Vol. 295 No. 3
I remind Members that the combined speeches of the proposer and seconder should not exceed 16 minutes and that those of all other Senators should not exceed six minutes.
I call Senator Garvey to move the motion. She is sharing time with Senator O'Reilly. Which way are they divvying up time?
We will do eight minutes and eight minutes or ten minutes and six minutes-----
Whichever the Senator wants.
-----depending on how long I talk for.
It is the Senator's decision. Is that agreed? Agreed.
I move:
“That Seanad Éireann:
recognises that:
- guidance counsellors play a crucial role in the personal/social, educational and vocational development of every student in our secondary school system;
- guidance counsellors are important in supporting students’ mental health, wellbeing and forging pathways out of poverty;
- students who are experiencing mental health issues are often reluctant to seek help from public health services and studies have found that guidance counsellors are often the only professionals they turn to;
- there is a considerable body of evidence to show that access to guidance counsellors has a positive effect on third-level retention rates;
further recognises that:
- in 2012, the ex-quota allocation of guidance counsellors was abolished; the ex-quota system ringfenced hours for guidance counselling based on the number of students in the school;
- a 2023 survey of guidance counsellors by the Institute of Guidance Counsellors found that only 52% of the hours allocated by the Department of Education were available to guidance counsellors;
- this survey also found that only 4% of guidance counsellors reported they had their correct allocation of hours;
- the ‘in-quota’ system has been shown to have a disproportionately negative effect on disadvantaged students, given their greater reliance on in-school guidance and support;
notes with concern that:
- the ‘My World Survey 2: The National Study of Youth Mental Health in Ireland (2019)’found that:
- 40% of adolescents reported experiencing levels of depression outside the normal range;
- 49% of adolescents reported experiencing levels of anxiety outside of the normal range;
- 6% reported that they had made a suicide attempt;
- from October 2020 to March 2021, almost half of 15-17 year olds (42%) and 18-24 year olds (46%) reported that their mental health had worsened since the beginning of Covid 19;
- the same report tells us that children aged 12-15 were the most likely to present at an emergency department for a mental health problem in all periods 2019-21; 73-85% of all admissions among children aged 5-15 were on mental health grounds;
- 60% who attended the Child and Adolescent Mental Health Service (CAMHS) in the past year had difficulty accessing the service, and 42% of them said the service they finally accessed did not help with their mental health issues according to the ‘A Piece of My Mind’ survey of 2,166 children aged 12 to 17 by the Ombudsman for Children´s office this year;
acknowledges:
- that the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child states that:
‘Article 28 – Education
States parties recognize the right of the child to education, and with a view to achieving this right progressively and on the basis of equal opportunity, they shall, in particular: ...
(c) Make higher education accessible to all on the basis of capacity by every appropriate means;
(d) Make educational and vocational information and guidance available and accessible to all children;
(e) Take measures to encourage regular attendance at schools and the reduction of drop-out rates.’;
- that schools have a responsibility to provide students with appropriate guidance under the Education Act 1998;
- Minister Norma Foley´s recent announcement of a pilot programme of counselling and mental health supports for primary schools;
- there are 885 guidance counselling posts allocated to our second-level schools for the 2022/23 school year at an expenditure of almost €60 million per annum;
and calls on the Government to:
- restore the ex-quota status of guidance counsellors in all secondary schools where hours are calculated based on the number of students in the school;
- reduce the ratio of full-time guidance counsellors in order to increase the number of guidance counsellors available to our students.”
I thank the Minister for giving of his time and coming to the House. It is well-known that youth mental health is at crisis point thanks in no small way to Covid-19, of course, as well as to everything else. We could put mobile telephones up there with Covid in the context of the detrimental effect they have on young people. With that in mind, working with the Institute of Guidance Counsellors, Jigsaw and other organisations, it was clear to me that the front-line workers, which is the term we like to use, in youth mental health are our guidance counsellors. To that end, I brought the motion before the House.
I want to make sure the Seanad recognises that guidance counsellors play a crucial role in the personal, social, educational and vocational development of every student in our secondary school system. In my day, there was a careers preparation person and that was about it. Students may have seen him or her once or twice around CAO time.
Much has changed, and the demands of the role have vastly changed as well. Guidance counsellors are important in supporting students' mental health and well-being and forging pathways out of poverty. Students who are experiencing mental health issues are often reluctant to seek help from public health services. Studies have found that guidance counsellors are often the only professionals they turn to. There are also often both financial challenges in seeking counsellors and long waiting lists.
There is a considerable body of evidence to show that access to guidance counsellors has a positive effect on third-level retention rates as well, which is also very important. The Government wants to keep people in education. There is also much evidence from a survey I will refer to later on how guidance counsellors play a huge part in getting children to attend and continue to come into school as opposed to having dropout rates. They also play a major role in keeping dropout rates lower.
In 2012, the ex-quota allocation of guidance counsellors was abolished. I remember that specifically because I had friends who were guidance counsellors at the time and who were raising the issue with me even though I was not involved in politics in any shape or form. I was obviously quite a vocal advocate for things back then as well. The ex-quota system ring-fenced hours for guidance counselling based on the number of students in a school. A 2023 survey of guidance counsellors by the Institute of Guidance Counsellors found that only 52% of the hours allocated by the Department of Education were available to guidance counsellors. In a nutshell, we have a ratio of pupils per guidance counsellor and it is now currently at the principals' discretion as to how they use those hours. Some have the full 22 hours. In the survey that was carried out by the Institute of Guidance Counsellors, 4% of guidance counsellors have the full 22 hours allocated to them to do their jobs. That is a very worrying figure when we look at the fact that we have huge mental health crises. Often, the last person an adolescent wants to talk to is his or her parent and the first person outside of the home he or she meets who is offering kind sort of solace or a listening ear is a guidance counsellor.
The in-quota system has been shown to have a disproportionately negative effect on disadvantaged students given their greater reliance on in-school guidance and support. We want a fair and equal opportunity for every student who has challenges. That is why it is very important that we look at this motion and take it seriously.
My World Survey 2: The National Study of Youth Mental Health in Ireland found that 40% of adolescents reported experiencing levels of depression outside the normal range. That is two in every five students. Some 49% of adolescents reported experiencing levels of anxiety outside of the normal range, which is one in every two and 6% reported that they had made a suicide attempt. That is six out of every 100 students. From October 2020 to March 2021, almost half of 15- to 17-year-olds and 18- to 24-year-olds reported that their mental health had worsened since the beginning of Covid. The same report tells us that children aged 12 to 15 were most likely to present with mental health problems at emergency departments in all periods between 2019 to 2021. Probably one of the most staggering figures is that 73% to 85% of all admissions among children aged between five and 15 were on mental health grounds. That is mind-blowing.
Some 60% of those who attended CAMHS in the past year had difficulty accessing services, and 42% said the service they finally accessed did not help with their mental health issues. That is according to the A Piece of My Mind survey of 2,166 children aged from 12 to 17 this year by the Ombudsman for Children's Office, which is a Government agency. Article 28 of the United Nation's Convention on the Rights of the Child states:
1. States Parties recognize the right of the child to education, and with a view to achieving this right progressively and on the basis of equal opportunity, they shall, in particular:
[..]
(c) Make higher education accessible to all on the basis of capacity by every appropriate means;
(d) Make educational and vocational information and guidance available and accessible to all children;
(e) Take measures to encourage regular attendance at schools and the reduction of drop-out rates.
Guidance counsellors deal with all of these issues on a daily basis, but they can only do so much in the hours allocated to them by schools. Schools have a responsibility to provide students with appropriate guidance under the Education Act 1998. What is the definition of that? I really welcome the recent announcement by the Minister for Education, Deputy Foley, of a pilot programme of counselling and mental health supports for primary schools. That is really good. We look forward to the results.
For the 2022-23 school year, there are 855 guidance posts allocated to our second-level schools at an expenditure of almost €60 million per annum. We have to acknowledge the spend as well. There are two simple calls on the Government, one of which is to restore the ex-quota status of guidance counsellors in all secondary schools where hours are calculated based on the number of students in the school. Currently, there is one guidance counsellor to 583 pupils in a non-DEIS school. In a DEIS school, it is one guidance counsellor to 249 pupils. We want to reduce the ratio relating to full-time guidance counsellors in order to increase the number of counsellors available to students. There are many other issues, but sometimes if we have a very broad all-encompassing motion, the most important things get lost. Having done much work with guidance counsellors and their association and from listening to the answers to the surveys they carried out and to guidance counsellors themselves, these were the two things they asked for most, which shows how vocational they are.
They did not want to talk about pay or the difference of pay between institutes. They just wanted these two things solved. They think that if these two things are not dealt with first, everything else cannot really work. It was very admirable that they did not want to use the opportunity to get more pay, which we often see unions doing. It was literally a case of them saying they need more time with their pupils, and to do that, they needed the hours ring-fenced and the ratios brought down. It is very admirable for a profession to put the income of its members in second place. Every guidance counsellor I have met or interviewed has done way beyond the hours for which they are getting paid, because when you are challenged by somebody with a mental health, guidance or careers issue, you do not say "Sorry, I'm off the clock now". People became guidance counsellors because they want that role. We must face the reality of that. It is good that we have a Private Members' motion today that the entire House is supporting. Nobody is objecting to it. It is a very good sign that everybody in Seanad Éireann understands the importance of this motion. I thank all the Senators in the House for supporting it.
We had a good meeting with the Minister today and we had a good presentation in the audiovisual room this morning with Jigsaw, which concurs completely with the argument that guidance counsellors are the first step. Jigsaw was not saying it will take care of it, rather that it is guidance counsellors first. They are the front line. As I said to the Minister during the meeting, prevention is better than cure but prevention is also cheaper than cure. A total of €148 million is spent on youth mental health in Ireland annually. If we spent a fraction of that on investing in our guidance counsellors by having quality ring-fenced hours and lower ratios, it would save the State vast amounts of money but, most of all, it would help us deal with the huge youth mental health crisis we have.
I welcome the Minister of State and thank Senator Garvey for all her work on this issue. I second the motion. It was great to meet with the Institute of Guidance Counsellors this morning and with Jigsaw. One thing that stood out for me was the fact the nature of youth is changing and has changed. We were in a very different position a couple of decades ago. The Government has an obligation to move with that. One thing Jigsaw said to us this morning was that adolescence is happening earlier because of the complexity of life. Some of that is down to social media but it is also down to a host of other things. One young person who appeared before the Oireachtas Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science spoke about the very real anxiety about climate change. That is a new reality for young people. That sense of uncertainty that was brought about by Covid and war is experienced most by young people. The other really interesting point is that people are reaching adulthood later than they did a couple of decades ago, so there is this very long period in somebody's life where he or she is going through growth, which is as much psychological as it is physical, and we must respond to that.
I have spoken to officials in the Department about the ongoing work on a task force on guidance counselling, which is great. We have two very straightforward asks here. Do they cost money? Yes they do, which is why it is also a budgetary ask, but it is a budgetary ask we can really get behind because, as Senator Garvey said, it makes sense. It is cost effective. I hate always saying that if we spend money here, we save money somewhere else, but that is the reality in this case. The Department of Health and Social Care in the UK estimated that targeted therapeutic interventions - early intervention - in a school would cost £229 per person but would derive £7,252 in terms of a lifetime benefit for the state. Financially it stacks up.
I will not go into the actual asks because Senator Garvey has done that very well. I am a member of the Oireachtas Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science and Green Party spokesperson on education. The committee has produced three reports. We produced one on the impact of Covid-19, one on school bullying and its impact on mental health, and one this year on mental health supports in schools and tertiary education. All the reports mention guidance counselling because all the witnesses who appeared before the committee, from the Irish Second-Level Students' Union to teachers' unions to principals to teachers to guidance counsellors to psychological services, told us we need to move in a different direction.
It is important the Minister of State is here and that the Minister met with Senator Garvey earlier today and with the guidance counsellors and Jigsaw. I feel the Minister is committed to this, which is a very good step in the right direction. The role of the guidance counsellor has changed significantly and this means that along with this, we need to put in place something around continuing professional development. We need to recognise it is not just about psychological services but about being a trusted adult to whom a young person can turn. What I have seen in schools in Galway is that they are very creative about how they do that. If there is an instance in a classroom where a young person is suffering, they think outside the box and say this young person does not want to put their hand up to say they are really suffering and having a very hard time. They confide in the guidance counsellor, who then engages with the class teacher and asks what can be done. Do they move everyone around in the class so that the person with the problem is not identified whereas actually they are just doing the reshuffle so that bullying does not continue? That is where young people are.
It cannot be a service that is outside school. I do not believe it can be. Services outside school are great when it gets beyond that early intervention stage, but certainly in the early stages it has to be that network created within a school. At the moment, there are not enough hours to cover that. There are not enough hours for one-to-one intervention with young people. There are not enough hours for all of the other work. There is a discrepancy between DEIS and non-DEIS schools. It could be argued that there should be a different ratio for DEIS and non-DEIS schools, but when I spoke to guidance counsellors, they told me that in DEIS schools, they get home school community liaison whereas non-DEIS schools do not get it, so who ends up ringing the home every day on school refusal, which has become a significant issue since the pandemic? It is the guidance counsellor, and yet he or she is on fewer hours in a non-DEIS school.
All round, we must figure this out and I am delighted the Department is taking this seriously and saying it needs to increase the number of hours. However, we also need to put all the wraparound services in place so the school can manage regardless of the type of school and background - rural, regional or urban. From what I heard this morning, they are all experiencing the same issues. There is no regional divide on this. Every school is struggling with this issue. I again commend Senator Garvey, her research team and the organisations that I know have been a key part in developing this motion.
I did not put my name to this because I have certain concerns regarding children. I have been a foster parent for the past 12 years. I am on my last year. I am taking a break after this. She is doing her final exams tomorrow and, please God, I have got her to a stage in life where she will be able to plough her own way forward, so I have a huge interest in the mental health of children and teenagers.
However, we cannot overlook the impact of Covid on our children and teenagers. This is something that needs to be looked at very seriously. I did not get to the Jigsaw presentation this morning but it is coming to a talk tonight in Stamullen. I work with Jigsaw in County Meath on mental health programmes we run through the Feel Good Project. It is fantastic but it only has 11 places in Ireland. It could do more.
These look after teenagers and those up to the age of 25. We could do with more investment in Jigsaw but trying to find the counsellors is the problem when it comes to providing mental health supports for children.
I welcome the Minister, Deputy Foley's investment by way of the pilot programme in seven counties, offering counselling services in primary schools. However, I have serious concerns about what could happen because when you put in something, you always know something will happen along the way. The over-reach by Tusla that could occur is what I am trying to highlight today, and also the importance of family supports that need to be put in place should incidents that are not life-threatening to the child happen. What are the Minister's plans for this?
On the over-reach by Tusla, what oversight is given to the guidance counsellors operating in schools? Who monitors the communication between school counsellors and students? What happens if the parents of a child wish to get a report on the meetings their child has had with guidance counsellors? I refer to family support. Supporting a student is important but support for the entire family is important too. Does the Minister have any plans to put in place mechanisms by which dialogue can be had between the school counsellors and the parents and family of that student? How can a school support the family of a student as he or she deals with personal or social issues? How could the Department aid schools in offering such help and what does such support look like practically? Those are the question that I have.
It is not only a matter of putting all these counsellors into every primary school and secondary school. What do we do then when problems present? What are the outcomes from that, because families may need support? They often will need support.
Senator Garvey is looking at me. I have vast experience. Families need support. Sometimes the right option is not removing a child from the family home if it is not life-threatening.
But-----
If it is the case that a child needs better supports or families need proper supports, Tusla or other agencies can work with and support the families to have a better family life.
Those are the concerns I would have but I am not too sure whether the Minister of State, Deputy Byrne, is the Minister to answer these particular questions on health.
This is a debate on mental health in schools.
The Minister of State will reply in his contribution.
All right. Obviously, this is to do with mental health and well-being and the guidance counsellors will cover mental health and well-being as well. I would welcome the Minister of State's input on that too.
I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Byrne, for being here today. I also thank Senator Garvey for tabling this motion on youth mental health and guidance services in secondary schools. I am a member of the Joint Sub-Committee on Mental Health. We need to speak more about mental health, and I think we have been in the past year or two years. Of course, we should never underestimate the stigma around speaking about this. It can be difficult for young people, particularly in schools, to talk about it. We need to be role models.
I was on a mental health webinar this week. It was on the impact for young people and the challenges they face. It looked in particular at CAMHS.
In her motion, Senator Garvey refers specifically to secondary schools and the role of guidance counsellors. It is incredible to think the role has changed significantly since I was in school. It has broadened out. There is so much ambition for young people when they are coming up to their final years in school. There is excitement around that as well as around the opportunity and potential for young people. Career guidance counsellors are so involved with students.
It is important to note, in particular after Covid, that career guidance counsellors are taking on a role on the emotional side and on the social side. It is important we have enough counsellors in our schools to be able to support our students, about which Senator Garvey is speaking.
In this morning's information session with Jigsaw and the Institute of Guidance Counsellors, IGC, it was important to understand that what they were asking for was that enough hours are given. I suppose what Senator Garvey is calling for here is to reduce the ratio of full-time guidance counsellors in order to increase the number of guidance counsellors available to our students and to restore the ex-quota status.
I might comment on some of the other areas I see as relevant here. Senator Garvey mentioned DEIS schools, which have increased in number. Last year the Minister, Deputy Foley, increased the number of DEIS schools for the first time in a number of years, but it was more for primary schools. I was fortunate that the secondary school in Ballinasloe, Ardscoil Mhuire, was granted DEIS status but it was the only secondary school in County Galway granted it. As Senator Garvey noted, by doing so, there are now additional supports, which are crucial.
I would like to ask about the qualifications for career guidance counsellors. Working with the IGC, could we look at the qualifications, the expertise and the experience career guidance counsellors bring - for example, on the psychotherapy side and on the social side? Are there other experiences and expertise that could be part of that because when people are recruiting career guidance counsellors in schools, they are probably looking at different skill sets?
On the role of Jigsaw, in the webinar I was on on Monday, Jigsaw and Dr. Duffy, who presented this morning, spoke very much about the one good adult. Young people in primary and secondary schools need support but I am very interested in the youth mental health certificate Jigsaw runs, which is a specialist certificate in youth mental health. I refer to the one good adult and to clubs and other places in our towns and villages which young people frequent. Coaches could be interested in doing something like the youth mental health certificate.
The Minister, Deputy Foley, and Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, are very focused on mental health and the welfare of students and young people in schools. I understand there is a dedicated team to support and strengthen the guidance provision in schools. That started last September under the Department of Education support services. The Minister is also looking at guidance around the junior cycle. This is all great to see but, of course, it needs to happen very quickly. We need to have this in place. I mention also social and personal guidance counselling.
One of the elements that is important also for young people, and for young people moving from leaving certificate, is the transition period. That is a stressful time. I refer to moving from sixth class to first year and how we support our first years. It is a particularly difficult stressful time and it is also a transition period. I am sure many parents feel that as well when their children move from a national school to secondary school or from the secondary school to third level. It is clear that many young people need additional support. That is maybe where the role of guidance counsellors would come in and where I would like to see an increase in supports being made available.
Senators will be aware there are 928 guidance counsellors across the post-primary system. I suppose I am looking at this from a mental health perspective as well. I note the budget allocation is the highest ever at €1.2 billion, but, of course, we need more. Of that, more than €137 million was for CAMHS. It is looking to recruit at a very senior level for the posts of youth mental health lead at assistant national director level in the HSE and a new clinical lead for youth mental health. Both of these positions, when people are in situ, will drive access to mental health services and perhaps engage with the Department of Education around how we deliver supports to young people because they do not work in silos. We do not deliver supports in one segment only. It has to be integrated and we need to look at how we do this across multiple Departments.
I thank Senator Garvey and support her in this. I would like to hear from the Minister of State how the Department of Education and the Department of Health, which has responsibility for mental health services and public health, would work well together.
I welcome the Minister of State to the House. The far-too-often stated sad reality is that there has been a failure of mental health care under this Government. Waiting lists for CAMHS have nearly doubled in recent years with a record level of children waiting for first-time appointments. All this is at a time when Government announced that it plans to reduce CAMHS teams across the State from 73 to 50 and ask already strapped parents to drive greater distances to access basic supports for their children.
Sinn Féin welcomes any measures that seek to address the crisis in youth mental health services. We commend the Green Party for using its time for mental health today. We know that youth mental health care takes place in a broad context that includes both acute and primary or early intervention care. We also recognise the value of intervening early and supporting young people in the communities where they live, learn, work and play. I am, in particular, keen to welcome the calls in the motion to restore the ex quota status of guidance counsellors in all secondary schools whereby hours are calculated on the basis of the number of students in the school and to reduce the ratio of full-time guidance counsellors in order to increase the number of guidance counsellors available to our students. I commend the Green Party for proposing that.
However, while we acknowledge the unique and important role that all teachers play within the education system in providing for the holistic development of students, it is nonetheless important that mental health support is provided by trained and educated professionals. It must not fall on guidance counsellors to fill the gap caused by our failure to provide effective mental health services for young people. Responsibility for meeting the mental health needs of young people is already fragmented across services depending on the severity of need and the age of the young person. As it stands, there are already inconsistent relationships between GP medical services, Jigsaw and secondary and acute care services. This fragmentation has resulted in a system that inappropriately depends on already stressed parents becoming case managers for their children in what can be complex medical cases. We have already seen that such fragmentation allows for vulnerable children to slip through the cracks or become lost altogether with little accountability. Instead of further fragmenting mental health services and burdening overstretched schools, we think the Government must address the elephant in the room and properly invest in community mental health services for young people where services are properly integrated and sufficiently staged across primary and community care and specialist mental health services. Local teams can ensure patients are seen by expert mental healthcare professionals as quickly as possible and the development of such services requires multiannual workforce planning, capital investment and accountability reforms.
Young people accessing mental health services deserve access to the right care in the right place at the right time. That is something that all of us here can agree on. With the best will in the world, teachers cannot and should not be expected to fill the gaps in the current system. Addressing the crisis in our youth mental health services requires a fundamental shift that will prioritise multiannual workforce planning, capital investment and accountability to improve access and reduce waiting times. I thank Senator Garvey and the Green Party for dedicating their precious Private Members' Business time to youth mental health. They should be commended for that.
I support the motion and understand the importance of career guidance counsellors, who have played an important role in my life, as a Traveller from a very disadvantaged and marginalised community. I wanted to say that before I get into my speech.
It seems to me that the lack of resources, despite the increase in the demand for the services of career guidance counsellors, has not been dealt with by this Government. I sit on the Joint Committee on Education, which has spoken to career guidance counsellors and teacher unions numerous times. The demand for career guidance teachers is there. We expect too much off our career guidance teachers and much of the time we expect ordinary teachers, who are not qualified as career guidance teachers, to do the work of career guidance counsellors.
There are an awful lot of gaps in the system when it comes to children and young people in direct provision, those from the Traveller community and other marginalised communities. While the motion is extremely important, there are still major gaps that we need to look at in the Upper House and the Lower House. We must bring about meaningful changes within our education system. It is not just about throwing money in and looking for services. A friend once said to me that no service is made up in the same way as concrete, which is the combination of water and bricks. It is all about the embedded support we are able to give our teachers and, most importantly, our students.
I could go on to talk about the brilliant work of our career guidance teachers. As I have said, they are vital in our schools. A career guidance teacher was a lifeline to me, as a member of the Traveller community. Shortly after my mother died, the Traveller transport assistance was cut. I remember the career guidance teacher went above and beyond by bringing me and my twin sister home from school every day. Some mornings, she came to collect us at the site. That is an example of what career guidance teachers can do.
We need to invest. This motion is a step in the right direction but an awful lot more needs to be put in place for the teachers who are going above and beyond and working extra hours with very little support, as I have said. I know that because I sit on the education committee. This motion does not address mental health because career guidance teachers are not counsellors. We need to be clear around that. It is one thing I will say today. One of the unions' requests for last year's budget was that we would put a county councillor into every school. Excuse me, I mean a psychological counsellor. I was looking at Senator Boyhan when I said "county councillor".
They are synonymous.
Sometimes our county councillors can be counsellors.
The branding is working well.
Sometimes I still see a councillor when I look at the Senator.
Senator Boyhan is a counsellor and a Senator.
I am both.
There should be psychological therapists within schools. That is something we should look at. We should listen to all of the teachers in our secondary schools and support and fund a counsellor within every school on the island. That would be very beneficial to our students.
As I said, I could go on to talk about the good work of guidance counsellors. We support this motion. However, we think the amount of pressure on our career guidance teachers and ordinary teachers in schools is appalling in this day and age. I support the motion but must also address the negative that exists within our education system.
Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit. I was happy to sign Senator Garvey's motion. It is a great celebration and recognition of teachers and guidance counsellors, and the roles they play in our formation as teenagers and adolescents and the adults we have become, we hope.
In a previous life, between 2012 and 2022, I worked with the Mental Health Commission on mental health tribunals for people who are involuntarily detained. I do not mean to be reductive or disrespectful but for the first five years of that experience, I dealt with people who were in absolute crisis and were, on the whole and generally, older people with a history of psychiatric illness. Very often, because of circumstances, their conditions become treatment resistant or the patients are non-compliant with their medications. Very often, older adults are being minded by elderly parents and when the elderly parents die, that adult would go into crisis. Because such people's mental illness has never been diagnosed or treated, they are, by definition, treatment resistant.
In more recent years, I saw an increasing amount of young people in their early 20s at mental health tribunals. In many cases, often through polysubstance abuse, such young people had an acute psychotic episode.
In many cases, recovery is very difficult because that polysubstance abuse can cause organic changes to the structure of the brain or affect young people who have no family history of psychiatric illness. I found the results of this study disturbing. Approximately 40% of adolescents reported having experienced levels of depression outside the normal range and 49% had experienced levels of anxiety outside the normal range, while 6% stated they had made a suicide attempt, as opposed to experiencing just suicidal ideation. Those are frightening numbers, but they align with my experience on the mental health tribunals of the growing presentation of younger people. Obviously, substance abuse can be related to wider factors in the family, the community or the environment in which people find themselves. I fully support the motion.
I agree Covid has had an impact on young people as they go through the school system. My daughter finished sitting the leaving certificate yesterday and I am very familiar with her age cohort. She also passed her driving test in the previous week, so I will be walking and cycling to Leinster House for the foreseeable future. Similarly, my youngest fella finished sitting his junior certificate last week, and with his cohort and peer group, I can clearly see the impact Covid has had on their ability to socialise and relate to one another. This is a timely intervention, therefore. That cohort will push through but kids at primary school level, from junior infants to sixth class, have borne the brunt of Covid, with lockdowns and not being able to attend school or socialise with their peers. There is a developmental gap in that regard, not least in those early years. We might not automatically think of very young children as having been affected, but that is when all the rapid developmental progress takes place, and if it is interrupted, that can have long-term effects. This is a great initiative, therefore, and I am very happy to support it.
I would characterise my own school’s career guidance in the 1980s, when I was a student at the Christian Brothers school in Finglas, as rough and ready. My primary motivation in school was to get out of that environment as quickly as I could. Nevertheless, I had teachers who played a huge role, whom I recall even now, 30 or 40 years later. I would support anything, therefore, that helps support that community. I hear the concerns expressed about guidance counsellors not being mental health counsellors, but there is an important pastoral component to what teachers do. They are, by definition and legally, in loco parentis, so they do parent and there are mechanisms in school for referring students who are in trouble to other allied professionals, so I would not be concerned about that but rather welcome it. I hope the Minister of State will be able to go to Cabinet and say we have restored the ex-quota status of guidance counsellors in all secondary schools, whereby hours will be calculated on the basis of the number of students in the school, and reduced the ratio of full-time guidance counsellors in order to increase the number of guidance counsellors available to our students. Those timely interventions will have considerable value in the lives of young people, especially in this post-Covid era.
I thank Senator Garvey and her Green Party colleagues for bringing this topic to the floor of the House for debate because it is an important one. I always scratch my head and think about how the Senators on the other side of the House are in government and, as I said here the other day on the Order of Business when we were talking about the number of issues that arise, how those Senators have parliamentary party systems and lots of opportunities to engage. They even have a programme for government. That is not to be critical of Senator Garvey and I thank her for highlighting this issue, about which she is clearly passionate. Certainly, she has spent a lot of energy on it over the past week around the House. Any opportunity a politician gets to bring something to the Chamber is to be welcomed and is right.
Even so, there are questions to be asked. Senator Garvey pointed out a number of the shortcomings and concerns and recognised a number of key issues. She noted with concern the findings of My World Survey 2: The National Study of Youth Mental Health in Ireland, and I too note that concern. In some ways, there are two different issues. Of course, mental health is inextricably linked to education, support services and so on. The Mental Health Reform briefing provided an especially important document about protecting and improving mental health services, not least for our young people. We have a youth homelessness strategy, part of which talks about how we are going to support young people, especially vulnerable ones, in mental health, education and staying in education.
To return to the issue of guidance, there are shortcomings there, but the Government has been in office for three years. It has gone past its halfway stage. It is no longer about what it is going to do but what it has or has not done, and that is on what the Government will be judged. People are in the right space and I do not think anyone is against anything Senator Garvey is proposing. I am supportive of the motion but I am just taking the opportunity, as I said earlier, to raise these issues. I do not just sign on the dotted line for issues; I engage with them. This is a Chamber of parliamentary democracy. I am genuinely supportive of the initiative, but there needs to be a higher focus and questions have to be asked as to why there are not increased supports for youth counselling services and career guidance. Career guidance counsellors do a fantastic job and their remit has grown and grown. Most people in that job are fiercely committed to it and go way beyond the call of duty or their job description. When there is a crisis in a community, whether a mass shooting, which, thanks to be God, we have not had, or a major catastrophe such as that in Creeslough, County Donegal, students go back to school. When there is a major tragedy, young people return to school and the career guidance counsellors kick in there, as do community workers, parish workers and support teams. Young people need all the support and direction they can get, and sometimes the guidance counsellor is that person.
We need more resources. I would be more interested in looking again at this issue in the House in a further three months as a Commencement matter and asking the Minister of State to say where we are on the commitments in respect of the key objectives in the motion. I thank Senator Garvey for bringing forward the motion, keeping the focus on it and highlighting the shortcomings of the Government in regard to it. I hope we will all be able to work together, in a collaborative way, to improve the situation.
Although we will support the motion, it misses some crucial aspects. I thank Senator Garvey's office for engaging with us but, unfortunately, we realised too late that amendments we had tabled could not be accepted, which meant we ended up missing the amendment deadline. I might, therefore, put on record some of the issues relating to guidance counsellors. I echo the comments of other Senators regarding the important role they play. It is so important, when we consider their role, that we take into account their specialty training in the case of the small cohort who are not career guidance counsellors but are guidance counsellors nonetheless given the specialist training they have undergone, rather than being just a teacher who has taken on the role but who has trained specifically as a guidance counsellor. From recent engagements I have had with representatives of the sector, it is clear formal guidance counselling services are significantly under-resourced despite an ever-increasing demand for the service.
There is also an issue in respect of guidance counsellors who have undertaken specialist training but who possess undergraduate degrees in subjects not on the curriculum in second-level schools. It is my understanding a significant cohort of suitably qualified guidance counsellors are struggling to secure continuous work because they do not have a teaching qualification or because their field of undergraduate study is not found on our school curriculum. Research undertaken by the Institute of Guidance Counsellors has demonstrated that in almost one quarter of secondary schools, or 22.4% in the 2018-19 year, guidance counselling is delivered in part or in whole by non-qualified personnel. It should be a priority for our second-level students to receive guidance counselling from suitably qualified guidance counsellors as opposed to receiving support from a qualified teacher who does not possess guidance counselling expertise.
I understand the Department's position is that guidance counsellors in secondary schools are required to have both a suitable teaching qualification and specialist expertise in guidance counselling but it is evident from the research I cited that this does not occur in every school. Given this, and the growing demand for this service especially when we consider some of the delivering equality of opportunity in schools, DEIS, band schools and the complex needs a guidance counsellor may encounter, there is perhaps scope for guidance counselling to be recognised in and of itself as a suitable qualification for the provision of specialist guidance counselling services in secondary schools.
Currently, those who are specially trained as guidance counsellors and have been employed do not have pay parity with their colleagues who are both teaching and providing guidance counselling. Aside from the potential benefit to secondary school communities, the terms of employment of guidance counsellors merits additional consideration. I understand that under the current regime, qualified guidance counsellors who do not have a suitable teaching qualification, in the majority of cases, remain on the first point of the relevant pay scale or are given an unqualified rate of pay. This invariably affects their career progression and retention of what is a highly valuable asset to secondary school students. One possible solution is for the Department to look at the current education and training board, ETB, guidance counsellor scale, which allows movement. Perhaps it could be replicated at second level. The Minister, Deputy Foley, met representatives from the concerned sector in 2020 regarding this issue and, in more recent times, officials have met representatives of the sector. Is there any update on steps that have been taken to address the matter in the interim? In addition, I would welcome an update on any actions taken or proposed by the Department to improve the resourcing of this essential service in secondary schools.
On behalf of the Minister, Deputy Foley, I thank Senator Garvey and her colleagues for tabling the motion. Together with our colleagues in the Department of Health and the HSE, who have responsibility for mental health services, the Department of Education plays an important role in supporting the well-being of our young people. It is important. Another important point, as a number of colleagues have said, is that the primary responsibility for mental health lies with the Department of Health and the HSE. Guidance counsellors in schools and teachers have a role, as does everyone. However, serious issues that become medical issues are referred to the health service, which is where the focus must be for those cases. It gives me great pleasure to speak about guidance counsellors because I was education spokesperson for my party in the last Dáil and my leader, Deputy Micheál Martin, treated this as his number one issue as he was committed to the concept of guidance counsellors and the availability of guidance counsellors. He was horrified, as Senator Garvey kindly shared, by the abolition of the ex-quota allocation of guidance hours in 2012.
Under the Minister, Deputy Foley, the Department of Education is committed to supporting the emotional well-being of our children, because we know that this is key to helping them to be happy in their lives and to reach their full potential. Well-being is at the heart of everything we do. Today's motion, which the Government is not opposing, references children and young people’s experience of mental health difficulties. This has also come through in our Department’s research and engagement. For example, the chief inspector's report for 2022 acknowledges that school leaders and guidance counsellors are reporting increasingly high levels of anxiety among post-primary students. Similarly, the consultation earlier this year on the draft strategic framework for lifelong guidance identified that stakeholders perceive a significant per capita increase in mental health issues being experienced in schools on a daily basis. For this reason, my colleague, the Minister, Deputy Foley, has advanced a range of measures designed to support the well-being and mental health of young people within the school context. The well-being policy statement and framework for practice, published by the Department, sets out the ambition and vision that promotion of well-being will be at the core of the ethos of every school. The Minister and I acknowledge that schools in Ireland are doing much to enhance children's and young peoples’ knowledge and skills in relation to well-being. A number of support structures, initiatives and programmes are currently operating in the post-primary system, including the key support, that is, the guidance counsellor.
Guidance is one of the most important functions in the school environment and it is a priority for the Minister and the Department. Guidance counselling in post-primary schools is holistic and is a key part of the school guidance programme. It is offered on an individual or group basis as part of a developmental learning process and at moments of personal crisis. The objective of counselling is the empowerment of students so that they can make good decisions and manage the challenges of their lives in school and beyond. Guidance counsellors meet students on a daily basis and provide support in relation to a broad range of personal and social issues. Guidance counsellors are trained to respond appropriately to situations along a broad continuum. While a guidance counsellor plays a pivotal role in supporting students, they work within a continuum of support model and are part of a whole-school approach to supporting well-being in schools. In post-primary schools a student support team is the overarching team concerned with the progressing of actions for the welfare and well-being of all students. Through implementing a continuum of support, the student support team provides for the educational, social, emotional, behavioural and learning needs of all, some and a few students to ensure their ongoing well-being. As referred to earlier, guidance counsellors have a pivotal role as part of the student support team and may work with students on a range of normal developmental issues that some children find difficult to manage.
On the allocation of guidance counsellors, 928 guidance counsellor posts are now allocated across the post-primary system for the academic year 2023-24. This achieves full restoration of the allocation of guidance counsellor posts. It is important to point out that we have achieved full restoration. The posts are allocated separately and transparently and outside of the quota on the schedule of posts. That is something I fought hard for in opposition. Our party successfully negotiated for it to be included in the programme for Government and the Minister, Deputy Foley, has now implemented it. This makes it easier for schools and those working on guidance to see how many hours are allocated for this purpose. The annual circular on staffing arrangements states clearly that these hours must be deployed to guidance activities including guidance counselling. It is clearly articulated in the circular that the autonomy rests with school management to run the school and deploy the guidance allocation appropriately in order to meet the guidance needs of students. This includes support for mental health and well-being. The circular, which I understand was negotiated by the Department, the institute and other relevant people, states:
It is recommended that the time provided for student appointments should represent a sufficient proportion of the overall allocation of Guidance hours required for the one-to-one guidance counselling necessary to meet the needs of students under the Continuum of Support model.
At one point, I addressed the Institute of Guidance Counsellors, IGC, conference when the Minister in the last Government was not invited because we were the ones pushing guidance. I am satisfied with what I see the Minister has now done on guidance counselling allocation. Guidance counselling was established when Donogh O'Malley and Patrick Hillery were Ministers for Education, but on a number of occasions throughout history it has been more or less abolished or reduced. It is not surprising that guidance was bad in the 1980s because a certain Government and its Minister came into office in the early 1980s and basically abolished it, after it had been established. Then, as Senator Garvey stated, when 2012 came, the ex-quota allocation system was abolished. We fought hard after that and it is now basically back in place.
Guidance is a whole-school activity where each school forms a team to design and develop collaboratively a whole-school guidance plan as a means of supporting the needs of all students. Guidance permeates every aspect of school life and a whole-school guidance plan is developed in collaboration with teachers, students, parents and the wider school community. The whole school guidance allocation model allows for a balanced approach to guidance in schools. In addition to the support from the whole-school guidance and student support teams, the Minister for Education has orchestrated a wide range of additional programmes and initiatives to support schools and students, some of which I will refer to now. The Minister recently announced a pilot programme for the 2023-24 school year to provide significant counselling and mental health supports to children in primary school. This is welcome. It is a significant support for schools. It is brand new. It is revolutionary and a step forward in education. People will look back at this as a significant move. There are two strands to the pilot, the first of which involves the provision of counselling support to students who are most in need of this support. The second will see the establishment of new well-being clusters working with mental health teams to build schools' capacity in the area of mental health and well-being. This pilot will complement ongoing work and resources to support mental health and services being provided in schools.
The National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS, has developed training for school staff on the promotion of well-being and resilience in schools which includes upskilling school staff on the use and implementation of therapeutically-informed approaches in schools. These include trauma-informed approaches, approaches based on the principles of cognitive behaviour therapy and attachment-aware approaches. The friends programmes are evidence-based programmes. In advance of a systematic roll-out of the programme NEPS conducted a randomised control trial. Teachers trained in the programme by NEPS delivered the programme universally to more than 700 primary school pupils in 2013-14. Significant improvements in coping skills, school connectedness and self-concept along with a significant reduction in anxiety were found for pupils whose teachers delivered the programme.
The research demonstrated the programme’s effectiveness in both promoting resilience and wellbeing while also reducing anxiety. For children and young people in particular, wellbeing is significantly shaped by the overall culture and atmosphere.
For example, specifically in the area of bullying, we have redoubled our efforts to tackle and prevent bullying in schools. The Department published Cineáltas: Action Plan on Bullying in December 2022. The plan provides a collective vision and clear roadmap for how the whole education community and society can work together to prevent and address bullying in schools. Cineáltas is a practical, inclusive document that contains 61 actions, which will help us all to work together towards a diverse, inclusive Irish society free from bullying in all its forms where individual difference is valued and celebrated. It is rooted in four key principles: prevention, support, oversight and community. We look forward to working with all stakeholders in the implementation of this plan.
The Department of Education works closely with the Department of Health and the HSE to explore ways to improve supports for young people, including around increased awareness, promoting help-seeking behaviour and signposting to the wide range of services available. Departmental officials are working with other Departments, including those in the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, on guidance-related activities, such as transitions between post-primary and further and higher education. Consultation and collaboration are key for the evolution of guidance policy. Departmental officials collaborated with the IGC and school management bodies to strengthen and clarify content and wording relating to guidance provision in the most recent circular on staffing. Officials will continue to collaborate with stakeholders on guidance policy.
As noted, guidance counsellors are pivotal in their work - the Department and I really mean this - in schools as part of a whole-school guidance approach and in student support. We are undertaking a range of measures to bolster and support their work. A guidance unit was established under the Minister in the Department of Education in 2022 and is progressing a number of actions to strengthen guidance in post-primary schools. It is hoped that establishing the guidance unit will mean that no future government will be able to abolish or remove ex-quota hours. For example, an information note is currently under draft to support schools with strengthening junior cycle guidance through wellbeing. Further guidance is being drafted as regards social and personal guidance counselling.
A national consultation on a draft strategic framework for lifelong guidance was conducted by the guidance unit in the Department in January and February 2023. A report summarising the key messages arising through this consultation will be published in the coming weeks. The strategic framework for lifelong guidance will be published later this year. It will set out the vision, principles and objectives to achieve lifelong guidance, which will help inform, inter alia, the strategic direction relating to guidance provision in schools. It is not addressed in my script so much, but the concept of lifelong guidance is incredibly interesting. As Minister of State, I have to be honest and say that I was not previously aware, and Senator Ruane was on the relevant committee, of the area of adult guidance available through our further education institutions in local areas, and our education and training boards, which is a fantastic resource for people if they find it available to them.
In the context of their work in developing the framework, the Minister asked officials to further consider the allocation model for guidance in post-primary schools, with a view to strengthening guidance in schools as appropriate. She also established a dedicated team as part of the Department’s support services in September 2022. This team’s role is to support and strengthen guidance provision in schools. Much has been achieved already in on-the-ground support, resource provision, face-to-face continuous professional development and webinars. A detailed programme has been planned for the academic year 2023-24 to include supporting guidance concepts at primary level.
The Department funds the guidance counselling supervision scheme to support the work of guidance counsellors. Supervision is an arrangement for guidance counsellors to discuss their work with their peers, facilitated by a qualified supervisor. The goal is to provide space and time for guidance counsellors to reflect on their work in a supported way, and to ensure efficacy of the guidance counsellor-student relationship, which is very important. I certainly had no complaints of overreach in my time, as some Senators referenced. That time is very important for students. During the supervision, guidance counsellors can raise any issue relating to their work in post-primary schools and often focus on the personal and social support they are providing to students. The Department is looking at the potential to increase supervision sessions from five sessions a year to six beginning next year.
The Government and Minister do not oppose the motion. She accepts that mental health issues are increasing among young people. She knows this, as we all do. The Minister believes that the guidance counsellor has an important role to play as part of the support structures available in schools. Significant counselling and mental health supports are being provided to students, as I outlined. Notwithstanding this, as part of its work in developing the strategic framework on lifelong guidance, she has asked her officials to give further consideration to the effectiveness of the guidance allocation model so there is further scope to improve it. The wellbeing of our children is paramount. There is no doubt a Minister and Government are in place that are very supportive of the work guidance counsellors do in our schools. I very much welcome the fact that the motion is supported by all sides of the House.
I acknowledge the presence of the vice president of the IGC, Ms Catriona Rodgers, who takes on the role voluntarily and does not get paid. She has been stellar in her work with me. I hear all the time from two friends I grew up with who have been guidance counsellors for 25 years, but Ms Rodgers still managed to educate me much further than I was previously on the whole challenge around guidance counselling. I also acknowledge that I had a meeting earlier with the Minister. Senator Gallagher and I sat down with Ms Rodgers and three people from the Department, including the Minister. I was very grateful to have that time.
Several issues were referenced, including CAMHS this and CAMHS that. The bottom line is that guidance counsellors are on the front line of the mental health crisis we face among our young people. That is why I kept the motion very pointed and focused. We get distracted by saying things that are populist and so on but, at the end of the day, it is young people I am concerned about. Guidance counsellors are with young people five days a week from 9 a.m. to 4 p.m. We have to take more seriously the fact that they are in contact with young people and are in the same buildings as them, and that their hours have not had ex-quota status since 2012. You can call it what you like. It is good that it is funded and there is a whole-school approach. That is very lovely as well but, as a former secondary school teacher, I know the whole-school approach is for everything and a maths teacher is not the one to deal with a mental health crisis in a young person. Neither is a principal or vice-principal. The only people qualified and with the professional skills to deal with mental health crises in young people are guidance counsellors. That is why I reiterate the motion, which very simply states the ex-quota status of guidance counsellors should be restored. They will help enhance this whole-school approach, which is most welcome, but guidance counsellors and their availability to students are needed. That cannot be underestimated.
That is also why the second part of the motion requests a reduction in the ratio of full-time guidance counsellors. We do not need to reinvent the wheel, and come up with loads more reports, other ideas and other ways of doing things. At the end of the day, guidance counsellors are the ones who are qualified and who are trained professionals in counselling skills. They are the ones who have the qualifications to refer students to further supports. We all know that supports are lacking at present. It is not the fault of the current Government, in some ways. We have only been in place for three years and have had two years of the Covid pandemic and all that, which has enhanced the issue. I am not here to defend the Government; I am here to say that young people are not in the room. They do not get to speak in the House but I do. We need to take this motion very seriously. We need to see action on it in this budget or the next because prevention is better and much cheaper than cure for a problem. We owe it to the young people of Ireland. Everybody has post-Covid issues, including adults, not to mention what it is like for adolescents.
I thank the Minister of State for his time. I welcome the whole-school idea and all that, but I have seen it before. We cannot expect schools to sort out all the problems all the time but guidance counsellors are on the front line and they need our support.
