Adjournment Matters

School Transport Provision

Senator Mark Daly

I welcome the Minister of State. I raise this matter in the context of comments made by the Minister for Education and Skills to the effect that two and three-teacher schools should consider their future. According to the Minister, rural schools such as scoil naisiúnta Realt na Mara which is located next to Ardea post office in County Kerry and to which this matter relates do not have a future. The Minister is orchestrating a very slow and deliberate closure process for small schools throughout the country. This process involves cutting off the school transport system on an incremental basis. Over 60% of the students who attend scoil naisiúnta Realt na Mara will no longer have access to school transport because they live nearer to a particular school in Kenmare, which is in a different parish. As the Minister of State, Deputy John Perry, is aware, a school is the heart of a parish. Once a local school is closed down, a parish will slowly but surely wither away. Regardless of whether this is a deliberate policy, it will certainly result in the outcome to which I refer and will have a detrimental effect on rural areas if the Minister is allowed to persist with it.

Four bus runs are provided for in order that students from Killane and Dromuchty can travel to scoil naisiúnta Realt na Mara each day. The parents of these students have been informed that in the future they must attend the school in Kenmare to which I refer. School transport is being provided on a concessionary basis in some cases. I have two nephews who attend the school, one of whom is guaranteed transport, while the other - Dylan - is not and may be obliged to attend a different school in the future. What I have described is happening to children throughout the country. Scoil naisiúnta Realt na Mara is just one example of the consequences of the Minister's policy in this regard.

When the school in Douras and Lansdowne national school were closed, an amalgamation took place and scoil naisiúnta Realt na Mara was established as the central school. At the time there was an undertaking given to the effect that transport would be provided. The Department is now resiling from that undertaking. The school's future is, to put it mildly, in doubt. If school transport policy remains as it stands and parish boundaries continue to be broken, the school in Kenmare, namely, St. John's, which is an excellent school and has only just been opened will not have the capacity to deal with the additional pupils it will be obliged to accommodate.

I look forward to hearing the Minister of State's reply. I am sure he has encountered similar cases in his constituency.

Minister of State at the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation (Deputy John Perry)

I thank the Senator for raising this matter. To begin, I wish to give the House an outline of the extent of the school transport service. School transport is a very significant operation. It is managed by Bus Éireann on behalf of the Department of Education and Skills. School buses make journeys totalling 82 million km annually. In the region of 114,000 children, including more than 8,000 with special needs, are transported in approximately 4,000 vehicles on a daily basis to primary and post-primary schools.

A number of changes to the school transport scheme arising from recommendations made in the value for money report on the scheme were introduced by the previous Government in budget 2011. The changes at primary level related to the introduction of charges and changes to the closed school rule and the minimum numbers required to establish or maintain a service. The changes which are relevant to the school in question relate principally to the closed school rule. The Senator will be aware that, in the context of school transport eligibility, this rule was introduced in the 1960s and relates to circumstances where a primary school is either closed or amalgamated with another school. Under the rule, as it previously applied, where a primary school closed and amalgamated with another, pupils who resided in the closed school area were eligible for transport to the school of amalgamation, even though their place of residence might be less than 3.2 km from that school. Where a greater number of schools amalgamated, the central school rule applied. In such instances, transport was provided for children who resided not less than 1 mile or 1.6 km from the new central school. No time limit had been applied in respect of either rule. Consequently, the closed school rule had been in effect for over 40 years. Even in circumstances where there was actually a newer school closer to the child's home, transport eligibility was to the amalgamated school only. In such circumstances, the child was not eligible for transport to the newer school.

The practical consequences of the changes to the closed school rule are: distance is now the key eligibility criterion which applies; from the 2012-13 school year, pupils residing in a closed school area, for whom the amalgamated school is not their nearest school but who enrol in their nearest school, will be eligible for school transport, provided the 3.2 km requirement is met; and in the case of all future primary school amalgamations, eligibility will be based on the distance criteria which apply when the amalgamation takes place and attendance at the nearest school.

In the context of the Department of Education and Skill's planning of primary school infrastructure, school accommodation needs in each area are assessed on the basis of local demographic trends, current and projected enrolments, recent and planned housing developments and the capacity of existing schools to meet demand for places. The changes announced to primary school transport services are in line with this approach and will result in a more efficient and cost-effective scheme. While there will be a transitional period in which children in the same family or area may be eligible for transport to different schools, ultimately eligibility for school transport will be easier to determine and the scheme will be simpler and more transparent for families and schools.

It is important to note that eligible children who are already attending an amalgamated school will retain their transport eligibility in order to allow them. providing there is no change in their circumstances, to complete their education at that school. In cases in which families are not eligible for school transport, they may apply for transport on a concessionary basis, subject to a number of conditions detailed in the scheme. I am pleased to advise that the cost of concessionary tickets was reduced to €100 per annum by the Government from the commencement of the 2012-13 school year. This is the same charge as that which applies in respect of eligible tickets.

Given that the terms of the scheme are being applied equitably on a national basis, there is no scope for reversing the changes to which I refer. Under the four year recovery plan, there is a requirement to deliver savings of €17 million in the school transport budget and all of the measures I have outlined, including the changes to the closed school rule, are an integral part of this. It makes economic sense that, when fully implemented, the provision of school transport to the nearest school will reduce the overall cost of school transport services.

Senator Mark Daly

I thank the Minister of State for coming before the House and accept that this matter does not fall within his area of responsibility. Perhaps he might convey to those who wrote the reply he read - a Labour Party Senator referred to this on the Order of Business this morning - that I asked a specific question about a particular school. I did not receive a reply to that question; the reply only contains a one-line allusion to the school to which I refer. In the remainder of the reply phrases such as "In cases where families are not eligible for school transport, they may apply for transport on a concessionary basis" and "children in the same family or area may be eligible for transport to different schools" are used.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Brennan)

That information has already been given.

Senator Mark Daly

The Minister of State is aware of what those phrases mean. As a result of the Minister for Education and Skill's policy, families are going to be split up and siblings will be obliged to attend different schools. What we are talking about is parishes being allowed to wither away as a result of schools being closed. The reply from the Department falls very short in answering the question I asked. Perhaps the Minister of State might convey my feelings on the matter to the Minister. I am sure I could have obtained most of the information contained in the reply which the Minister of State was asked to read on the Minister's behalf on the Department's website. A reply to an Adjournment matter should relate to the specific question raised about a particular matter.

Acting Chairman (Senator Terry Brennan)

The Senator has made his point.

Senator Mark Daly

On the next occasion on which he meets the Minister for Education and Skills, perhaps the Minister of State might convey my views on the matter to him.

Deputy John Perry

I will convey the sentiments expressed by the Senator to the Minister.

School Staffing

Senator Thomas Byrne

Tá mé buíoch den Chathaoirleach as ucht an deis seo a thabhairt dom an t-ábhar seo a lua ar an Athló anocht. I raise the Department’s current position on the allocation of teachers to Ratoath junior national school. An unprecedented number of parents have been in touch with my colleague in Ratoath, Councillor Nick Killian, and a number of parents have been in touch with me. They are most concerned at a decision of the Department, which I believe is under review today, to remove a teacher from the school. What happened in Ratoath junior national school is that 470 names were on the school roll on the first day of term in September. Ten of those names were reported to the National Education Welfare Board for various reasons which resulted in the school numbers being 460, seven short of the teacher allocation required to maintain existing staff numbers. If the decision is upheld by the Department to remove a teacher based on the lower numbers, one teacher must go and one of five junior infants’ classes in the school must be reallocated to the other four classes. That is not fair. It is not right.

It is particularly unfair at this stage of the school year when children have settled into their classes if they have to be allocated to another class. That would also result in one class having at least 37 pupils and an empty classroom within the school. It might also have implications for next year in terms of whether the school would be in a position to take five classes. The school is already over the threshold for four classes in the coming year. It might not yet have reached five but it expects to do so. The school might not be able to take all of the pupils that wish to go to it next year. Therefore, if the decision is not reversed there might be pupils in Ratoath who are not accepted into the junior infants’ class in the school next year. The school has already lost four teachers in the areas of resource teaching and language support and is in danger of losing a fifth mainstream teacher.

One of the criteria used in assessing such decisions is whether the post relates to a mainstream teacher. I urge the Minister to take that into account and to take the particular circumstances of Ratoath into account. It is a growing area. The pupils are already six weeks’ into their school year. I urge him to please leave the teacher in place to give the children the best possible education.

Deputy John Perry

I thank the Senator for giving me the opportunity to outline for the House the position on the allocation of teaching posts to primary schools. The criteria used for the allocation of teachers to schools is published annually on the Department's website. The staffing schedule is the mechanism used for the allocation of classroom teachers to all primary schools. It operates in a clear and transparent manner and treats all similar types of schools equally, irrespective of location. The configuration of classes and the deployment of classroom teachers are done at local school level.

Classroom teachers are allocated under the staffing schedule based on the pupil enrolments for the previous 30 September. While mainstream staffing for any school year is based on the previous September's enrolment, there is a provision whereby schools experiencing rapid increases in enrolment can apply for additional mainstream posts on developing grounds, using projected enrolment. The retention of such posts in the current school year is subject to schools having achieved their projected enrolment on 30 September. If the enrolment is not achieved the post allocated on developing grounds is suppressed.

The staffing schedule also includes an appeals mechanism for schools to submit an appeal under certain criteria to an independent appeal board. Details of the criteria for appeal are contained in the staffing circular 0007/2012 which is available on the Department's website. The appeal criteria include provision for schools that have been granted a post under the developing school criterion. Such schools may lodge an appeal on the basis that the pupils that failed to enrol as projected by 30 September 2012 are likely to be enrolled by December 2012. A post allocated by the appeal board under this criterion will be sanctioned on a provisional basis, subject to confirmation of the required enrolment being achieved before 31 December 2012.

The school referred to by the Deputy had an enrolment of 442 pupils on 30 September 2011. As a consequence, the school's staffing for the 2012-13 school year is a principal and 16 classroom teachers. The school has an additional five support posts for learning and language support and resource teaching.

The school applied for a developing school post based on a projected enrolment of 478 pupils at September 2012 and this post was conditionally approved by the Department on 6 March 2012. However, I understand that the required projected enrolment was not achieved by 30 September. The school was therefore informed that the post was being suppressed in the normal manner. The school has appealed the decision to the primary staffing appeal board. The appeal board is holding its meeting today, 18 October, and it will consider the appeal from the school in question in this process. The board of management of the school will be notified of the outcome of the appeal as soon as possible. The appeal board operates independently of the Department and its decision is final. I thank the Deputy again for giving me an opportunity to update the House on the matter.

Senator Thomas Byrne

The Minister of State might bring to the attention of the Minister for Education and Skills and the appeal board that the figures indicated in the reply on pupil numbers are not those I was given by the principal this morning. I hope the Department has the correct figures. I will check the position immediately with the school.

My child started school this year in the junior infants’ class in another school in County Meath. I can only imagine the disruption that would be caused to her by having to move classes and perhaps having to go into a class with 37 pupils because of what might be an arbitrary decision by the Department. I urge the Department and the appeal board to take into account the factors I have raised on the school and the special circumstances that apply. The school has lost four teachers and is in a developing area. What is proposed is not fair on the small children involved.

Sugar Industry

Senator Darragh O'Brien

I thank the Minister for being present today as I am aware he is under pressure and has a series of meetings.

Minister for Agriculture, Marine and Food (Deputy Simon Coveney)

That is okay.

Senator Darragh O'Brien

I will not detain him. I apologise for the mix-up that occurred previously. The Minister is familiar with the plans and proposals on the rejuvenation and re-establishment of the Irish sugar industry and its potential for jobs.

Most independent people believe there is the possibility of creating 4,500 jobs over time in this industry time. We import 80% of our sugar from British Sugar. The Minister is entering into a phase of serious negotiations on the Common Agricultural Policy, CAP, reform. As the compensation scheme is due to end from 2015 I ask the Minister to give me an update on whether the Government is seeking 1% of the quota for Ireland. I read with concern today in the farming supplement in the Irish Examiner about a decision made by the European Union Commission to reduce the maximum target for crop-based biofuels and bio-liquids to 5%. Will that have any effect?

I heard the Minister say on RTE radio recently that he is broadly supportive of this move. It is a major opportunity for us. Thousands of people here are interested in it. It would provide an additional line to our farmers and those involved in tillage also, particularly in the event of inclement weather which we have experienced recently. We have grown sugar beet here. It can be done, and it would have the effect of reducing costs for many companies here that use sugar as a main part of their ingredients, both in the drinks industries and others, which import from other countries. I am interested to hear the Minister's views. Will this be part of the Government's negotiations on the CAP? I thank the Minister for attending.

Deputy Simon Coveney

I thank the Senator for raising the issue because it is relevant. There are many interests that for some time have been discussing whether it is possible for Ireland to start processing sugar again from sugar beet. As somebody who has driven many tractors and trailers with sugar beet into what was previously the Mallow factory, when I worked on a farm in Mallow, and on our farm at home for a while I have a good appreciation of how important the sugar industry is for the tillage sector as a break crop, a cash crop, a crop that does not rely on any payments and a crop that produces cash at a time of year when farmers want it, which is in the autumn in the build up to Christmas.

I have been as supportive as I can be of both feasibility studies that have been put together in the past six months from two different groups, both with a view to exploring the possibility of growing sugar beet for sugar processing in Ireland and putting a business case together for the redevelopment of a sugar processing sector. Both of those feasibility studies were impressive, and I spent quite some time talking through them and so on with both teams.

It is important for me to emphasise that if we are to have a sugar industry re-emerge here we must ensure that it is an industry built on solid foundations in terms of the financing of it and the business plan for it. It is something I would really like to see happen but the business case is the most important issue. My job as Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine is to ensure that if a business case can be made for spending the guts of €200 million or €300 million on putting a new processing facility in place Ireland has a quota to be able to produce sugar, if there is still a quota regime, or that we can move away from the limitations of a sugar quota regime within the European Union as soon as possible.

In 2005, when there was a fundamental change in EU sugar policy, Ireland got out of the sugar processing business and significant compensation was paid to encourage us to do that. I not want to go into the history of that but I had a big problem with it at the time.

Senator Darragh O'Brien

Me too.

Deputy Simon Coveney

That is history, but that compensation was paid for the remainder of the current sugar regime which ends in 2015.

The Commission proposal as part of the CAP reform is that we will abolish sugar quotas in the EU after 2015. That would leave Ireland, or anybody else who wants to process sugar, free to do so and take their chances on the open market. That will not happen, however, because there are very powerful countries in the EU which want to see a continuance of sugar quotas beyond 2015. As a realist I believe that is likely to happen, perhaps until 2017 or 2018, and therefore I have made the case, both on and off the record, to the Commissioner in Council meetings and outside them that if we are to move a sugar quota regime beyond 2015 countries like Ireland, which is trying to put a case together for processing sugar again, should be facilitated in doing that if there is to be an increase in EU sugar quotas, which I believe there must be because there was a big sugar shortage last year.

In terms of the calculation for the people who are trying to put this case together and who have gone a long way in terms of getting investors, picking a suitable site and talking to farmers about their capacity for producing sugar, a great deal of work has gone on in this area and much credit is due to a number of people, in particular Michael Hoey from Country Crest and others who have shown leadership in this area. They need to know that Government is supportive of them in terms of trying to access quota for them but, ultimately, they will have to make the numbers add up in terms of making this work. That is possible. The rule of thumb is that if the price of processed sugar globally remains over €500 a tonne, the feasibility studies suggest that this is a viable proposition even given the capital expenditure that is required to build that processing facility.

The judgment call that must be made, however, is the impact on world sugar prices when quotas are lifted in the EU, potentially after 2015, 2017 or 2018, and whether there will there be a significant increase in production of sugar across the European Union which may reduce the actual price of processed sugar internationally because it is very difficult to compete in Europe with sugar that has been processed from sugar cane in Brazil, for example, just as it is difficult to compete with sugar cane on a series of other levels from an ethanol perspective as well.

My view is that my job is to be supportive of the people who are working hard to make a business case for a sugar processing and ethanol and biofuel operation around that and to support them in that but also to ensure that if and when that happens, it is built on solid foundations that will last for decades rather than being an industry that starts with a lot of positivity but cannot keep going because it is unable to compete with other parts of the world. There is a series of issues at play here but the fact that we are even talking about this and that people have put a significant amount of time and money into putting together very credible feasibility studies is a significant step in the right direction.

Senator Darragh O'Brien

I thank the Minister for his commitment to this issue and I know he will be open to any further queries or ideas we may have on it. It is clear from his comprehensive response that not only does he fully understand but he fully appreciates the potential for jobs within this industry and for a reduction in costs. I thank him for taking the time out of his schedule today to come here; I know he had to leave a meeting to attend. I look forward to talking to him about it again in the very near future.

Deputy Simon Coveney

I will keep the House updated if there are any significant changes in policy.

The Seanad adjourned at 2.40 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 23 October 2012.

Seanad Éireann debate - Thursday, 18 Oct 2012