Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 30 Jan 2013

Vol. 220 No. 7

Adjournment Matters

Courts Service

Senator Kathryn Reilly

I welcome the Minister of State to the House. The Courts Service is embarking on a detailed evaluation of District Court locations and in County Cavan specifically, it is looking at Virginia and Ballyconnell. In the event of a decision to close either of these venues, business will be moved to Cavan town. I believe there were approximately 240 District Curt venues when the Courts Service was originally established in 1989. There have been some court closures in the past and now it seems there will be more. If the District Courts at Ballyconnell and Virginia are closed there will be a logistical expense involved in getting local gardaí from their stations to Cavan town. It will also mean that the gardaí will be away from the communities in which they are based for longer periods of time.

This was highlighted by a District Court judge. There would also be listing problems in that logistical difficulties could emerge as a result of courts operating from the one venue, which could necessitate dedicated days being reserved for particular areas. It is important that those who have to travel to courts from rural areas can do so and that they have access to justice.

It is hard to understand the rationale for the closure of Virginia courthouse. While there is a separate Garda division based in Bailieborough, a large number of big towns are being served by that catchment area. In addition, as it is on the commuter belt there has been a large influx of people into the towns of Kingscourt, Bailieborough, Ballyjamesduff, Kilnaleck and Mullagh. The courthouse was extensively renovated in 2009 and the number of cases taken there since its reopening have increased annually. I understand that in 2011 alone approximately 3,000 cases were heard. It is a busy courthouse, which is IT friendly, includes a consultation room and provides wheelchair access but does not have cells. However, neither does the courthouse in Cavan, to which the service may be relocated.

I believe there is a disconnect between the Courts Service and Minister for Justice and Equality in terms of the review and the courts proposed to be closed. The closure of these small rural courthouses, in particular Virginia courthouse, without the provision of adequate alternative services, other than relocating them to Cavan town, will be negative in terms of accessibility. Common complaints in regard to previous closures include the significant expense and difficulty travelling to the nearest court, including the cost of petrol, in particular to Ballyconnell courthouse in respect of which public transport is limited and is not aligned with court opening hours, and that individuals attending courts may have to pay for accommodation and food and take time off work. A direct consequence in some courthouses as a result is that defendants are not turning up for hearings, resulting in adjournments and the expense of further arrangements. The reduction in access to justice by way of closure of some of these District Court courthouses is not the best way to improve justice outcomes in the communities concerned. Access to courts is essentially access to justice. The vulnerable communities served by these courts need access to justice to ensure confidence in the system.

I have seen the criteria being used in terms of the review. I am concerned about the closure of the District Court in Virginia in particular.

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Kathleen Lynch)

The Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, is unable to be here today and has asked me to convey his thanks to the Senator for raising the matter.

The Minister appreciates the concern of people, especially legal practitioners, in relation to closure of smaller court venues. However, under the provisions of the Courts Service Act 1998, management of courts is the responsibility of the service and the Minister has no role in this decision. The 1998 Act provides that the Courts Service is independent in the performance of its functions which, of course, include the provision, maintenance and management of court buildings. In the current financial climate the service has been obliged to review all aspects of its organisational and operational structures throughout the country, with the specific objective of ensuring that it can continue to maintain the delivery of frontline court services and an appropriate level of service to court users. The Minister has been informed that no court venue has been singled out or indeed exempted from the review process. A comprehensive review of all venues has recently been completed, the purpose of which was to establish a general framework within which venues could be considered for closure, taking into account a range of criteria such as caseload, proximity to an alternative venue, physical condition of the building, availability of holding cell facilities, etc. The likely impact on other justice agencies, such as An Garda Síochána and the Irish Prison Service, is also taken into account.

The Minister is informed that the review identified a range of venues nationwide which based on the criteria applied, could be considered for closure, subject to a detailed assessment and the preparation of a business case in respect of each identified venue. It is worth noting that since its establishment in 1999, the Courts Service has amalgamated over 150 venues while, at the same time, the service has benefited from a very substantial capital investment to upgrade larger county town courthouses, including in Cavan town. The policy has been very successful, resulting in a more efficient use of time for the Judiciary, court users and gardaí. Rather than short sittings in the smaller venues, a full day's list can be dealt with which leads to reductions in delays in the District Court.

The Senator has inquired about courthouses in Cavan in particular. The service has stated that two venues in County Cavan, Ballyconnell and Virginia, have been identified as venues that should be considered for closure, subject to a detailed assessment and, as mentioned, the preparation of a business case. The standard courthouse requirements includes basic facilities such as consultation rooms, victim support facilities and holding cells for prisoners which are essential to ensure public safety and efficient use of Irish Prison Service resources. It should also be noted that the service has advised that the identification of venues as part of the review process does not necessarily mean that the identified venues will close, as each identified venue will be subject to a rigorous examination.

I can confirm that the Courts Service board will take no decision on the future of either Ballyconnell or Virginia as District Court venues without full prior consultation with local interested parties and court users. I am informed that the consultation process in respect of both venues commenced on 7 January 2013, with a closing date for submissions on Friday, 4 February. The service has assured the Minister that the views expressed in the process will be taken into account in the decision-making process. However, as stated, the final decision in this matter will be for the Courts Service board. I thank the Senator for raising the matter. I appreciate her interest in the administration of justice in County Cavan. I know that she will understand the need for the Courts Service to take the measures necessary to promote greater efficiency in the courts and I hope the constructive engagement involving the Courts Service will result in reasoned and appropriate decisions being made on the venues concerned.

Child Protection

Senator Jillian van Turnhout

I thank the Minister of State for coming to the House to take this Adjournment matter. In February last the Independent group tabled a Private Members' motion in the Seanad seeking to block child abuse material on the Internet, at which time the Minister for Justice and Equality gave a clear commitment that the matter would be fully considered in the context of the proposed Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Bill.

I note from the Government's legislative programme for the spring session of 2013 that while publication of the Bill is expected in 2013 it is listed in section C, along with 12 other justice and equality Bills, as a Bill in respect of which the Heads have yet to be approved by the Government. I am concerned the matter is not receiving the urgency I would like. Furthermore, the impending transposition deadline of the 18 December 2013 for the relevant EU directive on the sexual abuse and exploitation of children and child pornography adds greater urgency to this debate.

The Minister of State will be aware of a number of recent cases which highlighted the alarming and disturbing volume of child abuse material circulating within this jurisdiction. One such Irish case pertains to a recent criminal prosecution for child pornography involving 135,555 images and videos showing severe child sex abuse in Ireland, including bondage, cruelty and bestiality. A child abuse image is a crime scene. It is a digital record of sexual abuse being perpetrated against a child. Directive 2011/92/EU of the European Parliament and Council of 13 December 2011 combatting the sexual abuse and exploitation of children and child pornography and replacing the Council framework decision needs to be in place in Ireland by December 2013. I refer the Minister of State to Article 25 of that directive. Among the wide-ranging provisions in relation to criminal offences and sanctions in the area of sexual abuse and exploitation of children, the directive requires all EU member states to take the necessary measures to ensure the prompt removal of any web pages containing or disseminating child abuse material hosted on servers within their jurisdiction.

With appropriate safeguards, the directive also permits member states to take measures to block access to Internet users within their territories of web pages containing or disseminating child abuse material hosted on servers outside their jurisdictions. While Ireland has arrangements in place to secure the removal of child abuse material on domestic servers and to report materials found outside the jurisdiction via the INHOPE network, Ireland has not sanctioned a system that would allow the same material hosted overseas to be blocked where its removal proves difficult or takes an unreasonable length of time.

I put it to the Minister of State that, in transposing this EU directive, we have the opportunity to legislate for the blocking of child abuse material, bringing us into line with a number of our European partners - Denmark, Finland, Sweden, Italy, Malta, the UK and France, which has just passed legislation but does not yet have its provisions in place. We need legislation and a victim identification database. We must underpin existing measures to ensure the removal of material. We must direct Irish Internet service providers to put in place a blocking system where removal proves difficult or is likely to take an unreasonable length of time.

I am conscious of my time. The Minister for Justice and Equality's record on child protection is exemplary. While he was in opposition, I had the pleasure to work with him on many issues in my role in an NGO. However, the Internet service providers are lobbying strongly not to impose blocks. Having considered the matter, I believe that we should block. My purpose in raising this matter today is to give it urgency and to ensure that we block.

Deputy Kathleen Lynch

The Senator worked closely with the current Minister and I am glad that she recognises his commitment and that he is not someone who is easily swayed, regardless of the lobby group involved.

On the Minister's behalf, I thank the Senator for raising this most important and sensitive matter. He recalls a useful debate in the House almost one year ago when the Senator last raised this topic. She seeks an update on the progress being made in transposing Directive 2011/92/EU.

I have only a limited time available to me, but the Minister wanted to address an impression that may be conveyed by the opening lines of the motion. They suggest there is a large quantity of child abuse material in circulation. Of course, any quantity is too much, but the suggestion of large quantities is at variance with recent reports from Hotline.ie. Its most recent annual report for 2011 indicated that the level of validated reports of illegal content remained modest, which the Minister understands continues to be the case.

We can be thankful that increased vigilance and surveillance have meant that the circulation of child abuse imagery has become less overtly visible on the Internet, although I am never sure about whether this is actually good. There is less likelihood of the inadvertent viewing of such material by the general public. It is well known that there are levels of circulation of such material that are not amenable to surveillance, but those involved are subject to regular targeting by crime prevention agencies, including the Garda.

Turning to the directive, the deadline for transposition is 18 December. The Minister's Department has been conducting a review of the law on sexual offences generally. This includes an examination of the measures required to implement a number of international legal instruments, one of those being the EU directive. This work is close to completion and the Minister expects to bring a draft general scheme to the Government shortly for approval to have the necessary legislation drafted. The Senator will appreciate that, until the proposals are considered by the Government, the Minister is constrained in what he can say concerning their precise content. However, they will constitute wide-ranging legislation to implement the recommendations of two Oireachtas committees, facilitate full compliance with the criminal law provisions of relevant EU, UN and Council of Europe instruments, reform the Sex Offenders Act 2001 and enhance the protection of children against sexual exploitation, including child pornography.

Regarding the specific issue of blocking of websites containing child pornography in accordance with Article 25, paragraph (2) of the directive, the Minister can inform the House that his officials are engaged in discussions with the Garda and representatives of the Internet service providers on this matter. These are the key players in implementing any arrangement to give effect to that paragraph. The Minister knows that they are fully committed to doing whatever is required to prevent the Internet from being used for the viewing and distribution of child pornography. However, there is still some way to go in the current discussions and he is not in a position at this time to say definitively what measures can be put in place or their form.

As the Minister stated when the Seanad last debated this issue, the Internet is a global phenomenon, with no single organisation controlling it. International co-operation is vital in combating illegal activities, particularly in view of the rapid rate of technological innovation. The Minister is pleased that Ireland is one of 48 countries that signed the global alliance against child sexual abuse online, which was launched in December 2012. This is a joint EU and US initiative and aims to reduce as much as possible the availability of child pornography online. This is an example of how the international community can marshal its resources to defeat this heinous business.

I look forward to hearing from the Senators and will be paying close attention on behalf of the Minister to the opinions expressed. It has always been my opinion that it is only with international co-operation that one can do anything about these issues. We have the benefit of being a member state of the EU and we should use our membership to its fullest extent.

Senator Jillian van Turnhout

Next week will see the tenth annual safer Internet day. The Minister of State questioned the reference in my opening lines to a large quantity in circulation, but just one case-----

Deputy Kathleen Lynch

It would be too much.

Senator Jillian van Turnhout

-----involved 135,555 images and videos. How many children in Ireland are we talking about? Please, let us not quibble over figures. Since Hotline.ie does not advertise, the public do not know that they can report cases. The countries that block can report how many hits per day those sites receive. I would accept this measure. Time and again, Internet service providers argue that it should be down to the country of source. In that case, why not review our drugs policy? Let us go to the country of source. Let us not put up any customs control. This does not make sense. We block drugs coming into the country. Why do we not block child abuse material? The same logic applies. We are discussing children's lives.

I am happy to work on this issue and I realise the Minister's commitment, but I also realise that there is a strong lobby. I want an equally strong lobby on this side to argue that blocking is the answer.

Deputy Kathleen Lynch

I will be brief. There is no disagreement on this issue. Even if some disagree, they would not have the courage to argue in public. We need to do something as quickly as possible. Unfortunately, we must go through a process. The Minister is as committed to this matter as the Senator.

Senator Jillian van Turnhout

I have no doubt of that.

Garda Stations Closures

Senator James Heffernan

I thank the Minister of State for attending the Chamber and facilitating this debate. Tomorrow, the Garda station in Kilfinane, my home town, will close its doors for the last time. I wish to put on record the community's praise for and thanks to Niall McInerney, our local garda, for his service for the past number of years. Along with Kilfinane, the stations in Galbally, Castletown, Kilmeady and Tournafulla will close their doors for the last time.

I am disappointed by this decision and the way it was announced. The Minister for Justice and Equality tried to sweep it under a difficult budget and hoped that it would go unnoticed. It was a sneaky move.

I do not understand the reasoning behind the decision. For example, €75,000 was recently spent on renovating Galbally Garda station. In my home town, a site had recently been acquired for a new state-of-the-art station. I do not have an iota of a clue as to what has changed since then. The Minister of State has spent time with communities.

Therefore, she has been being involved with them. She knows that decision will be a confidence blow to rural communities whose members are struggling in the current climate. If one walks up the main street of any small town, one will note that businesses are under pressure, some have closed down and buildings have been left unoccupied. This move will make the elderly and those who live in isolated areas feel much more vulnerable. It is a blow to the morale of the members of the Garda, whose morale is already at a pretty low ebb. The only winners in all of this are the likes of the two shysters that I followed from Kilfinane to Ballyorgan the other day after getting a tip-off from a neighbour that these men were on their way under the guise of cleaning garden paths for a good price and clearing gutters. I never saw people come to clear gutters without a ladder and they did not have one. I got the number that was given and like any good citizen I telephoned my local Garda station and gave the garda on duty the number. When I travelled back the road and called into my neighbours, a number of whom live alone, to see if they were okay, one old woman in particular who lives a few houses up from me, was terrified when I knocked on her door because she thought these men had come back again.

If I was to telephone my local garda in Kilfinane and say "Niall, these guys are on the beat, can you come and sort it out", he would have been there in a matter of moments but now he has been moved somewhere else down the road and I have to call a central station and they will send out a patrol car. The Minister of State may know the area stretching from Bruff to the borders of County Cork in Kildorrery and now by the time it will take a garda to come out to my area, those men will be gone to the hills, never to be seen again.

I am told by some people and by members of the Garda Síochána that it cost approximately €2,000 a year to run these stations and cover the cost of heating and lighting. If one takes into account the five stations in County Limerick, it would cost €10,000 a year to run them. That is the price of a secondhand car and such provision would give local people confidence and a sense of safety in their homes.

I do not know what is the contingency plan and what is going to be left. We will have imposing buildings in small towns that will be vacated and become a haven for rats, for anti-social behaviour. I do not understand what consultation was carried out. Was there consultation in the Department with the senior Minister? I was assured last year when this move was first mooted that a number of these stations would not be closed but now they being closed.

Acting Chairman (Senator Pat O'Neill)

The Senator has one minute remaining.

Senator James Heffernan

I will conclude shortly. It is just that I am annoyed about this.

Acting Chairman (Senator Pat O'Neill)

I know but the Senator will have time to ask a supplementary question. He has been speaking for nearly five minutes.

Senator James Heffernan

I will not delay the House much longer. Was this decision made by a Minister who does not have a clue about what is happening in rural Ireland, who is so detached from the realities of what is going on there that he does not give a damn? He seems to have made this decision so flippantly that this is what it leads me to believe. Has the Minister ever been to these communities to see what is going on? I do not believe he has.

Acting Chairman (Senator Pat O'Neill)

I ask the Senator to conclude.

Senator James Heffernan

I await the Minister of State's reply and I thank her for being here.

Deputy Kathleen Lynch

On behalf of the Minister I would like to again express our deep sadness at the brutal murder of Detective Garda Adrian Donohoe. It is an opportunity also to express our deep gratitude to the Garda Síochána. It is only when a tragic event like this occurs that we realise the difficulties they face and the risks they take on our behalf every day. This was unusual but nevertheless the consequences are enormous for Detective Garda Donohoe's family and our deepest sympathies go to his immediate family and his wife and children who will feel his loss more than anyone else.

The Minister has asked me to thank the Senator for raising this matter of significant public importance as it provides me with an opportunity to set out in clear and unambiguous terms the rationalisation of the Garda station and districts network. In 2012, 39 Garda stations were closed, eight of which had not been open for a number of years. Their closure was a paper exercise which simply recognised reality, a reality concealed by the Minister's immediate predecessor. Many more were only one or two-member stations. This year, following a comprehensive assessment by the Garda Commissioner of the Garda station network, a further 100 are listed for closure in the Commissioner's Policing Plan for 2013. Prior to the closures which took place last year, the Garda station network was essentially the same as the Royal Irish Constabulary network in 1922. Such a large-scale static deployment of resources is no longer appropriate in the present day where the transport and communications infrastructure have been transformed beyond recognition. The Garda Síochána has a class-leading police computer system, a state-of-the-art digital radio system, and a transport fleet which is currently receiving significant investment. The new Garda roster currently being piloted provides a better match between Garda availability and policing demands.

All of these developments enable the Garda Síochána to be more mobile and flexible, and to deliver a more effective policing service. We also must be honest about the level of policing service that was capable of being provided from the stations that were and are to be closed. Of the 100 stations to be closed in 2013, 98% are open part-time, 94% are open for three hours a day or less, 88% are served by one garda, and only 5% are served by three or more Garda personnel. The objective is to maximise the time our well-trained and highly skilled gardaí spend on operational duties.

After the closures in 2013 - the majority of those to close will close on 31 January 2013 - there will still be 564 Garda stations in the State. That is still significantly more than in comparable jurisdictions such as Northern Ireland, where there are 86 stations with a population of 1.5 million people, or Scotland, where there are approximately 340 stations for a population of 5.2 million. Are the naysayers seriously suggesting that we should act as if time had stood still since 1922?

Commissioner Callinan has stated that the revised structures will continue to support the Garda community philosophy through the clustering of services at policing hubs. This centralisation of services will facilitate the introduction of enhanced patrolling arrangements which in turn will provide increased Garda visibility as well as maintaining existing Garda links with communities throughout the country. The objective will be to ensure that the best possible policing service will continue to be provided to our communities.

In addition, An Garda Síochána has recently acquired a number of vehicles which are being converted into mobile Garda offices and it is planned that they will be assigned to areas where Garda stations have been closed to ensure that members of the public can continue to conduct their business and interact with members of An Garda Síochána. Gardaí continue to work closely with all communities to enhance community safety through a wide range of local fora such as Community Alert and Neighbourhood Watch. Neither the Minister nor this Government will shirk in our responsibility to do everything we can to ensure that the connection with the community is not broken and that the best possible resources are made available to An Garda Síochána. The Minister is confident that members of An Garda Síochána will continue to provide a professional policing service across the country in a manner that is effective, efficient and consistent with the highest standards for which the force is renowned.

Senator James Heffernan

I thank the Minister of State for her reply but I do not believe that she believes what is in that reply. We all know that times have changed but how can we possibly maximise a garda's time by taking him or her from the station in a local community where he or she was doing a job among people he or she knew and putting him or her in another station a few miles down the road? How is that a maximum use of his or her time?

Policing has not changed. It relies on good, solid information and that can only be got from knowing the people one is working with in a community, knowing their families and everything about them. A garda involved in a local area knows the people in that area inside out. He or she can stop crime before it ever becomes an issue. I cannot understand how we can maintain a strong connection with the community by closing down rural Garda stations. It does not make sense.

Deputy Kathleen Lynch

Policing has changed and good police work has changed dramatically and significantly, and for the better.

To say it has not does a disservice to the Garda. The mechanisms by which the force gathers information have changed and the service cannot continue as it is without taking a serious look at how best to use a talented and well trained police force. There will be difficulties and it is not as if the force will not change in the future. Perhaps alterations need to be made and that will be taken into account but this is not being done on a whim by one person. This is very much a process on which there has been massive consultation and the Commissioner believes this is the best way to proceed. Communications and mobility have improved and all these factors must be taken into account. We cannot ignore the significant innovations that have taken place in all our lives. Innovations have been adapted to suit the needs of our police force.

The Seanad adjourned at 8.05 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 31 January 2013.