Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 5 Jun 2014

Vol. 231 No. 13

Adjournment Matters

Garda Investigations

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh

Cuirim céad fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit. Seo ábhar a d'ardaigh mé cúpla uair roimhe seo sa Teach, ábhar a bhaineann le hiar-cheannasaí Chumann na bhFiann, Domhnall Ó Lubhlaí. I am raising an issue that has been raised previously in the Houses but time has moved on and there have been many developments in justice issues since the last time we debated the issue.

There have been allegations concerning the founder of Cumann na bhFiann, Domhnall Ó Lubhlaí. He was the subject of a TG4 documentary some time back which examined claims that he may have abused dozens of victims in the 1970s and 1980s. It was alleged that Ó Lubhlaí, who has passed away, may have abused up to 100 boys when he was an Irish and religion teacher. Some of the alleged incidents took place in camps, hotels, flats and cinemas in Athlone, Rosmuc, Dublin, Donegal and Tipperary. He died some time back while under investigation for sexually abusing a 13 year old boy in the 1970s.

The Garda investigated allegations of abuse in 1988 and in 2002 the teacher faced 56 charges of sexual abuse involving 11 victims. However, the case did not go ahead following a legal challenge. At the time the case was live, the Rape Crisis Centre claimed that the Garda had had two opportunities to investigate the allegations against Ó Lubhlaí, who the centre described as very influential and a powerful figure. The centre called on the Garda Commissioner to ensure a full review to ascertain if the Garda utilised the opportunity of the investigation in 1991 to examine whether abuse had taken place, a procedure practised elsewhere in such cases.

Questions also surround the loss of vital evidence from the 1991 case which, in turn, impacted on an investigation in 1998, when five men came forward and reported sexual violence by Ó Lubhlaí. In response to queries about the case at the time, the Garda press office said it did not discuss named individuals. The matter was passed on to the then Commissioner, Mr. Callinan, who said that he had directed a re-examination of the case to identify any issues that needed to be addressed. He also outlined the new policies in place.

We know that the allegations against Mr. Ó Lubhlaí date from 1955 and that he had opportunities to work in different areas as well as access to young people. I have been in contact with several of the victims and their families. They remain concerned that the truth has not been given to them around these issues. They are keen to find out what will happen about it at this stage.

Several investigations have been instigated relating to the Garda Síochána, the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, the Department of Justice and Equality, etc. I note that the new Minister has called for an independent review group to be put in place to examine issues around the Department of Justice and Equality. In this case the victims believe that they have not got justice. Some people believe not all information has been forthcoming. Several Departments have a role in respect of the questions that they have asked, including the Department of Education and Skills, the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, the HSE and the Department of Justice and Equality. In the review called for by the Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, will she include or has she directed that the Ó Lubhlaí case be examined, how it was handled and how the review of the case was handled by the Department of Justice and Equality? Is that included? Can it be included? It is most important for the victims in this case and other cases to get full justice and to be assured that justice has been done.

If the Department, the Garda or other Departments were remiss in any way in any review undertaken, investigation carried out or evidence that might have gone missing, they deserve to know the truth. I hope the Minister of State will be able to confirm that the Minister will take this on board in the review being carried out.

Minister of State at the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation (Deputy Sean Sherlock)

I am speaking on behalf of the Minister for Justice and Equality who is unable to be present as she is attending a meeting of EU Justice and Home Affairs Ministers in Luxembourg. I thank the Senator for raising this important matter and acknowledge the consistency with which he has advocated on it.

As the Minister recently announced, an independent review group has been established to undertake a review of the Department of Justice and Equality. The independent review group, chaired by Mr. Kevin Toland, has been asked to undertake a comprehensive review of the performance, management and administration of the Department. It will assess and report on the roles, responsibilities and capabilities of the Department, including the following: concerns in respect of the governance and oversight of external organisations identified in particular in the report of Mr. Sean Guerin, SC; the Department's performance in discharging its responsibilities, implementing its programmes and achieving its desired strategic outcomes, as set out in its statement of strategy; and the effectiveness of the Department's current structure, systems, management and capabilities.

In making its recommendations the group will have regard to the policy, legal, institutional and resource framework within which the Department works. It will also draw on international best practice regarding the organisational structures, skills, training and levels required by the Department in order that it can fulfil its roles and responsibilities. It may engage additional expertise to help with its work, as it sees fit. Based on the conclusions and lessons drawn from this assessment, it will make recommendations to the Minister who has already commented that she believes the report will be an important signpost on the path to reform and enable the Department to build on its considerable strengths and fully address areas that need improvement.

Before I comment on the specific case referred to by the Senator, I wish to make it clear that the Minister does not wish in any way to pre-empt the work of the independent review group or how it will focus its efforts in the light of its terms of reference. At this stage, she would simply reflect that it was not anticipated that the independent review group would necessarily be the best means to address the detail of specific cases such as the one referred to, although its findings will, of course, be relevant to how the range of the Department's functions are delivered. The Department is not aware of any question having arisen relating to the Department in the context of the case referred to by the Senator. It, of course, is not involved in the investigation of criminal offences.

The Garda Commissioner previously directed that an examination be carried out of the procedures surrounding the handling of the complaints against the person in question. The Minister is advised by the Garda authorities that a review has been completed of a number of complaints made against the person concerned. However, further information has recently been provided for the Garda and this has necessitated further examination by gardaí before the review can be finalised. The Minister is advised that this process is ongoing.

The Minister wishes to assure the Senator that the need to learn from past child protection failures is a priority for her and the Government. This is reflected in the transformation of child protection arrangements which have taken place since the Government took office. In particular, the Senator will be aware of the recent publication by the Minister when she was Minister for Children and Youth Affairs of the Children First Bill 2014 which will, for the first time, provide for key elements of the Children First guidelines to be put on a statutory basis. This builds on other significant legislative and administrative measures which have been put in place in recent years to better protect children. In the light of the Minister's clear commitment in this regard, she will be asking the acting Garda Commissioner to ensure the review in question is completed as soon as possible.

I again thank the Senator for raising the issue. I will convey his comments during this debate to the Minister.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh

I appreciate that the Garda has been given further information. That is very important. There is a sense among the victims and observers who have studied the case that the investigation to date has not been up to scratch. We know that there are questions about how the Garda has investigated certain issues in the past and that that is subject to a number of inquiries. I ask the Minister of State to impress on the Minister how important it is for the victims in this case that a full, thorough and rigorous investigation be carried out in order that they can find closure, that the truth can be exposed and that they can move on with their lives.

Deputy Sean Sherlock

I acknowledge the points made by the Senator. I will convey these concerns to the Minister on his behalf.

School Accommodation

Senator Cáit Keane

I thank the Minister of State for attending to take this matter. I hope he will be able to tell me that he will put children first in terms of the Children First guidelines and the safety of children. The matter I raise concerns the Firhouse Educate Together national school and the premises in which it is located. The school is located in temporary, unsuitable accommodation which was originally built to be a community centre, not a school. The school is housed upstairs. The parents, teachers and local community are all very anxious about the unsuitability of the current premises for it.

Firhouse Educate Together national school is a very good one. The education provided and teachers are excellent, but the premises leaves a great deal to be desired, to put it mildly. It is absolutely unsuitable. If a safety analysis was to be conducted, it would not pass. The stairs are very steep and there is no wheelchair access. There is dual usage of the community centre and crowding at times when children are moving from one place to another. It is a serious issue.

The Department of Education and Skills is responsible for the safety of children, which is an issue in the school. When the school was accommodated in the premises, the Department stated initially, in September 2013, that it would be for four months. That stretched to six months and then eight. There is overcrowding in the staff room which is shared with learning support staff and when I visited the school, there was a child there who required special support. It is totally unsuitable. There is one toilet which is used by the public also. The community centre and the people in it are fine, but the community is being discommoded by having an educational establishment where there was never meant to be one. The community is very understanding and welcoming of the school, but it was to be temporary. It has been based there too long and, as time passes, is not viable.

The school had intended to grow. Owing to its good name, it had sufficient children enrolled to secure another teacher next year, but now parents are starting to look at the long-term position and wonder where their children will be if the school does not have a permanent location very soon. Some are beginning to look at other schools, even schools outside the area, if they wish to have their children attend an Educate Together school. If the school is to be viable, it must receive immediate assistance.

I asked the Minister for Education and Skills about this issue last November. In the south Dublin local area plan two sites were designated for education in the Firhouse area. The sites are available. I do not know if they are suitable or whether they are for the Educate Together national school, but perhaps the Minister of State might comment or offer some certainty on where the school will be located next September. Obviously, it cannot continue where it is located at present and operating in very difficult circumstances for the students, staff and parents. The safety issues must also be taken into consideration. The Minister must immediately find suitable accommodation for the school.

Deputy Sean Sherlock

I thank the Senator for raising this issue. As a Minister of State in the relevant Department, I am acutely aware of the predicament in which that school community finds itself. I take this opportunity to inform the House that I am not going to read directly from the prepared script.

As I understand it, the Firhouse Educate Together school was established to service a specific demographic demand within the Firhouse area. The Senator referred to the South Dublin County Council plan, etc., and in that context, the school should ideally have a permanent home within or as close to the geographical area in which it is currently located as possible in order to meet people's needs. A process is ongoing whereby officials from the Department of Education and Skills are working with their counterparts in South Dublin County Council in order to acquire a suitable site. In the context of the Department's geographical information system and analysis, the Ballycullen-Oldcourt area is considered a separate and distinct geographical area. The local area plan for Ballycullen-Oldcourt refers to the planned future additional population. This means that the area will have educational infrastructural requirements in its own right should the planned housing developments for it materialise.

I am given to understand that the process relating to identifying and acquiring a site for Firhouse Educate Together is ongoing. The Senator indicated that she previously raised this matter last November. It has been my experience that the process of acquiring land tends to be open-ended in nature. It is very difficult, for example, to put in place sunset clauses in respect of the acquisition of land or to disregard the commercial sensitivities involved. The process is ongoing and due to the kind of commercial sensitivities to which I refer, it is not possible to provide further information at this time. I am sure the Senator has heard that before and I do not wish to offer her any platitudes in respect of this issue. I am aware, however, from my dealings with the officials in the Department, that when interacting with local authorities, there is a process which must be undergone. The process is not seamless and can involve many twists and turns. That will come as no comfort to Senator Keane in the context of her attempts to represent the interests of the people who made representations to her. I assure her that I will raise the matter with the relevant officials in the Department and that I will exert as much pressure as possible in the context of establishing the current position.

Senator Cáit Keane

I referred to the two sites in question because I am aware of both. I am also aware that one lies outside the boundary. The Minister of State referred to site selection and indicated that the process of acquiring land is ongoing. I am aware that attempts were made to acquire a public open space, namely, a football field and that the local community was opposed to this. Will the Minister of State confirm that the proposal to purchase this land is no longer on the table? There are several groups involved here, namely, the school community and those who play football and use the land in question for the purpose of engaging in physical exercise. When he refers to commercial sensitivities, I presume the Minister of State is referring to sensitivities which relate to some private as opposed to public land the Department is seeking to acquire. Seeking to acquire land from a local authority such as South Dublin County Council is one thing, whereas seeking to purchase it from a private owner is quite another.

I accept that there are commercial sensitivities involved but people must be allowed to know what is happening. In view of what is happening in respect of property throughout Dublin at present, the land is going to be for sale on the open market in any event. I do not want it to be a case that the sale of the land will be signed, sealed and delivered and that the new school will be built there. I want a school to be built which will be within the Firhouse area and which will suit the demographic needs of that area. If the Minister of State has the relevant information about a possible site in his possession, he should make it available. It should certainly be made available before September in order that those at Firhouse Educate Together will know that a site will be acquired for it.

Deputy Sean Sherlock

I accept those points and I recognise that Firhouse Educate Together is currently occupying temporary accommodation, which is certainly not ideal. I have come across situations such as this previously whereby schoolchildren are being obliged to learn in what can only be described as Dickensian conditions while they await the provision of permanent accommodation. I wish to give Senator Keane an undertaking to the effect that I will raise this matter within the Department. I must point out, however, that it is not only in respect of the acquisition of privately-owned land that sensitivities arise. I take the Senator's point regarding the upward trajectory of property prices in the Dublin area. However, sensitivities also arise when land is being transferred from one public body, local authority or State entity to another. There are many legalities which must be dealt with in that context. Regardless of whether it is a private or public entity involved, the process is not seamless. As a result, the acquisition of a suitable site is taking some time to bring to a conclusion. I fully acknowledge that. I will bring the points made by Senator Keane to the attention of the officials within the Department.

Pupil-Teacher Ratio

Senator Paul Bradford

I welcome the Minister of State. I am glad he is here to take this matter because, as a result of the fact that he represents the constituency of Cork East, he is aware that the issue of small schools in rural areas is beginning to become one of concern throughout the county.

The Minister of State will be aware of the relevant statistics and I am sure he will correct what I am about to say if it is incorrect. The figures available to me seem to suggest that there are approximately 600 schools throughout the country with 50 or fewer pupils. Obviously, this poses a challenge for school authorities, the Department and the Minister, Deputy Quinn, in the context of the allocation of resources. We must acknowledge the very proactive role the schools to which I refer play in small rural communities. Small schools are very much at the centre of life in rural areas, particularly in the context of the number of activities they facilitate.

I wish to refer to the challenges that will be faced by some of the schools in question as a result of the change to the pupil-teacher ratio and I appreciate the huge financial constraints under which the Minister, the Department and the Government continue to operate. When Budget 2012 was introduced, it was announced that the pupil-teacher ratio would be changed over a three-year period. The latter is going to place small rural schools at a significant disadvantage because the number of pupils per teacher and per class is obviously going to increase quite significantly. Anyone can romanticise the notion of the small rural school where there are two, three or four classes in a single room and where every child sings along happily with his or her teacher. That is only one side of the story. We live in the modern world and the educational challenges which arise are greater than ever. I refer to the fact that people have high expectations of schools and teachers. We are placing a huge onus on teachers to produce results and to guide young children through their early years in education. It is going to become increasingly difficult for teachers to do their job as they would like to do it if they are going to be obliged to deal with 28 or 29 pupils spread across two or three classes. This is a matter upon which we must reflect.

I received correspondence from a teacher - the Minister of State may also have received it - who asked children in senior classes the differences they had noticed a month after class sizes had been increased. The children replied that they needed to do more writing and that if they required help from the teacher, they were obliged to wait longer for it. The teacher in question notes that children who are weaker academically are not served well by larger class sizes because there is little or no time available in which to give them additional attention.

We must do everything possible to maintain these rural schools, because they play a significant role, not just in the educational but in the broader life of the community. When we have done that and have secured every possible school we can and its future, we must try to ensure the pupil-teacher ratio in that school is appropriate to the needs of the pupils, teachers and community.

I am advised that in disadvantaged DEIS areas the maximum pupil-teacher ratio, in infant classes in particular, is 20 pupils. I have no disagreement with that and believe it is appropriate, though perhaps 20 is too many. We are talking about classes in some of our small rural schools which can have 28, 29 or 30 pupils. I ask the Minister of State and the Minister to reflect on this and to try to ensure, in so far as they can, that these schools will receive the teaching allocations they require to allow them continue the fine traditions such schools, communities and parishes have had for generations.

I admit we live in a changing time and world, but we need traditional stability. Our schools can provide that, our small rural schools in particular. However, there must be willingness on the part of the Department to provide resources to allow sufficient teachers for those schools. I do not expect a major policy announcement today, but I ask the Minister of State to use his good offices to keep these rural schools and their teachers and communities at the centre of the Department's thinking.

Deputy Sean Sherlock

I thank Senator Bradford for raising this issue. The criteria used for the allocation of teachers to schools is published annually. I accept the point made by the Senator in regard to budget 2012, whereby as part of that budget there is a phased increase in the number of pupils required to gain and retain a classroom teaching post in small primary schools with four teachers or less. The current system operates on the basis of a general average of one classroom teacher for every 28 pupils, with lower thresholds for DEIS band 1 schools. I have not seen the correspondence Senator Bradford referred to, but I acknowledge pressures are being brought to bear in terms of the classroom experience, both for pupils and for teachers. I acknowledge also that budgetary measures taken in 2012 brought pressure, a result of macro-economic factors.

The Department has expanded the existing appeals process so that it is accessible to the schools that are affected by the budget measure. Small schools will not lose their classroom post if they project sustainable increased enrolments in September 2014 that would be sufficient to allow them to retain their existing classroom posts over the longer term. We are all aware of the appeals process and the staffing circulars and the processes involved.

I acknowledge the general point being made by the Senator that we must ensure there is a role for small schools within rural communities. Both he and I hail from the same region and such communities. The Department has taken a conscious decision to ensure that schools which had no inward investment for many years, for example, in regard to capital expenditure and bricks and mortar, are seeing investment. Projects are now going on throughout our region and the country to replace prefabs with bricks and mortar. This is part of trying to make the experience for students and school communities better. In rural areas, these schools are the institutions underpinning the community.

The Senator will be aware that a value for money review was conducted on small primary schools. The review took account of the ethos of schools and of their locations relative to other similar schools. We are currently considering the value for money reviews, in consultation with Government colleagues, and it is intended to publish the report on completion of the consideration process. We are very mindful of the points raised by Senator Bradford in regard to the budget 2012 measures. We seek to ensure we have a sustainable model for the future, but I acknowledge there are challenges in that regard.

The Minister has had initial discussions with the Catholic Primary Schools Management Association, CPSMA, and the Irish National Teachers Organisation in regard to their proposals on the issue of primary school consolidation and reorganisation. We acknowledge that some 48 small schools have had a reduction in enrolments, which means that for September 2014 they will lose a teacher. We acknowledge these losses would not have occurred if the pre-budget 2012 enrolment threshold still applied and if the threshold for a two-teacher school had remained at 12 pupils. We acknowledge the constraints that exist currently. However, the value for money review is under consideration and will be published.

Speaking personally, I will advocate strongly for assurances to be given on the future of schools and for consultation and engagement with stakeholders in a meaningful process of dialogue which will ensure a future for these schools. Then we can begin to address the dynamic the Senator outlined in regard to the new pressures that exist in particular schools and classrooms as economic circumstances improve.

Acting Chairman (Senator Michael Mullins)

Before we finish, I would like to welcome our special visitors to the Gallery.

The Seanad adjourned at 3.20 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 10 June 2014.