The Order of Business is No. 1, the European Parliament Elections (Amendment) Bill 2003 — Second Stage, to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business and to conclude not later than 1.30 p.m., with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 15 minutes, those of other Senators not to exceed ten minutes, Members may share time and the Minister to be called upon to reply not later than ten minutes before the conclusion of Second Stage.
Order of Business.
Will the Leader bring some clarity to the issue of electronic voting? While we had a good debate on the issue yesterday, unfortunately, the Minister of State did not have enough time to answer all the detailed questions put to him. On the fundamental question of whether primary legislation is required to introduce this system for the elections on 11 June, the Minister of State believed that the Minister had power under section 48 of the 2001 legislation to make an order to introduce electronic voting. Given the recent High Court judgments on the Carrickmines case and the Immigration Act, primary legislation is now required because the courts have ruled that all power is vested in the Oireachtas and not in a Minister who can arbitrarily make orders or statutory instruments based on primary legislation.
This fundamental point must be resolved quickly by the Government to assure voters in the European and local elections. The courts have now placed a serious question mark over the constitutionality of amending primary legislation by secondary legislation. This issue must be resolved quickly because it not only affects this legislation, but many other Acts. In the Dáil last week, the Tánaiste stated that it was her view that primary legislation was required for this Bill. However, the Minister of State, who has responsibility for this area, said yesterday it was not necessary and that it could be done by ministerial order. The Government must sing off the same hymn sheet on this issue to bring about a positive decision on it.
I ask the leader for a debate on sentencing policy. Recently on the national airwaves, I heard of the horrendous case of a father who received 19 sentences of 12 years each for domestic violence and abuse against his family. However, after perpetrating these most appalling crimes against his wife and children, the person will be out of prison after only eight years because the sentences were received on a concurrent basis. Senator O'Toole has raised the need for a debate on sentencing policy in the past. The debate should not just be on the length of time people spend in prison, but also on the issue of concurrent sentencing. This House is the perfect venue for such a debate.
Last week, Senator Ross raised with the Leader of the House the lack of a response from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform on our motion, tabled on 28 May 2003, on the auctioneering profession. The motion was passed by the House and included commitments from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. I also raised the lack of a response three weeks ago and the week before Christmas. I know the Department treats this House with absolute contempt. However, even the Department cannot ignore a motion passed by the House.
A member of the Leader's party in the other House recently raised with me the case of a constituent's son and partner who made a bid on a house in County Dublin. Having agreed on the price, when they returned to pay, they discovered it had been increased by €10,000 and there is nothing they can do about it. A Member on the other side of the House told me the story of a family property that was sold at what was believed to be a low price, only to find out a year later that the auctioneer's brother had a beneficial interest in it. I do not want to open the debate again. However, the two main auctioneering groups are very keen on and supportive of this matter because I am sure they are as appalled by these kinds of stories as the rest of us. We will have no option but to become thoroughly disruptive if this is not delivered by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform which is ignoring the House and does not want to do this. It is on the business agreed by the House and was one of the few Private Member's motions passed with the support of both sides last year. People on the Government side of the House were as supportive as those on this side. It is not a party political issue and we all need to acknowledge that.
On a related issue, I am told the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has no absolute count of the number of housing starts or completions, that it does not keep figures and the figures it issues now and again are those received from the ESB for house connections, and from organisations such as Threshold. I would like someone to come in here to explain where these figures come from and how they are kept. All local authorities must be made aware of housing starts because of the planning laws and regulations but they do not appear to be required to provide those figures to the Department in order to give a national roll of the number of housing starts, completions and those under way.
Yesterday, 44 people were killed in horrible circumstances in Baghdad, and subsequently two American soldiers were killed, equally horribly, and the world is outraged. Yesterday too, 14 people were killed by the Israeli defence forces in Gaza. It would be a very useful exercise for this House to talk about how the world views the Middle East because quite clearly a Palestinian life is now worth far less in the world's view than an Israeli life and the killing of a Palestinian is far less significant than the killing of an Iraqi in Baghdad. There have been high level contacts between our Government and the Palestinian Authority and we have tried, quite properly, to be balanced about this but the stage is arriving now when we must say in the name of morality that what is being done to the Palestinian people is an offence against humanity, and is appallingly wrong. There is no proportion between the grievances of Israel and the response being meted out to the Palestinian people. The plans being hinted at for an apartheid regime in which many Israeli Arabs will be moved into a new State in order to preserve the racial purity of the Israeli State is a dangerous action for any country, particularly Israel. We need to discuss all these matters at some length because our Government is being criticised and is under pressure and we should support it. Furthermore, issues of fundamental morality are being waived.
I would also like us to debate the way in which the Revenue Commissioners do their business. They appear to ignore the law of the land and do not prosecute people. We write legislation in these Houses which entails serious penalties for people guilty of large-scale tax evasion and the Revenue Commissioners decide, on a matter of practice, that this is not important and do not prosecute people. We should have a debate on this.
I wish to raise three issues. Last week the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment published the redundancy figures for December and January. The latter figure was 2,800 and that for December was 2,200, marking an increase of 5% on the respective figures for last year. Behind each of these redundancies is a human story and while we might talk about growth and inflation, jobs are the acid test of how the economy is doing, and we are losing them. We need to debate this urgently.
The second issue is a plea by the Dublin City Coroner this week for an urgent amendment to the outdated Coroners Act 1962 on the basis that medical practitioners are not turning up at inquests with the result that inquests must be deferred twice or three times. I know of a case concerning someone very close to me who died tragically and an essential witness did not turn up. The fine for this is a derisory £5 as in the old days.
The third issue is that last week several owners of lap dancing clubs were brought to court, not for their sordid operations but because they were in breach of employment legislation as the girls working in the clubs did not have work permits or visas. Primary legislation is needed here, or an amendment to existing legislation to root out these promiscuous operations.
Hear, hear.
It should be dealt with urgently because there is gross exploitation in this business.
I support Senator Ryan's call for a debate on the Middle East. I agree that it is terrible to think that the lives of Palestinians and Iraqis are held in such low regard. I also feel very sorry for the soldiers and their families in America. They are all human beings. In the newspaper today there is a report of one young man weeping as he held the remains of one brother while his other brother was so shattered that his remains were put into a bag. It is appalling to think of this. These were unfortunate people so desperate for work that they enlisted in an army they did not particularly like. This bombing, whatever its source, is outrageous.
We have recently dealt with immigration and this morning people were repatriated to Moldova and Romania but there was a report in The Irish Times on Tuesday, 3 February, about a Nigerian woman, Nimota Banidele, who had three children outside marriage. Two years ago she was sentenced to death under Nigerian Sharia law. She managed to get here but she was refused asylum and was told to go back to a different part of Nigeria. What kind of thinking is that? Surely as public representatives we should protest about this.
On a further human rights issue, on Saturday 21 February there will be the signing of a petition at the top of Grafton Street for Madame Ingrid Betancourt, a Colombian and candidate in the presidential elections who was kidnapped by FARC. I and others will be there to protest on behalf of the Colombia 2,000 — not the "Three" — who have disappeared as a result of the actions of friends of the Colombia Three.
Senators
Hear, hear.
I join Senator Brian Hayes in calling for a debate on sentencing. There are matters around sentencing that give rise to concern. Could we include in that debate counselling and rehabilitation while the offender is serving that sentence? According to media reports offenders accused of terrible crimes are being released without having had rehabilitation or counselling.
Could the Leader of the House please arrange for the Minister of State with responsibility for children at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Brian Lenihan, to come to the House to make a statement on the troubled juvenile who is returning to Cloverhill for the fifth time? The Minister of State made a statement on 4 February to the effect that a suitable place would be found for this individual and that a return to Cloverhill would not be imminent but unfortunately that has not happened.
I ask the Leader to commend the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Dermot Ahern, on his fine efforts to ensure competition in the mobile telephone market. We spoke about this issue at length in the House on a few occasions. The Minister has ensured that mobile users can get a single country tariff when using their mobile telephones in the North of Ireland, and, more important, that MVNO, that is, virtual suppliers or re-sellers, will be able to use the networks of existing suppliers, thereby preventing the duopoly from continuing to make super normal profits of up to €400 million in this small country.
Another issue which has not been addressed is the roll-out of 3G in this country, namely the video link on telephones. We must ensure that companies block their telephones from transmitting pornography. We have a duty of care to our children. We were told that people have the right to transmit images, if they so wish. However, that is not correct. The House should take a stand on this issue.
Over the past couple of years the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has sternly advocated the polluter pays policy of the Government. However, we have now learned that he has allowed large industries, which produce enormous quantities of greenhouse gases, to avoid paying pollution penalties. How can the Minister justify his support for the polluter pays policy, when he allows large industries, such as cement, fertiliser and chemical companies and the ESB, to avoid paying the levies for producing greenhouse gases? It is worrying that IBEC supports the Minister and has requested a continuation of the status quo in the interest of competitiveness. Perhaps the Leader could ask the Minister to come into the House to explain such inconsistency. The citizens must pay severe levies for small amounts of pollution, yet the Minister is allowing large industries to avoid paying the required levies.
Some weeks ago I asked the Leader to arrange for a debate on human rights, as it is a key priority of the Government's EU Presidency. Yesterday evening the O'Brien family, which has 13 children, was moved as it was accused of parking illegally on a site in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown. We need a debate on Travellers. Their life expectancy is ten to 12 years lower than the national average and there are twice as many stillbirths. This issue is dear to my heart.
Amnesty International gave us a document entitled, Human Rights Beginning at Home, which focuses on the EU and the broader international scene. I was in Colombia two weeks ago where I met the vice-president of Colombia and the EU Presidency representative, the Dutch ambassador. The MEP, Niall Andrews, categorically stated that he was putting his reputation on the line by saying that the three men are innocent of the accusations. The Members who were sneering here this morning at the three Irish citizens incarcerated in Colombia are inhuman. The two people who were sneering this morning do not believe in the presumption of innocence. It is absolutely appalling.
All that can be debated during the human rights debate the Senator is seeking.
Two or three years ago I raised a matter on the Adjournment about the situation between the Minister for Health and Children, the medical indemnity bodies and the hospital consultants. I said that the way the negotiations were going between those bodies would mean the taxpayers would have to pay the bill. The taxpayers will pay the bill and the only problem is how much it will be. I have been a member of the Medical Defence Union since I qualified. Around that time it was found that a covert deal had been done between the Medical Protection Society and the Department, which caused trouble. The Medical Protection Society has admitted it was a mistake not to bring the deal out in the open. However, I have not heard the Minister for Health and Children say that. Hospital consultants have little idea what they are covered for at present. They are not covered for good Samaritan work outside their hospitals. This is a serious situation because they are now going on limited industrial action and this will escalate. Will the Leader ask the Minister for Health and Children to come into the House to tell us how he proposes to deal with this serious medical situation?
Given the importance of road safety, will the Leader ask the Minister for Transport to come into the House for a debate on the reasons it is not necessary for car owners to do an NCT before they tax or insure their cars?
It would be nice to see him.
People are concerned about this issue. I hope the Minister will come into the House for a debate on this important matter.
I join with Senator Brian Hayes in expressing our disappointment that despite assurances given by the Leader yesterday that time would be made available at the end of statements for questions to the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, it did not happen. The Leader should arrange another date for questions on this issue because there are still 41 unanswered questions about electronic voting.
Doctors, consultants, nurses and those who work at the coalface of the health service describe the Hanly strategy as flawed. It is important that we invite the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, to the House to debate the chaotic and indefensible state of our health service. This centralised approach will not work. Last week there were more than 200 people waiting on trolleys in the Eastern Regional Health Authority area. There are long queues in the accident and emergency departments throughout the country. There was a roadside birth in County Cavan yesterday.
Speech.
I have given the Senator enough latitude to explain the reasons he wants a debate.
There are enormous cutbacks in services in rural areas. It was outrageous that the Minister for Health and Children criticised the national association which was set up to save the services at 26 general hospitals. Rather than criticising it in the media, he should come into the House to tell us what he intends to do about the deteriorating health service.
I support the broad thrust of the suggestion by Senator Ryan, which was supported by Senator Norris, that we should have a debate on the Iraqi situation. We should consider this issue, particularly in light of Ireland's Presidency of the EU. What is the approach of the European Union and of Ireland to the ongoing horror and loss of life unfolding before us in Iraq?
I know it is difficult to talk about morality in a broad sense, but perhaps the Leader is considering having a debate about morality and about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. While I have enormous sympathy and understanding for the Palestinian cause and fully support the Government's call for the right of self-determination, I also know that if I were living in the State of Israel surrounded by the hostility that exists there, I would wish the government that represented me would ensure the protection of its citizens. That is another element, notwithstanding the criticism Israel gets about its proactive approach to rooting out terrorism in the occupied territory. We must take a balanced view because there are two sides to this intractable question.
I fully support Senator Higgins's call for a debate on the pernicious activity of lap dancing. We seem to be such a tolerant and liberal society that we accept without question that this has become the norm. I remember two years a former prostitute, who was leading the world-wide call for the elimination of lap dancing, said it was the first step on the road to prostitution. It is a serious issue. I agree with Senator Higgins that primary legislation is needed because the Garda and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform have stated repeatedly to me and others who have raised this matter privately that the only way they can attack it is on the question of whether those working in lap dancing clubs have work permits. Illegal trafficking is taking place now.
The Senator cannot make a statement on the matter.
I appreciate that. I am trying to emphasise the need to address this serious issue.
The point has been very eloquently made.
I apologise to the House. I could not hear all of what Senator White said, as I was so busy interrupting her.
Regardless of what Senator White said, does Senator Ross have a question for the Leader?
I have several questions for the Leader. Could she allow time——
For Senator White.
—— for Senator White to debate the Colombia three so that we can argue the case? I notice there is no motion in Senator White's name on the Order Paper. We should have time to express our views on what those three bandits were doing out there.
Prejudicial language should be avoided.
By the Dutch ambassador and Niall Andrews as well.
We are talking about a criminal trial.
While I know the Leader has had difficulties with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, I support what Senator O'Toole said. It is not acceptable that a review of auctioneering promised to this House has not happened. It is not good enough that promises made by a Minister in this House should be ignored by his officials. I am not pointing a sword or a finger at the auctioneering business. I am just looking for a review, which was promised last May and has not materialised.
Senator Ryan's comments on tax evasion are important, as I also heard what the head of the Revenue Commissioners said. I am tired of hearing the Revenue Commissioners will prosecute hundreds of small individuals and then tell the Oireachtas committee they will do nothing about the banks. In this case, the individuals concerned were traduced into this by people in the banks. The only penalty that the banks or those working for them have paid in the case of tax evasion through bogus non-resident accounts is a payment of €30 million in the case of Bank of Ireland and somewhat more in the case of AIB. They have paid with other people's money for offences committed by their staff. This is not acceptable.
Hear, hear.
Is the Senator seeking a debate?
It is time for the Revenue Commissioners to prosecute those responsible for traducing people into doing this and not just the small individuals who held such accounts.
I endorse the call for a debate on sentencing. I also endorse what Senator Henry said about the statement by the Minister for Health and Children on the Medical Defence Union and how it intends to operate insurance for consultants in future. This is becoming a very serious issue and I would welcome a debate. Illegal trafficking is becoming a major issue throughout the country and needs to be debated here.
I support what my colleague, Senator Brian Hayes, said about electronic voting. Through no fault of the Minister's yesterday, time constraints did not allow us to get the clarification required. There are many unanswered questions including the crucial one on primary legislation referred to by Senator Hayes. Another question arises out of the Supreme Court decision in the McMahon v. the Attorney General case regarding the secrecy of the ballot. Under the new system if a citizen approaches the booth and either deliberately or inadvertently fails to press the “activate” button ——
We cannot debate electronic voting at this stage.
As ever I am obliged for your guidance, a Chathaoirligh. The system appears to be in total conflict with the unanimous decision of the honourable Supreme Court justices and needs further clarification.
I support what Senator O'Toole said about auctioneering and what was unanimously agreed by this House some time ago. My colleagues behind me seem to believe that the Leader has a problem with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. I doubt that and I am sure she would be able to get around the Department. We all want to see best practice operating evenly throughout the country. The commitment that was given should be honoured. The IAVI and the IPAV are in full support of this.
Last year we had an excellent debate on autism. At the time, the Leader promised to resume the debate as numerous Senators had indicated they wanted to speak. I ask her to schedule this in the coming weeks.
Senator Brian Hayes asked whether primary legislation for electronic voting is now needed. This is an issue that was not fully resolved yesterday. I understand the Minister spent 15 minutes answering questions on this matter, which was very commendable. I have received a note indicating that the Government has asked the Attorney General to give a ruling on the technical aspects as to whether primary legislation is needed or a ministerial order would suffice. As soon as the reply from the Attorney General comes to hand, we will be aware of it.
A man who was convicted of grossly abusing all his children is scheduled to be released shortly and Senator Brian Hayes asked for a debate on sentencing policy. Judges vary and we have a system of justice that works very well by and large. It would be very difficult to have a sentencing policy and I could not envisage such a policy working positively or correctly. Circumstances vary from case to case. I have no difficulty with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. We find the Minister most agreeable and accessible at all times. While a difficulty arose with the Immigration Bill, that was a separate matter. I will ask whether we can have a debate on sentencing policy. To my uninformed mind about legalities I cannot see judges bobbing their heads in the one way on a particular crime because of the variance in the background to each crime.
Senator O'Toole asked about the auctioneering report. When the House next meets, I will have a reply as to when we will get that report. I will take a note of it and ensure we get a definitive answer. The Senator also spoke about housing and the lack of accuracy on precise housing starts and completions. We will endeavour to have the Minister of State with responsibility for housing give us an update on housing.
Senator Ryan asked for a debate on the Middle East and he mentioned Iraq in particular. Last week we had a debate on Israel and Palestine to which many worthy people contributed. It would not be possible to have another debate on the matter. The Senator also spoke about the Revenue Commissioners. I do not know how we can comprehend that issue. I will make inquiries of the Department of Finance.
Senator Higgins spoke of the rise in the number of redundancies. I noted those figures and as the Senator said, behind each of those figures is an individual. I hope and expect this to lessen because of the modest economic upturn. I will ask the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform about amending the Coroners Act.
I agree with Senator Higgins that lap dancing is atrocious. The young women who come here to participate in the industry are obviously fleeing from something. However, they are entering an employment which is degrading to them despite the fact that they get paid a great deal of money. The only way in which their employers can be apprehended is under employment legislation, rather than on moral grounds. I do not approach the issue from a moral point of view, but I feel that it degrades the dignity and self-worth of each individual and which women who work in this industry could not have.
Senator Norris requested a debate on Iraq and raised the issue of a Nigerian woman who is to be stoned to death after being buried in sand. I do not know the details of this case so perhaps the Senator could furnish them to me. Senator Feeney requested a debate on sentencing and the need for rehabilitation and counselling for people who have been involved in crime because, otherwise, they rejoin the cycle of crime.
Senator McCarthy outlined the need for the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Brian Lenihan, to address the issue of the young offender who has gone back into Cloverhill Prison for the fifth time, about which there is a major newspaper story today. I understand a resolution of the issue is imminent, but I will inquire further into the matter.
Senator Hanafin commended the Minister for Communication, Marine and Natural Resources on the manner in which he has dealt with competition in the mobile phone market. In regard to Senator Ulick Burke's point, I do not think the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is in favour of allowing big business away with not paying environmental levies and I have not read anything in that connection. We are endeavouring to have the Minister come to the House to discuss various matters and the Senator's issue can be one of them.
Senator White requested debates on human rights and Travellers, both of which are good issues. Senator Henry stated that two or three years ago she raised on the Adjournment the situation between the Minister for Health and Children, the indemnifying bodies and the hospital consultants. A serious situation has developed in that regard. There was an airing of views on the issue on "Morning Ireland" this morning, the net result of which is that we still do not know any more. However, does anyone want the State to bear €100 million in costs for a failed indemnifying company which has decided to pull the plug? It is a difficult issue.
Senator Moylan stated that the NCT is not required before people tax and insure their vehicles. I was surprised by this because the NCT is about having safe vehicles on the road to allow for better traffic management. I will ask the Minister about the matter. Senator Bannon requested a general debate on health and stated that the Minster for Health and Children should not criticise the national body which was set up. The Minister's point was about scaremongering rather than the setting up of a national body. Senator Mooney requested a debate on Palestine and Israel, but we cannot have another debate on the issue.
I asked for a debate on Iraq.
We can have a debate on Iraq. We had a good debate on Palestine and Israel and a debate on Iraq has merit because the number of deaths there is accelerating.
Senator Ross raised the review of the auctioneering industry and said a motion on the Colombia three should be tabled.
I think Senator White should do it.
Senator Ross also raised the Revenue Commissioners' alleged lack of urgency in sentencing, arresting or fining offenders. Senator Ormonde requested debates on sentencing and the hospital consultants' dispute. She also referred to women who engage in lap dancing.
Senator Coghlan requested a debate on electronic voting. In that context, it is hoped the Attorney General will give a decision on the principal issue of whether the legislation should be primary or secondary. Senator Coghlan also raised the issue of the secrecy of the ballot and the auctioneering review. Senator Browne requested a debate on autism and he is correct that No. 11 on the Order Paper is a resumption of that debate. I will seek to have that debate resumed.
Order of Business agreed to.