I thank the Minister of State, Deputy English, for coming into the House.
Nithe i dtosach suíonna - Commencement Matters
Community Employment Schemes
I thank the Minister of State for coming into the House. The issue on the table is the exclusion of those aged 18 to 20 from participating in the community employment, CE, scheme. It is generally accepted that the Government should reward the behaviour we want to encourage in our citizens, and being an active citizen in our economy is one such behaviour we should champion. While this has been the case for years, the events of budget 2023 led me to think about what message the Government is trying to achieve through the CE scheme. Budget 2023 saw a €5 increase in the CE top-up payment from €22.50 to €27.50 from January 2023. Meanwhile those in receipt of a weekly jobseeker's payment will receive an increase of €12 per week.
The CE scheme is designed to help people who are long-term unemployed or otherwise disadvantaged to get back to work by offering part-time or temporary placements in jobs based within local communities. Participants can take up other part-time work during the CE placement. The work is community based. The training provided through CE is delivered with a quality assurance framework. When a person's CE placement ends, the person is encouraged to seek a job elsewhere using the skills, experience and training gained while participating in the CE scheme. The duration of a CE scheme placement is for 12 months, with some exceptions. The general qualifying age for CE is 21. There are exceptions to this, of course. The CE drug rehabilitation programmes are available for persons aged 18 or over who are in recovery or referred for a rehabilitation place on a CE scheme. Members of the Traveller and Roma communities can qualify from the age of 18. Ex-offenders aged 18 or over are referred by the following agencies: the Probation Service, the linkage service, the gate service, the resettlement service and the Irish Prison Service. Refugees aged 18 or over who are authenticated by the Department of Justice, have a valid work permit or Garda National Immigration Bureau card with stamp 4 and are in receipt of any Department of Social Protection payment for any length of time, can quality for a CE scheme.
I ask the Minister of State to advise whether the current influx of refugees over the age of 18 will be in a position to take up a CE scheme. After all, this would encourage social integration of refugees within communities. The current social welfare payment for 18-year-olds is €117.70. This payment will increase to €129.70 in January 2023. Approximately 20,000 people under the age of 25 were getting jobseeker's allowance at the end of September 2022. Why are we saying to 18-year-olds, 19-year-olds and 20-year-olds who are not in education, employment or training that they cannot avail of our work support scheme, and all they can do is collect their dole money? It is not empowering to our young people to reward them for doing nothing. It is lazy governance. As a Government, we must do better for our teens and our young people. One will never get a career or an opportunity by lying in bed all day and we should not reward it either. Given that the take-up of CE and Tús programmes is at an all-time low, surely these programmes should be opened up for this age cohort as a matter of urgency.
I thank Senator Keogan for raising this issue. I am responding on behalf of the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Humphreys, who could not make it to the debate.
I acknowledge the excellent work that is done on the full range of schemes supported by the Department, including community employment schemes, Tús and the rural social scheme, and the contribution these schemes and their workers make to communities throughout the county. We see in every county, and the Senator and I certainly see it in our county of Meath, high participation across the schemes.
Currently, more than 26,000 participants and 1,635 supervisors are employed on the three main schemes. Overall, these schemes have a budget allocation of €540 million in 2022. Work schemes such as community employment and Tús are positive initiatives that enable the long-term unemployed to make a positive contribution to their communities while upskilling for prospective future employment. The role they play in our communities is well recognised. At present, more than 18,500 places are supported on community employment, with a budget of over €375 million available to support the scheme in 2022.
The Minister, Deputy Humphreys, the Minister of State, Deputy Joe O'Brien, and I announced reforms to the community employment scheme on 21 December 2021 and again on 29 June last. These changes were introduced to improve the operation of the employment support schemes and maintain vital services within our communities. These changes included provision to allow community employment scheme participants who reach 60 years of age to remain on the scheme until they reach State pension age. Reducing the age from 62 to 60 to allow participants to remain on the community employment scheme until they reach State pension age was considered on the basis that this cohort of participants is least likely to progress to employment in the open labour market. It was also part of a type of consultation based on a number of visits by the Minister, the Minister of State and me to the community enterprise offices and community employment offices, engagement with supervisors and managers over a long period as well as many debates in both Houses of the Oireachtas. We have had considerable discussion on this matter in recent years. We all see the value of these schemes to our communities and to people in their 60s who want to stay in schemes and do not want to have to go back into the work environment.
Currently, 27% of community employment scheme participants are between the ages of 60 and 66 and almost half of community employment scheme participants are aged over 55. Community employment was originally only open to participants over the age of 25 until a change was introduced by the Department of Social Protection back in 2017, which reduced the eligible age for participation to where it is today, at 21 years. However, the community employment scheme is already available to those in receipt of disability-related payments and is also available to members of the Traveller and Roma communities, refugees, ex-offenders and inhabitants of offshore islands from the age of 18.
All places on the drugs rehabilitation CE scheme are available to persons aged 18 years or over who are in recovery and referred for a rehabilitation place on a community employment scheme. While the scheme is not open to all customers between the ages of 18 and 21, a wide range of supports in the Department of Social Protection is available to this cohort of young people. It is certainly not the case that there are no supports or that these young people are left to their own devices. These supports include Tús, the work placement experience programme and the JobsPlus scheme, along with a broad range of education and training programmes. I ask any young person in this age cohort to engage directly with the Department of Social Protection and the Intreo offices because a team of caseworkers is ready to work with and assist them on a journey back to work or into a training course or work placement experience programme.
At every business event I attend on behalf of the Department, I stress the importance of giving young people a chance through these schemes and that supports are available to assist the future employee as well as the employer. Strong subsidies are available to both sides to make it worthwhile for everybody to engage with these supports, no matter what age they are, and to follow the pathways to work programme set out in the document.
To give an example, Tús is an employment support scheme, similar to community employment, and, as I mentioned, it is open to those between the ages of 18 and 21. It is worth looking at the participants in that scheme to give some background on research for the lowering of the age on CE schemes. The level of participation on Tús for 18- to 21-year-olds is just over 3% and for 22- to 25-year-olds, it is just over 6%. To be clear, the Senator is asking us to open up schemes for which there does not seem to be great demand because the age group in question avails of the other support schemes, generally the work placement experience programme. The low take-up figures for Tús indicate that such an employment support scheme is not a preferred option for this age group. Coupled with the range of other educational, training and work placements available to this age group, this indicates that extending community employment schemes to all customers in this age group would not make an appreciable difference to participation rates.
The live register figures show that 63% of long-term unemployed jobseekers are between the ages of 25 and 54. Community employment placements are an ideal opportunity to provide these older potential participants with relevant work experience and training to help them to move closer to open labour market employment.
Every business owner I talk to tells me he or she cannot find enough people to work in his or her business. There are many jobs on offer and many supports to help people of every age to avail of them, go on training or upskilling programmes or do whatever it takes. We would love to be able to join the dots for everyone, be that person 18, 19, 20 or 21 years of age, through the various supports that are in place. I ask everybody concerned to engage with their caseworkers through the Intreo offices, in addition to the businesses with the gaps.
I thank the Minister of State. Why are almost 20,000 people under the age of 25 unemployed? Can they not avail of the Tús, JobPath and work placement programmes?
They can-----
Of course they can but if that is what the Minister is proposing, why are we encouraging them by giving them more money – an extra €12 – through the budget? They are not being encouraged to work. They are being given an extra €12 per week to stay in unemployment, to remain as a jobseeker, when we should be encouraging them to get on the programmes. In fact, the longer they are on jobseeker’s allowance, the more we should decrease their payments.
I would like to live in a society in which everyone who is able participates. I refer to people of all abilities. Those who may have some disabilities also want to participate, so we need a society in which we can encourage people to work. If there is more that can be done to encourage the cohort in question to work, I would really welcome it.
I thank the Senator for raising this matter for discussion. I necessarily agree that we should encourage everybody who is able to work to do so if at all possible. That is why every effort is made by the Government, including the Tánaiste and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, to make the case that work always pays and should always pay. That is why much of the work of the Government in the past two and a half years has been on strengthening pay and conditions and the work environment. The protections are in place. There is sick pay legislation coming into effect, there is auto-enrolment, and the minimum wage has gone up by 80%. Therefore, every effort is being made to make sure it is worthwhile going to work. In the majority of cases, it absolutely is. A range of supports is available to the cohort in question to take up work or obtain training and skills. We constantly work to encourage people to take up work. There are extra caseworkers assigned under Pathways to Work to work with the newly unemployed or long-term unemployed so they can find their way back into work, avail of the supports and join up the dots.
The job placement programme is a really useful one to encourage people to get used to a work environment again and get close to a job. We try to encourage everyone to participate in the schemes. When someone is at work, everyone generally benefits, including the community, business and the person’s family.
With regard to the payments of €12, the response in the budget is a cost-of-living initiative to recognise that everyone on a fixed income, regardless of the reason, is under extreme pressure when it comes to paying bills. Likewise, anybody who is going to work is also under pressure. That is why we made changes to the tax system, the working family payment and other payments, again recognising there is a cost-of-living pressure. The argument in this regard is different from the argument as to who can avail of what scheme in normal times. That is what the response is about.
Pathways to Work is a document that tries to focus our efforts on encouraging everybody who could be at work but who is not to return to work. It is to make it easier for them. Everybody has a unique story, and our caseworkers understand that. The range of schemes allows the journey to happen in different ways for different people. I encourage everybody not in work to return to work through education, training, placements or apprenticeships. There is a range of initiatives. The Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Humphreys, is very much behind these and driving them, along with other key Departments, including the Department of Education and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment.
Scientific Research
I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Niall Collins.
Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit. We are discussing Ireland's membership of CERN, which is arguably the world's greatest scientific laboratory and certainly engages some of its greatest scientists, engineers and technicians. I am glad to welcome to the Public Gallery several researchers who have a specific interested in this issue. As the Minister of State is aware, CERN is focused on how our universe is made up. It has been responsible for some of the things we take for granted in many ways, including the World Wide Web, touchscreens, positron emission tomography scanners in hospitals, work that has been done in cancer care and changes that have happened in construction. Almost every European country is either a member or an associate member of CERN or has a co-operation agreement with the body, except Ireland.
We pride ourselves on our multilateralism. Where we see an organisation like CERN facilitating co-operation and collaboration among the world's top scientists, we should be at its heart. These scientists are addressing challenges that we all face, including Ireland. Approximately 16,000 scientists from more than 110 countries worldwide have been involved in some of these projects. Yet, Ireland's official policy is that members of our research community are not actively encouraged to take part because we are not a member of CERN. An equivalent Government policy, and the equivalent of what we are saying to our researchers, would be if we were to tell our actors that they could not get involved in productions in Hollywood. Another example, and the Minister of State will appreciate this, would be if we were to tell GAA players that they could not play in Croke Park. By excluding Ireland and the members of our research community from CERN, we are not allowing them to perform on the international stage.
All of us, including the Minister of State, are aware that we have top-class, global-level researchers in our universities, higher education institutions, HEIs, and research institutes nationwide who are engaged in some of the work CERN is involved in. This includes artificial intelligence, quantum computing and engineering, communications and nanotechnology, etc. We have top-class researchers in all these areas. The Government under its Innovation 2020 policy committed to examining membership. The process of discussions on membership started in 2016. In November 2019, the Joint Committee on Business, Enterprise and Innovation recommended that we join or at least commence the process of seeking associate membership of CERN. I raised this issue here on 3 March 2022 as a Commencement matter with the Minister of State, Deputy Feighan. On that occasion, he seemed to indicate that the only concern was the cost and not the principle of joining CERN.
I will use an example to illustrate this point. One recommendation in the Government's Innovation 2020 strategy was that Ireland would join several other organisations, including the European Southern Observatory, ESO, the European Life-science Infrastructure for Biological Information, ELIXIR, and the Low Frequency Array, LOFAR, network. If we look at the outcome from our membership of the ESO, we will see that Irish HEIs and companies have already benefited enormously. Partly, this is because the Government has not just joined the organisation but it has also set out a national space strategy for enterprise. The impact of this is not necessarily concerned with what studying is going on in space, which has certainly been of benefit, but with how this affects our lives on the ground. Therefore, I am not just asking that we join CERN; I also believe we should have a national strategy for CERN which ensures that we can avail of the benefits of membership and that our researchers can be actively involved.
I thank Senator Byrne for raising this issue. I acknowledge that he did so previously as well. He also raised it at a recent meeting of the Fianna Fáil Parliamentary Party. I also acknowledge the presence of our guests in the Public Gallery from the research community.
Under the National Development Plan 2018-2027, as part of Project Ireland 2040, the Government outlined its intention to review Ireland's membership of CERN. The Government gave a specific commitment in Innovation 2020 to initiate discussions with several international research organisations. Four organisations were identified - CERN, the ESO, ELIXIR and LOFAR - and securing membership of three of these organisations has now been completed.
These organisations were identified based on a 2015 study that reviewed the costs and benefits of Ireland’s existing and potential international research organisation memberships. Impact 2030, the national strategy for research and innovation, undertakes a further review and optimises Ireland’s membership of international research organisations to ensure that our engagement reflects our existing and emerging strategic priorities.
This follows on from the Oireachtas report, The Case for Irish Membership of CERN, published in November 2019. It made three recommendations regarding Ireland’s potential membership of CERN. First, that negotiations start with CERN immediately with a view to Ireland becoming an associate member as soon as possible. Second, that after three years as an associate member of CERN, the Department will conduct a cost-benefit analysis of Ireland’s associate membership of CERN and assess whether there is a case to be made for moving towards full membership. Third, that efforts be made to fund the annual fee for associate membership of CERN from within the business, enterprise and innovation Vote.
The committee found that membership would generate opportunities not only for Irish enterprise, but also for its research community. It noted that membership would bring opportunities for Irish researchers to participate in CERN’s scientific programmes, working at the frontiers of scientific knowledge and using state-of-the-art technology and engineering. Membership would have other benefits, the committee stated. It would also enable researchers and companies in Ireland to collaborate with the best researchers and leading companies across Europe in the development of world-leading technology. Membership would provide new opportunities for Irish researchers to win funding from the EU framework programme, Horizon Europe, through their participation in CERN. Irish citizens would also be eligible for staff positions and fellowships at CERN. The opportunity of a scientific breakthrough and technological advances are significant benefits to CERN membership that do not necessarily give a quantifiable return. However, the committee also noted some concerns with the potential return for Ireland associated with the high cost of full membership. The report therefore considers that associate membership may be a better option. Associate membership would allow Ireland to have a reduced contribution. However, it would also limit the available return and Ireland would not have a say in major decisions taken by CERN.
Since the publication of the report, Irish officials have been in regular contact with CERN. Following the establishment of the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, active engagement with CERN has continued regarding the membership options for Ireland, the application process and the associated costs. While Ireland has made considerable progress in its participation in international organisations in recent years, it is acknowledged that membership of CERN would be the next step in consolidating that progress.
Current agreed estimates with CERN show that associate membership will cost €1.52 million per annum, subject to indexation, for a period of between three and five years. It should be noted that based on current indications received from CERN, the eventual cost if Ireland were to pursue full membership, at 2022 prices, would be circa €15.2 million annually and a one-off special contribution of about €19.1 million due on the same day a country becomes a full member. While the benefits of CERN membership are recognised as significant, the cost is also significant and must be addressed in the context of other Departmental and national investment priorities.
I am a little disappointed because we do not seem to be making much progress. The recommendation was to at least explore associate membership. There is very little difference between the answer the Minister of State delivered and that which the Minister of State, Deputy Feighan, delivered to me at the beginning of March. If we are to explore associate membership, we should set a timeframe. I would like the Minister of State to indicate a timeframe by which that could happen.
In all other areas, when work like this is done, a cost-benefit analysis is carried out. Why can one not be done in this area? With the European Southern Observatory, we are already seeing benefits flowing to Ireland. Why can a cost-benefit analysis not be done and published in a relatively short period of time?
As the Minister of State said, I raised this matter at the Fianna Fáil Parliamentary Party meeting. The Taoiseach is supportive of our membership of CERN and, in fact, he thought the process had already commenced. When will the associate membership process start? If there are questions about cost, and these seem to be the only questions being raised, will the Department commit to doing a cost-benefit analysis?
I again thank the Senator for raising this important matter. The whole area of research has stood by our country for a great many years, since we have invested heavily and expanded our whole research horizon. That is undoubted. I fully accept what the Senator says about having a national strategy. I will take that up within the Department. As for the process and the timeframe for associate membership, I will make the Minister, Deputy Harris, acutely aware of the Senator's concerns and those of the research community to have this matter dealt with expeditiously.
Legislative Programme
This Commencement matter asks the Minister for Health to make a statement on the proposed human tissue Bill, which has been mooted for so long. I have raised this issue here previously. On 10 November 2021, I asked the Minister to make a statement on the incineration of baby organs in Cork University Maternity Hospital, CUMH, and asked what changes he proposed to bring forward.
The backdrop to this is a sad case in which the organs of 18 children in the maternity hospital in Cork were incinerated without the knowledge or licence of their parents. The parents were horrified that this happened. It was the subject of an "RTÉ Investigates" report afterwards. These poor kids were lost and their organs, which were kept to understand what happened, were subsequently destroyed by incineration in Antwerp, Belgium.
We have been talking about bringing forward legislation to make sure that this could never again happen. As a matter of principle, we should have legislation to ensure this kind of issue can be dealt with so we do not have a scenario in which parents are now protesting again and looking for information as to when this legislation might be brought forward.
The Minister of State, Deputy Butler, took my previous Commencement matter on this issue and gave me a commitment that the work of the Parliamentary Counsel was progressing and that the Bill would be published by the end of 2021. 2021 has come and gone and there is no legislation that I can see. The Bill started its progress through the Oireachtas in 2019. It was proposed in May 2019. The damning issue here is that the Bill brings forward recommendations from a report published in early 2006 by the then Minister, Mary Harney. We have been fighting since 2006 to bring this legislation all the way through the Oireachtas so that parents in this unbelievable scenario will have due responsibility and due rights when it comes to these organs that are being kept for medical research and an understanding of what happens.
This is a traumatic moment for people. They have been promised legislation continuously but it has not been brought forward. This is the safeguard and the safety net they require at all times so they can make sure that the incident we have seen in Cork, which has also happened in other jurisdictions, will never again happen.
I spoke about baby Hope Kelleher when I raised this issue previously. Her parents contacted me from Australia about the issue. Her organs were destroyed. The parents had hoped her organs could be buried in a family plot. Her organs were never brought back to them. We need a timeline brought forward to ensure this can never happen again. The families affected have heard promises, promises, promises. The human tissue Bill has gone around these Houses since long before I came here. I want a timeline as to when the Bill will be published so we can get this legislation on the Statute Book and offer due protection in order that what happened in Cork in 2020 can never again happen.
I thank the Senator for bringing this important Commencement matter to the floor of the Seanad.
As committed to in the programme for Government, the enactment of the human tissue (transplantation, post-mortem, anatomical examination and public display) Bill remains a priority for the Government. It is complex legislation that will include provisions on organ donation, transplantation, hospital post mortem practice and procedures, anatomical examination and public display of bodies after death. In particular, the Bill seeks to further embed in legislation the idea that consent is a defining principle across all of these sensitive matters.
A key priority for the Government in bringing forward the Bill is to increase organ donation and transplantation rates and to make organ donations the norm in Ireland in situations where the opportunity arises. The human tissue Bill will help to achieve this through the introduction of a soft opt-out system of consent for organ donation under which consent will be deemed unless a person has registered a wish to not become an organ donor after death. The Bill will also legislate for living organ donation and altruistic donation, both of which will help to increase the donor pool in Ireland.
Given the complexity of the Bill, a number of challenges have been encountered in drafting the legislation that have had to be resolved before publication is possible. Among other things, officials have had to develop three separate regulatory frameworks and amend the extant EU directives of 2006 and 2012 accordingly. This has necessitated intensive engagement between the Department of Health and the Health Products Regulatory Authority, the Health Information and Quality Authority and the Medical Council. Department of Health officials have also undertaken an intensive round of engagement with stakeholders engaged in organ donation and transplantation over recent months to ensure the legislation meets the needs of this very important community.
As Senator Lombard is aware, as well as providing a legislative basis for organ donation and transplant the Bill will introduce a regulatory regime for the conduct of post mortems in hospital settings. Under the general scheme of the Bill provisions were to be restricted solely to hospital post mortem activities. However, in light of recent events a review is being undertaken to see whether an expansion of provisions to encompass certain aspects of coronial post mortem activities might be possible. Intensive engagement is ongoing between officials in the Department of Health and the Department of Justice with the Attorney General and his officials to find a resolution to this issue. Any solution found will be complementary to the recommendations of the recent HSE internal audit report on compliance by hospitals with the HSE standards and recommended practices for post mortem examination services and the work of the post mortem examination services group that is working on updating guidelines for post mortem practice. Department of Health officials continue to work on finalising the legislation and drafting the Bill and it is at an advanced stage. Government approval for publication of the human tissue Bill will be sought as soon as possible and is expected this Oireachtas term.
I thank the Minister of State. To say I am disappointed is an understatement. It is almost verbatim word for word of what I heard from the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, 11 months ago on this issue. On that occasion she told me the Bill would be published before the end of 2021. Now we are saying it will be done towards the end of this Oireachtas term. This is a frightening statement. The past 12 months have come and gone. These parents have no security when it comes to the legislation that has been promised. They have been through an horrendous experience and they need the State to stand up and make sure the failure in the legislative process that allowed this to happen will be dealt with.
I fully understand this is a complicated issue. I fully understand the great need for consultation. From what I heard 11 months ago, and from what I have heard this afternoon, unfortunately I have no confidence we will have the legislation published. It is a priority in the programme for Government. It is a priority in the legislative programme. It has been this way since 2019. We are trying to bring forward legislation that will enact a report published by the then Minister for Health and Children, Mary Harney, in 2006.
It is frightening that we do not have a timeline on when this legislation will be brought forward.
I again stress that the passage of the human tissue Bill remains a priority for the Minister of Health and the Government. While it is regrettable that publication of the Bill has been delayed, this reflects its complexity and the sensitivity of the areas is covers. The Bill will introduce safeguards to protect the integrity of the human body before and after death, and it will underpin the primacy of consent in these matters.
The legislation will support the Government's commitment to increase organ donation and transplantation in Ireland. More than €7 million additional funding has been provided for the development of services in recent years, which has, among other things, enabled the development of a dedicated national organ retrieval service, as well as the recruitment of additional staff across transplant services.
It is equally important that the regulation of the practice of post mortem examinations is advanced without inadvertently impacting on the crucial work of coroners. Officials in the Department of Health continue to work actively and intensively with the Attorney General and his office on resolving this and many other outstanding issues.
Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionraí ar 3.11 p.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ar 3.30 p.m.
Sitting suspended at 3.11 p.m. and resumed at 3.30 p.m.