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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 30 Jan 2019

Vol. 263 No. 6

Criminal Law (Extraterritorial Jurisdiction) Bill 2018: Committee and Remaining Stages

SECTION 1
Question proposed: "That section 1 stand part of the Bill."

I note that the term “relevant offence” includes an offence under section 3 of the Non-Fatal Offences against the Person Act 1997 - assault occasioning harm. It is a wide category. Effectively, anything that is not a non-technical assault is an assault occasioning harm within the meaning of that Act. One consequence of stating it is a relevant offence, as will appear from the next section, is that a person who is accused of engaging in an assault occasioning harm will, in the circumstances described in section 2, be liable to be punished and convicted in Ireland in certain circumstances.

On Second Stage the Minister told the House that it did not apply simply to crimes against women, who are the primary object of protection under the Istanbul Convention, but also to men. I can see why that would be necessary, but we should try to confine the offences under section 3 to those involving domestic violence within the meaning of Article 3 of the convention. It states: “domestic violence shall mean all acts of physical, sexual, psychological or economic violence that occur within the family or domestic unit or between former or current spouses or partners, whether or not the perpetrator shares or has shared the same residence with the victim”. That narrows it down. However, if a fellow throws a punch in a pub in Brisbane at a person with whom he has no or never had a domestic relationship of any kind within the meaning of the Act, does that mean he can be arrested for it in Dublin and tried as if he had committed the offence in Ireland?

Where would he be tried?

Here in Ireland. One of the problems with that is that if one is broadening criminal jurisdiction to cover such cases, the question which automatically occurs to me is choice of venue. Under the Criminal Law (Jurisdiction) Act 1976, there is provision for persons to opt for trial in Northern Ireland, for instance. In other words, there is the option of being tried in the place where the offence is alleged to have occurred. It seems strange to me that we do not appear to be giving any such right to opt to be tried in a foreign state under the Bill or to opt to have the matter investigated in a foreign state where the witnesses might be resident.

I fully support the Istanbul Convention and know exactly what it is about. I am concerned that any act of assault which involves harm, can include pain, loss of consciousness, a bruise or a mark will give rise to territorial jurisdiction in Ireland in respect of certain people. Is that a good idea? Will the Minister explain why he has cast the net so wide in respect of offences which are 1 million miles away from those covered by the Istanbul Convention?

With his usual frenzied intelligence, Senator McDowell has filleted out a rather curious little byway of the law. I agree with him as far as the question of examining the evidence is concerned. Surely the most appropriate place for the investigation to take place is where the crime took place. On the other hand, with regard to having the case in some place like Australia, for example, I do not see any reason the Irish taxpayer should be expected to pay the airfare for somebody to be tried in that jurisdiction. The investigation should take place in Australia or wherever the crime took place, but I do not see any reason the trial cannot take place in Dublin.

This is a short but nevertheless important Bill that we dealt with on Second Stage prior to Christmas. It is the final piece in the patchwork that will enable this country to sign the provisions of the Council of Europe convention on the prevention and combating of violence against women and domestic violence, known as the Istanbul Convention. The definition of "convention state" is clear in the Bill, namely, a state other than Ireland that is a party to the convention. The Bill deals primarily with combating violence against women and domestic violence. I hope Seanadóirí will assist in the swift passage of legislation and urge them accordingly.

The Minister did not answer Senator McDowell's query. I was just wondering if he could do so, but I see he is not going to do so.

My contribution is an appeal. I echo in very forceful terms what the Minister outlined at the end of his remarks. This legislation is necessary to allow Ireland to meet its international obligations and ratify the Istanbul Convention. I sincerely hope all Members of this House will appreciate its urgency. Violence against women, as we all agree, is a horrendous crime. If there are small or technical elements in the legislation with which Senators have issues, I suggest they introduce an amended Private Members' Bill in due course to sort them out. This legislation is to ratify our international obligations and support and assist women who find themselves in a violent situation. As legislators, we have a duty not to delay it. No amendments have been tabled on Committee Stage. If Senators were exercised about elements of it, they had the option of tabling amendments on Committee Stage. I appeal to Senators not to delay the Bill but to let it pass as quickly as possible.

We are a short time into the debate and everyone wants this legislation to proceed as quickly as possible. Is the question agreed to?

I asked the Minister to explain why he was casting the net so widely in respect of section 3 of the Non-Fatal Offences Against the Person Act and have not received a response. I take the Minister's point that this is important legislation. I also take Senator Conway's point that it is important that it be put through quickly. I am just asking some questions about it. If the implication of the Minister and Senator Conway is that I am simply to say I have no objection, that we should just pass the Bill and that I should not contribute or ask any question about it because it must become law without any further discussion, so be it. I am not trying to delay thielegislation. I would not have been here today were it not for the fact that other business was being taken and when I saw that the Bill was before the House, I started to read it. It was only at that stage that a number of aspects occurred to me as requiring a degree of explanation rather than simply acquiescing and rubber-stamping it.

Senator McDowell wishes to comment rather than to make amendments.

He might table amendments on Report Stage.

Does the Minister wish to comment?

No, I think Senator McDowell's motives are quite clear. Of course, he is entitled to make comments for whatever length of time he deems fit on the legislation. Whether he regards it as important or otherwise is immaterial to me. I will point out, however, that there is an exception in respect of section 2 of the Non-Fatal Offences Against the Person Act because it was deemed to be of such a lower order as not to be necessary to be covered under the international convention. Offences under sections 3, 4, 5, 9 and 10 are covered, having regard to their seriousness and the application of the extraterritorial jurisdiction.

The remark made by the Minister in claiming that he has worked out my motive is deeply offensive. I would not have read the Bill were it not for the fact that I was engaged to come here this evening. I would not have had the opportunity because I had other things to do. I am just making the point that I am entitled to make short observations about the scope of a Bill.

That is what I accepted. However, I know what the Senator's motivation is.

The Minister does not. How could he know? I would like him to explain to the House how he knows what Senator McDowell's motivation is.

Senator Norris should resume his seat.

It is interesting that Senator McDowell said he would not even have read the Bill and that he was here for other reasons.

Senator Conway must resume his seat.

I was making a point of order actually.

Please, Senators, this is a relatively straightforward Bill. Members are entitled to speak to the section. There is no issue in that regard. As Acting Chairman, I would like to see Senators behave in a civilised way in order that we can get through every aspect of the Bill. Can I take it that the Minister has dealt with Senator McDowell's question on the first section?

Just briefly in regard to-----

I want it to be very brief. We need to move on.

Who are you to want it to be very brief?

The Minister has partly dealt with it. Section 2 of the Non-Fatal Offences Against the Person Act deals with ordinary, simple assault. If the Acting Chairman pushed me aside-----

If I am going to be trampled down here, we are going to have a very long debate.

The Senator is not going to be trampled down. He is entitled to speak. I asked him - I was being very fair - if the Minister had dealt with his question.

He said section 2 dealt with a technical assault. If I push a garda or even put my hand on a garda and tell him or her to push away, that is an assault, even if no harm is done.

That is a very reasonable point.

After that, if I give somebody a thump and it causes that person pain, it is a section 3 assault. That is the difference.

The point I am making is this. Was it necessary to cast this Bill so wide that every such incident anywhere in the world involving any Irish citizen or person who is ordinarily resident in Ireland would now become prosecutable in the Irish courts? I do not see why that is an unreasonable point to make and I do not see where the policy has been explained as to why that should be part of our criminal law.

In accordance with the provision of mutual legal assistance in other jurisdictions, in the event of there being a more serious assault perpetrated by an Irish citizen abroad - I can think of a number of examples of such assaults - it is appropriate that such a trial can take place within this jurisdiction.

I do not see why it is appropriate that an Irish citizen should be triable in Ireland on the charge that he or she threw a punch in Australia.

I do not see why that should be the case and the Istanbul Convention to implement it in Irish law does not require it to be the case. I fully accept the point the Minister made on Second Stage because I took the trouble to read his speech, that it cannot be women only, particularly in this day and age, and that we have to consider domestic violence involving males also, male to male and female to female. I do think, however, that point is cast very widely and that the Minister should think hard about proceeding with this in its present state and at least indicate that he would on Report Stage entertain an amendment to narrow the scope of the definition.

Are we taking all Stages?

That does not leave much time for the Senator’s amendment.

We are taking all Stages, Committee and Remaining Stages, as set down in the Order of Business.

It was agreed to on the Order of Business and not voted on. It was agreed to.

I am against section 1 standing part of the Bill, but I will not call a vote on it.

Question put and agreed to.
Section 2 agreed to.
SECTION 3
Question proposed: "That section 3 stand part of the Bill."

There are two aspects of the drafting of the Bill that I ask the Minister to consider. The phrase used in section 3(1) and (4), "the person shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable to be proceeded against and punished as if he or she were guilty of the relevant offence concerned", is infelicitous drafting. I think it should be "accused of the offence" rather than "guilty" of the offence.

I have referred to the fact that because of the lower order of a section 2 offence under the 1976 regime, it is not considered appropriate that this Bill would apply.

I am still not happy with that. The second point arises in section 3(5) and (6). Section 3(5) refers to, "Where a person, other than an Irish citizen, who is ordinarily resident in the State engages in conduct in a place outside the State that would, if the conduct occurred in the State, constitute murder or manslaughter", but surely it should be murder or attempted murder or manslaughter. Surely the same should apply to 3(6).

I would be happy to reflect on that matter. It was not in the original text. The issue has not been raised to date, but I would be happy to give it further consideration.

I am not raising it as a major issue. I notice further on in the section that jurisdiction is conferred in respect of persons "ordinarily resident in the State". Section (10) reads: "For the purposes of this section, a person shall be deemed to be ordinarily resident in the State if he or she had his or her principal residence in the State for the period of 12 months immediately preceding the alleged commission of the offence". How will that be proved? What is the principal residence? How will it be proved that somebody had a principal residence in Ireland? If we are dealing with a non-Irish citizen, with which this section deals, how can we establish proof that the person is ordinarily resident in the State by reference to it? It seems that there should be a presumption that if a person is charged as a person "ordinarily resident in the State", he or she is such a person rather than that the Garda would have to work out his or her principal residence, whether it was in the State, whether the person had a house in Crossmaglen or Torremolinos, an apartment in Dublin, or whatever else. If the Minister is going to make this workable, there should be a presumption that the person charged as a person resident in the State is so resident until the person shows otherwise. I cannot imagine how the Garda could in effect prove that a person had a principal residence for 12 months prior to an event. It would be very difficult to do that.

I am satisfied, having regard to the seriousness of the offence, that there would be certain proofs required, one being whether the person was living in the State, had been living in the State or had established either residence or domicile in the State. I do not believe the content of the subsection is unduly onerous. In view of what Senator McDowell has said, however, if it is an issue that there have been areas of confusion in the procuring of evidence or otherwise, which I do not believe to be the case, I will certainly consider it further.

Question put and agreed to.
Sections 4 and 5 agreed to.
Schedule agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment.

When is it proposed to take the next Stage?

The Minister said he was going to give some consideration to matters raised by Senator McDowell. If we are going to proceed to Report Stage now, I do not see how he can.

The matter can be dealt with in the Dáil.

It will be in the Dáil.

I understand. I appreciate the clarification.

The Minister has undertaken to deal with them in the Dáil. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Bill received for final consideration.
Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

I thank Senators for their support. I am now happy to proceed to the Lower House. A small number of issues have been raised. I will be happy to communicate directly with Senator McDowell if the House is of the view that this is deemed to be in order. The priority is early ratification. I thank Senators for their co-operation.

On behalf of Fine Gael Senators, I thank the House for its co-operation in dealing with this important legislation. I welcome the Minister's commitment to ratify urgently and deal in the Lower House with the concerns raised.

I thank the Minister and Senator Conway for their most gracious remarks.

I thank the Minister for his work on the Bill and everyone who has made a contribution to it. It is of great importance and we have waited many years to have it passed. I also take on board the expertise of Senator McDowell. If it would be useful, I would certainly support the Senator talking to the Minister directly to see what slight amendments could be made in the Dáil, but it is important that we pass the Bill today.

They were constructive contributions. Would Senator Norris like to comment in the same spirit?

No, only to say this a very important-----

In the spirit of the constructive contributions, I appeal to the Senator not to depart again.

I beg your pardon. Do people expect me to depart from Platform 12 and a half for Hogwarts? This is important legislation. I spoke effectively to the domestic violence and violence against women legislation and gained certain concessions in having amendments taken on board. I am glad that the House did not hold up the Bill. It is appropriate that Senator McDowell asked the questions he did and I am grateful to the Minister for saying he will give them consideration before presenting the Bill to the Dáil.

By way of comment, I have no doubt that the bipartisan approach taken to the Bill we have just completed will continue with the Judicial Appointments Commission Bill, the debate on which I await with great interest.

I foresee a swift passage.

Question put and agreed to.
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