Seanad Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 25 Apr 2023

Nithe i dtosach suíonna - Commencement Matters

Grant Payments

Senator John Cummins

I thank the Minister of State for taking my Commencement matter, which is on a topic of utmost importance. Community groups across the length and breadth of this country have worked collaboratively with An Garda Síochána to establish community text alert schemes, which I know he is very supportive of.

Data published last week indicate that there has been a 45% reduction in burglaries nationally and, thankfully, my own county of Waterford is in line with the national reduction figure. Great praise must go to An Garda Síochána via Operation Thor as the force has put a concerted effort into targeting criminals who prey on the most vulnerable in our society. However, the community text alert schemes have also proved to be a really important weapon in reducing burglaries, particularly in rural Ireland.

The texts that are often issued by local community text alert schemes ask people to be vigilant and watch out for certain types of vehicles in certain areas or circulate invaluable information about a recent crime that has occurred and ask for the help of the public to assist inquiries. The Garda with whom I interact have said that the schemes are very important in tackling crime and assisting them in solving crimes that occur, particularly in rural Ireland. Regretfully, not enough is being done to support these excellent community groups, who provide an invaluable service to their communities. There is a text rebate scheme whereby up to €350 is provided retrospectively the following year but I do not that amount is nearly enough to support the vital costs incurred when running what I think we will all agree is a vital service, and that situation needs to change, as a matter of urgency.

Recently the Minister for Justice, Deputy Harris, visited Waterford city and launched the Waterford Local Community Safety Partnership Safety Plan 2023-2028 in city hall. On that occasion, I arranged for him to meet two gentlemen who operate the Dunhill and Ballyduff Lower community text alert scheme. The two gentlemen provided a breakdown of the annual costs involved in running the scheme. It costs between €1,100 and €1,500 per year to provide a community text alert scheme. Community groups do not have control over the number of texts that must be issued. The Garda send texts to community groups, which forward the texts to community alert schemes. The cost each year depends on the number of texts that the Garda ask community groups to issue.

Local authorities support community text alert schemes. The local authorities in my own county provide a community grant of upwards of €400 towards all these schemes but such provision does not happen throughout the country. The €350 rebate is made too late the following year for it to be of any use. There are approximately 1,250 community text alert schemes and I fear that we will lose many of them, which would be unacceptable. I have two asks. First, I ask that community text alert groups receive upfront baseline funding of between €750 and €1,000 either via An Garda Síochána or the Department of Justice. Such provision would cost between €1 million and €1.5 million a year but it would be extraordinarily good value for money.

Second, if it is necessary to continue with the retrospective rebate scheme, it could continue to operate to support the costs incurred, and fill the gap between the support that is provided by local authorities and the Department and the cost to the community. I ask the Minister of State to consider my suggestions.

Minister of State at the Department of Justice (Deputy James Browne)

I thank the Senator for raising the community supports rebate and for tabling this very important Commencement matter.

As he will be aware, the Department of Justice provides funding to Muintir na Tíre to cover the costs incurred by communities in administering the text alert scheme. The scheme is administered on a refund basis whereby communities submit their annual costs to Muintir na Tíre and I am told that a maximum refund of up to €450 is provided to the community.

This funding is provided for in the Department of Justice’s crime prevention budget. My Department has made the following payments to Muintir na Tíre: in 2021,€124,060.35 was paid; in 2020, €196,362.80 was paid; and in 2019, €123,911.81 was paid. Muintir na Tíre is compiling the 2022 text alert rebate and the Department will work with it on this. My Department is also engaging with Muintir na Tíre on its review of the text alert scheme with a view to how it is being delivered and to delivering more cost-effective options, such as the use of apps, for future versions of the scheme. I have heard what the Senator has said in his two proposals and I will bring those back to the Department to perhaps form part of that review and to see what considerations can be given, as I understand the Senator's concerns.

As the Senator will be aware, a key pillar of the programme for Government is building stronger and safer communities. The ongoing work of my Department in this area is highlighted in the Rural Safety Plan 2022-2024, which I published at the National Ploughing Championships last September. Under the plan, there is a commitment to the piloting and roll-out of the An Garda Síochána's, See Something, Say Something initiative. This was developed in Kerry Garda division to combat public order and anti-social behaviour using a text alert system. See Something, Say Something allows members of the public to anonymously text the Garda if they see something concerning or suspicious in their local area. That is not in any way to take away from the local community groups, which are doing a fantastic job. I have been advised by the Garda authorities that following positive feedback about this initiative from Kerry, they are working to assess and provide a suitable platform for its further roll-out. No timeline is available yet but my Department is closely engaging with Garda management on this issue as a key part of protecting all of our communities.

I know this is a matter close to the Senator's heart and that he has raised this internally, as well as with the Department, Ministers and Ministers of State. I assure him we will keep this matter under constant review and continue to work with Muintir na Tíre on how the rebate is working.

Senator John Cummins

I thank the Minister of State for his reply but unfortunately, the issue with the rebate scheme, as I see it, is that it operates the following year. There is no baseline support in place for these community text alert groups that provide an invaluable service for their communities. It is April and there has been no rebate scheme for 2022. If we take 2023, for example, texts have been going out for the last four months. There is no baseline support for those community groups for 2023 and it will be April of next year and beyond before they get support for those texts that are going out at this moment in time. Funding of €1 million to €1.5 million to provide baseline support of €750 to €1,000 for each of these groups would be a very small sum of money in the context of the Department of Justice's budget. The value for money that could be provided by such a small sum of money is something I ask the Minister of State to expedite without delay. It does not need Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform sanction or any other sanction; it is something that is within the gift of the Department of Justice and I ask that it is expedited without delay. We all agree on the importance of these groups.

Deputy James Browne

I acknowledge the importance of these groups to our communities and I acknowledge the hard work done by the Senator on this matter. I also acknowledge the financial pressures there can be on local community groups, particularly in respect of the length of time between incurring the cost and the rebate issuing. The system has been in place for some time. As I said, a review has been carried out by Muintir na Tíre and the Department will work with Muintir na Tíre. I heard the Senator’s concerns and I will relay them to the Minister, Deputy Harris, and the Department, and have the matter examined.

The Government remains committed to ensuring An Garda Síochána has the resources it needs to fulfil its mission of keeping people safe and this is reflected in the unprecedented allocation of over €2 billion to the Garda in budget 2023, which will support the recruitment of 1,000 gardaí and of a further 400 civilian staff to release gardaí back onto their front-line duties. The Senator may wish to know that the overall reported rate of burglaries in Waterford Garda division is 42.93% lower in 2022 than the pre-pandemic levels in 2019, which shows the fantastic work that has been done by An Garda Síochána in the Waterford area and in operating Operation Thor to tackle those who are committing these crimes.

I thank the Senator again; I will bring his concerns back to the Department and discuss them with my colleague, the Minister for Justice.

Acting Chairperson (Senator Martin Conway)

As the Minister responding to Senator Murphy's Commencement matter is not here yet, with the permission of the House, I will move on to the third Commencement matter in the name of Senator Martin.

Hospital Services

Senator Vincent P. Martin

The Minister of State is very welcome to Seanad Éireann. While it is good to see him in the Chamber, many people in Kildare will be disappointed that the Minister for Health is not available to answer this question today.

It has been reported that about 200 women from County Kildare are unnecessarily compelled to travel to the Coombe hospital every month for antenatal maternity care because the maternity service, which had been in Naas for many years, was removed at the time of the onset of Covid and has still not returned. With justified Covid concerns at the time, members of the local community, however reluctantly, understood the decision but they assumed it was temporary and not a permanent decision. The shadow and effects of Covid are far-reaching and society is still adjusting but the pandemic clearly did not cause a reduction in the size of buildings that existed before its onset.

For many years, a small consultant-led team travelled from the Coombe hospital to Naas General Hospital once a week but now County Kildare mothers must travel to the Coombe for this consultant-led service. The decision does not put women first. A tried and tested successful service which worked very efficiently from many years has been removed and, as a result, more pressure has been placed on the services in the Coombe hospital. We can see the traffic congestion and queues in the vicinity of the Coombe, including from time to time queuing cars blocking the main road into the hospital. From a green perspective, it is not sustainable. It increases carbon emissions but, crucially from a quality-of-life perspective, it does not put mothers first.

People deserve a proper explanation. We are entitled to know what consultation process, if any, took place before this decision was reached. I urge the Minister of State to ascertain if even one user of the service was consulted before the decision was taken to remove this service from Naas General Hospital. The Kildare Green Party has gathered numerous written testimonials from mothers adversely affected by the removal of this service who have first-hand experience of availing of the service at Naas hospital and then for later pregnancy having to travel to the Coombe hospital. The testimonials show that this can add to the stress of a pregnancy and what should be a routine local visit can now take a round trip of up to six hours, incurring longer, more expensive childcare costs, negotiating trains or buses and for many what should be an avoidable use of motor cars in rush-hour traffic.

If it is an accommodation space issue, the Kildare Green Party has located appropriate rooms for the service close to the hospital if required. It is reported that County Kildare accounts for 20% of all births in the Coombe hospital. Considering that this can entail several visits per mother, we are talking about thousands of antenatal visits. This is unnecessary and, in my opinion, it is avoidable. I am looking forward to an update from the Government in respect of this matter which is causing serious concern for many in County Kildare.

Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Deputy Neale Richmond)

I am extremely grateful to Senator Martin for raising this issue and giving me this opportunity to speak on it in the Seanad on behalf of the Minister for Health, Deputy Stephen Donnelly. The Senator will know from my long time in the Seanad and previously as a backbencher that this is an issue very close to my heart. It is one I have spoken on at great length more generally when it comes to antenatal care, but also given the geographic implications for my own part of the world, as well as dealing with many relations and, indeed, Kildare Green Party members in the Senator’s own part of the world.

I stress that, as evidenced in the programme for Government and the significant investment in maternity services in both 2021 and 2022, the Government is fully committed to the implementation of the national maternity strategy. Despite the very significant disruption experienced right across the healthcare system over the last number of years, maternity services have continued to develop in line with the national maternity strategy's revised implementation plan. As the Senator may know, the strategy outlines a new model of care for maternity services with three care pathways - supported, assisted and specialised - ensuring that women receive the right care, from the right professional, at the right time and, crucially, in the right place. In line with that model of care, pregnant women deemed to be at normal risk will be offered and encouraged to avail of care in the supported care pathway.

Key to realising this goal is the development and expansion of community midwifery services. The strategy is very clear that improved access to midwifery services is central to increasing women's choice of experience, a strategic principle of the strategy. In line with that, the HSE is working closely with hospitals and hospital groups to ensure that access to care, including maternity care, is improved for all. In April 2020, the Coombe Women and Infants University Hospital transferred its antenatal clinics from Naas General Hospital to the Coombe. This was in the context of risk mitigation measures undertaken by Naas General Hospital in response to its spatial challenges arising from the Covid-19 pandemic. As we are all aware, Covid pushed our healthcare system, including our physical facilities, to the limit. As such, rearrangements had to be made in certain hospitals and services, often with very little notice to implement these. After the initial move, temporary accommodation was found for a midwifery-led clinic in Newbridge, and more recently in Celbridge. These clinics are fully supported by a consultant clinic at the Coombe.

I appreciate that these changes may cause inconvenience to patients who must travel a longer distance to access their antenatal clinic and experience the rush-hour traffic which the Senator detailed. Equitable access to services is a priority for the Government. The Coombe hospital has informed the Department of Health that it is actively working with the Dublin Midlands Hospital Group to find a long-term solution to the relocation of this service within the midlands area. If considering options for accommodation of this clinic in new facilities in or near Naas General Hospital, the normal HSE procurement process and protocols would have to be followed. However, I encourage the Senator when, as he stated, he has recommendations or testimonials, to please bring them forward to the Minister, the HSE and the hospital group more generally. I assure him that the Government is committed to making real and sustainable improvements in our health and maternity services in Kildare and much further beyond.

Senator Vincent P. Martin

We also commend and are grateful to the hard-working staff in the Coombe but there is an avoidable, unnecessary situation. With respect, there is no comfort in the Minister of State's reply so the campaign will go on. I urge the Minister of State to use his ministerial influence to give us this assurance. He gets it. He is a dad of young children. He knows this is unnecessary. He knows that the Celbridge and Newbridge services, while good, are midwife-led, although they are supported by consultants in the Coombe. That is an entirely different thing from the consultant-led service which existed for years, efficiently and well-utilised, in Naas General Hospital until it was removed. There is no evidence of any consultation, so until I hear otherwise, it is totally unsatisfactory. I and the people of Kildare will ratchet up our campaign in the coming weeks to ensure we get back that service. It is a sustainable, safe and proper service that, in an unjustified way, was taken from the people of Kildare.

Deputy Neale Richmond

I am disappointed that the Senator finds little comfort in this reply because what we have here is a very clear determination from the Department and the hospital group to work to find those new facilities that the Senator rightly says are desperately needed for the people of Kildare and the wider midlands region. I disagree. Fundamentally, the clinic is staffed by brilliant people in Celbridge and Newbridge who are doing excellent work, although, of course, more can and will be done.

It is important to put on the record the context when this decision was made in April 2020. The Senator will remember, as we were fresh Members to our respective Houses of the Oireachtas, the chaos surrounding the country, particularly our health service, at the time. Tough decisions were made.

I fundamentally agree with the overall campaign of which the Senator speaks. I agree with his efforts and I will, most importantly, bring his concerns to the Minister for Health, Deputy Donnelly, and the relevant figures in the Department and the HSE. I agree that we need that accommodation in Kildare as soon as possible.

Acting Chairperson (Senator Martin Conway)

I thank the Minister of State and Senator Martin for their contributions on an excellent Commencement matter debate. I commend the Minister of State on the campaigning he has done in this House and in Dáil Éireann on this issue.

I must apologise to Senator Eugene Murphy again because the Minister still has not arrived. I must bring the fourth matter forward now, which is in the name of Senator Fitzpatrick.

Senator Eugene Murphy

On a point of order, I thought the Minister of State, Deputy Richmond, was answering my question, although I could be wrong. Maybe I am wrong.

Acting Chairperson (Senator Martin Conway)

No, I do not believe he is.

Senator Eugene Murphy

Who was supposed to answer it?

Acting Chairperson (Senator Martin Conway)

It is not the Minister of State, Deputy Richmond. As of yet, we have not been informed as to who is taking the matter, which is completely unacceptable. In order to avoid delaying the Minister of State, Deputy Richmond, who is a very busy man, I presume Senator Murphy will not mind me calling Senator Fitzpatrick now.

Senator Eugene Murphy

That is fine.

National Monuments

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

I thank Senator Murphy for that. I also thank the Minister of State for attending this morning. This matter speaks to a very important development in my constituency of Dublin Central, in the heart of our capital city and the birthplace of our Republic. Moore Street is one of the country's oldest trading streets. It is one of the oldest commercial streets where people and families have traded for decades. It is also an historic site, not just from a commercial and trading perspective, but also from a political and social perspective. It lies adjacent to O'Connell Street and the GPO, the birthplace of our Republic and one of the sites of the 1916 Rising, which we recently commemorated. It was from the GPO that the leaders of the 1916 Rising evacuated Nos. 14 to 17 Moore Street. The buildings have been protected and were designated a national monument back in 2007.

As a city councillor, I worked for many years with the street traders, relatives of the 1916 Rising participants, property owners, the local authority, the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and other stakeholders to try to realise, on that site, a 1916 commemorative museum. We have had many false dawns and this is the fourth time in this term that I have raised this issue in the Seanad. I raise it again today because there is deep disappointment and frustration with the lack of progress. Some time last year, the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage assured this House that a design team had been appointed and that works would commence "within weeks". I appreciate that the Minister of State, Deputy Richmond, is standing in for the Minister but we are now not weeks on but months on. In fact, we are into a whole new year. It is devastating to see the neglect of Moore Street and the national monument thereon but what is more frustrating and disappointing is the lack of energy or ambition to actually realise the potential to bring the street back to life again, to reanimate it as a trading street and also to bring to life the historic events of that street. Those historic events led to the birth of our Republic. There is such enormous potential for a 1916 commemorative museum on the national monument site at Nos. 14 to 17 Moore Street. It would link directly to the GPO museum. There is a direct historic path - the evacuation route - from the GPO, through Henry Place, down Moore Lane and into Nos. 14 to 17 Moore Street.

It is my hope that the Minister of State will advise the House on a commencement date for works to deliver a 1916 commemorative museum on Moore Street.

Deputy Neale Richmond

I am grateful to the Senator for raising this issue and for putting up with me responding to it. I do so enthusiastically, not just on behalf of my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donovan, but as someone who, like the Senator, is a true-blue Dub and is proud of our nation's history and who, like the Acting Chairman, is an historian by background and has spoken on this matter as a Senator.

When this issue was previously raised in the Chamber last November, my colleague and then Minister of State, Deputy Feighan, stated that work was proceeding to advance the nomination of a professional design team for the crucial first conservation phase of work. He further stated that given the complexities of the various procurement and legal issues surrounding the appointment of the companies involved, this work had been considerably delayed and he was unable to say with certainty when it might be concluded. On that occasion, Senator Fitzpatrick expressed deep frustration at the delay. In this, she reflected the feelings of many stakeholders, both in the area and more broadly across our country, who wish to move this vital project forward.

Having consulted again this week with officials in the Office of Public Works, OPW, they have assured me that matters have progressed in recent weeks and they have made significant strides in ironing out many of the issues that have delayed the project to date. The news I have to report to the Senator and the House this afternoon is much more positive than was the case in November. There has been a significant amount of contact between the OPW and the various parties in recent weeks to address relevant contractual matters. I understand these are close to being concluded satisfactorily. I expect that once a conclusion has been reached, the appointment of the relevant professional parties can be made. I look forward to having news on this shortly from the Minister and will be delighted to see the team put in place finally to progress the project.

The team to be appointed includes the critical individual professional disciplines, namely, conservation architects, mechanical and electrical services engineers, structural and civil engineers, quantity surveyors, archaeological consultants and fire safety engineers. I understand we should have news on the appointments very shortly, subject to some final administrative details being addressed. It is not envisaged that this process will cause any further delay in light of the efforts going on in the background.

There have been good contacts and meaningful exchanges between the OPW and the various parties involved to sort out all the complex and necessary details to bring this matter to a successful conclusion. Colleagues have developed a positive and honest relationship with the proposed team through these contacts. The project team in response will move forward quickly and will, I understand, meet formally upon appointment to begin work immediately. Its first task will be to set out the formal project programme and establish both short-term and longer-term targets for the individual disciplines in order that they can immediately thereafter begin substantive work.

The immediate target for the project team will be to review the position with regard to the project that was previously under way and was stopped by order of the court. Given the time that has elapsed, it will be critical to evaluate the design that was previously being implemented, consider whether anything has materially altered in the intervening period and, if necessary, make any changes that are appropriate. There may, for example, be changes needed to take account of amendments to the building regulations in the past few years, or there may have been changes to the structure of the houses themselves that need to be examined. Any material changes will have to be discovered as soon as possible and their implications assessed and planned for.

Adherence to the national monuments ministerial consent process is a critical part of this analysis. We must ensure at all times that the parameters for the project that were set out in the court process are fully observed and any changes deemed necessary are fully explained and documented. Once this process has been done, which will take approximately six to eight weeks, the team will immediately move forward into the detailed design phase, which is necessary to move to tendering for the main capital works project, including the appointment of a main contractor to undertake the physical works to the site. That will lead to a commencement, the date of which, unfortunately, I cannot share with the Senator this afternoon. If I could do so, I would. When we know the date, it will be conveyed to her at the earliest opportunity.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire Stáit. I appreciate that this issue is not one of his portfolio responsibilities and I am grateful to him for giving of his time to address it. I acknowledge the importance he places on national monuments and the historic heritage of our capital city. I welcome that a multidisciplinary professional team, including architects and conservationists, is being appointed. It is encouraging to hear the work will commence and that it will be comprehensive, sensitive and ambitious.

However, it is hard at this point, so long into the process and after hearing so many promises, to have much confidence in there being any firm timeline for action. In fact, the Minister of State was not provided with such a timeline before coming here today.

That indicates to anybody listening or taking an interest that there is no confirmed timeline. I would appreciate if the Minister of State could go back to the OPW and express to it the deep disappointment of this House, all the stakeholders in the national monument, the wider community and anyone who has any interest in our heritage, and if he could ask it to bring forward a date for the commencement of works as soon as possible.

Deputy Neale Richmond

I assure the Senator that what I have laid out is a detailed process that has to be and will be followed by the Government and all the various stakeholders to realise this crucial project. While it does not include specific dates, it includes clear objectives that need to be met. If we were dealing with an ordinary construction project or restoration, we would have a clear timeline, but we should all agree – and it is a good thing - that this is an extraordinary process dealing with an extraordinary part of our city and our collective history.

I shared the Senator’s frustration. I would love to be in a position to bring my kids into this interpretive centre tomorrow or over the bank holiday weekend. We all would. However, the project, when completed, will produce something we can all reflect on, particularly the Senator, given what she has put in and dedicated to this during her time on the city council and in this House. The finished project will be something she will take personal pride in and I look forward to congratulating her when the commencement date is fixed and, more important, when things are opened and in use. We are moving on in terms of the development of this project. The professional appointments are welcome and will move it on to where it needs to be. I commit to bringing back the Senator’s frustration and, more important, her positive contribution to this debate to the Minister and his officials in the OPW.

Acting Chairperson (Senator Martin Conway)

We have a situation here. I was first elected to this House 12 years ago today, in which time I have never seen a situation like this in which not even a script has been provided to the Minister of State to respond to Senator Murphy's Commencement matter. I checked to see if it would be appropriate to give the Senator the four minutes to outline his case but am told it is not. All I can do for him is bring this to the immediate attention of the Cathaoirleach and ask him to give the Senator top priority in terms of selecting this Commencement matter tomorrow or the next day. I apologise to the Senator on behalf of the House. This is totally inappropriate and unacceptable.

Senator Eugene Murphy

I accept that.

Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionraí ar 1.08 p.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ar 1.30 p.m.

Sitting suspended at 1.08 p.m and resumed at 1.30 p.m.