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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 14 Dec 2022

Vol. 290 No. 14

Tailte Éireann Bill 2022: Committee and Remaining Stages

Sections 1 to 7, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 8

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 8, between lines 22 and 23, to insert the following:

"(8) Within six months of the passing of this Act, the Minister shall lay before the Houses of the Oireachtas a report of a review into the digitization of the land registry including proposed reforms to expedite land disputes where the title deeds are currently unclear due to issues with historic or digitized records.".

I welcome the Minister of State. He will be aware that there has been substantial digitisation of maps but that several anomalies arose in the process. Some may be attributable to historical disputes due to the maps themselves not being clear but some may be the result of the digitisation process. This is particularly important in respect of protected disputes relating to land ownership in rural areas. We would be very keen to have the Minister of State examine this issue further and produce a report on it. I would welcome his response. I may not contribute again, unless something arises.

I thank the Senator for his contribution. The proposed amendment relates to a report that Tailte Éireann be required to prepare, within six months of the passing of this Act, in respect of a review of the digitisation of the land registry and proposed reforms to expedite land disputes where title deeds are unclear. To add this additional function in the manner proposed would not have the effect sought by the Senators and would present practical difficulties, particularly taking into account the proposed timeframe for completing the report.

The national land register is a legal register that operates under a non-conclusive boundary system and is subject to the rights of those in possession. Where anomalies appear, the Property Registration Authority, PRA, can update the map under set protocols and in the absence of dispute. There may be instances where a property was mapped many years ago and the boundary on the ground now is not as it was at the time of registration. Boundaries can change over time for a variety of reasons.

Procedures exist to rectify boundaries on consent; otherwise, disputes are a matter for resolution in court. There is no intention to change the statutory legislation grounding the functions of the PRA, Ordnance Survey Ireland or the Valuation Office.

Tailte Éireann, when established, will be independent in the performance of its statutory functions, including the registration-of-title function. The PRA registers in accordance solely with the deeds, documents of title and maps lodged on application. Appeals arising from decisions made by it are a matter for the court by way of appeal under section 19 of the Registration of Title Act 1964. This will not change when the legislative functions of the PRA pass to Tailte Éireann under the Act.

It should be noted that, under section 23 of the Bill, Tailte Éireann may prepare and submit to the Minister such reports on its activities as it considers appropriate. In addition, under section 23, the Minister may give a direction to Tailte Éireann to prepare and submit a report, in writing, no later than such date as the Minister specifies in the direction, in regard to any particular matter relating to the functions of Tailte Éireann as the Minister considers appropriate. Therefore, it would not be appropriate to legislate for specific reports, as is envisaged by the proposed amendment. Unfortunately, therefore, I must oppose it.

I wish to contribute on the back of that amendment in respect of the Land Registry. My point relates to a matter we discussed previously. The Minister of State will be aware of the key role that the PRA was likely to have played if, as planned, it had moved ahead with the proposal to have any rights of way or profits à prendre not registered with it expire automatically last autumn. There was a very welcome decision by the Minister in response to me and others raising the issue to ensure no mass expiry of rights of way and profits à prendre. Rights of way and profits à prendre, which are not necessarily possessions, are currently registered with the PRA. Not all of them are, but many exist through lengthy use. For those that have been registered, what are the consequences under the transfer, even regarding the land registry and digitised land registry? Is there a separate register? I am almost looking for an update on the implications for those rights that do not entail ownership but that are property rights nevertheless, how they have been registered and how the transfer will work.

There will be no consequence.

Amendment put and declared lost.

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 8, between lines 22 and 23, to insert the following:

"(8) Within six months of the passing of this Act, the Minister shall lay before the Houses of the Oireachtas a report setting out further consideration by his Department and the Department of Justice on the transfer of responsibility for the Property Services Regulatory Authority to the Department of Housing and its location within Tailte Éireann.".

I had expected the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage to be here. It is probably more suitable that a Minister from the Department of Justice is here to deal with this amendment. The Bill considers three of the main bodies responsible for housing and property in the State but not the Property Services Regulatory Authority, PSRA. The placing of the latter within the Department of Justice means it is placed in a Department that is already overloaded.

In the view of Sinn Féin, the PSRA should be located within the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage because it has a more natural fit with the brief of that Department. Such a change would also facilitate greater reform of the regulatory function and regulation. Indeed, this was a recommendation of the Oireachtas committee. It is within the gift of the Department of Justice to facilitate this change. Although the Minister of State will probably not accept this amendment, I encourage him to begin those discussions within his Department, the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and the Cabinet as a whole.

I thank the Senator for his contribution. The intention of this Bill is to bring about the merger of the PRA, Ordnance Survey Ireland and the Valuation Office. The provisions of the Bill include the transfer of the current functions of these bodies into Tailte Éireann. It is not envisaged at this point to expand the current functions of the existing bodies during the merger process. As part of the pre-legislative scrutiny process for this Bill, the Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage recommended that the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage engage with the Department of Justice to consider integrating the PSRA with Tailte Éireann. I thank the Senators for their valuable contributions to the pre-legislative scrutiny process. The primary role of the PSRA is to regulate property service providers, namely auctioneers, estate agents, letting agents and property management agents. It is considered that the functions of the PSRA are not sufficiently closely aligned with the functions of the bodies already identified for Tailte Éireann, being the registration of deeds and title, State surveying and the valuation of rateable property. The Taoiseach, as head of Government under Article 13 of Bunreacht na hÉireann, is responsible for the allocation of functions between Ministers and for the overall organisation of the Government. Any changes to the functions are a matter for the Taoiseach and are not a matter to be dealt with in this legislation. Of course, these matters are always kept under review. Under the circumstances, I am opposing the amendment.

I do not think I will convince the Minister of State. Nevertheless, I will press the amendment.

Amendment put and declared lost.

I move amendment No. 3:

In page 8, between lines 22 and 23, to insert the following:

“(8) Within six months of the passing of this Act, the Minister shall lay before the Houses of the Oireachtas a report on the creation of a real time land transaction register similar to the Residential Property Price Register.”.

I urge the Minister of State to support this amendment. At the moment, there is a real-time registry of property prices, the property price index. If you are interested in a house that is for sale, you can check the property price register to get a range of information on other properties in the area. By contrast, the land market is the most opaque market we have, despite the huge costs that are associated with such purchases. Land costs vary widely depending on location and other factors. Indeed, land speculation is a huge factor in the ever-increasing cost of housing. There is a need for greater transparency in this regard. The location of such a register in Tailte Éireann is another recommendation that the Oireachtas committee made in its report. I would welcome the Minister of State’s response and I ask him to accept this amendment.

I understand the intention of this amendment is that Tailte Éireann would commission a report to explore the feasibility of creating a register for land transactions. While I appreciate the objective of the Senator’s amendment, I will mention a number of reasons I am not disposed to accept this proposal. As part of the pre-legislative scrutiny process for this Bill, the joint committee recommended that Tailte Éireann be given as one of its statutory functions the responsibility for maintaining a publicly accessible and searchable electronic register of land transactions that would include the price, location, size, zoning, date of sale and ownership details. This new register would operate on a similar basis to the existing residential property price register. With regard to data that are currently available on residential property sales prices, the PRA maintains the national land register, as Tailte Éireann will do on its establishment. The register is electronic, publicly accessible and searchable by anyone online at landdirect.ie.

A considerable amount of information is available. Such results give a description of the property, the date of registration, details of the owner and any burdens relating to the property, such as a mortgage or a right of way. Associated spatial data are also available. However, under current land registration legislation rules the national land register does not record property price. The property price register that is maintained by the PSRA, which is currently under the remit of the Department of Justice, holds information on residential properties by description only and includes price and date of sale. There is no associated spatial aspect.

The Civil Service Renewal 2030 programme includes the ambition "to develop and deliver trusted, evidence- and insights-informed public policy which advances the social, economic, cultural and environmental well-being of Ireland". Improved data quality, analysis and sharing can improve the evidence base for policy development and can drive more seamless delivery.

The pathways in Housing for All address challenges in our housing system. However, these do not exist in isolation but sit in a wider context. Under Housing for All, the Government's housing plan to 2030, the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage is committed to evidence-based policy development and will continue to improve data availability and analysis. The Government recently published its first annual update of the plan's actions, which sets out how the Government is responding to changed circumstances and ensuring that focus remains on delivery. Under the updated action 24.2 of Housing for All, the Government has committed to developing a national zoned housing land register, based on local authority development plans. This will build on the work that is under way for the introduction of the residential zoned land tax, which will be completed by quarter 1 of 2024.

We are also progressing proposals for the introduction of land value sharing measures in accordance with objective 8.1 of Housing for All. An updated general scheme of the land value sharing and urban development zones Bill was recently brought to the Government. This will be submitted for pre-legislative scrutiny to the Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage in early 2023.

As mentioned previously, there is already scope under the legislation for the Minister to call for reports. Therefore, it would not be appropriate to legislate for a specific report such as the report proposed here. The legislation provides that the board of Tailte Éireann will have the statutory power to guide generally the strategic direction of Tailte Éireann and to advise or make recommendations having regard to Government policy. I should point out that the Registration of Deeds and Title Act 2006 provides for the maintenance of a register of deeds and for the information to be contained within it. I am not convinced that the specific requirements proposed are necessary. Therefore, while I note the benefits of evidence to support policy development, as in the Senator’s proposal, the appropriate time for considering these matters is following the establishment of Tailte Éireann and the appointment of the board.

Amendment put and declared lost.
Question proposed: "That section 8 stand part of the Bill."

I have not tabled any amendments to this section because the matter I am raising has been provided for. My concern with regard to the transfer of functions from Ordnance Survey Ireland, OSI, relates to the fact that a new board structure will come in. There will be many new ideas. There will be huge pressure in relation to property registration, in particular. Things like zoned land will be key issues. I am a little concerned because it often happens when two bodies merge that some of the functions may not be as pressing or get as much political pressure. I refer, for example, to some of the functions that OSI has in its current mandate in respect of heritage, geographical features and ancient sites. These are all part of the mandate of OSI. I am a little concerned that some of the functions may not get the same attention when we transfer them. That is always the case when two bodies are blended and there are new strategies. I am noting my concern to ensure that when the functions are transferred, some of that geographic work, such as the tracking of our blanket bogs and heritage sites, does not become a poor relation under the new structure. That is a fear I have.

I do not know if we are about to run out of time but I would like to mention another measure. When two bodies blend together and a new body is established, we must ensure there is full archiving. I appeal to those involved to ensure nothing is lost from the physical archives of OSI in any transfer. These archives are extraordinarily important for the history, geographical history and heritage of our State.

I appeal to the Minister of State to ensure that those functions which may not get as much political attention but are vitally important are not lost or neglected under new agendas which may come under the body and that the physical archives are fully protected in the transfer.

I will follow on from what Senator Higgins has said. I do not know if any Senators have visited the Ordnance Survey Ireland, OSI, premises in the Phoenix Park. It is a unique and amazing premises. I have visited it and looked through many of the historical manuscripts and maps. It is an important facility. I raised this matter with the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, who happened to take part of this Bill, given that he has responsibility for heritage. It is a unique building and a protected structure. The historical maps and manuscripts in it are amazing.

The accuracy, colour and quality of the original ordnance and archive are rich. Many historians visit the building and a specialist trained group of people guard their job well. They love engaging. I have not been there in the past year or so, and do not know what is happening. These manuscripts are critical and need to be minded. I ask the Minister of State take that message back to the Minister. We need to be conscious of the significance, importance and great accuracy of these maps and manuscripts.

While the three bodies are merging, the functions will not change. I understand that is not the concern of the Senators but, rather, the concern is that the functions will retain their importance, in particular the OSI and its archives and important history. It is a unique facility. I expect the new body will respect that. Section 37 states that all records will transfer over and I expect that will be done in a professional manner and the archives will be protected for posterity. I have heard what the Senators have said and that message will be carried back to the Minister.

Accessibility to the archives is important.

I echo what Senators Boyhan and Higgins have said, namely, that the premises is an archival treasure. It was the residence of my uncle Niall MacNeill for many years. It is a protected structure I have visited on many occasions.

Question put and agreed to.
Sections 9 to 29, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 30
Question proposed: "That section 30 stand part of the Bill."

The transfer of land and other property comes up in a couple of places in the Bill. The Minister of State has heard about the value of the physical archive, and we will come to the content of the paper archive in a minute. The records are one piece. However, there are things that are not necessarily records. All archival material should be construed within the definition of "property". The particular property which is a great resource to the public and historians, when transferred, should maintain its function. I have not tried to amend the section, but I wish to convey the hope and expectation that the function of that particular property would be maintained in terms of being a public resource in the way that it is.

Question put and agreed to.
Sections 31 to 35, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 35
Question proposed: "That section 35 stand part of the Bill."

In respect of the transfer of staff, I welcome that the rights, terms and conditions of the staff will be maintained, including their superannuation, pension rights and so on. That is appropriate. I am concerned that we need to ensure that pension rights will be properly maintained. I am looking at the intersection of subsections (4) and (5) in that regard. The Bill seems to state that the terms and benefits will be no less favourable than applicable, but subsection 4, which guarantees the continuation of pension rights, might be subject to a requirement for consent or approval from the Ministers for Finance and Public Expenditure and Reform. I ask the Minister of State to clarify this. I do not know whether subsection (5) potentially undermines subsection (4).

I recognise that people's working terms and conditions may be transferred because the functions are changing and their roles may well change. I am trying to ensure that those who specialise in geology, geography or the documentation of geographic features are able to continue with those specialisations. There are some very specific specialists among the staff who will transfer. I ask that they do not end up working in filing and we lose some specialist functions or roles, even though their wages may stay the same.

All pension rights will be maintained. I am sure people's functions and skills will be treated in a similar manner. We cannot put that into legislation because some people will look for promotion in areas that may not be their normal area of work. I have no doubt that their skills will be recognised.

Question put and agreed to.
Section 36 agreed to.
SECTION 37
Question proposed: "That section 37 stand part of the Bill."

The Minister of State identified this section as relating to records. Records can be interpreted in a very narrow or wide way. Documents, maps and files are records, but the source documents which may have been involved in the creation of Ordnance Survey maps and materials input are also relevant. In many cases there is a huge historical archive in the process of mapmaking that OSI has undertaken. We know, for example, that place names are a key issue in Translations. OSI has had a particular mandate in terms of Irish and English place names, and is often very involved in strong local engagement, locally and historically, around the origins and appropriate translations of names. There is a wealth of material underneath the Ordnance Survey maps that we have. I urge the Minister of State to take the widest interpretation of records and not deal with end product pieces but also the ancillary materials that have contributed to a record. They are an incredible resource for us as a nation.

The section will be interpreted broadly. As somebody who in another life was involved in a number of boundary disputes at the Bar, I know the importance of all of those little pieces of evidence going back through history.

Presumably the National Archive legislation applies to all of these materials.

Question put and agreed to.
Sections 38 to 41, inclusive, agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment.

When is it proposed to take Report Stage?

Bill received for final consideration.

When is it proposed to take Fifth Stage?

Question, "That the Bill do now pass", put and agreed to.
Sitting suspended at 6.41 p.m. and resumed at 6.44 p.m.
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