I welcome the Tánaiste to the House. He has ten minutes to give his opening statement.
Report of the Independent Review Group on Dignity and Equality Issues in the Defence Forces: Statements
I thank Senators for the opportunity to contribute to this important debate. Having discussed the report of the independent review group in the Dáil on 30 March, it is important that Seanad Éireann should also have an opportunity to discuss it. I understand everyone here shares my view that the health, sustainability and strength of our Defence Forces is a question of fundamental national importance. I record my appreciation for the seriousness with which the Upper House has approached this issue.
The work and report of the independent review group raise the most profound issues. I am grateful to its chair, Bronagh O'Hanlon, and all those involved for the forthright manner in which the report is written and the clarity of its findings and recommendations. The value of the report has been demonstrated by the widespread support for its recommendations and the universal reaction of shock and dismay at its content and conclusions. People are understandably appalled that such unacceptable and appalling practices took place and continue to take place today in such a vital arm of the State. Many people, not least thousands of serving and former members of the Defence Forces, are disappointed and angry that the institution has been and continues to be let down by those who have behaved and continue to behave in such inappropriate and unacceptable ways.
It is important that we act quickly to build on the work of the review. A statutory inquiry is one of the logical and necessary next steps. Senators will be aware that I have obtained Government approval to establish the independent judge-led statutory inquiry recommended in the report. This inquiry will investigate whether there have been serious systemic failures in the complaints system in the Defence Forces in respect of interpersonal issues, including, but not limited to, sexual misconduct. As set out in my recent Dáil statement, I intend to bring forward terms of reference for the inquiry as soon as possible and to engage with stakeholders in their preparation. I am currently in consultation with the Attorney General on the appointment of a judge to lead the inquiry and I intend to bring a nomination to the Government in the coming weeks.
As I said in my initial response to the report, a completely honest appraisal of the problems and a comprehensive plan to address them is the only way to honour the contribution of serving and retired personnel. It is the only way to rebuild trust. In that spirit, I am clear that the Department of Defence must and will be included in the terms of reference of the statutory inquiry. It is vitally important that all stakeholders recognise that the transformation required, including the statutory inquiry, will address the issues that are important to them.
This moment of reckoning, this catalyst for change, has come about, first and foremost, because of the personal courage and resilience of those who decided to share their personal stories. I take this opportunity to express again my deep appreciation to all the groups, including Women of Honour and Women and Men of Honour, that have come forward. As I made clear when I addressed the Dáil on this subject, I look forward to engaging with all stakeholders when they have had the opportunity to consider the report in detail. In addition, we cannot ignore the findings of the Mohan report, published last month, which also point to the need for a complete reset in the Defence Forces culture with regard to responsibility and accountability.
While the independent review group report addresses the experience of both men and women and details some horrific abuse of both, the experience of many women within the Defence Forces, in particular, has been appalling. A reference in the report that has resonated far and wide is that the Defence Forces "barely tolerates women". At a time when it is recognised that we need more women in the Defence Forces, particularly at the higher ranks, such comments could hardly be more damaging. The conclusions regarding discrimination, particularly in respect of maternity policies, are scarcely believable in the context of a modern workplace.
The report identifies the major volume of work that now needs to be done, but I take this opportunity to inform Senators of some relevant work that is already being done. Everybody here will be aware of the recommendations from the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, on anti-discrimination law. With the assistance of an external legal firm, extensive work is already under way to ensure practice within the Defence Forces is compatible with the provisions of the relevant equality legislation and in line with the WRC direction. An associated, relevant and important element of this body of work is the area of maternity and protected leave policies. A number of policy documents, including regulatory amendments, are to be submitted to me shortly for consideration and approval.
As I have said since the publication of the report, resistance to change within the Defence Forces, as identified by the independent review group, is no longer an option. As Tánaiste and Minister for Defence, I will not tolerate it. As I and others have consistently said, any allegations of serious sexual misconduct are properly a matter for the criminal justice system. I have directed therefore, with immediate effect, that all allegations of sexual assault by serving members occurring in the State are to be referred directly to An Garda Síochána for investigation and prosecution. Legislation to formalise this will be brought forward without delay. Following publication of the report and discussions with my officials, the Garda Commissioner, Drew Harris, has established a helpline for victims of sexual assault to report historic or current cases. In addition, he has established a targeted operation to examine cases of alleged sexual assault in the Defence Forces. These are welcome initiatives.
As Senators are aware, An Garda Síochána does not have jurisdiction to prosecute offences that arise outside the State. However, we must make sure such investigations are carried out with all due diligence. The military police can and will continue to benefit from the guidance and expertise of An Garda Síochána in respect of offences that occur outside the State. To this end, my officials and the military authorities are currently examining options to formalise the level of guidance and co-operation to be provided by An Garda Síochána regarding overseas incidents.
Part of the reason the issues identified in the report have gone on for so long has been the prevalence of a culture in which victims did not feel empowered to speak up. There is a clear and immediate need to remove the fear of reprisals and retaliation for making a complaint, which many people feel would be career-ending to do. I will bring forward legislation without delay to establish an independent complaints system.
In the meantime, I have emphasised, and I reiterate today, that serving members can submit their complaints directly to the Ombudsman for the Defence Forces without having to submit themselves to internal processes first. The development, also without delay, of a retaliation prevention strategy with appropriate and robust sanctions will be another critical element in tackling and beating the culture of fear and silence where unacceptable behaviour is concerned. Separately, the recommendations of the recent Commission on the Defence Forces are also important. The strategic framework we are putting in place to drive these through will be an important enabling mechanism for delivery of the independent review group's, IRG’s, actions.
There have been many reports and plans in the past, and I want to acknowledge the work that was done by Senator Tom Clonan in this area almost a quarter of a century ago. However, my priority now is to ensure there is one strategic plan for the transformation of the Defence Forces, fully understood by everyone, that has the appropriate governance and reporting mechanisms and is properly resourced. I want progress to be seen internally and to be reported externally. Clear and irrefutable evidence of change on the ground is the only thing that will rebuild the trust and confidence of serving members. Our end goal has to be a safe workplace where self-worth is actively promoted and mutual respect becomes a dominant feature in an organisation which is open to change. I want a career in the Defence Forces to be one where every individual feels valued, respected and recognised for the positive contribution they are making to the country’s security.
The establishment and work of the external oversight body, recommended in the report, will be a critical element in achieving this goal. I am pleased to report progress on this front. The report recommended eight appointments from specific categories of expertise. I have already appointed six of these, including the independent chair, Professor Brian MacCraith, and I intend to complete the process in the near future. I am pleased to confirm that the oversight group met for the first time on 17 April. I have spoken to the chair and understand that the meeting was professional and productive. Once the body is fully established with its full membership in place, I will then introduce legislation to put it on a statutory footing.
The implementation of the IRG’s recommendations will require a considerable and shared effort, not least on the part of the Defence Forces’ leadership, and I am confident, following extensive discussions with the Chief of Staff, that the scale of what is needed is understood. The last month has been a very challenging period for the Defence Forces, but for the good, professional people of integrity who serve, it also marks a new start. For the perpetrators of any form of unacceptable, misogynistic or bullying behaviour, this has to be the end of it. I am clear they must have no place and no future in Óglaigh na hÉireann.
Our Defence Forces are made up, in the overwhelming majority, of men and women who have made the decision to pursue a career in the service and security of their country. As a Government, we have made it clear that we will make the unprecedented investment necessary to build a Defence Forces that is fit for purpose and worthy of the oath they swear. With the support of the Houses of the Oireachtas, we will pass the legislation necessary to ensure that the Defence Forces is the quality workplace they deserve.
Our Defence Forces are and have been a key pillar of Irish life since before the foundation of our State. They have been central to the presentation of our foreign policy in the world and our record as a nation strongly committed to the rules-based international order. When I think of the young men and women in our Defence Forces that I have met across the country and overseas, and those that will come after them, I am hugely encouraged in the belief that their personal character and courage, their leadership and commitment, will help ensure that Óglaigh na hÉireann will come through this crisis, that the contribution they make can continue and that they excel in the years and decades to come.
Thank you. I remind Senators that group spokespersons have eight minutes and all other Senators five. I call Senator McGreehan.
I welcome the Tánaiste to the House. It is with great humility and sadness that I stand before him today to address the subject of the extreme and vile sexual violence in the Irish Defence Forces. As a nation, we have always prided ourselves on the honour and valour exhibited by our military personnel. We have a very proud legacy but, sadly, like many organisations, it has a desperate stain on its history. We must acknowledge that this report and our statements here today are not about the persecution of the Defence Forces but to drive forward and ensure the prosecution of the predators, and to protect and empower the victim. The many allegations of sexual violence within the Defence Forces have left us all shocked, disgusted and deeply saddened. It is our duty and responsibility to address these allegations in a timely and effective manner, to ensure that justice is served for all who have been affected, and that they are taken care of, with counselling and whatever they need.
While we rightly congratulate the Tánaiste on both the speedy publication and acceptance of the report of the independent review group into the Defence Forces, and I commend his commitment to implementing a comprehensive programme of immediate actions to address the shocking findings of this report, we should both acknowledge and regret that it took a sustained campaign by the Women of Honour group to bring us to this point. Through their work over the years, and more recently in their campaigning, they have done the State a great service. Their tireless persistence and calmness in the face of what we should now acknowledge was bureaucratic inertia is not just commendable, it is inspirational. They have shown us that you either stand for change or you do not stand at all.
We have a responsibility to change this State’s bureaucratic inertia. The situation cannot continue where victims have to go on the airwaves to embarrass the State into action. I am incredibly sick of the “nothing to see here” attitude in this country until people like Katie Hannon give people a platform to air their deepest, darkest, most traumatic moments to the entire nation. Victims should not have to do that to be heard. Time and time again, the privacy of someone’s life trauma has to get to the headlines to be heard and believed, and to get some accountability from the State.
I welcome the Tánaiste’s thorough endorsement of the report. The report states, “Respondents cited making a complaint as being career ending, and reported experiencing intimidation and acts of retaliation when they did make a complaint.” Elsewhere, the report reveals a workplace where self-worth and value are negated and disrespect is a dominant feature in an organisation resistant to change. It is truly damming, yet not surprising to me. When sexual intimidation, assault and violence are present, these are the very tools that predators use to control. This Government talks quite a bit about zero tolerance of gender-based violence but, as a woman, I feel that violence is tolerated through inaction, inertia and the inability of the State to change quickly enough to deal with the type of crime that is sexual violence. It is a different type of crime and it requires the State and justice system to act differently.
I commend the Tánaiste and his officials on what he has done to date and he has clearly outlined the incredible amount of work done since the report was published, which is all very welcome. I am very pleased and relieved to see that the Women of Honour’s primary and long-standing call for the establishment of a statutory inquiry has been agreed. I commend the Tánaiste on moving to establish this statutory inquiry - I hope the bulk of it can be heard in public - and for committing to establish an external oversight body on a statutory basis. These are very important decisions, both for the short and long-term future of our Defence Forces. Together, they will contribute to the betterment of the Defence Forces. This will be achieved through the investigation and identification of all issues and contributory factors, and a comprehensive understanding of the organisation’s failures. We must encourage more women into Óghlaigh na hÉireann. It is a good career but when there are questions like this, it does not seem attractive. We have a way to go but with a change of culture and improvement of pay and conditions, we can give more encouragement.
As a woman who grew up in this country, I know what it is like to be harassed, what it is like for a country not to speak up about sexual assaults. You do not want to be that young girl causing trouble. You do not want to be labelled as something you are not. Young women have grown up in this country knowing they have to “put up and shut up”. It is embarrassing now that I am older to think that among my peers, all of this was known and was common, but it was unsaid. Who were we going to say it to? It was our fault for putting ourselves in that position, for just being girls, for being vulnerable, for simply existing. Because of this, I genuinely want to express my real gratitude to all those who have come forward to share their experiences of sexual violence in the Defence Forces. Your courage, your bravery, is an inspiration to all of us. You are part of a societal change of empowerment for women to collectively and individually take a stand, to demand to be heard, to demand justice and to demand a safer place.
Time is of the essence, which I know the Tánaiste recognises. Delays will only undermine the positive work done. This is an urgent situation. The issue is important for us all and for the integrity of our Army. We need to know and trust that the State has the victims’ backs, and that the culture of “Say nothing, put up and shut up” is gone.
I thank Senator McGreehan.
I stand before the Tánaiste today a proud veteran of the Irish Defence Forces. Every officer, NCO and service person of the Defence Forces, serving and retired, with whom I have engaged since the publication of the report has expressed a welcome for the statutory inquiry and for any Garda investigation of wrongdoing in the Defence Forces. All expressed strongly that any wrongdoing should face the full rigours of the law.
Page 10 of the IRG report clearly states the IRG did not partake in fact finding with any individual participant, yet the Minister accepted the findings of the report unequivocally as fact and expressed the view that he was going to deliver cultural change in the Defence Forces. I hope he read more than the executive summary and did a detailed analysis of the appendices as well. If he had, he may not be so certain of the findings and his condemnation of the Defence Forces.
He has referred to the findings as outlined in the report as very troubling and used the word "disgusting" to describe them. Where did findings like overt preference of a masculine culture, an over-emphasis on physical fitness, misogyny and little tolerance of women come from? Where is the basis of fact in this report? The judge listened to the unacceptable lived experiences of individuals. None of these lived experiences were examined or interrogated to establish fact, yet they are presented as fact. The judge made sweeping generalisations using the extreme and unproven lived experience to cast grave allegations against the entire Defence Forces. Where is the fact in the report ? Where is the evidence to support the finding?
This report has thrown a cloud over members past and present, where a judge simply became judge, jury and executioner. The report would not stand the test of any academic assessment and the report methodology used would not support any findings. The findings are not fact but generalisations. The proud history of the most loyal citizens of the State has been undermined by generalisations, not fact. All jumped on the bandwagon for some reason, perhaps because they knew the Defence Forces cannot comment publicly to defend themselves and are unable to speak openly to the press. Now we have Defence Forces which are unable to defend themselves and Ireland.
Let us talk about resistance to change in the Defence Forces. How many reorganisations have Governments imposed on the Defence Forces in the past 20 years, driven by budgetary concerns and often against the advice of the military? Every reorganisation was delivered effectively with no resistance once the Government decision was made.
The Government employed a third assistant secretary general in 2017 for the Department of Defence. The post was assistant secretary for defence capability. We were told the objective was to deliver HR change in the Defence Forces. How many HR initiatives did the person appointed bring forward? Can anyone name one that the Defence Forces refused to implement? In fact, I would question if any were brought forward, yet the judge rubbished the HR policies. Is that the fault of the Department or of the Defence Forces?
The independent monitoring group was established in 2001 following a report from my colleague, Senator Clonan. Is it not the case that every one of this group's findings were implemented by the Defence Forces? Where does the judge see resistance to change? The recent intervention in the media by the first Ombudsman for the Defence Forces, Paulyn Marrinan Quinn SC, shows the success of the independent monitoring group, IMG, and Defence Forces as best in class. The IMG was shut down by the Department in 2014 when it was doing an excellent job. Why did that happen?
The Tánaiste, as Minister for Defence, puts our Defence Forces in harm's way every day. It is part of his job. The report stated there was too much emphasis on physical fitness. The Defence Forces face potential life-threatening situations every day. There may be a requirement to use lethal force to protect themselves, refugees in camps in Africa or Irish citizens being evacuated from Sudan. Soldiers need to be fit, strong and resilient, and neither I nor anyone else should make any apology for this. The Defence Forces training reflects these realities.
Regarding the culture of the Defence Forces, there is no doubt that among HR professionals who are subject matter experts in organisational culture and how one assesses organisational cultures, the findings in the report of such an extreme view could not possibly be arrived at from any true representative independent survey of culture. I question whether an empirical survey was carried out as there is zero evidence that one was conducted.
The report took input that was unquestioned and untested from a very small representative sample of those who alleged rape, sexual harassment or felt they were unfairly treated, and based the report's analysis on that. How did the Minister or Department not recognise the shortcomings in the report before accepting it in its totality and condemning the Defence Forces?
The same position exists for Defence Forces leadership. The judge did not in any way reflect the excellent comprehensive leadership training in the Defence Forces. A suggestion that the leadership is dishonest and untruthful is simply a scurrilous comment and has no basis in fact. How can any credible report describe officers and NCOs as akin to characters from a Marvel film? Where is the credibility of these unreasonable ramblings?
The Tánaiste must move quickly to set up the statutory inquiry, and I am glad he has confirmed that today. It must run parallel to the Garda inquiry. Together with the Chief of Staff, Lieutenant General Seán Clancy, and the Secretary General, Ms Jacqui McCrum, we must ensure the bullies and those involved in inappropriate sexual behaviour are rooted out and face the law.
As it is clear that the Department of Defence has many questions to answer, I believe the independent oversight body must be totally independent of those serving in the Defence Forces and the Department of Defence and must report only to the Minister. Clearly, it would be wrong to include the Secretary General from the Department, albeit she is relatively new in the post, as this gives out the wrong signal to those who are serving or retired.
I compliment the Tánaiste on the work he is about to do. I am deeply hurt, like so many of my colleagues who served, that we all have been tarred with the one brush. A simple sentence in the report stating that prima facie evidence was found that required a statutory inquiry would have sufficed. Instead of that, we have a report that has tarred the whole God damned lot of us as sexual predators and bullies. I am proud of the service I gave to my country, as are thousands of men and women, hundreds of whom have contacted me in recent days. They are deeply hurt by this report.
I thank Senator Craughwell. Before I call on Senator Ward, I would like to acknowledge students from St. Michael's College, Ailesbury Road. The students have left but were present for some of the proceedings.
Cuirim fáilte roimh an Tánaiste agus gabhaim buíochas leis as ucht teacht anseo chun díospóireacht a dhéanamh linn ar an ábhar tábhachtach seo.
I welcome a lot of what the Tánaiste said. The recognition in his speech has been tremendously important. I also share his pride in the Defence Forces and what they do for us as a country and individually. When they come to our aid, we know we can depend on them. The reputational benefits we have from them and the work they do throughout the world consistently and honourably is something that makes us all very proud. It is also work that is tremendously important. It establishes our reputation with our European neighbours and countries throughout the world that need their help in peacekeeping and other roles.
Irish people generally are enormously proud of the role the Irish Defence Forces have played, particularly in conjunction with the United Nations in terms of bringing the values we hope underpin this State to countries where there has been conflict and other enormous difficulties. I start this discussion from the point that we are consistently proud of their activities. Any time I have engaged with members of the Defence Forces in Ireland or abroad, I am reassured that they are people of enormous quality, skill, integrity and dedication, which is not to say that like any other organisation, there are not bad apples in the barrel. Of course there are. That is true as much of these Houses as it is of the Defence Forces or any company, body, profession or whatever it might be. No organisation is immune from the fact that people within it sometimes do not respect the norms. The value of the Defence Forces cannot be doubted, however, and is not undone by the report we are discussing in this debate.
What the report does, however, is highlight to us serious deficiencies within the Defence Forces. It highlights to the Tánaiste and to us as Members of the Oireachtas the actions that need to be taken to deal with issues that have been brought to the fore by the people he described in his speech, who have made very brave decisions to come out and tell a story that has been extraordinarily difficult to tell. It is not without risk either because, of course, they expose their colleagues and senior officers. To do so is an extremely difficult and brave thing to do. We should at no point gainsay the kind of courage that has been involved.
I am disappointed in the context of this debate by the speech we have just heard, which starts from the point of doubting every finding of the report and the matters within, which may not have been established beyond a reasonable doubt because this was not at the end of the day a criminal trial. This was a report that was done which gathered evidence. Senator Craughwell asked where the evidence was. The evidence is in the testimony and bravery of the people who brought these problems and illegal acts and crimes to light. That is where the evidence is.
It is absolutely possible to distinguish between the Defence Forces on the whole and its good members - I refer to the record of the Defence Forces and its individual members in bringing honour and an important sense of justice to this country - and certain other individuals. I say this with reference to no individual and without reference to any name or anything like that, but I have no doubt whatsoever in listening to what has been said by the Women of Honour and other groups that there are individuals with the Defence Forces who have carried out acts that are absolutely unconscionable and reprehensible and who need to be dealt with.
I do not approach this report from the starting point that this is somehow something that should hurt members of the Defence Forces. Unfortunately, this is something of a theme in the contributions Senator Craughwell has made in this Chamber with regard to the Defence Forces. Extraordinarily, when I speak to members of the Defence Forces, they acknowledge that there are problems with certain members. They acknowledge that there are issues that need to be addressed and that we inherited in many respects a culture from a former colonial power, which has continued to this day within the Defence Forces. More importantly, as I understand it, the management of the Defence Forces has acknowledged that there are issues that need to be addressed.
The starting point for dealing with these issues is not to deny them. It is not to say we are hurt to hear the suggestion that the Defence Forces are not perfect or that there are problems despite the fact that people acknowledge that on a day-to-day basis. The starting point must be - God knows in this Chamber we talk about issues like this, particularly in the context of violence against women - to listen to what they have to say and take on board that they are saying there is a problem. Instead of saying that there is no problem here because they do not have irrefutable evidence and that we do not accept what they say, the starting point must be to ask them to tell us what the problem is and how we can fix it, and then start the procedure. I refer to the very process the Tánaiste has been talking about to start to solve the problems. The reputational, attitudinal and cultural problems within the Defence Forces have been established, maybe not beyond a reasonable doubt or to a criminal standard, but to a sufficient standard in my view that we must recognise as a House and as politicians and members of society that we must take action on those problems. I will not stand here and say we should step back and disbelieve those people or somehow disregard the evidence, which is testimony. Testimony is evidence and that is often what is brought to bear as evidence in criminal trials. It can ultimately be found by a jury to a criminal standard. I am not going to disregard that evidence, however.
I accept what the members of the Women of Honour group have said. I accept what those who have been the victims of heinous crimes with the Defence Forces have said. I do not think that means every member of the Defence Forces should hang his or her head in shame; I think quite the opposite. Those who acknowledge it and recognise that we must take action to deal with those problems are the strongest members of the Defence Forces. If we do not deal with those problems, all the work we are putting together and all the things we are talking about in this Chamber about improving the lot of its members and investing in the Defence Forces, which is work that has been done by the Tánaiste and his predecessor, the Minister, Deputy Coveney, in terms of accepting the recommendations of the Report of the Commission on the Defence Forces, will be for nothing. The purchase of coastal patrol vessels and the changes in pay and conditions will all be for naught if we do not address the cultural issues within the Defence Forces. That has to be a starting point because otherwise we are throwing good money after bad. I absolutely agree with what the Department of Defence is doing. In the light of a global insecurity that is closer to home than it has been for a very long time, I am delighted to see this country taking seriously its role in terms of equipping our Defence Forces to do the job we expect them to do, which is to defend us if the need arises, to know what is going on, to have a proper radar system that sees what is coming over our western seaboard, to enable us to be involved in peacekeeping operations and to enable us to rescue our citizens from Sudan when a situation like that arises, which we cannot do at the moment.
I am absolutely behind the notion that we should be putting in place measures to allow our Defence Forces to do the job we expect them to do and hope they can do. It is all for nothing, however, if we do not deal with a culture that has been identified. We cannot somehow deny there is a problem and bury our heads in the sand and say we are hurt by this suggestion instead of saying we want to hear more about how we can solve this and ask what we need to make sure the Defence Forces is an equal place for people, regardless of whether they are men or women, or whatever part of the country or whatever country they are from. I was in the Netherlands on St. Patrick's Day and the LÉ William Butler Yeats was there. The crew of that would make one proud to be Irish. As I understand it, at least six of them are not Irish. The Defence Forces is moving into a modern phase. If it is to properly become modern, it must change with regard to the very issues that have been identified in this report.
I absolutely welcome what the Tánaiste said and the strength of the language he used in dealing with it. Let us not be equivocal about this. Let us be bloody clear that we are not going to tolerate this kind of behaviour and that we are going to move forward in a way that addresses and fixes it and makes the Defence Forces a place people would want their son or daughter or brother or sister to go and serve and benefit us all.
Cuirim fáilte roimh an Tánaiste. First of all, I welcome this report. It is very good that we carried it out. It is a starting point but tús maith leath na hoibre. It is important to put on the record of the House some of the findings of the report. I will quote a few of them. The report states that "at best, the Defence Forces barely tolerates women, and, at its worst, verbally, physically, sexually and psychologically abuses women in its ranks.” This has been happening for 40 years and continues to this day. One of the women was reported as saying that to be female in the Irish Defence Forces is to be considered an object rather than a full human being.
Some of the practices in the organisation were and are horrendous. One of these was "tubbing", which refers to “the placing of an individual in a barrel, which may contain any combination of chemicals, oil, airplane fuel, deceased animal carcasses, or other substances, for the purposes of hazing or punishment.” In the report, women described being subjected to weekly punishment, particularly on career development or promotional courses. This was both in terms of "physical and mental torture." Female members of the Defence Forces were also advised to “maintain two locks on their cabin or bedroom doors if there has been an attempt to assault or forcibly enter their sleeping quarters in the past.”
The story of Roslyn O'Callaghan is particularly outrageous. She was raped by a senior member of the Defence Forces. After reporting the incident, she was told there was insufficient evidence to charge her alleged attacker with sexual assault or rape. The attacker ended up receiving just a €200 fine. This is an organisation that obviously needs serious changes. In the current security context, it does not seem like an organisation that is ready to defend this country or one that can protect our subsea cables and territories if we cannot protect our own women. We must ensure that these allegations are acted upon. It will take far more than just a few cosmetic changes. This is a systematic and cultural issue that runs through the whole organisation. Unfortunately, the Defence Forces are not the only places where we see the patriarchy being very strong to the detriment of women.
First, what justice will there be for victims? Will the perpetrators of abuse be brought to justice? Will investigations that were done within the Defence Forces by military police be reopened? It is encouraging to hear that the Garda Commissioner is opening an investigation following the publication of the report as An Garda Síochána has received 26 complaints and is expecting to receive more.
We need to ensure that legislation is amended in order to allow for Garda jurisdiction to investigate these complaints. We also need to encourage any victims to come forward, in the knowledge that their complaints will be properly handled this time.
Second, what will be done to completely change this culture? The make-up of the oversight body is promising, with experts in organisational behaviour, including in gender. There is also organisational transformation at scale and at rapid pace. We need to make sure this body is not impeded by the organisations it is overseeing and that it is allowed access. When we are setting up the new body, it is important that we have a minimum of 50% women involved. I strongly suggest that we have many more women than men involved in the group because that is a huge part of the issue. When there is a gender imbalance, things go wrong. If we want gender balance in every walk of life, including in the Defence Forces, how can we expect any woman to want to join the Defence Forces with the findings of this report?
I know many good men in the Defence Forces. We need to be careful not to tar them all with the same brush. At the same time, because gender imbalance and sexual assault keep coming up in every walk of life, often the men who say nothing are part of the problem. Being passive and not calling out bad behaviour when he sees it, makes a man part of the problem unfortunately. We need the good men to stand up and call things out when their fellows are doing wrong to women, in every walk of life, not just the Defence Forces.
Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire ar dtús báire agus cuirim fáilte roimh an deis na ráitis tábhachtacha seo a phlé inniu. A few weeks ago the Dáil also debated the report from the independent review group that reviewed the dignity and equality issues in the Defence Forces and its treatment of its personnel, male and female but in particular female members. The comments in the Dáil debate, from seasoned, experienced and I am not saying that in an unkind way, case-hardened elected representatives, is alarming in itself. I thought it would help us to focus today’s debate in the Seanad if I gave a flavour of that debate. Before I do, I would like to make a few general observations which are basic and would strike most people, I hope, as a common-sense response to this very disturbing report.
How could abuse on the scale detailed in the report, especially of female personnel, take place under the different command levels of the Defence Forces over a period of nearly 20 years? How could abuse on this scale escape the attention of many Governments, many Ministers of Defence and officials of the Department of Defence during this long period? The Defence Forces and their personnel are one of the most cherished, valued and respected institutions of this State, and rightly so, as other colleagues have said. The personnel of the Defence Forces have served the State on peacekeeping missions throughout the world with distinction and outstanding bravery and dedication. Yet the independent report reveals a cesspool of physical, sexual and emotional abuse of the very people who have rightly been described so admirably here in Ireland and in many parts of the military and political world.
Incredible though it may seem, it is not at all surprising that faced with such a dysfunctional, inhuman regime, the authors of the independent report should state that the Defence Forces are not a safe place for its personnel. The very institution which has the lives of millions of people in this State in its hands, to protect them, cannot in the first instance protect its personnel from rapists, sexual predators, torturers and abusers within its own ranks.
The independent report is before us because of the bravery and determination of the women known as the Women of Honour, as well as those who supported them and believed in them in their own families and inside the Defence Forces. It is before us because of the work of our colleague, Senator Clonan, who first published a report in 2000, that is, 23 years ago. I look forward to Senator Clonan’s contribution today. In his report he showed that one in four women serving in the Defence Forces had been subjected to sexual abuse. On the back of that report a Government study review group was set up in 2003 by then Minister, Michael Smith. Katie Hannon's documentary "Women of Honour", which was broadcast in September 2021 was ground-breaking and compelling. The issues raised could no longer be ignored. On several occasions over many years, Sinn Féin Deputies raised this issue. In February 2022, my colleague, Deputy Clarke, brought a motion to the Dáil calling on the Government to establish a full statutory inquiry in allegations of abuse. Why did alarm bells not ring in the heads of the commanders of the Defence Forces in 2000, 2003 and 2022? Why did alarm bells not ring in the heads of the Taoiseach and other Government Ministers with responsibility in 2000, 2003 and 2022?
I note some of the alarming comments from the Dáil debate last month, some of which were from the Tánaiste himself. They stated the findings are stark, shocking, shameful and disgusting, referred to "horrific abuse of both men and women"; and stated "the experience of many women in particular within the Defence Forces has been truly appalling".
A line from the report states that the Defence Forces "barely tolerates women". Another comment in the Dáil debate was, "It details the deliberate, orchestrated, repeated and systemic abuse of power that crossed a line to abuse, assault, humiliate, dehumanise and strip people of their dignity, safety, in many cases their careers and, most likely in some cases, their lives." Another Deputy stated, "Bullying, harassment, intimidation, discrimination, assault and rape - what is hazing if not a form of torture?"
Another speaker quoted one of the Women of Honour, Yvonne O’Rourke, who had told The Irish Times:
We need a statutory inquiry like no other... I like to think of it as a David and Goliath moment ... We need this inquiry to fire a slingshot and bring about ... much-needed change and transformation ... The question remains - will our voices finally be heard and will the silence that so many of us held on to for so many years in the past, due to the crippling shame that the experience of being sexually abused and discriminated against bestowed on us, finally be removed? Is this really a watershed moment?
She asks, "will our voices finally be heard"?”
Who in this Chamber with the real power to answer that question can do so with conviction and certainty? We saw the Government's response to the mother and baby homes inquiry and the bitter disappointment of those who had the harrowing experience of being detained in one of those institutions. The Dáil was unanimous in its outrage, condemnation and support of the valuable report and its authors. I welcome the Tánaiste's announcement and the Government's decision to set up a statutory inquiry, an external independent complaints process, an external oversight body and a legal mechanism for sexual assault allegations to be investigated by An Garda Síochána. However, what possible credible explanation can the Government give to defend the presence of the Secretary General of the Department of Defence as a full-time member of the external oversight body of the Defence Forces? No one associated with the Defence Forces, with the Government or associated bodies with a vested interest should be anywhere near this inquiry. The report was the product of independent-minded people. The inquiry must meet the test of Yvonne O’Rourke and the Women of Honour; a statutory inquiry like no other. I do not believe that is too much to ask. I hope it will turn out to be precisely that.
I welcome the Tánaiste to the House to discuss this important report and the urgent actions needed to address the major and worrying concerns raised throughout the report. As colleagues have said, it is right that the report also acknowledges that the Defence Forces have a proud and rich legacy that is recognised and highly respected at home and abroad. It is a legacy on which many in the Defence Forces have worked hard to develop. Many are rightly proud of their service in building that reputation. It is always important to put that on the record.
However, this report highlights practices and procedures that are simply unacceptable, not fit for purpose and out of date in any modern Defence Forces. Such practices and procedures nobody can ever stand over and would never address, prevent or solve the bullying, harassment, including sexual harassment, this report outlines. It is important to use this opportunity to thank the Women of Honour who bravely came forward to tell RTÉ’s Katie Hannon of the depth of the issues at play in the Defence Forces. Their courage is at the heart of this report. Unfortunately however, this report reveals that more than a third of Defence Force personnel were harassed while serving and in the majority of cases, it was on more than one occasion. It is also, as the Tánaiste has himself done, important to thank the men of honour, and indeed to thank our colleague, Senator Clonan, tonight in this House. They have been brave enough to come forward with the worrying highlights over many years.
We welcome the announcement of the statutory inquiry. As the Tánaiste himself said, it is vital that the terms of reference for this inquiry are correct and appropriate for what needs to happen. However, in putting together the terms of reference for this inquiry, the Women of Honour must be included in drawing them up, as I have previously said in this House.
It is also essential that the representative groups of those serving are involved and encouraged to be part of the drawing up of these terms of reference. We welcome the setting up of the external oversight body to increase transparency and accountability. As the report recommends, it is important that this body drive the necessary culture changes throughout the Defence Forces. This change is essential to the future of the Defence Forces in this country. We also support the finding in this report to amend the Defence Act 1954 to provide that all allegations of rape or aggravated sexual assault in the Defence Forces in the State will be referred to An Garda Síochána for investigation. The fear of reporting such incidents as outlined in the report demands such a measure. Respondents cited making a complaint as being career ending and reported experiencing intimidation and acts of retaliation when they did so. We also welcome the reports that the Minister of Defence has requested and has reiterated tonight that the Chief of Staff should communicate to commanding officers that this is to be implemented with immediate effect.
The Minister is reported as saying that this report is a watershed moment. It simply has to be. It states that women are viewed as occupying low status in the Defence Forces. They are barely tolerated. The problems that exist will not go away without immediate and significant steps being taken to address them. Notwithstanding the role of the Defence Forces, neither men or women are working in a safe environment. This is a damning part of any report. The Commission on the Defence Forces seeks to increase the number of women serving. This must be an ambition for everybody involved in supporting and strengthening our Defence Forces. The issues of recruitment and retention are well known. Is it any wonder that only 44 women joined the force in 2021, given the scale of the culture crisis outlined by this report? Yes, it is right that we must invest in our Defence Forces providing the radar, the planes and the equipment for those who serve. They deserve as much and we will support that. It is important that we address conditions and pay and the working time directive once and for all as is outlined in the commission's report.
It is also time we addressed the issue of dereliction on our military bases. I want to take this opportunity, as I have done on previous occasions, to address what is happening in the Curragh. I know it is something that Minister has come out on as well. We need to address the dereliction at the Curragh to provide homes for those who so proudly serve.. However, tonight is about the IRG report. We once again want to thank the Women of Honour and all of those who came forward for their bravery to help in preparing this report. It is indeed a watershed moment for our Defence Forces. The actions outlined must happen as quickly as possible. The Labour Party supports all of these actions. We must make our Defence Forces a safe working environment where bullying, discrimination and sexual abuse simply did not exist. The future of the Irish Defence Forces depends on it
I welcome the Minister to the House. It is my first time seeing him here in the Chamber. I am very glad that time has been set aside for statements on this very damning and devastating report. I have to say it is one of the most harrowing documents that I have read in my time as a public representative. I want to congratulate its authors on their diligent work which must have been extremely difficult and draining. I want to thank all the people who spoke to the authors of the report. Their brave decision to share their experiences will generate change and they should be very proud of that. Like others, I also want to commend the Women of Honour. We would not be having this moment of reckoning without their heroic campaigning. I have to mention Senator Tom Clonan whose PhD thesis, published 23 years ago, blew the whistle on this issue. He has faced horrifying reprisal from bad actors in the Defence Forces, yet he has never backed down. He has shown himself to be a courageous and principled individual and a powerful example of how men can stand up for the rights and dignity of women. We need men like Tom in every part of our society. We need men will stand up and say, no this is unacceptable, we need to do better. He is a credit to this House.
It is really hard to discuss a report like this. I do not want to just repeat its most upsetting findings. I encourage anyone who is in the right mental space to read it themselves. To summarise, bullying, harassment, physical and sexual assault are widespread, systematic issues that have impacted huge numbers of people serving in the Defence Forces. These issues have been going on for many years without effective intervention. A culture of fear has been created where people justifiably believe that reporting abuse will be career ending. It is absolutely horrifying that people are enduring such poor treatment and are unable to speak out about it and get justice.
As a feminist, a woman and a parent, I want to be able to tell people to stand up for themselves, to speak to truth for their own sakes and for the sake of others. However, when people report abuse are subject to reprisal and complaints are not taken seriously, how can that be done? What should parents say to children, especially daughters who express an interest in serving in the Defence Forces? Without evidence of significant cultural and structural reforms, it seems the only reasonable and prudent conclusion is that the Defence Forces are not a safe place for young people looking to serve their country and build their career. Toxic and abusive work cultures reproduce themselves if leadership fails to intervene. That is the reality here. This happens because when perpetrators are protected victims are silenced or leave. The people who stand by and let it happen become more and more accustomed to, and complicit in, the coarseness and cruelty of the workplace dynamic as time passes. If the leadership of the Defence Forces cannot create a humane and disciplined internal culture, how are they supposed to perform the important tasks their roles require? Members of the Defence Forces are so dedicated, they give so much of themselves to these institutions and they are being badly let down. I commend the Minister and I am glad the Government has recognised the gravity of the findings of this report and the commitment to adopt all recommendations made it is really positive. I hope that any fact-finding and redress process that emerge from this are inclusive, trauma-informed and shaped by the needs of the victims. I also hope lessons are learnt from the needlessly upsetting and divisive blunders made in redress processes for individuals incarcerated in mother and baby homes.
I have been disturbed by some of the other responses to the report. While RACO welcomed the report publicly, internal communications to its members, which were reported in The Irish Times were far more critical. The association accused the report of tarring all of its members with the same brush. I really believe this is untrue. In fact, at several key points the report emphasises that most members of the Defence Forces are committed professionals. That is what the report is saying. RACO's internal response seems to highlight an issue raised by Deputy Berry in the Dáil, which is a hypersensitivity among the officer class to criticism that undermines efforts at reform. Such resistance needs to be overcome. The report signals the need for radical cultural and structural reforms. No one, regardless of rank, can be allowed to undermine or impede efforts to safeguard the dignity and equality that every worker is entitled to. The findings of this report are specific to the Defence Forces but there are lessons that have implications for other male-dominated, hyper-masculine fields such as construction, the trades and policing. Women and LGBT workers should be welcome wherever they decide to work. Unfortunately, they often have to contend with bullying and harassment if they pursue traditionally masculine careers. This is absolutely unacceptable. I have heard from young women pursuing apprenticeships, for example. They love the work they are doing but, unfortunately, they are subject to sexual commentary and other unpleasant gendered remarks from some co-workers. Sometimes these women are the only women on the job site and they feel unable to speak out for fear of being branded as a "buzz kill" and "difficult" to work with. I want to say to all present and former members of the Defence Forces who have been victimised and retaliated against, and whose careers were impacted by this culture of brutality, abuse of authority and secrecy that what happened to them was wrong. They sought to serve their country and they were mistreated and let down. The abuse and inaction have gone on for far too long, and this moment of reckoning is long overdue. The work of investigation, reform and redress will be very significant.
There will be resistance from some corners but that must be overcome, and I know that the Tánaiste is very aware of that. Nothing less than a root-and-branch reform will achieve the structural and cultural changes necessary to create lasting change.
I thank the Tánaiste for coming here and warmly welcome him. I am really happy that he is taking this all on board.
I welcome the Tánaiste to the Chamber. I commend all those who took part by giving testimony and evidence as part of this report, and acknowledge the work of all those involved in the formulation of the report. The most important work now begins with the implementation of the statutory review that is to take place. I acknowledge the work and decisions taken by the Government in terms of the statutory inquiry, the setting up of the external oversight body and the reform of the existing mechanisms for making a complaint. Finally, I acknowledge the introduction of legislation, which is planned. That includes the establishment of an oversight body and the amending of the Defence Act 1954 so that allegations of rape or aggravated sexual assault in the Defence Forces would be referred to An Garda Síochána. These are all important steps being taken by the Government.
On the timing of the complaints, it is worth noting that 44% referred to complaints that were made ten years ago; 16% in the last five to ten years; 15% in the last two to five years; 12% in a period of between six months and 24 months; 5% in the last six months; and 8% relate to ongoing experiences so this is an issue that is with us now. This matter is not entirely historical but is ongoing in some cases of sexual harassment and abuse. It is also worth noting that 83% of respondents reported experiencing bullying by a person of a higher rank.
I enjoyed, to a degree, the RTÉ programme "Ultimate Hell Week - The Professionals", which was broadcast last autumn. I do not know whether the Tánaiste saw any of the programme, and I am not sure whether it is a true reflection of training at certain levels within the Defence Forces, but I know I would not cut the mustard from a physical point of view. The authoritarian or hierarchical nature of the training was quite evident and graphic in the programme. I know there is a need to promote the importance of rank and obeying orders, and superiors, but that is no excuse whatsoever for the alleged occurrence of victimisation and sexual harassment, as outlined, in the IRG report.
Eighty-six per cent of the alleged perpetrators were reported as being male. That is probably not a surprise in what, I think, would be a male-dominated profession. Seventy-nine per cent of the alleged reported incidents had bystanders present. Again, that would be reflective of people either being complicit or feeling they would be impacted themselves were they to intervene, according to my reading of the matter, and this is a concern as well.
Again, I acknowledge all of the people who took part in the review and gave testimony. I also acknowledge the decisions of the Government. It is important that the Women of Honour, and the Men and Women of Honour, have confidence in the terms of reference that will be agreed and put to the Cabinet, and will lead to a motion being brought before both Houses. It is important that people have confidence in the terms of reference because the last thing that the Government needs, and indeed any government needs, is for a process to be put in place only for a number of people to say suddenly that it does not go far enough and that they want an input in the terms of reference to change them and have a greater say or whatever. Therefore, it is important to get the process right from the start. I imagine that the Government wants to do this in order to limit the chance of people being unhappy with the process.
Senator Craughwell, as a former member of the Defence Forces, has expressed concerns. There are, to use the phrase, "bad uns" in every profession, including our own. As we know, every profession has people who have done wrong and will do wrong in the future. Certainly the reputation of whole groups cannot or should not be tarnished but we must recognise the strong testimonies made by people, as reported, who have expressed their evidence and given their views of what happened to them. We must start to believe, investigate and root out anybody who is involved in illegal activities or issues that should be investigated by An Garda Síochána.
Cuirim fáilte roimh an Tánaiste go dtí an Teach. I, too, am a veteran of the Defence Forces. I served overseas and came under sustained periods of fire when I was overseas but that was nothing compared with the anger, fire and reprisal from people who engaged in that well-known practice of shooting the messenger. Essentially, as has been pointed out in the IRG report, anybody who raises concerns about sexual harassment and sexual assault in the Defence Forces has become the target of reprisal. There is a kind of rhetorical device used to say that if you raise these questions you have failed what the IRG calls the "loyalty test" and you are somehow being disloyal for raising these issues.
The report consists of almost 1,000 pages. It is a thorough vindication of the Women and Honour, and the Men and Women of Honour, and also Katie Hannon, and the national broadcaster, RTÉ, for bringing this out in September 2021. According to the report, "at best, the Defence Forces barely tolerates women and, at its worst, verbally, physically, sexually and psychologically abuses women in its ranks." Crucially, the report states that: "Eighty-eight percent of female respondents [...] reported that they have experienced one or more forms of sexual harassment, compared with 17% of male respondents." This finding shows that gender-based discrimination and violence are endemic within the Defence Forces. The report also made the following observation, on page 42: "To be ‘female’ is to be considered an object rather than a full human being." So this is not a legacy or historical issue but a live and ongoing situation where systematic and systemic violence against women is perpetrated across all three services of the Defence Forces. I am sorry to say that I am still receiving disclosures and representations from young men and women who have been treated in the most appalling ways, including over the Easter weekend when we celebrated the 1916 Rising outside the General Post Office, which is unconscionable.
In terms of the proofs and whether we can place any faith in the findings of the IRG, this research has been ongoing for 23 years. In 1988, which is 25 years ago, I spoke to the then Chief of Staff, Lieutenant General Gerry McMahon, and pointed out the nature and systemic nature of discrimination and violence in the Defence Forces. So, we have known about this matter for quite a considerable amount of time. My findings, in 2000, set out in considerable detail the type of sexual assault and sexual harassment that the IRG's report corroborates and reinforces. It was also reported in 2002, in a report that I called for by the study review group, which investigated my research. The group was led by Dr. Eileen Doyle, and the report was published by the then Minister for Defence, Michael Smith, in 2002. It was also corroborated by Dr. Shirley Graham, who is now with the George Washington University, when she did her doctoral research on women, particularly in peacekeeping and peace enforcement operations. In fact, Dr. Graham was exposed to a serious sexual assault while carrying out her research among Irish troops in Kosovo, and she made that disclosure in Katie Hannon's "Women of Honour" documentary. Nobody can refute the findings of the IRG because they have what one former leader of PDFORRA described to me as "the ring of truth". More recently, the Mohan report into unlawful activities and sexual assaults in McKee Barracks, and the recent Meenan report into the cadet school, corroborate and reinforce these findings.
To be clear, like the "not all men" narrative, the "bad apple" narrative is an invalidating, rhetorical device that derails the lived experience of survivors, and elides and distracts from the culture of inaction and reprisal that has dominated the Defence Forces' culture.
If even a fraction of the energy invested in reprisal had been invested in dealing with the perpetrators, we would have saved hundreds of young women and men from life-altering and life-limiting experiences of sexual violence within Óglaigh na hÉireann. It is this wilful inaction and persistent recidivist reprisal against those of us who have called out the toxic culture, perpetrated by the so-called good apples, that has led to a situation where matters of sexual violence have deteriorated over the past 25 years, despite the clear warnings that were given. There is no excuse. The rotten apples narrative is an excuse and a pathetic one at that.
Hear, hear.
In preparing these notes, I am not referring in any way to the sentiments expressed by Senators Ward or Kyne. I agree with absolutely every word that my good friends and colleagues, Senators Ward and Kyne, expressed here today. I really welcome the full statutory inquiry and I also welcome the fact that An Garda Síochána will now investigate allegations of sexual assault, including those that were made over the weekend among troops forming up for service overseas, which, frankly, is bizarre and unusual, given the timeline.
The report concludes that, as an organisation, Óglaigh na hÉireann is not a safe place for 51% of the population. As such, it cannot purport to protect, defend or serve the contemporary Irish Republic or, in time, all of the people on this island. It is a crisis and we need to save the Defence Forces because despite everything, they are and they remain dear to the heart of the Irish people. We are at a crossroads and this is a watershed moment.
Given my own involvement in all of this over the years, I just want to comment on what the IRG says in conclusion, which is that the Defence Forces are unable or unwilling to make the changes that are needed to provide a safe working environment. Do I agree with that conclusion? All that is described in this report happened on the watch of previous general staff. Do I have confidence in the Chief of Staff and his leadership team to be the change, to lead the transformation that is required? I want to put it on the record of the House that I do, if they are willing and if they embrace the challenge and embrace the famous words, is féidir linn. Now is the time to engage and co-operate with the cultural transformation that is required to make the Defence Forces fit for purpose in the 21st century and to provide them with all of the investment they deserve and need. What must happen now is that the reprisals must stop. The Minister for Defence and the Secretary General of the Department of Defence, Ms Jacqui McCrum, have clearly signalled their intention to do so. The current Minister and his predecessor, Deputy Coveney, are exceptional. There has been an absolute sea change in their approach to the Defence Forces and I welcome that. I believe the Secretary General is the same. I wish the current Chief of Staff, Mr. Seán Clancy, the very best of luck in leading this change and bringing Óglaigh na hÉireann back to where it belongs, at the very heart of this nation.
I thank the Minister for coming to the House today. I acknowledge the report that has been prepared about the impact on men and women in the Defence Forces. There is a need for urgent reform and I want to express how much I support that. We want to be able to stand over the Defence Forces. I am thinking here about recruitment. When young men or women decide that they want to be part of the Defence Forces, to represent Ireland both here and abroad, we want them to do so out of a sense of pride in that role. That is what is at stake here. It is up to us now, as other have said, to be supportive. This independent report has highlighted, thanks to confidential submissions, the nature of the culture that exists at the moment but that does not mean that the culture cannot be changed. It does not mean that the culture has to continue. It is in the Minister's gift to bring effective change here and I want to express my support for that.
I thank all Senators for their contributions. Táimid fíorbhuíoch díobh. Níl aon amhras ach gur tuarascáil den scoth atá againn anseo agus go mbeidh dea-thionchar aige ar Óglaigh na hÉireann sna blianta atá romhainn. Táim an-bhuíoch den bhreitheamh as ucht cé chomh cuimsitheach is atá an tuarascáil. Tá ceachtanna le foghlaim againn go léir as seo amach.
I will address a number of the key issues raised. I will not go through the contributions of every Senator but will try to bring them all together. Senator McGreehan, in particular, and all Senators who spoke saluted the courage of those who came forward. The point was made that for individual women to tell of their experience is a very traumatic thing to do and we should always be mindful of that. I am very conscious of that and all Senators articulated it. I salute the Women of Honour or rather, the women and men of honour, as well as the current women's defence network within the Department of Defence, which the Secretary General established. The latter is a very good forum as well.
I listened to Senator Craughwell with interest and, in fairness, we need to hear all perspectives on this. People need to have the ability to stand up and say freely what they think. I say this genuinely and with respect, but denial is not an option here. I understand that many people feel hurt. That is true-----
I did not deny the need for a statutory inquiry-----
No, I am speaking generally. I am not saying that Senator Craughwell is saying that-----
The statutory inquiry will tell us all.
The reason I say this is I did what the Senator suggested and read the report myself. I do not have to depend on advice from officials on how to assess a report like this. I have been through quite a number of inquiries, from my earliest days in the Department of Education when I set up the first ever inquiry into religious institutions and industrial schools. There is considerable trauma involved in people coming forward. People do not come forward lightly.
We could look at this numerically, consider how many actually came forward and could say that as a representative sample of the entirety of those employed, it seems small. However, if we also looks at Raiseaconcern, which the former Minister, Deputy Coveney, established at the same time as establishing the independent review group and at the Defence Forces own survey around bullying complaints and sexual assault, we see that they all align. If we were to just look exclusively at the report, we might come to certain conclusions. In fairness, Senator Craughwell is correct that the report is not a fact-finding report. Equally, its authors say that the vast majority of serving members are upright, honourable people who want to serve their country and it is in the interests of those people that we have to get this right. A statutory inquiry creates the framework or the basis for going further than the conclusions of the IRG and for interrogating these issues comprehensively, without fear or favour.
I met representatives of Raiseaconcern myself, having read the report and they are very clear that there is a systemic issue here, that it is an issue right now and is not just historic. I met all members of the independent review group. Some members of the secretariat who had no experience of any of this said they had never come across anything like this in their lives, in terms of the experiences that were related to them and that came before them.
There is a temptation to say that this is about resources, and some of the representative groups might say, "If only we had resources". This is not about resources; this is about culture. On another day, we can debate resources. Pay and conditions have improved, particularly for those who have just done their leaving certificate. The starting pay is above most entry levels now. This is about culture and how people feel and work within the Defence Forces. We cannot keep saying that if we just do something with the barracks or with whatever, this will all disappear because it will not. If I am honest, although I might be wrong here, my own sense is that the culture as revealed in this report is very much part and parcel of the recruitment and retention issue. The retention issue in particular is related to this.
There are issues with training, as mentioned by several Senators. I raised this with my "military advisors" as the Act describes them, that is, with senior members of management and also with serving members. We have all heard that training is about how fast one can run and how much one can carry as one runs. It is almost like a survival course.
I am conscious of the comments made by Senator Kyne, and there is a balance to be struck. I have read Karina Molloy's book. The whole of training is about survival. You must not complain; you must make it. I come from a different educational culture, which is one of affirmation. If a person is almost 70% of the way there, how do we get that person to 90%? If the person is at 50%, how do we get the person to 60% or 70%? I recently spoke to some recruits. I need to be careful because I have toured all the barracks. Once they get through training, they are happy with it. That is part of that kind of culture. If somebody does not come through it, maybe that says he or she is really not fit. I will be straight up, because I said it to the military chiefs and I will say it to those in this House. If we have someone who is a genius in cybersecurity, but who is unfit, we should find a way to make that person a member of the Defence Forces. He or she may be far more damned useful in that role, given the threats we currently face, than basing his or her suitability on the ability to run 150 laps of Croke Park. I am being a bit facetious, but sometimes it is about what threats and challenges we face.
It is a fair point.
Hear, hear.
In all walks of life the multidisciplinary approach is now key. Why are lots of people being recruited out of our Defence Forces? I agree with Senator Craughwell in one respect. There is a lot of education in the Defence Forces. There is a huge commitment to learning. I was in Collins Barracks recently. There is fantastic expertise in the area of ordinance and drone technology and so on. People are looking for that when it comes to recruitment. We need to attract different forms of expertise and brain power, so there is a versatile array of human resources available. I have made this point the context of the Naval Service. It did some direct entry competitions, but the physical stuff and all the rest of it still had to be completed. If we need someone to make sure the ships operate in terms of engines, radar capability, and other technical areas, we should bring in civilians if we have to. There is balance, and I am prepared to listen in return. People in the Defence Forces also have experience. I am prepared to hear all of that. We are facing different challenges, and that has to be reflected in our changes.
It think there is a welcome now for the criminal justice system, as has been identified. There seems to be a broad acceptance that sexual assault allegations must go to An Garda Síochána. We will take guidance in respect of the overseas issue. I am committed to getting the working time directive done. I have set timelines for my officials to conclude the conciliation talks and schemes under way with the representative bodies. I want that brought to a conclusion. It is important in cultural terms too, to make the workplace more attractive. There is a also a lot of investment going into barracks. I take Senator Wall's point. I stopped the demolition of the houses he referred to, and I want them refurbished. There is a housing crisis after all. There is a chance to create accommodation opportunities over time for young members coming into the Defence Forces. They can save, and that all helps contribute to their disposable resources and income. For example, what has happened with the gym facilities in County Kilkenny is incredible. It is a fantastic facility. Likewise, other camps have good facilities, but we want that to be the case uniformly. There should be proper canteens and so on where people can dine properly. We need to improve conditions within the barracks. For example, in Haulbowline, there has been tremendous investment in accommodation, and in the restoration of historic buildings on the base itself. We need to continue that investment, but also investment in capability.
On the oversight body, what has been said about the Secretary General of the Department is unfair. I know it is not personal and it relates to the position. When it comes to understanding how government operates in an administrative capacity, it seems to me that the oversight body requires that link to make sure there is accountability. Otherwise I am unsure of the role of an oversight body, which does not have a link into the Department. The IRG recommended that the Secretary General be on the oversight body. They will obviously not be part of the inquiry, which will be led by an independent judge. The Department will be included in the inquiry’s terms of reference. There are numerous reports going back, which say these issues were being dealt with. That is why the Secretary General opted for an independent review. Maybe the statutory inquiry can look into this, but there is a sense that the monitoring group was doing reviews but nothing was happening on the ground. Maybe people were being told stuff. Serving members have made a telling comment to me. There is no point having strategic review after strategic review, or policy document and frameworks if people on the ground in the Defence Forces do not see it happening in front of them, or if they do not experience it. That is the litmus test of all this. People serving on the ground must see this change. They must witness the transformation in culture. The strategic frameworks and policy documents are the easy bits. We will all sign off on them, but people on the ground must see it happening.
I think I have dealt with most of the issues raised. I stress again that this is not just about the report. I have mentioned the Defence Forces' own survey. I have mentioned meeting people who are serving. I have met people who have retired, who acknowledge that they did not speak up and ask themselves why. They felt the culture that was there. The Mohan report and Meenan report are symptomatic of that delay in not getting on top of something early on and reporting back. The timeline alone on the Mohan report is too long. I will leave it at that, and finish by saying that like Senator Craughwell I visited the cadet school recently. It is refreshing that so many young people have dedicated their lives to the protection of the State and to serve it in the Defence Forces. We owe it to them. I told them in my speech that their challenge is to become the leaders of this change,and to be the generation that does things differently. Our job is to equip them and enable them to do the job differently.
Cuireadh an Seanad ar athló ar 6.28 p.m. go dtí 10.30 a.m., Dé Céadaoin, an 26 Aibreán 2023.
The Seanad adjourned at 6.28 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 26 April 2023.