I welcome the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, to the House.
Adjournment Matters
Springboard Initiative
Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire. I wish to say how productive I found our meeting yesterday when the Minister briefed us. I am pleased he is a genuine listening Minister. I am now asking him to listen to this case also, which is an unusual one. The person concerned has been to see me a number of times and is at her wits' end. She can get similar programmes funded elsewhere under the springboard initiative, but not the particular programme which facilitates her. She is mid-way through it at this stage. I am trying to establish why an unemployed mother is not being funded to do a part-time MBA at NUI Galway under the springboard initiative, considering that similar programmes in other universities are funded. The course in question is a part-time MBA at NUI Galway, which is not funded by the springboard initiative. Other MBA courses — including the one at the University of Limerick — are funded even though they are carbon copies of the one at NUI Galway.
At this stage, the woman has been around all the Departments but has had no luck, hence my reason for raising this matter on the Adjournment. The mother in question has been unemployed since February 2009, having successfully operated her own travel agency business for 12 years. She is a single parent with two grown-up children in third level education. She raised her children on her own with no other form of financial support and is pleased to have done so. When she had to cease trading as a travel agent due to the erosion of the business via direct Internet bookings, she was fortunate to gain full-time employment within three weeks as a business development manager with a local company. At that stage she realised that, although she had many transferable skills to bring with her, the lack of a third level education would be a major stumbling block in progressing her career. She therefore undertook a four year, part-time bachelor of commerce degree at NUI Galway. However, as she completed two years of the B.Comm there, herself and two other B.Comm students were recommended, and allowed, to transfer to the MBA course at NUI Galway due to the grades they had received, in addition to the business experience gained through their working careers. The transfer was therefore a recommendation. She felt that moving on to the MBA would enhance her prospect of gaining employment and she still believes that.
She is now in a situation where she will be unable to finish her MBA this year as she cannot fund the course. I have done the maths with her every way but she is exasperated. She has applied for various other level 9 courses through the springboard initiative. She was advised that she was eligible to undertake the following courses and that funding would be made available to her: an MBA at Athlone IT; a BA in business and entrepreneurship at IADT, Dún Laoghaire, which has similar subjects; an MA in business at UCC; an MA in science and strategic management at UL; a postgraduate diploma in science at IT Sligo; and a specialist diploma in innovation management at UL. She has met the eligibility criteria for all these courses, but would have to travel at least twice a week to the various institutions around the country to undertake them. Her MBA in Galway covers the following subjects: strategic management, entrepreneurship and innovation, Irish economic policy, enterprise architecture, management, HR, leadership and change, information systems, innovation and strategic marketing.
Eliminating the BA courses from the list I cited, she has a valid point in comparing the content of the programme in Galway vis-à-vis the content of the MA and other postgraduate courses. The subjects she has undertaken in the MBA course are similar to those listed in the other courses I mentioned. As of last Friday, she had contacted the University of Limerick with regard to the MA course in project and programme management, which is advertised on the springboard website. There is still availability on that course. Therefore, funding is still available by the current administration and it has not yet been depleted. Is it possible that some of this funding could be transferred to the cost of her MBA at NUI Galway so that she can finish her course?
The Minister should not forget that this woman was already advised to transfer from the B.Comm course to the MBA one. At this point she does not have any third level qualification and feels she is stuck between a pillar and a post. She genuinely hopes she can gain some form of funding as she is enjoying her studies and feels she is a better business manager and has a clearer understanding of what businesses need to do to remain competitive and innovative in order to survive. She has gained this knowledge since undertaking the MBA course. I appeal to the Minister on this person's behalf.
I thank the Senator for raising this issue. I have listened with some interest to what she has said. I note the question that was specifically put to me relates to whether the person in question can get funding under the springboard initiative. Therefore, my official reply will be restricted to that, but I will pursue it beyond the points raised by the Senator. Let me, however, read the note that has been provided for me.
Springboard is a specific initiative to provide 6,000 part-time higher education places targeted at unemployed people who have lost jobs in sectors where employment levels will not return and who will need new qualifications and skills to re-enter employment as the economy recovers. It is designed to support a return to employment for people who have lost their jobs as a result of the recession, and also to ensure that there is a better skills match between industry needs and higher education graduates. A competitive call for proposals under springboard issued in early 2011. It was open to public, private and not-for-profit higher education providers for programmes, which provide for awards between levels 6 and 9, on or aligned with the national framework of qualifications.
The tendering documentation for springboard was developed in close collaboration with the expert group on future skills needs and with input from industry representatives to ensure that programmes would be provided in areas where future employment opportunities are expected to arise. Detailed research by Forfás on skills areas where there are identified job opportunities and skills shortages in the economy accompanied the call.
No proposal was received from the institution concerned as part of the competitive tendering process to have the course, referred to by the Senator, funded under the scheme. It is therefore not possible to fund students on this course through the springboard initiative.
Having said that, the Senator has given a number of interesting details. In my background notes, I have some information on the person involved. I would be quite happy to determine whether we can explore the matter further. I would not want in any way to offer false hope in regard to it.
The dilemma is that the institution in question did not apply for the funding.
That is my understanding.
I will forward the case to the Minister in order that he can follow up on it. I would appreciate it if he would revert to me on it.
I have received the documentation from the Senator and will be in contact with her directly.
That is much appreciated.
Hospital Accommodation
I thank the Cathaoirleach and the Leader for forcing the Minister for Health, Deputy James Reilly, to come before the House. We welcome the Minister today but it is a shame that I, after 15 votes in this Chamber calling on him to present himself, had to threaten to walk out this morning if he did not.
The Senator should speak to the Adjournment matter.
That was not an unreasonable request; it was simply because he refused time and again to come to the House to talk about the issues of the day. His own colleagues were calling for this and we put the matter to a vote at least 15 times in this House. When I finally reached the end of my tether, I said I would withdraw from the House this evening if the Minister did not turn up. Other Ministers take the time to attend. I accept that a Minister will always have scheduling difficulties but when the Minister for Health did not appear, I had to make a stand. I thank my colleagues for being present today to support me because they also have issues in their constituencies that relate to the Minister which they would like to discuss. I know they will have an opportunity to do so.
On Monday there were 53 patients on trolleys in Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital in Drogheda. Considerable investment was made in the hospital by the last Government. There is a huge extension that provides first-class services if it can hold the number of patients who want to use those services. The Fianna Fáil Party and HSE were criticised, often justifiably, particularly by the current Minister, when there was a large number of patients on trolleys, but in the last general election the Minister promised the sun, moon and stars. I was with him on a platform in Navan where he promised the people of Drogheda and the north east in general that change would happen. In September 2010, under a Fianna Fáil Government and an independent HSE board, 331 patients spent time on trolleys in Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital. In September 2011, when the current Minister was in control of the HSE and after he had put his own officials on the board — I applaud him for taking control because it is important that the Minister have responsibility — 842 patients spent time on trolleys. This is scandalous. There has been an almost threefold increase in the number of patients on trolleys.
What will the Minister do about this? Given that I accept that he cares about patients and I care about patients in my area, the circumstances that obtain must not be allowed to continue. I have had family members in the accident and emergency department in the hospital regularly. This is inevitable when one has three children and a wife who plays football. They have received an excellent service but the staff are under severe pressure. People's lives and well-being are being put at risk. Other parties have submitted complaints to HIQA on this. We await its response with trepidation because, if any action is taken against the accident and emergency department in Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital, I do not know where we would go in case of emergency.
When the Minister sacked the board of the Health Service Executive, it was supposed to be the start of something radical and fresh that would make the lives of people different. We asked at the time what the changing of the faces on the board would mean for the ordinary person. It means that the ordinary person in the north east who is using the emergency services in the hospital is now three times more likely to spend time on a trolley.
It is too serious an issue on which to stifle debate. The Government parties in this House have stifled debate on health services time and again. I have worked out that this has occurred in 15 cases. Senator O'Keeffe often talks about cancer services in Sligo, rightly so, but every time we put these issues to a vote, nobody wants the Minister to come to the House to discuss them. While I am sorry I had to make my threat today, the Minister is welcome. I want to hear exactly what he will do about trolleys in the north east. We look forward to the improvements promised on foot of changing the board of the HSE. The new members are actually the Minister's staff and civil servants. The Minister is responsible; let us hear his answer.
I am delighted to be here. It is a bit rich for the Senator to make the statements he makes considering that the previous Government, which was in power for 14 years, left the country broke. It threw money at the health service without ever trying to reform it. Consequently, we are in the mess we are in.
The Minister opposed all the reforms we put in place.
I did not interrupt the Senator. As he has asked me to come here to talk to him, he might at least extend to me the courtesy of listening.
I stated previously that the waiting times for admission of patients attending emergency departments in many hospitals are unacceptable. I am determined to have this addressed. In this regard, we have established a special delivery unit and have assigned to it as a priority task the addressing of the issues arising in emergency departments. I have said on many occasions that, in respect of acute emergencies, one must start with the sickest people, namely, those waiting on trolleys in emergency departments, and then proceed to address the long waiting lists for inpatient treatment, after which one should tackle outpatient treatment.
The Senator must accept that one cannot turn a huge oil tanker like the health service around overnight. Years of dysfunctionality and mismanagement under successive Governments under the Senator's party's control have led us to the sad and sorry state we are in. Owing to our being left by the Fianna Fáil Government with a €70 million overrun in the hospitals and a wild overrun in the first three months of this year, with budgets way out of kilter, and our being in a financial morass, again left by the Fianna Fáil Government, we have to take nearly €1 billion from the health budget. On the back of these considerations, we must try to maintain a service and at the same time reform it. We are determined to do so and will do so. A special delivery unit is very important in this regard.
The clinical director and group general manager are fully engaged in the hospital in regard to scheduled and unscheduled care with the help of Dr. Martin Connor of the special delivery unit. In the short time he has been here, he has done something the Fianna Fáil Government never did, that is, shed some light on the matter and given us some information. Before now, we could not see what was happening in the hospitals. There were returns at the end of the year. We have put in place an information system that allows us to see and track patients daily in real time in our emergency departments. We can now track, in real time and on a weekly basis, the waiting list of each consultant. We can now do what we wanted to do. We can talk to people and hold them to account. If surgeon 1 has a waiting list of two months and surgeon 2 has a waiting list of two weeks, we will go down and have a little chat with surgeon 1. We will not send a cardiologist or administrator to talk to him but a surgeon. It is a case of like meeting like. We will help those concerned to address their problems, including through retraining, if necessary. If they are intransigent and refuse to change their ways, there will be consequences for them.
Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital is implementing a two-pronged approach to the overcrowding in the emergency department. First, it is working closely with the special delivery unit to improve capacity planning throughout the hospital. Second, it is actively engaged in the implementation of the HSE's national clinical care programmes, which will focus on extending hospitals' acute medical assessment unit facility.
Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital is operating a proactive, three-tiered response based on the level of overcrowding. In response to the numbers of patients who have presented at the emergency Department in the past week, the HSE has arranged additional theatre time in order to facilitate the treatment of additional surgical cases. Additional diagnostic capacity has been provided to allow the medical assessment unit to enable the provision of treatment and diagnostic capacity for ten spaces this morning for patients in the emergency department.
For the past week, the medical assessment unit and day ward have opened at night to accommodate the extra patients from the emergency department. The pathway of each patient is reviewed each morning by 8 a.m. and also at regular intervals throughout the day, particularly when the escalation policy to deal with this issue is in place. Additional ward rounds are also undertaken throughout the day and on-call physicians and surgeons are met to review their treatment plans for patients. Where blockages are identified, the hospital management engages with the relevant service to expedite the provision of this service for patients.
In the emergency department earlier today, there were 21 patients awaiting admission. When I rang at 4 p.m., there were 18. Further decreases in this number are expected during the course of the day.
While the issue of overcrowding and waiting times in emergency departments that are symptoms of broader hospital issues are a source of concern, it is important to note that when a patient comes into an emergency department, his or her treatment begins in accordance with the priorities identified by way of the triage process. Anyone requiring urgent care receives it.
I thank the Minister for coming to the House. The Minister referred to years of mismanagement. The reality is the clinical director and the group general manager are, in practice, the same people in which he now has trust. They are the people I always had trust in when the Minister's party was undermining them personally on local radio interviews in recent years. Every time they made a decision in the best interests of patients the Fine Gael, Labour Party and Sinn Féin spokespersons came on to undermine these individuals and doctors publicly and privately. Now, while the Minister is ascribing years of mismanagement to our Government, the managers whom the HSE trusted to do the job are the same people the Minister now trusts to do the job. I believe they are the right people but the Minister is putting the emphasis on the special delivery unit, SDU. He stated the hospital is working with the SDU. Those in the hospital should be allowed to get on with the job, under supervision from the HSE, the board and the Minister. I am unsure what the addition of a Civil Service structure will bring to it but it seems this is the case and the facts speak for themselves: there are almost three times as many people on trolleys since the Minister took power.
I reiterate that we must save €1 billion thanks to the economic mismanagement the Fianna Fáil Government engaged in. Against that background it is remarkably difficult to try to maintain the service and it is a challenge but it is one we are meeting. I will provide a flavour of how things are different with the special delivery unit. It is not what Senator Byrne describes at all. It is a key performance analytical machine that gives us the information to allow us to manage patients, the system and to identify where problems arise. We can discuss this hospital and other hospitals but we know there is a management deficit within the hospital system. Many excellent people were administrators promoted into management but they never got management skills or the training. The special delivery unit will help to support them and this is what it is there to do. We have no wish to get rid of managers or consultants who have a great deal of experience. We want to help them to change and get the skills they require to run our hospitals effectively.
I will finish with one point to demonstrate how things are different now. I asked the HSE how much money and how long would it take to put in place the information system we now have because I saw it working in Northern Ireland. I was told it could take 18 months and would probably cost €10 million. Dr. Martin Connor, people from inside the HSE, the Department and the NTPF have achieved this in 98 days at a cost of €250,000. This is the way forward, it is how we will change the way things are done in this country and it is why I have absolute faith in our people and our ability not only to fix the health service but to fix the economy and to put ourselves back in our rightful place internationally and throughout the world.
When does the Minister intend to roll out free breast cancer treatment to women over 65 years?
We are dealing with Adjournment matters, not questions to the Minister.
It is democracy.
Please be seated Senator. I forgot to acknowledge the Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly, and to thank him for attending the House.
Flood Relief
I am pleased to see the Minister for Social Protection here this evening. I know she is a woman of action and that she will do a superb job in her Ministry. I received a plea last week from Galway county councillor, Malachy Noone, on behalf of two of his constituents, Martin and Bernie Canniffe of Claregalway. During the winter of 2009 their house was flooded and they had to leave their home. They are still out of their home. I could not bear to think of it if this happened to me during the flooding of two years ago and I was still in rented accommodation. Our Minister, Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív, gave €4 million for this fund last autumn. I want to know why the case of Martin and Bernie Canniffe of Claregalway has not been resolved.
Since I know the area well personally, I am aware of the devastation the flooding caused, the considerable disruption that families suffered and how long it has taken for the area to begin to recover from the disastrous floods. I acknowledge Senator White's interest in the topic and I thank her for raising the matter. In recognition of the devastation suffered by people in many areas of the country as a result of the flooding from November 2009 onwards, the previous Government set up a humanitarian assistance scheme to provide income-tested financial support to people who have suffered damage to their homes not covered by insurance. The scheme had two objectives. First, it provided financial and other assistance without an income test in the immediate aftermath of the flooding. Second, it provided income tested financial support for the replacement of essential household items and home repairs in cases not covered by insurance. The community welfare service of the Health Service Executive, HSE, provided support for households under the humanitarian assistance scheme, with payments being made to more than 1,300 individuals to the value of almost €1.7 million throughout the country.
The bulk of the overall cost of repairing the damage caused to individuals' homes by the flooding was met through insurance policies held by the people affected. Most of the payments made under the humanitarian assistance scheme were in respect of immediate needs such as clothing, food, bedding and emergency accommodation needs. I am certain people remember what took place at the time. These emergency payments were made without delay and without regard to the household income because the primary objective was to address people's immediate needs. The level of payment available under the aid scheme to any qualified individual depended on the severity of the damage to that person's home and the extent of the loss experienced as well as household income and general family circumstances. The scheme provided hardship alleviation as opposed to full compensation.
As on previous occasions, commercial or business losses were not covered by the scheme nor were losses which were covered by household insurance. For various reasons, a small number of people have been unable to resume living at their home and others, while they have resumed living at their home, are still faced with significant problems arising from the flooding. It is also the case that some householders who continue to experience significant housing problems as a result of the November 2009 flooding are considering the possibility of relocating rather than returning to their original home.
In light of this, the previous Government decided in November 2010 that the Department of Social Protection could hold a provision of up to €4 million to assist up to 20 households towards relocation costs in situations with certain conditions. These conditions included that serious and permanent damage had been caused to the family home by the November 2009 flooding; that there is a high probability of a recurrence of serious flooding because of flood depth, duration or frequency on a scale that could further damage the family home; and that the house cannot be protected from flooding at an economically feasible cost. I understand that applies in several cases because if one knows the area one would be aware how prone it is to flooding. Another condition is that the household is unable to secure insurance against flooding as a result of the November 2009 floods. If people cannot get insurance afterwards, they remain in a difficult situation. Support will only be considered for relocation in cases where the cost of remedial works would exceed the cost of relocation, as determined by the Office of Public Works. The following considerations will also apply — the gross cost of relocation underpinning the level of support provided will not exceed the cost of providing a reasonable home in the area in question, as determined by the local authority; and the existing house must be demolished and the site must be rehabilitated, which may require planning permission from the local authority. I have no wish to outline why, unfortunately, in the case of some family homes on flood plains there is no real chance of preventing their being flooded in future if there are unusual levels of flooding and rain such as happened in 2009.
If the household has settled a claim with its insurance company, the funds provided in settlement of that claim will be taken into account in determining the funding, if any, provided for relocation. Beneficiaries will be required to instruct their insurance company to provide the information in the regard. The household of the person concerned and all the other households have been visited by departmental officials and reports of their individual circumstances have been completed. The Department has received a report from the Office of Public Works regarding the house of the person concerned and it expects to make a decision on the case in the coming weeks. We want to get people back to their homes but we also want to ensure when they return that they are in a home, which having been repaired, remediated or rebuilt will not be destroyed again quickly in another flood. I appreciate very much the stress for families. My officials have done a good job on this scheme and I hope they will complete it soon.
That is a satisfactory answer. I am pleased we will have a result in a few weeks.
Overseas Development Aid
I welcome the Minister of State. It is good that the Minister of State with responsibility for overseas development aid is taking this matter. That is an endorsement of the work we are trying to do in the House.
The Government has been proactive on international aid for many years and the people, going back generations, have willingly assisted people in the Third World and in other distressed areas. Many missionaries and lay people have travelled all over the world to help. This can never be quantified but it is heartening that, in spite of our economic difficulties, the State is still allocating 0.5% of GNP for overseas project. I acknowledge the goal is 0.7% of GNP which I hope, if buoyancy returns to the economy, we will achieve by 2015.
My concern for a long time has been that Ireland has signed up to the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, under which we must embrace the issue of equality for people with disabilities not only at home but overseas as well. As a country that is doing well overall, in spite of our difficulties, we have a responsibility to ensure the ethos of the convention is implemented domestically and in Third World countries. People with disabilities are more likely to enter poverty quickly and those who are poor are more likely to end with a disability through malnutrition and various other difficulties. I call on the Minister of State to examine in the upcoming White Paper on overseas aid the possibility of ring-fencing a greater percentage of our funding to ensure people with disabilities in the Third World benefit from the generosity of the Government and the people and to ensure NGOs working abroad using State aid build into their programmes projects for people with disabilities that promote equality and ensure the human rights of those with disabilities are protected.
Ireland has a good human rights record. Dr. Maurice Manning attended the House last week for an excellent debate in this regard. I do not seek an increase in the overall funding for overseas development aid because the country cannot afford it but I am seeking that the percentage of the current budget spent on projects for people with disabilities be increased. The public consultation process relating to the White Paper will take place early next year. I hope groups will make submissions and embrace the process and, ultimately, there will be a stronger, tighter and more concise structure to ensure what I am looking for is incorporated in the White Paper. I look forward to the Minister of State's reply.
I thank the Senator for raising the issue. I invite him and the disability rights organisations to make submissions on the White Paper review. The consultation process will take place between January and March next year and the review will conclude by next July. I welcome the concept of a rights-based approach.
I also welcome this opportunity to address the important issue of how our overseas development programme takes account of the needs of people with disabilities. Disabled people are more vulnerable to poverty and its effects than much of the rest of the population. In humanitarian emergencies, people with disabilities face additional risks as a result of dislocation and displacement and specific difficulties accessing services and support. The World Health Organization recognises that an effective response to disability has to be a complex one. Action is required across a diverse range of activities in order that disability can be prevented and disabled people are not excluded or exploited. This is the basis of Irish Aid's approach to disability.
Disability is one of a number of issues which are mainstreamed across all aspects of our long-term development programme. This means that the issues around disability are systematically considered in the design of development programmes and addressed in a multi-dimensional way. Examples of this approach include specific references to disability in Irish Aid's education and health policies and strategies. There is an emphasis on access by the disabled and other marginalised groups within our support to basic education in developing countries. We work with the governments in Zambia, Ethiopia and Uganda to ensure the inclusion of disability in a comprehensive social protection framework. In particular, we work for the provision of allowances to disabled people as a means of providing them with economic security, preventing them from falling into destitution and empowering them to participate and reach their potential in society.
We also work to ensure that services are provided to assist disabled people to deal with their particular disabilities and associated limitations. In this context, Irish Aid supports Irish development NGOs, such as Concern, GOAL, Trócaire, Christian Aid and Self Help Africa, all of which undertake health and human rights work that benefits disabled people. The aid programme also has an important partnership with the International Labour Organisation which focuses on assisting people with disability and advocating on legislation for disability in Africa. The partnership has a particular emphasis on disabled women and it also focuses on assisting people with disability to gain employment and set up their own businesses. This programme is regarded internationally as a leader in addressing disability issues in development.
In responding to humanitarian emergencies, Irish Aid takes particular care to address the specific needs of people with disabilities. This commitment is one of the guiding principles of our humanitarian relief policy. Acting on it during an emergency or humanitarian response requires the full involvement of people with disabilities in needs assessments and planning. We ensure this approach is adopted by Irish Aid itself and by our partner organisations. All our humanitarian interventions are guided by the standards set out in the Sphere handbook, the international best practice manual, based on the obligations under international humanitarian, human rights and refugee law. This makes specific references throughout to the need for people with disabilities to be fully taken into account in all emergency programming. Specific instances of the inclusion of disability in Irish Aid humanitarian programming include the stipulation last year following the Haiti earthquake that sanitation facilities, including latrines, should be designed to facilitate access by the disabled.
I assure the House and the Senator of the Government's full agreement that Ireland's official aid programme must address the needs of people with disabilities and actively promote the improvement of their quality of life. As a mainstreamed issue, disability benefits from resources directed across a range of long-term development programmes and emergency humanitarian action. This is in addition to specific funding provided for groups working directly on disability, which last year amounted to over €2 million.
We will continue to engage with our development and humanitarian partners to ensure that the needs of people with disabilities receive the high priority they deserve in the aid programme. I encourage the Senator to engage in the review of the White Paper.
I thank the Minister of State for that comprehensive reply. My purpose in raising this matter on the Adjournment was to ensure that it was given the necessary political weight. Next year will be an important one in terms of deciding our future in overseas development aid with the publication of the White Paper. I am putting down a marker that this country and the Government have an obligation to ensure that we invoke the principles of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities in all the work we do, and that includes development aid. I echo the Minister of State's sentiments and call on various disability groups that would be exercised in this regard to engage in the public consultation process as the end result will be important in terms of the future development of this programme.
Does the Minister of State have a ballpark percentage figure of the budget channelled specifically to projects involving people with disabilities? It is probably difficult to pin it down but do her officials have any ideas? Is it one third or 20%? Are any concrete figures available?
It is difficult to put a concrete figure on it. I have a figure that more than €6.5 million was provided since 2008 specifically for non-governmental organisations, NGOs, working with people with disabilities. They would be organisations such as Sightsavers, CBM Ireland and Children in Crossfire but there is also a Dóchas disability and development group, representatives of which I met last June. Dóchas is the umbrella body for the various NGOs. That is a useful group in advocating for the rights of people with disabilities in the programme.
It is difficult to put a figure on the exact percentage because so much of it is part of what is being done by particular organisations, and programmes in particular, but if we can get more accurate figures than that in terms of percentages I will forward them to the Senator. The rights approach is important in terms of both our national and international obligations and I will ensure that approach is maintained in the review of the White Paper.
I thank the Minister of State for attending.
The Seanad adjourned at 5.55 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 6 October 2011.