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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 14 Nov 2001

Vol. 168 No. 12

Address by European Commissioner.

It is my privilege and honour, on behalf of the Members of Seanad Éireann, to welcome the Commissioner, David Byrne, to the House today. It is an opportune moment to recall that this is the third occasion on which we have welcomed Members of the European Commission to this Chamber. In October 1996 Commissioner Neil Kinnock was with us, followed by the President of the Commission, Mr. Jacques Santer, in November 1998.

However, today is a particular occasion for celebration and rejoicing in that in welcoming Commissioner Byrne we have among us a distinguished Irishman who has served the Irish State and people in a number of eminent capacities, not least of which was as Attorney General from 1997 to 1999. As Commissioner with responsibility for Health and Consumer Protection, Commissioner Byrne's mission statement is to ensure a high level of protection of consumers' health, safety and economic interest as well as public health at the level of the European Union. This is a wide and significant portfolio of responsibilities encompassing, as it does, core issues of health and well-being, issues which are of paramount and critical concern to us as legislators.

Sometimes we tend to think of the institutions of the European Union as being concerned almost exclusively with macro-economic realities, yet the truly human face of their activities is evidenced by an address which Commissioner Byrne made on 25 October last at a European conference on mental health in which he spoke eloquently and passionately on how the Commission is determined to respond positively to challenges in the mental health area, in his own words "an area of life that has perhaps too long not been the centre stage of the policy agenda".

The tragic events in the United States on 11 September and the effects of that disaster serve only to remind us of how interdependent our world has manifestly become and how it is incumbent on all of us to work ceaselessly to achieve peace and prosperity, ideals which, at its heart, the European Union symbolises and serves.

It gives me great please to invite Commissioner Byrne to address Seanad Éireann.

Thank you, a Chathaoirligh. A Chathaoirligh, Sheanadóiri, a dhaoine uaisle, agus a chairde Gael, it is a great honour to be the first Irish Commissioner to be invited to address Seanad Éireann. It is all the more appropriate as we are at a crucial stage in the development of the European Union. This has been recognised in Ireland, particularly with the establishment of the National Forum on Europe, and I am delighted a Member of the House, Senator Maurice Hayes, has agreed to preside over this important endeavour.

I would like to share with you some ideas on the future of Europe. A completely new era in the history of Europe began when the European Community was founded over 50 years ago. It was the response to centuries of a precarious balance of powers on the Continent which again and again resulted in terrible wars culminating in the two world wars between 1914 and 1945. The core concept of Europe after 1945 was, and still is, a rejection of the historical ambitions of individual countries. Fifty years on, the process of European construction is probably the biggest political opportunity facing the states and peoples involved. Our success or failure will be of crucial importance to the future of each and every one of us, but especially to future generations, because what Europe stands for and where it is going are now being called into question by many.

Democracy is enduring. It has endured through thick and thin. We Irish know this only too well, yet many of the countries hidden from democracy for so many years in eastern Europe are now on the threshold of joining the democratic force of the European Union. As several European political figures recently stated, we now have a crisis of European identity and an increasing disillusionment on the part of European people. The challenge and opportunity for us political leaders are to address these issues and devise a credible vision for the future. President Prodi did so on Monday in an important address to the College of Europe at Bruges in Belgium.

The time is now ripe for shaping a new Europe. In doing so, however, we must not forget all the positive achievements of the past and the present. We have credible and effective policies in a whole host of areas that are reaping benefits, namely, regional and cohesion policies, for example, education and training, laying the foundations of Ireland's success; agriculture, giving Ireland the opportunity to export 90% of its beef production; a Single Market of 370 million consumers, afford ing much greater choice and competition; justice and home affairs, economic and financial issues, with strong money-laundering legislation; and policies on safe food and consumer protection, such as food labelling and, of course, the developing European Food Authority. Through these policies, conducted by the Union's institutions, Ireland can bring its influence to bear. This can be done directly and through building alliances with other member states.

The referendum result of 7 June on the Nice treaty came as a great disappointment to me. It sent shock waves through the rest of the European Union, but particularly in the candidate countries. I have always been convinced that we are not anti-enlargement in Ireland. My belief was confirmed by the results of the recent opinion survey undertaken on behalf of the Commission. Nevertheless, this same survey points to an information deficit about the Nice treaty, in particular, and the European project generally as being the biggest factor on people's minds. This debate and the establishment of the forum provide excellent platforms for debate and information.

The consequences of the "No" vote are so enormous that we need to reflect fully on their implications. Is Ireland saying "No" to the European Union? I cannot believe this to be the case. Is Ireland saying "No" to enlargement? It seems not. Then, to what was the electorate saying "No"? If we leave things as they are now, then the effect of the "No" vote could be seen and interpreted by our partners as a "No" to Europe and a "No" to enlargement. Before we embark on such a fundamental change in what has been our policy for the past 40 years we need to make sure that this is what the majority of Irish people want.

We must not forget that from 2004 we are aiming at an enlarged Europe with up to ten candidate countries joining progressively. A stronger Europe will be possible through the strengthening of certain policies, for example, justice and home affairs and food safety. Moreover, a more democratic Europe can be created with better participation of citizens in the decision making process. This will be possible notably through national parliaments, stakeholders and, more generally, in the choice of the most effective level of decision making. I will return to this aspect.

People are increasingly seeking more clarity on the direction of the European project. When I think about this I am reminded of the design of a railway where one has built a network of track with a number of stations already built. The train has covered many kilometres, stopped at many stations, taken many new directions, but we must now take stock to ensure we are heading in the right direction. We also need to ensure that the train can stop every now and then at new stations to facilitate enlargement. From my own experi ence of the European project I see the European network revolving around three concepts: competition, to stimulate, co-operation, to strengthen and solidarity, to unify. These very concepts are the tool kit of the European Union. They serve the ideals of developing a people's sovereignty, a people's democracy.

It is useful to recall the European context. The National Forum on Europe provides an excellent platform for debate on the future of Europe and Ireland's place in it and, most significantly, Ireland's contribution to this evolution. Why is this debate so important? It is important because we should aim to develop a sovereign Union in the people's hands, shaped, I suggest, as a federation of nation states. It will mean having flexible and democratic structures which allow for regular adaptation without going through the heavy process of an intergovernmental conference. Last December in Nice the heads of state and government recognised the need to improve and to monitor the democratic legitimacy and transparency of the Union and its institutions. The purpose was to bring these institutions closer to the citizens of the member states. They called for a deeper and broader debate on the future of the European Union. All concerned are therefore encouraging wide-ranging discussions with interested parties including representatives of national parliaments, those reflecting public opinion such as political, economic and academic representatives, and representatives of society at large such as political parties, trade unions, associations and religious groups.

At Nice four specific areas were identified for examination by a convention. The first is the role of national parliaments in the European architecture – the Cathaoirleach is very familiar with this subject. Some member states such as the UK, Denmark and Sweden already have parliamentary scrutiny of draft Community legislation before adoption. This issue was addressed in the report of the constitutional review group of 1996 on which I had the honour to serve.

The second area to be examined is the simplification of the treaties. This is encompassed in the general aim of bringing Brussels closer to the citizen. It includes changes such as the simplification of legal texts, an appropriate level of decision making and using governance mechanisms to their best effect. This is something that could lead to the drafting of a constitution for Europe, to which I will return later.

The third area to be looked at is the status of the Charter of Fundamental Rights proclaimed at Nice. This should involve a clearer identification of those rights which could usefully be recognised as genuinely fundamental. The fourth area to be scrutinised concerns a clearer demarcation of the powers exercised by the European Union and the member states. Together with the role of national parliaments this issue is politically one of those most immediately necessary. The starting point for this exercise is Article 5 of the Treaty of Rome. This article states that the Community must act, within certain limits – the limits of the powers conferred on it by the treaty – in accordance with the principles of subsidiarity and proportionality. Most Community competencies are shared between the European Union and the member states.

We are not starting this exercise from the beginning. To pick up on my analogy, the train is already well down the line. What we are seeking to achieve for the future is that the train takes the correct track and stops at the appropriate stations. There is, however, no ready-made railway map for the future. We must construct our own unique constitutional model, setting out clearly who is responsible for what and how the responsibilities of member states and the Community's responsibilities interlink. The political responsibilities should, as a matter of fundamental importance, be set out in a manner that is comprehensible for citizens.

May we have copies of the Commissioner's speech?

I believe there are copies available. They are being circulated.

I hope the Laeken convention will be firmly set in train by the Heads of Government and State meeting in Laeken next month. The composition of this convention is likely to be largely based on elected representation, with two members of the national parliaments of each member state, one representative of each Government, 16 Members of the European Parliament and one representative of the Commission. This will give a total of 62 members, including 46 representatives of Parliament. Candidate countries will be fully associated. The Committee of the Regions and the Economic and Social Committee will be represented also.

The convention will meet from the beginning of next year to prepare for future reforms, and it must also seek to establish a link between work on reform and the expectations of society at large. Representatives of the regions and society generally must be fully involved and must help to define what the European Union is to become. The convention must listen to those expectations, say how it views them and explain frankly and clearly why it accepts or rejects proposals that are the product of grassroots discussions. In a wider context, the convention will have to meet the expectations of citizens. Often, quite rightly, they stress that the European Union should be effective in implementing policies they consider necessary. On the other hand, they express doubts and anxieties with regard to the European project, but surveys show that they want European answers, even above and beyond what is possible or necessary.

Given the background I have sketched, I believe the convention should have as broad an approach as is necessary to satisfy our citizens' concerns – for example, a Europe equipping itself better to meet the challenges of globalisation or to handle international crises, such as those that have confronted us since 11 September, and a Europe that is more consistent in its economic and employment policy. The Declaration of Laeken will establish the guidelines and raise the questions that will enable this to be done.

An important function of the convention should be to establish clear, simple and permanent tools for the treaties to adapt in the future according to needs as they arise. This could involve agreement on a fundamental text that will form the constitutional basis of the European Union. All necessary ancillary texts could then be approved through a simplified procedure not requiring repeated ratification. Of course, any change to the fundamental text would require full ratification.

Europe should be wary of concentrating all its efforts on its institutions and should break the never-ending cycle of reviewing its structures and operation. The Treaty of Maastricht made provision for the reforms of Amsterdam and, in turn, the Amsterdam treaty bequeathed us the Treaty of Nice. This non-stop activity suggests a real sense of collective dissatisfaction. We would have a better Europe for the citizens if we managed to bring about one reform with clear objectives and parameters.

The European Union now has the opportunity, perhaps for the first time, to reflect on a number of fundamental questions – what it wishes to become, the repercussions of doubling its size and how it can maintain the momentum of its founders as well as the unity required by the unfolding new international dimension. We need to strike the right balance of shared power between the member states, which will reflect national identities and interests, and the European Union, which will represent the shared interests of all Europeans. The European Commission has a key role in mediating the interests of all member states. This is particularly important in respect of smaller member states to ensure their interests are fully taken into account in the development of policy and legislation.

The European Union of the future will not come into being without the support of its citizens and the commitment of its national political leaders. It is true that the crisis of political legitimacy is making itself felt throughout political life. Turn-out at national, local and European elections is declining. In many member states political parties are emerging which are challenging the democratic foundations on which our societies are built.

People have different aspirations and different ambitions in Europe and for Europe. At present not all the member states want to adopt the euro. Some member states are not members of NATO. Not all want joint arrangements for defence with the same degree of commitment. Not all the member states have the same views on the issues of asylum and immigration. The treaties reflect these differing national perspectives. This shows that Europe has a flexibility to design common policies while accommodating real concerns of member states. While member states may clearly wish to retain competence in certain fields closely linked to sovereignty, we need to clarify to what extent the EU should be involved in, for example, military, social or taxation issues. On abortion, for example, there is no reason there should be an EU initiative, despite what some people claim.

Possible Union involvement in other fields of competence may well be difficult to define. For example, the field of justice and home affairs is closely linked to national sovereignty. However, the fight against cross-border crime or an efficient immigration policy necessarily requires co-ordinated actions at EU level. The role of national parliaments will be crucial in building the right connections. If Europe is to be more tangible than ever before, citizens and parliamentarians have to play a bigger role at European level.

The subject of the role of the national parliaments is not new and those who negotiated the Maastricht and Amsterdam treaties will recall the debates which led to declarations and then a special protocol being drawn up on the role of national parliaments. What is worth highlighting, however, is the passion and level of detail with which various leading European politicians are now tackling this issue. This amounts to an inquiry into the democratic legitimacy of our system. The steady expansion of the powers of the European Parliament may not be enough to address the certain lack of legitimacy associated with our institutions.

There are three avenues which are seriously worth exploring. First, no doubt national parliaments need to play a more active part in monitoring European affairs. To exercise this role, it seems the national parliaments could have greater input to national positions when the Council exercises its legislative powers. I believe in the value of an early warning system for national lawmakers and this approach would be the most tangible expression of this principle. At any rate, it is important to ensure that the national parliaments are as well informed as possible. This is, of course, the responsibility of the member states and, indeed, is one of the reasons I am here today.

Second, there is a need to improve the way national parliaments are involved in shaping European fundamental texts. As I mentioned earlier, this will be done this time by means of a convention. Finally, we have to think about the exercise of European legislative power. The national legislative body will gain respect if European laws focus on general objectives and leave as much leeway as possible on implementation. This means respecting the principles of subsidiarity and proportionality and making room for national parliaments. However, in special circumstances where technical issues may be involved, directly applicable regulations may be more appropriate.

We also need to identify more clearly the legislative role of the Council of Ministers. The decision making role of the Council is likely to remain an important element of the Union's institutional architecture. Improving the way the Council operates falls into the category of essential reform. Various ideas have been floated in various quarters, one of which is to appoint specific Ministers of European affairs regularly meeting in Brussels to ensure coherence in all legislation. This could help strengthen interministerial co-ordination within each member state and facilitate a better involvement of national parliaments. It could also ensure that each government takes greater political responsibility for decisions adopted by the Council. Regardless of the means chosen, the key issue is not to lose sight of the objective. Moreover, the European Council itself should become more focused on issues of principle and get less bogged down in the detail of specific issues. Unless this happens we are in constant danger of paralysis.

The Commission has often voiced its desire to expand the legislative role of the European Parliament, which represents the people of Europe. In the institutional triangle Parliament ought to play its full part on equal terms with the Council by representing the member states and the Commission, which in turn represents the European public interest. We must remember the very special role conferred upon the Commission by the current system. In reinforcing that role we need to reflect on how the Commission can be given greater popular legitimacy. One suggestion is the election of the Commission President.

These institutions should be examined with a view to consolidating the institutional triangle of Parliament, Council and Commission. The Union method should also be strengthened because it has been proven to be effective. The Union method can surprise and irritate because it works. It surprises by proposing legislation that is innovative and it irritates by taking court actions against those who fail to live up to their promises.

This method has worked in a highly satisfactory way for the Internal Market for goods and in terms of the free movement of persons and capi tal. Business is benefiting greatly from the European open market and consumers have greater choice. The Union method has also worked for the common currency which will become a reality across almost all Europe in only 47 days. These policies help to create a unified Europe rather than a standardised one while demonstrating solidarity. On the other hand, for some member states the issue of transferring foreign policy to the Community pillar is quite simply a non-starter. Any steps in this direction could prompt them to act outside the European Union's institutional structures. The EU needs to be vigilant against external challenges. In matters of trade the USA is an important partner. It is essential, however, that trade negotiations are conducted by the Union as a whole to strengthen our position and to guarantee a better outcome.

Another threat to Europe would be certain bilateral co-operations on political matters. This has been the case recently with countries such as the UK, Germany and France and that has been a cause of concern for smaller member states. A strong Commission fully supporting its President is an effective counterweight to emerging inter-governmentalism.

Ireland can represent, and often does represent, a model for Europe to follow. Ireland has succeeded in encouraging very many foreign companies to establish bases here. The country is often cited in Europe as a model, not just because of its economic advantages. Multinational companies find Ireland attractive for its efficient, flexible administration and for its capacity for speedy response. We are all well aware of the benefits Ireland has reaped since accession in 1973. That year our exports of goods and services accounted for 37% of gross national product. Almost 30 years later we are exporting just over 110% of GNP. Britain, our traditional export market, accounts for only 20% of exports, whereas the rest of Europe accounts for over 40%. Would this type of transformation have been possible without tariff free, unimpeded access to the Single Market? Would it have been possible without EU Structural Fund assistance? Would Ireland have had the strength to break with sterling in 1979 without the support of the Union? Twenty years later, could one envisage the Irish pound existing as a separate currency from the euro? I think not.

Sovereignty is a very difficult concept to define precisely. Certainly it involves the free giving of allegiance by citizens to a state and that state acting in the interests of its citizens on that basis. It also involves the exercise of self-determination. These are visceral concepts as we know only too well in the context of Northern Ireland. In many respects the arrangements set out in the Good Friday Agreement borrow very heavily from the Union method, including as they do intergovernmental co-operation, North-South bodies, the Council of the Isles and devolved administration. These are heavily influenced by the sharing of sovereignty in a balanced and agreed way.

What does sovereignty mean in the modern-day, interdependent world we inhabit? We have learned to share certain aspects of sovereignty. Even on the deeply historical "national question", the Irish people have foregone their constitutional territorial claim on Northern Ireland, but they did this in the context of the referendum on the Good Friday Agreement – something they saw as understandable, of benefit and manifestly fair. It is in such circumstances that I see people being capable of sharing sovereignty, that is, if they understand the issue and feel they have a personal stake in it. This is the challenge we face in reaching out to our citizens in the European Union.

As a starting point, being sovereign should imply understanding the governing rules. I believe strongly in the need to clarify and simplify our fundamental texts. I believe this in spite of the undoubted complexity of treaties stemming from the various exceptions and derogations granted to certain member states or from the co-existence of Community and intergovernmental procedures. Also, as regards the national ratification process, it ought to be possible to reserve the formal procedure for the most fundamental amendments of our treaties. I favour making provision for a simplified procedure for minor amendments. I mentioned earlier the idea of giving such a power to the convention, in bringing forward a distinction between a constitutional text and ancillary texts.

This would be a significant change, but the question has to be posed. The question of powers and responsibilities brings to light various deficiencies in our method of decision making. However, in entering into such a debate, which I consider to be legitimate and necessary, a few points need to be borne in mind. First, Europe is not a state. Everyone in Europe is in agreement in condemning the prospect, or rather the myth, of a European superstate. Let us therefore avoid proposing for the European Union models copied from the practice of federal states, because the building of Europe is actually the building of a sort of hybrid community of peoples and states committed to diversity and the identity of their nations.

Second, the relative flexibility of the European Union's treaties should be preserved to facilitate subsequent stages in the development of Europe. This is a duty for generations to come. Can we, therefore, draw up a list of what the European Union should never do and which should consequently remain within the exclusive competence of the states? That would, on the whole, be better than adopting the restrictive list of our joint actions, but lists, whether negative or positive, are liable to become obsolete quickly.

Third, the diversity of national systems, pro tected by the principle of institutional autonomy, must be taken into account. Not all states are organised in the same way and each administers its territory as it sees fit. As I said earlier, Ireland is making a great contribution in Europe – as an economic model and as an alliance-builder with other countries, in particular with the so-called big member states. Its role will be even bigger after the next enlargement when it will be among the wealthiest member states.

Europe is not an edifice of big against small member states. It is, rather, a community of interests better served when pooled. International trade, third world development issues and competition policy spring immediately to mind in this context. Let us take international trade as an example. The World Trade Organisation is, as I speak, completing its work on launching a new round of trade negotiations in Doha in Qatar. In this context, we in Ireland find it very important to ensure that the interests of the less developed countries are taken care of at international level. In discussions with world powers, only the Community can be heard and conduct a policy favourable to these countries.

Another example of how Irish interests are better preserved through participation in the European process is in competition policy. By keeping in check the power of large multinational companies, rules on competition and mergers are essentially applied for the benefit of consumers. While some member states could easily resist the power of these big companies, only an authority representing the 15 member states can impose this in respect of consumers' interests. My area of responsibility also underlines the added value brought by Community action. There is a need for strong and efficient food safety measures and robust consumer protection. BSE, foot and mouth disease and the health issues we have had to face in recent times could not be dealt with only at national level. A European response is necessary. We are proud to have made a major contribution to addressing these challenging issues.

I have covered a lot of ground. Let me attempt to draw some conclusions. The debate upon which we are embarking concerning the future of the Union is vital for every man, woman and child in Ireland and throughout the Union. Unless we succeed in shaping a Union which captures our imagination and fulfils our dreams, we are on the road to nowhere. My famous train will simply run out of steam. The opportunity must now be seized to put our stamp on the future direction of the European Union.

Many of those who are no longer captivated by the ideals of ever closer integration fear with some legitimacy that the project lacks direction. As soon as they see one intergovernmental conference finished, more ideas for another one start emerging. Understandably, this causes anxiety and fuels suspicion about what is going on. Imagine if the Irish Constitution was to be amended radically every few years. How could people keep up with such developments? How would they know to what they were subscribing their allegiance?

The time has now come to put the procession of intergovernmental conferences behind us once and for all. The post-Laeken process now gives us all the chance to do this. Perhaps we will see proposals emerging within a few years for some type of constitution for Europe. Perhaps such a constitution or treaty would fix the broad issues of major importance for us all. This would give us our guiding light, our beacon of certainty, our unifying force. This type of development would leave subsidiary issues to be dealt with through the normal process of legislation.

I am convinced that, if shaping the future direction involves us all and we all feel we are being listened to, we can construct a powerful, dynamic and peaceful system of governance for Europe which sets clear levels of power and responsibility for the centre, national capitals and parliaments, the regions and individual citizens. The debate initiated in Ireland, partly as a result of the Nice referendum and the debate on the future of Europe called for by the Nice treaty, is welcome and timely. In many respects, perhaps it is a debate in which we all should have engaged before. We now have the chance and must exercise that opportunity vigorously. I see the opportunity to lay down a new track for Europe into the future. I hope Members will react to the issues I have raised and look forward to a lively exchange of views.

I thank the Commissioner, who has kindly agreed to take some questions from Members. I will proceed on the basis of allowing a number of questions before calling on the Commissioner to respond.

I welcome the Commissioner to the Upper House of the Oireachtas. As far as we are concerned, this is a mould-breaking day because, to my knowledge, no Irish Commissioner has addressed either House of the Oireachtas until today. I had the great honour and privilege of serving on the legislation committee with David Byrne in his position as Attorney General. Our experience was that we were both able to work together to formulate and advance the business of both Houses successfully. Ireland and Europe are well served by our Commissioner who is a dynamic, energetic person committed to serving the people of Europe, especially the Irish people who are extremely proud of his achievements and on which I congratulate him.

As the Commissioner is no doubt aware, the health and safety of the Irish people are of great concern given the range and scale of activity at the Sellafield nuclear plant. In that context, has the Sellafield nuclear plant ever been fully and comprehensively investigated by the European Union? If so, does the result of such an investigation warrant action on the part of the European Union in terms of having the plant closed down?

I also welcome the Commissioner and compliment him on the job he is doing in Europe. He has many fine qualities, among which are his superb presentational skills. We saw proof of the latter this morning when he managed, in a short period, to cover most of the major issues, particularly those which affect us in the aftermath of the Nice referendum.

For someone who has long advocated greater integration and sees Ireland's place at the heart of Europe, these are bleak times. There is an air of uncertainty abroad and no guarantee that the next referendum on the Nice treaty will be carried. There is also no guarantee that Ireland will not make what I and others see as a catastrophic decision which would greatly affect not alone our national interests, but also deprive Europe of one of the forces that has given it momentum in the 30 years since our accession. It is worth noting that the major parties in both Houses have been wholehearted in their commitment to Europe during the period.

We have reached a dangerous stage. I wish to raise two of the points to which the Commissioner adverted. He raised many points, but I wish to deal with only two and perhaps seek further elaboration in respect of them. The first is the role of the Commission. The Commissioner was clear about the key role the Commission plays and highlighted the fact that it has been an enormous force in aiding the transformation of our economy and those of many other countries and that it has played a leadership role. In that context, however, a number of questions immediately arise. For example, why is the Commission held in such low regard? Why is there no affection for it? Why is it seen as being remote and why is the good news it has to offer taken for granted by people who perhaps are more likely to complain about what it has not done or about its interference in certain areas? Is this just a question of how the Commission's work affects us? I do not believe so. I know this question has obviously exercised the minds of the Commissioner and his colleagues in Europe.

There is a major problem in the fact that a body which has so much good news, etc., to give finds itself in a position where people are either indifferent or hostile towards it. Why is it that in the debate on the Nice treaty all of the passion seemed to be on the side of those who did not want the referendum to pass? Is there a case for a greater degree of leadership, up-front commit ment and passion from those charged with running the Commission?

The second issue to which I wish to refer is the point the Commissioner made about national parliaments. As far as this Parliament is concerned, he was far too polite. Our treatment of European issues during the past 30 years has been a disgrace. We are little better off now than we were when the old Joint Committee on Secondary Legislation was established in 1972. We must shoulder a great deal of the blame for the low turnout at the referendum and the failure of the "Yes" camp to achieve the desired result.

The Joint Committee on European Affairs works very hard, but is seriously and grossly under-resourced. Senator O'Toole and I visited Stormont last week and saw at first hand the facilities to which every committee in the Assembly has access. The total resources of all the committees of these Houses would probably only match those of one committee at Stormont. The message for us is that if we want to ensure European affairs are treated seriously, our committees must be resourced to the level at which they can operate properly.

Senators

Hear, hear.

Second, there is the question of this House. My party and I have long advocated that this should be the European House of the Irish Parliament. Members of the European Parliament should have right of access to and right of audience in the Seanad and be allowed to speak on European issues. There should be standard, set times for debates on Europe. People such as the Commissioner or his top officials should visit the House on a regular basis to brief us and thereby, through the medium of television, brief the Irish people on how issues are progressing and any difficulties which may arise. Unless we have this constant interaction, the message will not get across and the issues will not be addressed.

We have a great deal to learn, as parliamentarians, from working closely with members of other European parliaments, especially the smaller parliaments, because we all have a great deal in common in dealing with the Commission, the Council and our own Governments. I thank the Commissioner because he has started an important debate today. I look forward to his observations on the two points I have raised.

I, too, would like to respond supportively to the Commissioner being here and his thoughtful address. I would like to bring it down to ground level, as it were, because what he said on the structure is very important. I would like to ask him a personal question. Are his fellow Commissioners aware that he is the only Commissioner who cannot travel home by train and the only Commissioner who cannot get back to his homeland without flying or going by boat? Do they recognise we have special and different needs from others? This is the only island state in the Community.

In terms of where the Commissioner stands, the anti-competitiveness and the fact Irish people now see the stress in the airline industry being used by the European Commission to pursue its agenda for a smaller number of carriers in Europe, that changes the attitude towards the Commission and, as Senator Manning said, it immediately deteriorates as regards how people see and engage with it. People cannot understand – perhaps the Commissioner will explain it to us – how the American Government can make tens of billions of pounds available to support its airline industry. We are supposedly on the same playing pitch. We, in this country, have a particular strategic interest, as the Commissioner will be aware, as will others. I do not want to get involved in that debate now because the Commissioner knows it as well as I do, but I would like to hear from him on it.

In terms of budgetary policy, does the Commissioner's fellow Commissioners understand that until such time as convergence is achieved in all sorts of areas, especially in infrastructural and other areas, the idea of having an inflexible budgetary policy will not take account of the fact that budgetary policy will always have an asymmetric impact on our island, the Irish economy, and that, therefore, there needs to be a flexibility which we have not seen so far? I would like to hear the Commissioner's view on that issue also.

Does the Commissioner support the view outlined by Senator Manning, but which I will put in perhaps sharper terms, that this is just fuelling euro-scepticism in this country and creating something that has never been seen before? Will the Commissioner respond to this?

A section in the Commissioner's presentation was headed, A Federation of Nation States. It is an issue in which I am very interested. Will the Commissioner explore what exactly he means by this? It is not completely clear in the script and I think he shied away from it. He gave it a headline to get us interested and then made sure he said nothing that might be quoted in tomorrow morning's newspapers. In the very last days of the last British election Monsieur Jospin helped things along wonderfully with his famous comment on a fédération of independent sovereign states. I have been trying ever since to work out whether the translation of fédération allows for confederation as well as federation. I would like the Commissioner to indicate his views on the difference because there is a significant difference between a confederation and a federation. Perhaps one is less threatening than the other.

Does the Commissioner agree that this type of engagement with parliamentarians at Com mission level is crucial and that people need to see Commissioners getting down and dirty, as it were, with politicians in nation states? We are unclean here and the Commissioner has to be part of that also. We need an active interactive engagement. I would like to hear the Commissioner's views because we have been at great pains to get Commissioner Solbes to come here to discuss budgetary policy but to no avail so far. If he is not prepared to come and talk to us publicly where the people we represent can be seen to bring their views to the leadership of Europe, then that sense of isolation will not be bridged. These are the types of issues at which we are looking in the European forum. This is the kind of place in which we need reassurances from the Commissioner.

I, too, welcome the Commissioner to the House. It is an historic day. To continue from what Senator O'Toole said, it is important that Europe is involved in our national institutions and our national Parliament and we should support any mechanism that can be devised to ensure that happens. It would be great to have all the Commissioners here at one time or other in the course of every year so that they could be questioned on their activities and that the divide between the European institutions and the national parliaments can be bridged to some extent.

I welcome the thrust of the Commissioner's speech and the honesty with which he says that the European Union now has the opportunity, perhaps for the first time, to reflect on a number of fundamental questions, what it wishes to become; the repercussions of doubling its size and how it can maintain the momentum of its founders. These are fundamental questions which should have been addressed in an appropriate manner in terms of various countries, such as Ireland, before the Nice treaty was put to a vote. We have to find a mechanism to ensure we do not have a situation again where there is a huge deficit of information and such hostility builds up that the institutions and the principles on which Europe was founded could be in danger.

I wish to put two questions to the Commissioner. The Commissioner could be the last or the second last Commissioner automatically appointed for this country. The proposal was that once the European Union was enlarged to 27 member states there would no longer be automatic commissionerships for any country. In the context of that decision, will he assess for us – he has not addressed it in his contribution – the value of the collegial aspect, which apparently was the reason the decision was taken, as distinct from the importance of having a Commissioner for each individual country and how that might be reflected in the operation of the European Union?

In relation to his brief, health, safety and consumer affairs, he referred to the importance of Europe operating in the context of responding to international crises. The greatest international crisis for a long time was on 11 September and it has been responded to in different forms. One of the fallouts from it is the arrival of bio-terrorism, that is the scourge of the United States in the form of anthrax powder which is being distributed extremely easily. It appears there is easy access to it and that it can be easily distributed throughout the country. Will the Commissioner give the House an indication of the steps he is taking to ensure something of this nature does not arrive on the European mainland? There could be many more dangerous forms such as smallpox which would be easier to distribute and would become far more deadly. What steps are being taken to control the availability of such substances?

Probably the greatest threat to the lives and health of this nation is Sellafield. The Commissioner stressed the importance of pooling our sovereignty and of big nations not exercising any undue power over smaller nations. We have a big neighbour who in the midst of an international crisis decided to commission a MOX facility. This is seen as an unfriendly gesture by a neighbouring country. While that country is gung-ho in the pursuit of terrorism in Afghanistan, it is leaving a timebomb on our doorstep which could have enormous implications for the lives of everybody on this island. What steps can be taken under the Commissioner's brief or by the European Union to deal with a threat of that nature? It seems we are virtually helpless in trying to take positive action to counteract it.

I join with the leaders of the groups in welcoming Commissioner Byrne and thank him for his wide ranging and informative address, which dealt in some detail with the general philosophy of the European ideal. I am particularly pleased, as are others, that it is an Irishman who has come to address us and, on a parochial level, I am pleased that he is a past pupil of Newbridge College—

(Interruptions.)

Senator Dardis, without interruption.

I think it is a matter for genuine celebration.

And it is now on the record.

At the heart of the Commissioner's address is the question of sovereignty and the need for clarity as to how it is exercised. The Commissioner did clarify that in some detail.

I have listened to contributions to the recently established Forum for Europe and it seems there is a perception that we, as a State, do not have an input into decisions. The Commissioner spoke of the triangular architecture of the Commission, Parliament and Council and pointed out that we can bring our ideas to these bodies. However, there is a perception that everything emanates from Brussels rather than being contributed to by the people. It is a two-way street. It is also the perception that our views are represented on the Council when matters are debated but do not seem to have a genuine input into the basic legislation introduced. I would be interested in the Commissioner's views on that and the question of a democratic deficit in relation to the input of the citizen.

This remoteness is copperfastened when members of the Council visit us, stay in exclusive hotels and eat good dinners, sweeping in and sweeping out in their large motorcars or helicopters. This reinforces the view of citizens that Members are ‘over there' and not part of what we are. I do not think there is an information deficit as the Commissioner suggests. There is a deluge of information but there is a comprehension deficit. The information is framed in language that the citizen does not understand. Again this reinforces the perception of remoteness.

The concept of a federation of nation states stood out in the Commissioner's address. It was qualified later by his observations on federalism and I was reassured by it. This was central to the debate on the Treaty of Nice and I would be interested in the Commissioner's response to Senator O'Toole's question in this regard. The important question regarding the institutional architecture of the EU will become fraught in circumstances where there is a large membership.

Another question arising from that, which was at the heart of the Treaty of Nice debate, was that of qualified majority voting and the use of the veto. It is not a view I subscribe to but there is a fear that smaller states would be swamped. I believe that a coalition of smaller states can be very effective and will be even more effective in an enlarged Union when countries like Slovenia, Latvia and Estonia are involved.

There seem to be contradictory signals coming from the world trade talks in recent days as to whether there has or has not been progress. We have a central interest in the questions of demolishing tariff barriers and export subsidies and, on a global level, our commitment to the developing world. Some people seem to be saying that we are not going far enough in this direction. The Commissioner spoke about strengthening our position and I am interested to know how that can be achieved within the WTO and what his hopes are for the organisation.

If my speech was wide ranging, the questions have succeeded in matching it. I will do my best to answer this series of very important questions. Senator Cassidy asked me about Sellafield. I am aware that this is an issue of considerable concern in Ireland. Sellafield was last inspected by the EU in 1993. The responsibility for this rests with my colleague, Commissioner Margot Wallstrolm, the Commissioner for the Environment. She is considering whether it is necessary to have a further inspection at this stage and I am in discussions with her on this issue. We have had one or two conversations about it and my people have been talking to her people about it. I know how deeply this issue is felt here. Commissioner Wallstrolm will be visiting Ireland on 28 or 29 November. No doubt there will be people who will ask questions in relation to this issue and I am sure she will be able to respond. I will convey to her that this issue has been raised by Senators and the likelihood that it will be raised by others on her visit.

Senator Manning asked about the role of the Commission itself. He makes the point that it is a force for transformation and asks why we do not get more from it and why there is not greater acceptability of it. This is a complex question. There is a feeling that the Commission is remote and that there is no affection for it. That is probably, although not always, the case by and large. If there is so much good news, why can we not get benefits from the consequences of that? There is a number of reasons for this. Traditionally, when government ministers visit Brussels, either in the context of Council of Ministers or bilateral conversations with Commissioners on issues of concern to them, they return with either good news or bad news. If the news is bad, the minister will blame the Commissioners; if it is good, they praise themselves. This means that we are not always supported by government ministers in the Commission, even though there is a two-way process between the Commissioners and the ministers involved.

We recently brought forward a proposal in relation to dioxin in fish. It was an important proposal for the protection of consumers and for reasons of health and food safety. Some member states, particularly the Nordic member states – who are, by reputation and image, at the forefront of food safety – had difficulties with the proposal. I will not go into details but they made a good case for derogations for a short period of time. We granted those derogations but I was not overwhelmed by gratitude when we did. I am not in the business for the sake of gratitude but it was sold by those member states on the basis that the derogation was a success achieved by the government rather than a response from the Commission.

We have to do more to sell what we do and to become more visible. It is an obvious physical fact that there are only 20 of us. There are 626 Members of the European Parliament and therefore it is more difficult for us to be visible all the time. A unit has been set up in the Commission, comprising a group of Commissioners under the leadership of my colleague, António Vitorina, to address the question of effective communication with the public, from which I hope we will get some good results.

A press conference is held every day at the Commission at 12 o'clock. The spokespersons on the portfolios in the news at a particular time are available to answer questions. I am present quite regularly, as normally is one of my spokespersons. Any questions asked by the press have to be addressed in a full and complete way. In many respects the systems are in place, but the Senator is right in saying that for some reason there does not seem to be a good result from all this activity. There is a willingness and a desire to make sure the policies we are pursuing and the issues we are considering are not only made available to the public, but discussed with it.

In this context we must bear in mind that it is the responsibility of Commissioners to be answerable to the European Parliament rather than to the parliaments of individual member states, which we seek and are happy to visit the parliaments. I have done this before, although I have not addressed a plenary session. I have addressed committees. To a large extent it has become the duty of Members of Parliament not only to question Commissioners in the context of the normal relationship between an executive and a legislature – the surveillance and monitoring of which are also important in the European Union context – but to convey the responses to the questions posed to Commissioners to their electorate. I am not fully convinced that that part of their job gets the same degree of attention as the surveillance role of the work of the Commission. That is a matter that might be addressed.

Senator Manning mentioned the role of national parliaments being involved more closely with European affairs. I mentioned briefly in my address that this was considered in the context of the Constitution review group in 1996. I examined it again last night. We said that Parliament should be involved and even identified Senators as having a role. Certainly that was a view I held at that time, but I do not know if it was written down.

Parliaments have a role in reviewing legislation to be transposed into national law. Directives have to be transposed into the laws of member states. Parliaments have a function, not only in that area, but in the contact Ministers have before they visit Councils. They are required to visit a week or two in advance of meetings to identify the issues and the line a Minister is taking. A number of member states, including the United Kingdom, Denmark and Sweden, do this. I have appeared before the committee in Sweden and it works very effectively. This is something that would be worthwhile instigating to bring national parliaments closer to the workings of the institutions of the European Union. Members of the European Parliament can be invited to a plenary session of the Seanad or parliamentary committees. I have appeared before parliamentary committees of this House and in many member states of the European Union, as have my colleagues. That is as it should be, but MEPs might also be drawn more into the process.

Senator O'Toole referred to the fact that I am the only Commissioner who cannot travel by train to my member state. He is probably right, particularly since the bridge was built between Denmark and Sweden. My colleague, Commissioner Erkki Liikanen, who lives in Finland would have a long trip by train.

Nonetheless.

Nonetheless we can joke. He would probably need to use a week of his holidays to achieve that. This is an issue of which people in the European Union are aware. I am sure the Senator raised this question in the context of the problems relating to Aer Lingus.

I had a number of discussions with my colleague, Vice President Loyola de Palacio, who is responsible for this issue and she is conscious of this question. She is also conscious of the fact that a major proportion of Aer Lingus's traffic is with the United States and of the state aids and supports put in place in the United States arising from the events of 11 September for the benefit of the airline industry there. It must be borne in mind that member states and their Governments made the state aids rules, not the Commission. This comes back to what Senator Manning said. To some extent we end up having to implement the legislation put in place at the request of the Council of Ministers and when we do so we are the ones who bear the responsibility for the bad news. These state aid rules are in place and have to be applied in a non-discriminatory manner, but account must be taken of the factors the Senator raised. In the event of there being any area of discretion or margin of appreciation in coming to conclusions as to how to best respond to these problems, the types of considerations the Senator addressed such as the island status of Ireland must be taken into account.

Similarly on the question of budgetary policy, a matter for which I do not have responsibility, we must be careful in the euro zone to ensure there is budgetary discipline, otherwise we will have serious problems in relation to the status, standing, credibility and reputation of the euro. My colleague, Pedro Solbes, takes this aspect of his job very seriously. We have to go with the stability pact in place and the requirement that there will not be a deficit greater than 3%. While some of the larger member states are not exactly in difficulty in terms of this issue, nonetheless they have to be more vigilant about it, as has Ireland. This has not been lost on the people.

On the matter of the federation of nation states, one Senator asked the difference between "federation" and "confederation". The classical difference is that in a federation power is in the centre while in a confederation there is a regional situation. The word "federation" means different things to people. I understand what the Senator means by it, but the federal structural in Germany is quite different from the federal structure in the United States. The federal structure in the United States is as the Senator classically described it. The federal structure in Germany is more of a confederation than a federation, but called a federation. Similarly in Spain, power is devolved to 16 or 17 regions. I understand the concept of a federation of nation states to be closer to what the Senator understands it to be than what is traditionally understood to be the concept of confederation rather than federation. However, it depends on the area in question.

If the powers devolved to the competence of the Commission were not devolved in the way they have been, in that, if parliaments of the member states were involved in the decision making process, I do not know if we would make the type of progress we need to make in those important areas. The process would be fractured. Enormous pressures would be brought to bear in areas of importance such as trade and competition by the individual member states. If parliament was involved in the process, there would be even further pressure that would fracture the process. This area, more so than others, is one where there is a more federal type of situation.

To some extent it depends on what is agreed to be transferred to the competences of the Commission. This is done in an intergovernmental conference arrangement where each member state has a veto. I am not convinced that the way we did it in Nice was the right way to go about it. That is the reason a convention has been put in place to try to achieve a more broader discussion and to bring more stakeholders into the game, including Members of the European Parliament, parliaments of member states and other stakeholders, as we did with the drafting of the Charter on Fundamental Rights. There is a precedent for doing so again. If at the end of the process, member states agree with the other stakeholders that these are the powers that we will devolve in an exclusive competence to the European Union to be exercised and implemented by the Commission, that is the way it will be. Whereas I understand that people are concerned about decisions made in that context, we must always get back to the origin of this. This is what we have agreed to do, and what the Commissioners are undertaking is what they have been asked to carry out. That must always be taken into account.

On engagement with the Commissioners, I fully agree with the Seanad on that, as do my colleagues who have spent much time visiting member states and addressing parliaments. I have done that in nearly all member states. I have met parliamentary committees either in the member state in question or when they came as a delegation to Brussels.

Senator Costello asked whether Com missioners should be questioned here. I stress that our answerability is to the European Parliament. Nonetheless, there should be contact with parliaments in member states and whereas an occasion like this is hugely important and valuable, perhaps more contact could be made in the context of parliamentary committees dedicated to particular issues. I have spoken to committees on agriculture, food safety and health issues, my area of responsibility, and my colleagues have done the same. I suspect that might be a model for the future.

The question as to whether I will be the last or second last Commissioner automatically appointed is raised in the context of the Nice treaty. What was said there was that on the arrival of the 27th member of the European Union, which I think is some distance away, there will be fewer Commissioners than member states, so I could be the 26th. That has not been decided. That will be decided in the context of a later discussion and it will also be decided with a veto, so Ireland will have its full say in relation to that. I have thought about that in the context of the Nice debate and it occurred to me that if there were 26 Commissioners and Ireland was chosen as the country not to have a Commissioner in the next Commission formed after the arrival of the 27th member, given that the length of the Commission is five years and that multiplied by 26 comes to 130 years, it would not be our turn for another 130 years. I am not so sure whether the Seanad is very agitated about that, but I am not.

At least the Commissioner learnt something in Newbridge.

It is important from a visibility point of view, but from a political point of view I am not sure it is. It is also important for each member state to have the maximum number of Commissioners. The Senator asked a question about the interplay between collegiality and the need to have somebody present from member states. Of course, we do not represent our member states. That would be completely wrong. On signing on, I signed a declaration to the effect that I will not take instructions from my member state – all of us signed that. That is the way things operate. At the same time we all know that if one comes from a particular member state, one has a feel and an understanding for matters relating to it. Members of the Seanad know this as well as I do. It is, therefore, important to have that reflected at the table because important decisions are taken there.

The other side of the argument is that, taken to its logical conclusion, one could have a small college of Commissioners who are totally separated from their member states and who operate strictly as a college. That is probably what the Senator was getting at in his question. In theory that is certainly the case and maybe over time it might evolve in that way, but it would take some time to get to that point. In considering this in the Commission in the context of our attitude to Nice, a number of us thought about this and there were a number of discussions on it. It crossed my mind that during what has become known as the beef war, where France and the UK had a difference of opinion about the importation of British beef into France, if we had, let us say, a college of ten or 12 Commissioners and there was neither a French nor a UK Commissioner at the table, acceptance of the decisions taken would have been much more problematic for the citizens of the member state most affected. That creates a political perception problem, particularly for smaller member states. This applies more to smaller member states than larger member states.

The visibility in terms of the role of the Commissioner at the Commission is an issue of considerable importance. A number of my colleagues accept that view – even some from the larger member states express that view. It is an informal view but a strong view in the Commission that there should be the maximum number of Commissioners. There will be more debate on that issue when the time comes.

In response to the question about 11 September, the Commissioners responded well to this. A General Council was held on 21 September when strong statements were made by the Council of Ministers and by the Commission. From my own point of view, I have been very heavily involved in this from the beginning. The Ghent European Council produced a statement requiring the Commission to respond to these issues. I have since visited the Center for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta, which is the foremost institution in the world in relation to communicable diseases and these kinds of issues. I also attended a G7 Plus meeting in Ottawa last week where the Secretary for Health from the United States and his equivalents from Canada, Mexico, Japan, France, Germany and Italy were present to discuss these issues. Our technical people at member state level and the Commission have met. The Ministers for health and I had a meeting about ten days ago on this. The Health Council will meet tomorrow to discuss this issue. There will be a conclusion from the Health Council and there will be a press conference, and information will be conveyed in that context.

To summarise, various networks for surveillance, particularly of communicable diseases, have been in place since 1998. There is also an early warning and response system network in place. They are my responsibility. There is a rapid response network for problems in relation to food and dangerous products. These will now be drawn together in conjunction with a further network that exists under the responsibility of my colleague, Commissioner Wallstrolm, the Commissioner for environment, a network on civil protection. We want to better co-ordinate these networks and work together with networks that exist in individual member states, of which there are many, to ensure that if there are problems on the horizon in any individual member state they are identified and the Commission and other member states will know about them in the shortest possible time.

In addition, I had a meeting yesterday with the chief executive officers of a number of pharmaceutical companies who have formed a task force to identify availability of vaccines and drugs, capacity for the production of drugs and emergency response to requests from the Commission or member states in relation to this. We are looking at the need to put in place a system for the stockpiling of vaccines and relevant drugs at Commission level to be available wherever an outbreak takes place, not just relying on the stockpiles that exist in individual member states where they may look after their own citizens, in circumstances where a member state may not be well endowed with drugs or vaccines.

We need to look at this at Union level and that is what we are doing. I will bring a communication to the Commission for discussion of the outcome of the 27 November talks. We are working at present on that with our people and with the pharmaceutical industry to ensure that we have the best possible systems in place for rapid response and for alerts, and to ensure the availability of such medicines as may be necessary to respond to issues like this that may arise. We are taking this very seriously. We are working very hard on it and we are bringing forward proposals. It is not just that we are responding to the events of 11 September. These networks such as the one on communicable disease were in place before 11 September. What we are doing now is examining the system, fine tuning it and adjusting it to make sure it will work in response to events that might arise similar to the issues that we are concerned about arising from 11 September.

I was asked about Sellafield and I may have answered that question.

My fellow countyman, Senator Dardis, mentioned the perception that states do not have an input into the decision making process of the European Union. Actually, 90% of the legislation and initiatives that go through the system are requested by the Council of Ministers or by the European Parliament. This is something that is not fully understood. The Commission has the treaty obligation and responsibility for initiation of policy but it is often triggered by reference to this kind of contact.

I agree that there does not appear to be the necessary delivery of information back to member states and citizens. I do not wish to appear critical but it is important that there are only 20 Irish members among the 620 members of the Parliament. We should not lose sight of this. It is their role to question Commissioners and, when they get answers, to convey those answers to their electorate. We do not strictly have constituents, although we take seriously the responsibility for conveying information to the public. I think we should do more.

As I said in reply to Senator Manning, we have press conferences every day and we are setting up a strategy to improve our communication with the public. People are genuinely aware that there is a problem in this area. Under President Prodi's responsibility we recently published a White Paper on governance which I would encourage the Members to read. It is a valuable lesson in how decision making is carried out, explaining how we go about our business, how we come to conclusions, how we develop policy into legislation and who should be involved. I hope we will make more progress on this issue. I have long been an advocate of simple language, particularly for legislation. It was also one of my hobby-horses as Attorney General. I believe we can all do better – short sentences and small words are best.

Development in world trade is important for Ireland. I referred earlier to some statistics showing that an enormous amount of what we produce is exported. The World Trade Organisation is of great importance. Given our size – Ireland contains 1% of the population of the European Union – we can have a greater influence on world trade development through the mechanism of the institutions of the European Union, particularly through the Commission where there is an exclusive competence in this area exercised by my colleague, Commissioner Pascal Lamy. All the concerns of the member states are taken into account. As I came here this morning I was told that there may be a conclusion but the outcome is not certain. Export subsidisation is certainly one of the issues of concern. Our trading partners, including the USA and the CAIRNS group, are very concerned about export subsidies. There are of course other forms of supports for agriculture that our trading partners sometimes tend to forget to put into the pool for discussion. My colleagues, Commissioners Lamy and Fischler, make sure these issues are on the table whenever the European Union is unduly pressurised on export subsidies.

The commitment to the developing world is also something we have discussed. Commissioner Lamy introduced a proposal earlier this year, known as the Everything but Arms proposal, which effectively means that there is now the possibility of tarriff-free importation of everything but arms from identified and designated countries, including the very poorest of developing countries. This is an important development and is well appreciated by the countries who benefit. Curiously, those countries who are better-off than the selected countries and developing themselves considered it unfair discrimination against them. Sometimes when one feels one is moving in the right direction and producing good results there are spin-offs and side-effects that have to be addressed, which is what Commissioner Lamy is doing.

The analogy that the Commissioner made about the railway track is one that could be reversed. Once on a Seanad cam paign we came across a car crash. We pulled an American from the side of the road and she asked whether she was on the right road to Tralee. My companion said, "Yes, but you are going in the wrong direction." One must be careful when talking about being on the right or the wrong side.

The Commissioner has been very open in his address to the Seanad and in his answers to questions. The House has been addressed by other Commissioners who gave set piece responses which meant nothing. There is a democratic deficit emerging in Europe. It was emphasised here by the low turnout for the Nice referendum but it has also been demonstrated in every election throughout Europe over the last five or six years. There is a remoteness about the role of national parliaments and of the European Parliament, the Council of Ministers and the Commission. Nobody knows what they do except when they see the results. The Commissioner stated that there is a press conference every day.

Senator Manning mentioned the Joint Committee on Secondary Legislation which I was on from 1977 under the chairmanship of Mary Robinson. We received reams of stuff from Europe. I am now on the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and I have never had one communication from the Commission or from a Commissioner except when I asked for something. The Commissioner mentioned effective communication with the public. Surely there should be some communication with representatives of the public.

Those who gain most from the trade in arms are members of the European Union, some of which are probably the biggest exporters of arms apart from the USA. If poorer countries are allowed to export everything except arms to Europe tariff-free the European arms industry, which is a huge problem, will be built up. How many countries in Europe have signed up to international conventions on the storage and production of chemical weapons? What is Europe doing to make certain that the international convention is adhered to by bigger countries who are now suggesting that anthrax is being spread in the USA? How much anthrax is under the control of the American Government? How many biochemical weapons are under the control of the American Government and why has it not supported the international convention on their storage and production?

A huge number of questions could be asked here but I have been asked to be short. We get very little opportunity to discuss European or world affairs in the Seanad, which is not because the Leader does not allow us. I ask that Commissioner Byrne and his fellow Commissioners be more open with national parliaments and their committees. Equally, the Commissioner should suggest to the Council of Ministers that it be more open with us before it makes decisions that affect us all.

I join other Senators in welcoming the Commissioner to the House. He has shown that he can speak in an easy, communicable way, but also very honestly. He has also given us clear answers.

Senator O'Toole raised the issue of transport in terms of the problems with Aer Lingus. I would like to be more specific on the question of regional disparity. As a Senator from the mid-west, I hope there will not be regional disparity and in that regard echo the fears of Senators west of the Shannon. The message I would like the Commissioner to bring back to the appropriate Commissioner for regional affairs is that account must be taken of the problems of transport and linkage. Let me give an example. There are now no early morning flights to Dublin, or 10.15 p.m. night flight, to facilitate the small and multinational companies which have chosen to locate in the mid-west region because of the closeness of Shannon Airport. This means that a businessman or woman from the mid-west travelling to Paris – we no longer have a direct flight to Paris – will only have one and a half hours for a business meeting compared to at least eight or nine for his or her equivalent in Dublin. What does this say to business people in the mid-west and the west? As they stated at a major meeting the other night organised by IBEC, SFADCo and Aer Rianta, they will not locate west of the Shannon because it is not competitive for them to do so due to the difficulty in getting to their European meetings. That is a simple fact.

The Commissioner referred to an Irish model for Europe. While I understand our attractiveness in terms of our efficient and flexible administration and capacity for speedy response, I would have liked the Commissioner to raise the issue of transport because there will not be a speedy response west of the Shannon. People will not be able to travel to the European power houses, which is a major problem for people west of the Shannon in terms of the next time we vote in a referendum on the Nice treaty. It will be seen specifically as the European model not looking at the regions that are not part of the greater Dublin area. I have to state this repeatedly because the warning bells are ringing. If businessmen and women cannot get to their appropriate meetings, their companies will not locate west of the Shannon. That is what they are saying. They say that tourism interests are very much to the fore in making their case in terms of America, but their voices have not been heard. I hope the Commissioner will bring my concerns to the attention of the appropriate people.

I also welcome the Commissioner. This is a useful and excellent exercise, if I can call it that. There is no doubt that Ireland has benefited from Europe since its accession in 1973, but I am concerned about the warning from the European Court of Auditors, mentioned by the Commissioner in his address, that Ireland and other EU countries tolerate an unacceptable level of accounting errors when dealing with EU funds. It also said that all EU countries do not treat taxpayers' money from Europe with the same diligence shown to national corporate funds, and annual reports warned of problems with both Structural Funds and the Common Agricultural Policy for the seventh year in a row. Seven years is a very long time. If a farmer made an error in an application for area aid or a premium payment in one year, he would correct it.

Why do these accounting errors occur? Is it because of fraudulently based claims or simple accounting errors? These substantial errors are unacceptable and the penalties are severe. Why do the countries concerned not try to correct them and be more vigilant?

I welcome the Commissioner to the House. He could not have anticipated that his portfolio would become so active so quickly with the problems that have arisen in the area of food. Is his department of the Commission addressing the situation regarding the development of antibiotic resistant bacteria in many animal products? I bring this matter to his attention because it has become a serious issue in America where many animals are treated on a broad basis with antibiotics, and I do not just mean growth promoters. I read in a recent report that 80% of ground beef in America contains antibiotic resistant bacteria. That is a shocking figure, especially when they can show that infections in America are being caused by this bacteria. I have not seen anything of the same taking place in Europe, but, as a doctor, I monitor the situation carefully. Are we monitoring it on an international basis in Europe, and is the Commissioner's department ready to respond? It has been suggested in America that the treatment of animals by antibiotics in food and water should be stopped immediately. Have we examined this issue?

Senator Costello should be reassured regarding anthrax because there are hundreds of times more anthrax in many facilities throughout the United States than is available in Europe. It is very easy to obtain anthrax in America, but not here.

I did not stand on the previous occasion. I did not mean any discourtesy to the House, but perhaps I should stand now.

The Commissioner may sit down if he wishes.

All right. Senator Lanigan started his contribution by saying nobody knows what I do, but I hope I have done something to alleviate that problem this morning. On a serious level, it is important that we make sure there is good contact between those of us who work at European level and those working in member states. It is a two way street in that there is an obligation imposed on us to make sure that we make citizens aware of what we do. There is also a responsi bility on elected representatives in member states – Senator Manning may have touched on this – to inform themselves about what is happening at European level and seek to determine what are the issues going through the system. I realise this can be difficult in the sense that at a national level politicians in member states are more concerned about national issues, but my office is always responsive to queries made by elected representatives from member states. I have a rule that we respond to those queries quickly, and we do so. I am aware that my colleagues accept the same responsibility in answering these questions and respond quickly to any questions from members of parliament.

I accept the import of the Senator's criticism that not enough is being done in this area. There is a belief that those of us in Europe are in a remote place and that we do not have proper contact with people in terms of what is going on. This is something about which those of us in the Commission, and the European Parliament, are very concerned. I indicated that perhaps one of the ways we can address this is by having an elected President of the Commission, either by general franchise or elected by members of parliament. We are examining many different issues and our White Paper on governance addresses it. It is an issue of particular concern, but I also urge institutions such as this to issue invitations, through the committee system, to my colleagues and MEPs to make presentations in the way we have done today.

The "anything but arms" proposal was designed to help the poorest countries identified in order that they could get the products they produce into the European Union tariff free to pursue the issue of trade as well as aid. It is a good proposal. Although I was not responsible for leaving out arms, the reason was probably a desire not to build up the arms industry in other countries. I do not believe it was intended to protect the arms industry in the European Union and have certainly not heard that interpretation before.

We have no competence with regard to chemical weapons. The availability of anthrax and similar matters concerns me in that I have to determine the nature and size of the problem to which we have to respond. We are examining the question. I am slightly more concerned with smallpox because it is a communicable disease which could, ultimately, cause more problems than anthrax.

Senator Jackman asked me about flights. The routing of flights and related matters are determined by an interaction between regulation and market forces. While these are often governed by the open skies policy of the EU, this policy is almost exclusively a matter for the member states. As it is governed by the Ministers for transport, my colleague, Commission Vice President de Palacio, does not have much control over it. She administers the policy, but essentially decision making lies with member states.

My reference to "speedy response" related to decision making, notably at an executive level, for which Ireland is renowned.

I believe Senator Rory Kiely's question related to the report of the Court of Auditors published in Strasbourg on the night before last. It identifies a number of accounting errors by member states. My understanding is that the errors, at least as they related to Ireland, are identified as errors. Fraud or anything of that nature does not arise. This issue is always addressed by the Court of Auditors. Its function is to identify these kinds of problems and publish information on them so that they will, hopefully, be addressed. That is the purpose of the exercise. The auditors focus on the errors taking place in member states. Their work is not directed at the Commission, but at the way in which the administrations in member states handle Structural Funds, CAP transfers and other large funds which go through the system.

Senator Henry asked about antibiotic resistance. I am aware the Senator is concerned about this issue, having written to me about it. The Commission is also very concerned. Antibiotic resistance is constantly discussed. Recently, I spoke on it in the European Parliament and legislation on the subject is being processed.

We have eliminated all antibiotics in animal feed which have a cross-relationship with antibiotics used for humans. This leaves only three, perhaps four, antibiotics, none of which has a cross-relationship with antibiotics used in human medicine. We have decided to phase these out as well, which means there will soon be no antibiotics in animal feed. We are monitoring this issue. Our objective is to reach a point at which antibiotics are used only for medicinal purposes.

We have introduced a ban on the importation of beef from the United States which contains hormones. That does not mean we do not have a programme for importing cattle from the United States which have not been treated with hormones. The issue is taken very seriously and I am regularly questioned about it on the Agriculture Council. Several Ministers regard it as extremely important, as do we in the Commission, and a number of Members of the European Parliament follow this dossier very closely. I assure the Senator the matter is very high on the agenda.

I regret there is no time for further questions. I call on the Leas-Chathaoirleach to propose a vote of thanks to Commissioner Byrne.

On behalf of Seanad Éireann I thank Commissioner Byrne for his informative and interesting address. We deeply appreciate his kindness in accepting our invitation to address the Seanad and for his comprehensive replies to the questions raised by Senators. I assure him of the best wishes of all Members in fulfilling his important role as Commissioner for Health and Consumer Protection. On behalf of the Seanad, and as a near neighbour in Booterstown, I wish the Commissioner well for the future in the many challenges he faces.

Sitting suspended at 12.55 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.
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