Adjournment Matters

Pupil-Teacher Ratio

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill

Baineann sé seo le scoil aon-oide - Scoil Cholmcille ar Oileán Thoraigh. Is é príomhoide na scoile an t-aon mhúinteoir amháin sa scoil. Chomh fada agus a bhaineann sé leis an Roinn Oideachais agus Scileanna, is é an príomhoide an t-aon duine atá istigh sa scoil ó lá go lá ar bhonn lánaimseartha. Dúirt cathaoirleach an bhoird bhainistíochta, an tAthair Seán Ó Gallchóir, go bhfuil sé seo ag teacht salach ar gach dea-chleachtas maidir le cúram páistí. D'iarr an bord bainistíochta ar an Roinn an dara duine - múinteoir nó cúntóir teanga - a cheadú, ach ní raibh aon toradh ar na hiarrachtaí sin. Tháinig an cheist chéanna aníos anuraidh. Tá lucht bhord bainistíochta na scoile chomh cinnte go bhfuil an dara duine ag teastáil sa scoil go gcuireann siad an dara cúntóir ar fáil amach as a gciste airgid féin. Tá ceist chúram leanaí anseo. Tá a fhios agam gur ghlac na daoine leis an mholadh a chur an Rialtas os comhair phobal na hÉireann i reifreann na bliana seo caite chun cearta a thabhairt do leanaí na hÉireann.

Tá Scoil Cholmcille bunaithe ar Oileán Thoraigh, 11 mhíle déag amach ó chósta Dhún na nGall. Níl aon deis eile ag na páistí seo ach freastal a dhéanamh ar an scoil sin. Dá bhrí sin, níl an scoil nó an bord bainistíochta sásta nach bhfuil siad in ann an dara oide a fháil ón Roinn. Tuigim go bhfuil roinnt scoileanna eile ar fud an Stáit sa suíomh céanna agus a bhfuil an scoil seo; sé sin, nach bhfuil ach aon oide ann. Measaim go trom gur chóir go mbeadh dualgas ar an Roinn Oideachais agus Scileanna beirt mhúinteoirí, ar a laghad, a chur ar fáil i gcónaí.

This matter refers to Scoil Cholmcille on Oileán Thoraigh, which is a one-teacher school with 11 pupils. It is totally unacceptable the Department of Education and Skills does not approve a classroom assistant or second teacher for such schools. The school is on an island with a population of approximately 160 people, 11 miles off the Donegal coast. As many as 20 other schools in the State have only one teacher. It is not the right practice from a child safety and protection point of view or from the point of view of the educational advancement of the children. It is incompatible that one teacher is expected to teach eight classes in one school building.

Tá súil agam gur féidir leis an Aire Stáit rud éigin a dhéanamh faoi seo. Tá achainí déanta ag príomhoide an bhoird bhainistíochta chuig an Roinn le déanaí ag lorg go mbeidh an dara múinteoir curtha ar fáil. Tuigtear dom nach bhfuil ach roinnt bheag de na scoileanna seo ar fud na tíre. Costas beag a bheadh i gceist an dara post a chur ar fáil sna scoileanna seo. Tá súil agam gur féidir é sin a dhéanamh sula rachaidh na páistí seo ar ais ar scoil i mí Mheán Fómhair.

Minister of State at the Department of Education and Skills (Deputy Ciarán Cannon)

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Seanadóir as an deis a thabhairt dom léiriú a thabhairt don Seanad ar an suíomh maidir le foirne i mbunscoileanna agus inár scoileanna oileáin ach go háirithe. Caitheann mo Roinn go cóir agus go cothrom le scoileanna nuair atá acmhainní á leithdháileadh chucu. Déantar é seo ar bhealach trédhearcach ag baint úsáide as critéir atá foilsithe. Leithdháiltear acmhainní teagaisc chuig scoileanna ar bhonn scoilbhliana.

The criteria used for the allocation of teachers to schools are published annually on the Department's website. The key factor for determining the level of staffing resources provided at individual school level is the national staffing schedule for the relevant school year and the specific pupil enrolments in the school in question on the previous 30 September. The staffing schedule sets out in a very fair and transparent manner the pupil thresholds for the allocation of mainstream classroom posts for all schools.

Special arrangements exist for island schools and these arrangements take account of the circumstances that arise in providing education in an island setting. This special provision means that unlike the generality of schools, in the event a reduction in the pupil numbers of an island school will result in the loss of the second or third classroom teaching post in the school, the post may be retained subject to certain pupil retention levels. In the case of the second mainstream post, the total number of pupils must be at eight or above and the school must be the only primary school remaining on the island. In all other two-teacher schools the number of pupils required to retain a second teacher is 17, which is significantly above the number which applies to island schools. This shows the favourable staffing arrangements already in place for primary schools which are the only school on an island.

The pupil enrolment in Scoil Cholmcille on Tory Island for 30 September 2012 was nine pupils. This compares with six pupils in both 2010 and 2011. Under the published staffing schedule the staffing level in the school for the 2013 to 2014 school year will remain at one mainstream teacher. In addition, the school also receives part-time teaching support of five hours learning support per week for its nine pupils.

In addition, the school also receives part-time teaching support of five hours learning support per week for its nine pupils. At a time of great strain on our public finances, we must ensure the very valuable, but limited, resources available to us are used in the best way possible. Unlike most other areas of the public service, teaching vacancies are being filled in accordance with published Department criteria. In fact, we are recruiting almost 900 new teachers this year alone. Within the constraints of the employment control framework, schools are permitted to fill teaching vacancies that arise within their approved staffing allocations and island schools have received special consideration historically when enrolment levels fall below thresholds which mean the loss of that second teacher. Those special considerations remain in place and those arrangements have not changed.

Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire Stáit. Ní fheictear dom cén fáth nach bhfuil an Roinn sásta an dara oide a cheadú sa chás seo. The school meets the Department's minimum criteria of, currently, having 11 pupils and, from September this year, having nine pupils but according to the Minister of State, in the case of the second mainstream post, the total number of pupils in an island school must be eight or above where the school is the only primary school remaining on the island. That is the case in this particular school. Why can it not obtain a second teacher because it would appear to meet the criteria set down by the Department?

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

I was quite confused by that as well. The situation is that if the school has an existing second teacher, it must have that minimum number to retain that teacher. However, if the teacher is lost to the school, it requires substantially more than nine pupils - I cannot recall the exact figure - in order to regain that post. The figure for retention of the teacher and the figure to gain a new post over and above are two different figures. That is the situation that has applied over many Governments and it remains the case.

Medical Card Eligibility

Senator John Kelly

I am disappointed that the Minister for Health or one of the Ministers of State at the Department of Health is not taking this important issue but I appreciate they are in the Dáil on business and are unavailable. This issue relates to the changes in the eligibility criteria for medical cards which took place behind the scenes and of which I was not made aware. When I telephoned the PCRS I was told the changes were implemented under the legislation which dealt with the medical card guideline changes for the over 70s. I read that legislation and they are not in it, although if they are, they are definitely well buried.

In any case, heretofore, people were allowed to write off car loans for the purposes of qualifying for a medical card. It is a noose around one's neck to have to get a car loan to get a car to go to work and not a luxury. All of a sudden the PCRS has scrapped allowing people to write off car loans. Recently, it seems to have scrapped allowing people to write off home improvement loans. During the good times, these loans were thrown at people willy-nilly by the banks. People were sucked into a false sense of security but they still have to repay these loans. I also noticed the €50 car allowance granted to people with a car for the purpose of going to work is gone. That was there to allow for depreciation.

People are losing medical cards left, right and centre because of changes to the criteria. They are being deprived of medical cards from health and financial perspectives. I do not know who is making the decisions. Is it the Minister or the HSE? Does the Government realise the damage it is doing to these people? If somebody is on social welfare, he or she will qualify for a medical card even though the social welfare rate is in excess of the medical card guidelines. However, when one factors in all of the payments middle income earners have - cars for going to work, car loans, home improvement loans, mortgages and creche fees which the PCRS has played around with in that it does not accept certain types of childminders - they are taking home less than those on social welfare. They are really being hit by decisions such as this.

I have no doubt the Minister of State's reply has been written by the HSE and it will probably state that 43% of the people have medical cards but I can tell him that in 1980, some 40% of the people had medical cards. The figure was always been around 40%. It is not much of a change.

We heard today that cancer patients who had discretionary medical cards will now be deprived of them. This is an issue on which I have campaigned for years. I recall writing to the former Minister for Health, Ms Mary Harney, on the issue because I felt she might show some compassion to people with cancer.

Whether the reply I get from the Minister of State is one I like - I assume it will be the usual type that I do not like - I urge him to bring these concerns to the Ministers in question and to ask them to respond to me but not through the HSE. I want to know who is making the decisions because people are really hurting.

As I said, the HSE proposes to give medical cards only to those dying of cancer. It wants to hand a person with cancer a death certificate in that if one gets a medical card, one will know one has six months to live.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

I am taking this matter on behalf of my colleague, the Minister of State at the Department of Health with responsibility for primary care, Deputy Alex White and I thank the Senator for raising it. As the Senator pointed out, changes were made earlier this year to the medical card means test and to the income thresholds for over 70s medical cards. Those changes were made on foot of budget 2013 which identified a wide range of savings that were required across the health services. The General Medical Services, GMS, scheme was one of a number of areas identified in which savings were required.

A number of measures are being taken to reduce the cost of the GMS, which costs approximately €2 billion per year. At the end of 2012, there were approximately 1,986,000 qualifying people under the GMS. Medical cards make up the majority of this number, amounting to approximately 93% of the total. As part of budget 2013, the Government has made provision for an additional 200,000 persons to be covered by the GMS. Nonetheless, it is important that we prioritise the use of scarce financial resources in the current budgetary position.

Among the budget 2013 savings measures announced was a reduction in the income limits for over-70s medical cards. It should be noted that the overwhelming majority of medical cardholders aged over 70 years are unaffected by that change. For the wealthiest 5% who are affected, those cardholders under the old income limits will continue to be provided with a free GP service. The Health (Alteration of Criteria for Eligibility) Act 2013 was enacted on 28 March 2013 to give effect to the revised eligibility arrangements. Last December, at time of the budget, it was also announced that the rules on a person's expenses that are taken into account in calculating their net income for medical card purposes would be tightened. The Senator referred to this in his contribution.

The changes recently introduced by the Health Service Executive mean that payments on a home improvement loan and a €50 per week allowance for a car are excluded from the standard means test assessment. These changes took effect from April onwards.

For clarity, the exclusion from travel to work costs relates to removing the weekly amount of €50 allowed to cover standing charges, such as depreciation or other running costs, used when considering travel to work costs as an outgoing where public transport is not available or suitable and a car is required. This means that the HSE will continue to consider the standard mileage costs or public transport costs when assessing eligibility.

The Senator may be aware that there are a broad range of allowable expenses under the means test assessment for medical cards that have not been affected by these changes. I would like to assure him that the changes were identified with a view to mitigating the impact on the assessment process, while also yielding savings. In so doing, the new assessment arrangements continue to fully take account of a person's mortgage or rental expenses. In addition, other allowable expenses were protected budget 2013. The need to reduce the income limits for medical cards was avoided in budget 2013.

Senator John Kelly

I thank the Minister of State for the response, which contained everything I expected to be in it. I objected to all categories of people aged over 70 getting medical cards. The Minister of State might have been in government at the time. Previously, the guideline for a medical card for a person aged over 70 was equivalent to two old age pensions so, in effect, the Government was giving medical cards to wealthy people. I was one who spoke out against that at the time.

The Minister of State answered the question on who has changed the eligibility criteria. They were changed by the HSE. That means the Minister has accepted that it can tamper with the way things have been done in the past and affect people who have a rightful entitlement to a medical card, while at the same time he is talking out of the other side of his mouth, saying we will give universal GP cards to everyone in the country, and we will also give medical cards to everyone in the country with a long-term illness. None of that has happened. I am very disappointed that the people making the decisions are not taking those factors into consideration. They have no idea how they are affecting and hurting people.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

For the purpose of clarity, while the changes were introduced by the HSE, they were introduced on foot of a decision taken by the Government last December, at the time of the budget, to amend the mechanisms for calculating net income for medical card purposes.

On the reference made by the Senator to the commitment made by the Government in the programme for Government to introduce free GP care for all, that commitment remains in place. We are mid-way through what I hope will be our five-year term in office. I have every confidence in the Minister and his colleagues to deliver on the commitment.

Farm Safety

Senator Lorraine Higgins

I believe the Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Tom Hayes, is in the House to take the matter on the Adjournment, not my constituency colleague.

An Cathaoirleach

Does the Senator welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Hayes?

Senator Lorraine Higgins

I welcome the Minister of State and congratulate him on his recent appointment to the post. There is no doubt he will be a great asset to the Department given his vast experience in farming and politics. I commend the Minister, Deputy Coveney, on his work on the recent Common Agricultural Policy, CAP, negotiations and the great results he secured for the country in his endeavours. Not only has he shown leadership but he is also protecting Irish farmers and their livelihoods, and that deserves to be commended.

The matter I raise on the Adjournment this evening is one most would agree is a serious and pressing issue for the farming community in this country. It deserves to be highlighted. Not alone that, but there is a need for a plan to be put in place in order that an ongoing campaign focused on farm safety would continue throughout the next few months. According to Teagasc’s safety survey findings, this country has one of the highest incidences of farm accidents in Europe. It is more than twice the European average. Farm deaths accounted for 45% of all workplace deaths in 2012.

By the Health and Safety Authority’s own estimate, during the period 2000 to 2010, 30% of child deaths on farms were caused by drowning in slurry pits. During the same period, 8% of deaths of elderly farmers over the age of 65 were caused in similar circumstances. The risks associated with slurry pits have regrettably been highlighted by the tragic deaths of the members of the Spence family last year, which we all remember.

Slurry pits represent a wide and varied danger to the safety of farmers, their families and livestock. The possible causes of harm range from drowning to suffocation from poisonous gases. As the Minister of State is well aware, a high level of gases can be released when slurry is agitated and one breath or a lungful can cause instant death but can, equally, be highly dangerous for people within close proximity if noxious fumes are allowed to linger and are not diluted by a strong wind. The reliance on wind and other factors for safety is an archaic discipline and not particularly suitable to modern day farming practices. We need ideas to address this silent killer. It is imperative that the Ministers in the Department would direct the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine to summon the necessary chemical experts before it reports on the potential for development of a chemical that might go some way towards breaking up the slurry and relieving the farmer and his family from having to engage in this highly dangerous agitation process.

I welcome the Health and Safety Authority’s educational programmes, especially for children, on farm safety, as it appears that the farm competition for primary schools is having a positive impact on children by raising awareness of the danger that exists on site. However, I would like to hear what the Department is doing to further improve safety standards for farmers and whether it provides support to farmers for ongoing safety training. We must remember that farms are family homes as well as workplaces, so it is incumbent on the Department to ensure each and every farmer in the country realises that safe farming is about protecting themselves, their families and businesses.

Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine (Deputy Tom Hayes)

I thank Senator Higgins for giving me the opportunity to come to the House to clarify the Department's position on the issue raised. I also thank her for her good wishes to me.

We all agree that the tragic deaths of three members of the Spence family shocked the entire community and every effort must be made to avoid a repetition of such a dreadful accident. My Department has been in contact with colleagues in the Health and Safety Authority to understand the circumstances behind the dreadful events of that day last September. I am fully committed to the need to increase farmers' awareness of health and safety and to the need to influence the behaviour of farmers to act on this knowledge.

It is a fact that farming is the most dangerous occupation in the country with more people killed on farms than all other workplaces combined. To a large degree the nature of a farm is at the core of the problem. A farm is, to a great extent, seen first and foremost as a family home. This means it is seen as a place of security and welcome for family, friends, neighbours and visitors. However, a farmyard is a very dangerous place of work with large modern machinery and other dangers such as animals and extensive slurry storage areas. The difficulty is to marry the family home part of the farm with the very dangerous farmyard and other dangerous areas of the extended farm. Last year, 21 fatal accidents were reported on farms, while so far this year there have thankfully been just two, but still two too many. I sincerely hope that this is the start of a positive trend and not just a short-term reduction, as we have seen previously.

The Health and Safety Authority, HSA, under the remit of my colleague the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Richard Bruton, has primary responsibility for health and safety in the workplace. The HSA is also the enforcement agency for workplace safety. It carried out 3,000 inspections in the agriculture sector in 2012 and plans to continue with a high level of engagement during 2013. These visits are aimed at advising and educating farmers on the dangers that are ever present in the farm environment.

The Health and Safety Authority is carrying out a farm safety survey, which aims to identify the behaviours farmers engage in while working and the underlying factors influencing them, with a view to making recommendations concerning how best to make farms safer places in which to work and live. The survey questionnaires are being posted to more than 3,000, randomly selected, farm households beginning this week. The survey has been designed by agricultural sector experts and further shaped by interviews with farmers at a number of marts around the country earlier this year.

The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine is represented on the farm safety partnership advisory committee, which is a sub-committee of the Health and Safety Authority. The committee advises the board on the direction the HSA should take on farm safety. The farm safety action plan 2013-15 follows on from the previous farm safety action plan 2009-12 and it has been developed in conjunction with the farm safety partnership advisory committee.

I fully support all the measures that are being taken to raise awareness of this serious problem. For the second year running, my Department included a farm safety message with the single payment application packs that were sent to more than 130,000 farmers in March. The leaflet this year focused in particular on the dangers of slurry gases and the safe procedures for handling slurry. That was a joint initiative between the Department, the Health and Safety Authority and the farm safety partnership committee.

It is only one example of co-operation between various agencies to remind farmers of the importance of following safe farm practices and the potentially fatal consequences for them, their families and other farm visitors of lowering their guard.

In November last year, my Department, in conjunction with Teagasc, published a two-page article in the Irish Farmers' Journal on how to inspect cattle slats on top of slurry tanks in a safe manner. The article highlighted the importance of regular monitoring of the condition of cattle slats and the safe procedures for entering a slurry tank to undertake such an inspection.

My Department has detailed specifications for the design and construction of all types of slurry stores and these are the minimum standards to which such stores must be constructed. Not only do the specifications deal with the minimum construction standards but they detail the required safety procedures for the construction and safe operation of these stores. The first section of the specifications is about safety. All the specifications are freely available on my Department's website to anyone who is undertaking work on the construction of a slurry store. These specifications are kept under continual review and any developments in safety or construction techniques are incorporated.

Senator Higgins may be aware of the advertisements on television, radio and in the press featuring farmers who have been seriously injured in accidents. They gave an account of their experiences and showed their injuries at first hand. The Health and Safety Authority, which produced the advertisements, has also incorporated the six testimonials in a thought-provoking DVD which is now being used in all training undertaken by the Department. A copy is available to download from the HSA website. This DVD was shown on screens in marts throughout the country in the past year.

There is no one solution to this problem. I am confident all relevant agencies will work with the HSA and the farming representative organisations to continue to tackle the issue.

This is a good time to be a farmer. We are keen to do everything we can to get individual farmers to take care of their safety, their family's safety and the safety of all others on farms, including visitors. If anyone has any ideas I am sure Department officials and staff in Teagasc would be only too willing to accept any simple ideas that could help what is a major problem for the Department and others involved, especially when it comes to the bad news hitting a community or family.

Senator Lorraine Higgins

I thank the Minister of State for his response. I welcome in particular the work of the Health and Safety Authority, including the survey carried out, as well as the steps taken by the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine relating to farm safety. I welcome the comments of the Minister of State to the effect that he would welcome suggestions. Earlier, I referred to looking at other ways of carrying out the agitation process. As a farmer, the Minister of State will be aware that this is a dangerous time for any farmer or his family to be within close proximity during the process. I said earlier that relying on wind as a means of diluting the effects of the noxious fumes is unsatisfactory in this day and age. On that basis, I reckon the Minister of State could refer the matter to the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine. It could then discuss the matter and invite experts with a chemical background to examine ways of relieving and addressing the problem.

Deputy Tom Hayes

If the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine would be so good as to take it on board and invite in the experts, I would certainly welcome it. It should be done. As I stated earlier, any way to save a life is welcome and agitating slurry is extremely dangerous. Signage should be looked at and warning systems should be put up around slatted sheds. I take on board the points made by Senator Higgins. I can correspond with the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine to take that on board.

Senator Lorraine Higgins

I wrote to the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine on this matter last year and the committee members will be aware of my correspondence in this regard. If the Minister of State could chase it up, I would appreciate it.

Deputy Tom Hayes

I will do so.

Child Abduction

Senator Martin Conway

I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Costello, to the House to discuss this sensitive matter. I am pleased the Minister of State, Deputy Costello is dealing with it because he is a Minister of State associated with the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. I have been contacted in recent weeks concerning a case, the details of which have been supplied. I do not intend to put the names of the two children in question on the record of the House at this stage, although I understand the names are in the public domain.

I understand the two children have been removed from the jurisdiction illegally by their mother, although the father of one of the children has custody of that child. A series of legal issues pertain. Certainly, the law has been broken on several fronts. I understand the children were removed in spite of the fact that there are court orders. I understand correct documentation was not used to get the children out of the country.

I appreciate the distress this has caused the two fathers in question in this case, as does everyone in the House. It seems they have made little or no progress in attempts to get the children returned. At this stage they are in a desperate state of mind and need accelerated intervention from the Government and the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. I understand they have been in contact with the Irish Consulate in Zambia and senior officials in the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. This has probably got to the stage where we need those at the top of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade to intervene directly with the Government and senior officials in Zambia to get these children home. They are both Irish citizens with Irish passports. This sad and sorry episode must be brought to a senior level at this stage to try to bring it to a speedy conclusion and return the children safely to their families.

Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade (Deputy Joe Costello)

I can confirm that the relevant Irish Embassy and the consular assistance section of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade in Dublin are aware of this case. It involves two children of different fathers. All possible consular assistance is being provided to the respective fathers.

On 4 April 2013 the consular assistance section was contacted by the father of the older child who reported the possible abduction of his son by the child's mother. He was advised to report this to the Garda and he confirmed that this was his intention. The limits of consular assistance in such situations were outlined to him. It was explained that the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade has no power to remove a child from a foreign jurisdiction. He was informed that if the child's mother was unwilling to allow the child to return to Ireland, then the matter would have to be resolved through the local courts. He was also informed that the country to which the mother was understood to have taken his son is not a party to the Hague Convention on the Civil Aspects of International Child Abduction.

The convention is an agreement to ensure the return of a child who has been removed from the country where he or she normally lives to another country without the consent of one of the parents. Under the terms of the convention, children abducted in this manner are returned to their country of habitual residence in order that the courts there can decide on issues regarding custody and guardianship.

On 12 April 2013, the father of the older child contacted officials at our embassy and informed them that he understood that the mother had also taken a second younger son of a different father out of the country. He stated that the father of the younger son had reported this to the Garda and that both fathers were co-ordinating their efforts for the safe return of the two children to Ireland. On the same date, Garda officers confirmed to the consular assistance section that they had been informed of both cases by the fathers and that they were following up through Interpol channels.

The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade understands that at the time of the abduction the father of the older child had, and continues to have, a court order granting him custody, with visitation rights granted to the mother. The court order stipulates that the child "not be removed out of the jurisdiction of the court without leave of the court".

A court hearing relating to custody of the younger child had already been scheduled at the time of the abduction. It is also our understanding that the father of the younger child was subsequently granted guardianship shortly after the abduction. On 17 April, the father of the older child contacted the Irish Embassy to further discuss the abduction of his son. Both fathers subsequently provided the embassy with details of the mother's family situation in the country to which the mother is understood to have taken the children. Initially the fathers were hoping to ensure the safe return of their sons through negotiation but this has not, as yet, met with success. Our embassy and the consular assistance section have advised that they engaged the services of a local lawyer and the embassy has provided a list of reputable lawyers. In May, the head of the consular division offered to meet the father of the older child to discuss the matter further and this offer is still available to both fathers.

I can assure the Senator that all possible consular assistance will continue to be provided in this very difficult case and that my officials will continue to liaise with the fathers of the children named by the Senator.

Senator Martin Conway

I thank the Minister of State for his detailed response on this very sensitive and serious issue. My perspective on it is that two Irish citizens have been abducted in spite of the fact that one father has guardianship and the other has custody. I understand the situation in regard to the Hague Convention and so forth and that it is tricky. I know the offer of assistance from a senior official has been made but if there is no success with the local lawyer, with whom I understand they have engaged, and other personnel in the country to which the children have been taken, will the Minister of State, through his good offices, arrange a meeting in Dublin between the most senior official in the Department and the two fathers when they return to see if assistance can be provided to deal with this situation? I fear it will be a long and difficult road and that the two fathers in question will need every assistance they can get from the Government.

Deputy Joe Costello

I thank the Senator for those supplementary remarks. It is difficult to effect an easy resolution because the country is not party to the Hague Convention and because of the difficulty dealing with the abducting spouse. A situation of this nature can only be dealt with properly through the courts and that is why the consular assistance service has made available a list of suitable lawyers, which has not yet been taken up to the parents involved. The offer of a meeting with the two fathers has been made. When the fathers return to Ireland, I would be more than happy to arrange for them to meet the most appropriate official here.

The Seanad adjourned at 7.05 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Friday, 12 July 2013.

Seanad Éireann debate - Thursday, 11 Jul 2013