initiatives in this area are part of the overall plan. That plan must ensure that the strategy of the health boards works in tandem with the national, regional and local strategies. This system is well structured and will surely reap rewards. With the RAPID programme also coming on board, I have no doubt it will be a success. I compliment the Minister of State who has shown a great knowledge of this subject.

Mr. Moylan

When problems arose in this area in the past, everyone discussed the need for fire brigade action. That is no longer the case, particularly in view of the Minister of State's plan which will encourage the various organisations involved in this area to work in co-operation with each other in dealing with the difficulties caused by drug abuse.

I did not refer to alcohol abuse, which is a serious problem, when I made my initial contribution. However, all substance abuse is being considered under the auspices of the programme and we wish the Minister of State well with the various proposals he has put forward. I know that with the co-operation of all right thinking people, this programme will be an excellent success. We wish the Minister of State well with it in the future.

Question put and agreed to.

Acting Chairman (Mr. J. Cregan)

When is it proposed to sit again?

Mr. Moylan

At 10.30 a.m. tomorrow.