Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 8 Jul 2004

Vol. 177 No. 12

Order of Business.

Ms O’Rourke

The Order of Business is No. 1, a motion regarding the designation of the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service as the authorised committee for the purposes of section 32(2) of the Freedom of Information Act 1997, to be taken without debate; No. 2, Civil Liability and Courts Bill 2004 [Seanad Bill amended by the Dáil] — Report and Final Stages, to be taken on the conclusion of the Order of Business and to conclude no later than 11.30 a.m.; No. 3, Residential Tenancies Bill 2003 — Report and Final Stages, to be taken at 11.30 a.m. and to conclude at 1 p.m.; No. 4, Maternity Protection (Amendment) Bill 2003 [Seanad Bill amended by the Dáil] — Report and Final Stages, to be taken at 1 p.m. and to conclude no later than 1.30 p.m.; No. 5, Maritime Security Bill 2004 [Seanad Bill amended by the Dáil] — Report and Final Stages, to be taken at 1.30 p.m. and to conclude no later than 2.30 p.m.; and No. 6, Education for Persons with Special Educational Needs Bill 2003 — Report and Final Stages, to be taken at 2.30 p.m. and to conclude at 4.30 p.m.

Regarding No. 1, section 32(2) of the Freedom of Information Act 1997 provides, inter alia, that a joint committee of both Houses shall review from time to time the operation of any provisions of any enactment that authorise or require the non-disclosure of any record and to ascertain whether specified legislative change is required. The authorised committee must report the results of its review to both Houses.

Mr. B. Hayes

The prospect of health officers running around the pubs of this country to take the names of people who are smoking is quite Orwellian. In the current situation where one County Galway publican is openly flouting the smoking ban and others are considering doing the same, would the Leader agree that a calm and reasoned approach is necessary? People must realise that the law is the law and it must be implemented.

Mr. Norris

Hear, hear.

Mr. B. Hayes

While this breach of the law may just be a publicity stunt on behalf of one publican or a group of publicans, the anti-smoking legislation is important in terms of sending out a strong public health warning against the dangers of smoking. Another report regarding the dangers of passive smoking was published in Britain last week. I ask the Government to move swiftly on this matter and I compliment the Minister for Health and Children on his actions to date. It is important that every citizen should realise that laws enacted by the Houses of the Oireachtas must be enforced locally. Nobody is above the law and nobody has the right to decide not to implement the law where he or she is obliged to do so. The Government has moved quickly on this and I encourage it and the health authorities which have a responsibility locally to continue in the same vein.

The House shall debate the State Airports Bill 2004 next week and I ask the Leader if time might be given during that discussion to consider the enterprise strategy group's report of yesterday to the Tánaiste. A short debate would be useful and perhaps the Tánaiste could attend to respond to the various recommendations in the report. The most important of these are the need for Ireland to retain its competitive edge and to root out uncompetitive practices in the economy and the necessity of a vibrant immigration policy which is based on skills shortages in the existing economy. There was a harsh rebuke for the Government's policy in that area to date. Regarding the national spatial strategy, the report stated there was a need to build up capacity in the new economic hubs that the Government has highlighted as opposed to the dispersal approach evident in the decentralisation programme. We should debate this matter next week given that the Dáil is not sitting.

Mr. O’Toole

The first item on the Order of Business regarding the designation of the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service is simply a matter of dealing with the question of which groups and institutions should be subject to the provisions of the Freedom of Information Act 1997. Recently we received the annual report of the Information Commissioner which has been dealt with by the Committee on Finance and the Public Service, which had a meeting with the commissioner yesterday. The issues arising are astounding and are much worse than those which arose last year when the Act was amended. The implications and consequences of this amendment are far worse than we ever expected and we should review this in the autumn. Requests for information have reduced by 80% in some cases. We all agreed people were abusing the Act but this statistic points to people not being able to use the Act. Ireland is the only country which sets a charge of €150 for an appeal to an information commissioner. As far as our Information Commissioner is concerned, her job is stalled. The flow of information has been stopped. A number of weeks ago, Senator Brian Hayes asked for a debate on the report. We should come back to it in the autumn as there is no immediate rush to have a debate. However, it should be made clear to Government that this is not good enough.

Mr. Dooley

Double the fees.

Mr. O’Toole

The Aer Rianta Bill, unfortunately, will be pushed through next week. The House will be prevented from making changes and it will be an absolute charade. I accept Second Stage will be useful to put issues on the record but, after that, it will be a charade. Did the Attorney General give advice to the Government on the Bill before it was published? Has the Attorney General been made aware of the conditions and restrictions attaching to the €500 million borrowings of Aer Rianta? Is the Government, including the Attorney General, satisfied no risk attaches to those borrowings going forward? There are significant problems and this issue needs to be addressed. I will return to it at a later date. However, I would like clarity on whether the Attorney General has examined this issue and whether he has been absolutely assured no restrictions attach to Aer Rianta's borrowings; otherwise, what is proposed would be dangerous and risky for the taxpayer.

Mr. Ryan

There are many laws with which I disagree. That is the nature of democracy but I have no right to break any of them and nobody has the right to claim the right to break the law. I, therefore, enthusiastically support the promised action by the Minister for Health and Children relating to the smoking ban and he should have the vocal support of all Members of the Oireachtas.

Senators

Hear, hear.

Mr. Ryan

There is no way to avoid tyranny other than by the rule of law and if people believe it is uncomfortable or difficult for them, they should seek to have the law changed. They should not be allowed, under any circumstances, to break the law. I regret that the Minister can yet again go charging into the smoke and, therefore, escape his obligations to deal with the major problems in the health service. However, somebody else created this problem.

Yesterday evening reasonableness and common sense on the part of a member of the Government enabled us to reach a reasonable position on the Dormant Accounts (Amendment) Bill 2004. The Minister for Community Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs agreed to return to it in the autumn and he assured me he would recommit the legislation so that a sane and sensible Committee Stage can be taken then. Will the Leader confirm this is the case?

This sets a good example, which, perhaps, another Minister could have followed in terms of providing time for a sensible, rational discussion in the autumn, when there will not be a shortage of debating time. I compliment the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs. We started in tetchy humour and we shouted a little each other but good sense prevailed.

Mr. B. Hayes

As the evening wore on.

Mr. Ryan

And as we wore out.

Ms O’Rourke

The Minister and the Senator were vibrant to the end.

Mr. Ryan

Flattery will get the Leader everywhere.

An Cathaoirleach

That was yesterday's business. The Senator should return to today's business.

Mr. Ryan

I thought the Cathaoirleach would at least have complimented me on being nice.

An Cathaoirleach

I cannot give compliments.

Mr. Ryan

Regarding the report of the enterprise strategy group, I am disappointed Members did not receive copies of it. It is astonishing that newspapers could publish multiple pages of the report, yet Members of the Oireachtas did not receive a copy. I have long learned not to trust newspaper summaries of such reports because ideology and other things get in the way.

I am interested to hear about the emphasis on immigration in the report because I had not picked up on that in the articles I read. A serious debate on immigration is needed because it does not only concern a shortage of skills. Many immigrants have no skills and they are imported into areas of the economy where there is a shortage of people to do unskilled work. It would be extremely invidious to put together an immigration policy, which provided green cards for people with skills and sustained a form of bonded labour whereby many people coming to Ireland to work, particularly in the catering industry, would not have skills or qualifications. Our immigration policy must be based on the need for workers in the economy and not on skills and qualifications.

I agree with Senator Brian Hayes that the House should discuss the report but I would rather leave it until the autumn so that we can have a long, detailed debate because this is an extremely important document. Predictably, economists are saying the same thing they have been saying for 20 years. Given the number of prominent economists who make the same comments over and over again, I am inclined to rephrase Clinton's famous comment "It's the economy, stupid". In this country the problem is the stupid economists.

Dr. Mansergh

Charlie Haughey would have approved.

Mr. Dooley

I support the call by Senators Brian Hayes and Ryan for a debate on the enterprise strategy report, about which we have all read this morning. It would be timely to have the debate next week, given that the State Airports Bill 2004 will also be debated. The report has implications for the mid-west region and Shannon Development and it makes a number of interesting comments in this regard. I also have not read the report in its entirety and I am depending largely on media reports. However, I have received a number of calls from people in Clare and the mid-west. There is great concern about the provisions of the State Airports Bill 2004 and the strategy report. People are concerned about their jobs in State agencies and the concentration of industrial development in the region. Under the decentralisation programme, Enterprise Ireland will be based at Shannon. Notwithstanding that, the retention of knowledge and skills of employees of Shannon Development has been crucial to the development of the area. The strategy needs to be addressed in a careful and calculated way going forward.

Mr. Bradford

I support the call for a debate on the enterprise strategy report. I presume there will not be sufficient time next week to schedule anything other than brief statements but it is important that time should be set aside for a debate at the earliest date. This is an interesting and fundamental report and its recommendations on immigration and migrant labour present a major challenge to society. The Oireachtas Joint Committee on European Affairs recently examined the future economic development of Europe and the central finding of its report was that over the next decade tens of millions of people will have to migrate to the Union if its economic base is to be sustained. If that is the picture in Europe generally, there will be a similar requirement in Ireland.

We debated the issue of citizenship and racism in recent months. Significant numbers of foreign workers must be allowed into the State if economic progress is to be sustained. It will be a challenge to a society to address this issue fully, accept it openly and put structures in place to meet the recommendations as quickly as possible. A thorough debate is required and it will be a great challenge to us politically and to every other citizen to accept in a mature fashion the requirements of the Ireland of the new millennium.

Mr. Norris

I support the comments of Senator Brian Hayes about the defiance of the smoking ban. He has isolated an important issue. No sectoral interest has the right to flout the law, particularly when it involves potential damage to the health of citizens. It is wrong and unacceptable.

I ask the Leader to urgently raise a case with the Department of Foreign Affairs, which relates to a young Chinese man who was studying in Ireland. He is a Falun Gong practitioner who was put in a labour camp by the Chinese authorities. As a result of pressure involving the Irish Government he was released some time ago. He wishes to return to Ireland with his wife to resume his studies here but he has been held up in the Irish Embassy because of a visa problem. It is remarkable that someone should be allowed out by the Chinese authorities after all this difficulty and then, for bureaucratic reasons, have another problem. His name is Feng Liu and I would be grateful if the Leader would raise this matter with the Minister for Foreign Affairs.

This House played a role in a discussion on abortion, and I took a particular line on the freedom of information about abortion in light of my experience. We now have a dreadful situation in that at least two backstreet abortions have been performed on members of the immigrant or asylum seeking community. Part of this results from the mean-spirited removal of certain sections of the population from the operation of the social security services. We say we are serious about the respect for the right to life and such ideals but as we speak employers are entitled to refuse to renew work permits for people like these two women once they become pregnant. That is shameful and we should draw it to the attention of the relevant authorities, as it is the kind of pressure which leads to abortions. If we are serious we should address this issue and make life easier for these unfortunate women.

A debate on the Freedom of Information Act is necessary in light of the Ombudsman's report. Ms O'Reilly said, as we predicted on this side of the House, that the charges introduced did not even cover the administration of their imposition. The only reason could be to prevent people from getting access to information. The Taoiseach said yesterday in the Dáil that inquiries to his Department under the Act had dropped to one third of what they were, and the majority of those requests came from journalists. That is worrying, because journalists have a right to this information. They have a right to investigate, though sometimes they get it wrong and they misinterpret the information they are given. We should be prepared to correct that misinformation but we need a debate on this issue, as what was said on this side of the House has been validated by the Ombudsman.

Mr. Bannon

I have called in the past for a debate on the massive underspend of €650 million in the national development plan on the BMW region, which has Objective One status, and I now do so again. I have highlighted this in the past and I have called on the Leader for a debate on the mid-term review of the BMW region. I want the Government to embark on a programme of real investment in the region. There will be significant decentralisation to the midlands and the west and it is important to have the proper infrastructure in place.

Rumour is rampant in the midlands and in the House that the new EU Commissioner will be announced by the end of the month and there is speculation that the Leader's name has been put forward for that position.

Mr. B. Hayes

Hear, hear.

Mr. Bannon

I wish her well. It would be very embarrassing if she were Commissioner with responsibility for rural development when there is a massive underspend in our area.

Ms O’Rourke

Senator Bannon would be my chef de cabinet.

Ms O’Meara

I welcome the review of the Freedom of Information Act by the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service and I note that it will report in due course to both Houses. Will the Leader arrange for a debate on the report when it is completed? Will she use her good offices and considerable authority to ensure the Government listens to the recommendations of the committee?

When I heard on the radio this morning that the Garda is investigating backstreet abortions involving foreign women in Ireland I, like many others, was appalled. Refugees and asylum seekers existing on €19 per week and illegal workers who clearly feel they cannot leave the country now form part of what can only be described as a hidden Ireland. They lack social protection to such an extent that they feel it necessary to have illegal, backstreet abortions and to put their health at risk. We cannot ignore that and we should look at this as legislators. At the minimum it is ironic that having passed a referendum based on the so-called propensity of asylum seekers and women from third countries to have babies in Ireland, one of the first stories to emerge after that referendum is the horrific reality of backstreet abortions taking place here. That is appalling.

I ask the Leader to make time in the autumn for a debate on dyslexia. We had a very good rolling debate on autism, which was very useful, and I have been asked by several people about a debate on dyslexia. I will discuss this with the Leader later.

Mr. Glynn

I support the remarks of Senator Norris. All right-minded people will be appalled by his revelations and I call on the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to have this matter investigated. I wonder if the person who carried out those backstreet abortions is still in the country. The chances are they may not be.

Ms O’Meara

They are not.

Mr. Norris

They are gone.

Mr. Glynn

In any event this must be nipped in the bud. I am appalled by the revelations and I demand an immediate investigation. This must be stamped out now.

Mr. Feighan

I concur with Senators about these illegal abortions. I am alarmed that the Garda has begun separate investigations into backstreet abortions, which cost up to €500. The House should immediately let these vulnerable groups know that help is available for new arrivals and new ethnic groups. We should have education and information campaigns in these people's native language outlining the health and social services available to them.

Mr. B. Hayes

Hear, hear.

Mr. Feighan

This is a very worrying trend and the House should immediately assure these people that help is available.

Mr. Quinn

I agree with calls for a debate on the enterprise strategy report. It is probably correct, as Senator Ryan said, to wait until we have had time to consider it and discuss it in September or October rather than now.

I draw the Leader's attention to a report published yesterday in Britain which is causing the British to reconsider their strategy on child care. For years the emphasis here and in Britain has been on encouraging more child care. The report yesterday suggests that nursery care can lead to increased evidence of anti-social behaviour among children under two years, and the British are apparently going to announce an alternative method of handling child care today which involves encouraging parents to stay at home by increasing the amount of child maternity leave for mothers.

I raise this because that research does not necessarily conform with the research in other countries, so let us not jump to the same conclusion as the British without doing our own research. This issue plays a large part in the enterprise strategy report, and there have been calls for increased child care in Ireland for a long time. We have listened to those and taken some steps but we have not done nearly enough. Let us make sure that when we take the steps we go in the right direction.

Mr. Mooney

I was not going to intervene but I am grateful that Senator Quinn has raised this issue. It provides justification for a debate on child care in the autumn.

Speaking as chairman of the County Leitrim child care committee, there is unquestionably a need to debate the emphasis being placed by Government policy on the manner in which child care is funded. Increasingly, the view is that the development of the child is being neglected at the expense of providing what are effectively baby-minding services and nothing more. In other words, we are fuelling an economy to encourage women to leave the home and enter the workforce. This encouragement is fuelled partly by the need for additional skills in the economy.

For some years under the equal opportunities programme, it has been a matter of policy to provide funding for child care facilities, although some may say it is inadequate and I agree that we need to spend more. We must debate where the emphasis should be placed in future. Are we to provide nothing more than a baby-minding service for those who have no choice but to work, while neglecting the development of the child by not providing properly structured programmes for children in the mornings and afternoons? I welcome Senator Quinn's intervention in this regard. As a former Minister for Education, the Leader may also wish to express a view on the matter.

Mr. U. Burke

In the run up to the last abortion referendum in 2002, much play was made of the fact that substantial resources, personnel and expertise would be put in place to help people with crisis pregnancies. In recent days, at least two women, and probably many more, have resorted to backstreet abortions. This is another clear example of the failure to implement the promises made then of support mechanisms that were supposed to be put in place to help those with crisis pregnancies. The relevant Government services have failed to put those support mechanisms into action, despite all the support that was promised prior to 2002. The Leader should make immediate contact with the relevant bodies with responsibility for the delivery of such services so they can be activated on an emergency basis.

Mr. Browne

I seek a debate in the autumn term on the failure of the penalty points system to reduce road deaths. It is appalling that, so far this year, 191 people have lost their lives on the roads. One can only imagine the heartache this has caused their bereaved families. Clear patterns are emerging as to when car crashes are most likely to occur. As legislators, we should have a role in preventing road accidents. We must analyse why the penalty points system was so successful initially but has since failed to reduce road deaths. I hope the Minister for Transport will attend the House for such a debate in the autumn. He may be able to enlighten us on this matter.

We are beginning to see some unravelling of the initial success of the smoking ban. I am not sure if the current Minister for Health and Children will be in charge in the autumn, but perhaps we can have an ongoing debate on the success or otherwise of the ban. There is a tendency to introduce new laws that start off well and then fade away. The penalty points system is an example. In the autumn term, the new Minister for Health and Children may outline whether he or she has any plans to introduce a system, as in New York, where pubs can apply for a smoking licence. It would be interesting for the House to examine that aspect of the issue, so perhaps the Leader could organise such a debate in the autumn session.

Ms O’Rourke

Senator Brian Hayes mentioned the recurring theme that "the law is the law, and we live by it". Everyone agrees that no encouragement should be given to those who seek to break the law. The Senator's point was valid and it caught the mood of the House. He also asked about a debate on the enterprise strategy next week but I agree with subsequent speakers that it should be kept for the autumn term when we can have a full discussion. I have not yet received this important report, although I have requested it and hope to receive it later today. The Senator also mentioned the need for vibrant, integrated immigration and spatial policies. I will take note of that report and hopefully the House can debate it early in the new session.

Senator O'Toole mentioned the data commissioner and said that freedom of information requests had decreased by 38%.

Mr. O’Toole

The figure is 80%.

Ms O’Rourke

He mentioned that the Ombudsman appeared before the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service. It was a startling revelation that the money brought in by the new charges for freedom of information requests does not cover the costs involved, which seems ludicrous.

The Senator also asked about the State Airports Bill. I tabled a question to the Office of the Attorney General this morning to ask whether he had given advice on that matter. I hope to have the reply before the House commences its debate on the Bill next week.

Senator Ryan echoed the sentiment that we live by the rule of law. He paid due tribute to the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Ó Cuív. As you will know, a Chathaoirligh, there was a good debate on the Dormant Accounts Bill here yesterday. I attended the end of that debate, which had been lively. The belief is dawning that these matters must be re-examined. When we adjourned to the ante-room there was an excellent debate, which included the Minister, his officials and Senators who had contributed earlier, including Senator Ó Murchú.

An Cathaoirleach

I am not sure if discussions in the ante-room could be called debates.

Ms O’Rourke

No, I am just trying to explain that we had a discussion. Following that, the Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív, told us that in the early autumn he wishes to recommit the Dormant Accounts Bill to Committee Stage, after which Report and Final Stages will be taken. It was a rare occurrence but it was worthwhile and greatly acclaimed by those who were present when the Minister took that decision.

Senator Dooley sought a debate on the enterprise strategy report, which is a good idea, particularly as one of the issues concerns Shannon development. It would muddy one debate, however, to have a debate on the other matter at the same time, but I will take account of the Senator's request in that regard.

Senator Bradford referred to the challenges currently facing our society. Senator Ryan raised a related point concerning whether we would have unskilled bonded labour and skilled green card labour. That would immediately create a two-tier system in the workplace and the Senator elaborated on that point. Those are huge challenges but we will need many workers with a variety skills. The important aspect is how we deal with people and shape labour policy generally.

Senator Norris also said that nobody can flout the law. In addition, he asked about the Chinese student, a member of the Falun Gong, who had been here and wishes to return with his wife in order to resume his studies. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is responsible for visas so I will contact him with regard to that matter. I am currently in contact with him about another case, so I will raise the issue mentioned by the Senator also.

Senator Norris raised the issue of backstreet abortions and the refusal to grant work permits to pregnant immigrants.

Mr. Norris

If they become pregnant while employed here.

Ms O’Rourke

I do not know if that is so, but I will make inquiries about it. It would be a serious matter if it were the case. Senator Norris also mentioned the fact that the money charged for freedom of information requests does not cover the costs involved.

Senator Bannon sought a debate on the BMW Objective One region. I will take the Senator as my chef de cabinet. Would that not be lovely? We would have a great time in Europe.

Mr. B. Hayes

The midlands mafia in Brussels.

Ms O’Rourke

Senator O'Meara requested a debate on the report of the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service, referred to in No. 1 on the Order Paper. She also requested a debate on dyslexia, which would be interesting. We previously debated the issue of autism which ran for a number of sessions, the notes from which the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Tim O'Malley, said he found very helpful.

Senator O'Meara also raised the issue of backstreet abortions. It is extremely sad that these women were so confused and had to take such action, sad in the context of the abortion of a baby and also in regard to the women's health. The abortions came to light because one of the women was discovered in a bad state of health afterwards. The issue, which was also raised by Senators Feighan and Glynn, has echoes of half a century ago when, as Senator Feighan stated, women did not have or could not access the information to help them.

Today, two good bodies namely, the Crisis Pregnancy Agency and Cura, provide such information. They advertise widely, post notices in public buildings, give good advice and offer practical help. However, as was raised on a radio programme this morning, the question is whether the women in question would have understood English and been able to follow advice offered. For information to be useful, it must be accessible and understandable by everyone. I listened to Ms Olive Braiden talking about the issue and I and some of the women in the House met with her afterwards to discuss it among other matters.

Senator Quinn referred to an imminent new policy development on child care in the UK, whereby maternity leave might be legally extended in order that men or women can stay at home with their babies for the first two years. Senator Mooney raised a similar issue in respect of properly structured child care which would have an educational element. It is not a comment on the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, but it would seem that other Departments would be more suited to hear a discussion on the matter.

I do not agree with Senator Ulick Burke's point about the backstreet abortions. The incidents are sad but stones should not be cast at Departments because there will always be aberrations. Berating people about the matter is not fruitful. Senator Browne referred to the issue of road fatalities. He also appears to be lurching towards another way of looking at the smoking ban. However, the law is the law and, no matter what Minister is in office, it is on the Statute Book.

Order of Business agreed to.