Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 22 Jun 2023

Vol. 295 No. 4

Nithe i dtosach suíonna - Commencement Matters

Crime Prevention

Senator Emer Currie

I thank the Minister for Justice for taking this Commencement matter.

We are here to talk about anti-social behaviour and an increase in knife crime in urban communities. I wish to pay my respects to the family of Aaron Keating in Ongar. Tragically, he was a victim of knife crime last week. There are no excuses for the taking of a life in these circumstances. The impact of an assault of this nature on a community is enormous and brings the concerns about public safety in communities and community safety to the fore. It is justified and necessary for us to do everything we can to protect people from something like this happening again, so I hope we can have a frank and honest conversation about that this morning.

I know the Minister knows better than anybody else the impact of the closure of Templemore on Garda recruitment and that she is investing in a high-profile campaign to recruit 1,000 gardaí with a rolling intake but Garda visibility is the number one concern people have following this incident. Community gardaí are prioritising incidents and call-outs in communities and, therefore, they have less time for a steady Garda presence on our main streets and in areas of footfall. I thank them for the job they do.

I looked at the Garda report for Blanchardstown in May that covered 2022. It stated that numbers for possession of an offensive weapon are down 53% with 27 takes versus 57. The detection rate in searches remains high at 67% but I wonder if An Garda Síochána has the same time for this type of intervention post Covid. Having spoken to the superintendent in our district yesterday, it seems public order offences and assaults have decreased in Ongar recently but I know people see drug dealing in the village, the damage caused by anti-social behaviour and large numbers of teenagers hanging around the area, although this does not always mean they are up to no good.

The Parliamentary Budget Office tells us that we have 291 gardaí for every 100,000 inhabitants. When you look across Europe, you can see that this would not be top of the list. When we look at areas like Ongar, where there has been such an increase in housing developments, which is a good thing, people are not seeing a comparable increase in Garda numbers and, therefore, they feel that lack of visibility.

The issue of a new Garda station in Ongar is back on the agenda. I fully support this call but it depends on resources. There is no point in having a building if there are not increased resources to run it and be present in the community.

There is an active youth work culture and services in the area. There is a youth café on Thursday night in Phibblestown as well as a programme for teenagers. We have a youth diversion project and we have seen the recent positive results of those projects with an 80% to 98% success rate that is lower if drugs are involved. I know from talking to youth workers in the area that they feel education and awareness is a big issue, that carrying knives is happening and that young people do not realise the implications and consequences. Targeted support works but we need to back that up with universal youth work in general.

Minister for Justice (Deputy Helen McEntee)

I thank the Senator for raising this really important matter today. I would like to extend my sympathies to the family of Aaron Keating and anybody who has been affected by knife crime. Any kind of death is devastating but when somebody is murdered in this way, it has a ripple effect throughout the entire community. It is important to note, and the Senator touched on this, that for the most part, Ireland is a very safe country. Our crime rates are low compared with other similar jurisdictions. The Senator mentioned that evidence shows that assaults are down. That is across the country. There are many crime statistics showing that particular types of crime are down and the confiscation of knives is up. I am very conscious of the way knife crime has gone in the UK and aim to ensure this does not take hold here. When it comes to knife crime, the concern is often is that this is a weapon that is readily available. People talk about having an amnesty or trying to take knives out of the system but when you have a weapon that is in the kitchen of every home across the country, it is a challenge we need to deal with by way of education and making sure An Garda Síochána has the resources and young people are educated at a very early age to know that this is not the route they should go down.

We need a comprehensive and robust legal framework with respect to knife crime that makes sure there are heavy penalties for those who take that path. The maximum penalty under the Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act for conviction for possessing a knife in a public place without good reason or lawful authority was increased from one year to five years, so you can get five years for simply possessing a knife, which is quite a severe penalty but a correct one. We are increasing the maximum sentence for assault causing harm from five to ten years. Again, this is correct. At the moment, when a person harms another person and the victim makes a full recovery, by the time you add up the various different measures that must be taken, the offender might serve very little time for what is a very serious crime.

Knife crime is not classified in crime statistics compiled by An Garda Síochána. This is because knives may be used in the commission of many different types of offence ranging from threats and intimidation, robbery and theft to serious assaults and murder. As a result, there are no quick-fix solutions to which we can point. Long-term, evidence-based strategies are needed to tackle this as part of a wider response to anti-social behaviour, street violence, youth offending and domestic violence as, unfortunately, knives are used in the vast majority of homicides inside the home.

I am committed to bringing all of this together be it specific to knife crime, looking at anti-social behaviour, looking at youth justice interventions, looking at education and looking at how we can support An Garda Síochána.

The Senator mentioned Garda numbers. It is frustrating for everybody that we had started to get a good flow of numbers coming out of Templemore after it being closed for so many years. Covid hit and that obviously put a stop to it and the numbers began to slow down again. After two very successful recruitment campaigns, the numbers are increasing every intake. The next intake will be on 31 July and there will be a following intake in October.

That will continue as long as it needs to in order to get all the numbers up.

I know that in the area mentioned by the Senator there has been an increase in Garda numbers. It has gone from 688 to 706 in recent years. Obviously, we would like to see that number being much higher because, as the Senator rightly said, it is not the gardaí chasing from scene to scene or going from one incident to the next, but those who are on the ground, in the community, linking in with young people and talking to and getting to know them, which is often the biggest deterrent in these instances and which very much helps a community come together.

That is my number one priority. Just this week I met the Garda Commissioner to discuss Garda numbers and to ensure we have gardaí on the street trying to deal with the issues the Senator mentioned. That is and will continue to be my priority.

Senator Emer Currie

I thank the Minister for her response. One issue which has come up in the past few days is the investigation time for knife crime. I believe it is only 24 hours as opposed to a week if there was a firearm involved. Gardaí have said to me that that would be something that might help.

I am also interested in the work that is happening on the community safety partnerships, the Minister’s expert forum on anti-social behaviour, and her subgroup on knife crime with regard to what the next steps are. I am looking to places like Scotland, which treats violence and knife crime like a public health issue and looks at the underlying issues. I do not believe we are in the same space. This is about early intervention and prevention but at the moment knife crime is increasing. It has increased by 78% over seven years, although I know we have got better at detecting it.

In 2018, 16% of people who were suspected offenders in knife crimes were under 18. The Minister is, rightly, ensuring this is on the agenda. What is coming next in respect of the community safety partnerships?

Deputy Helen McEntee

I will touch on a few points there. The length of time An Garda Síochána can hold a person in respect of knife crime is going to change in the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill going through the Houses and which I hope will be enacted before the summer recess.

The Senator mentioned the expert forum on anti-social behaviour. A piece of work is being done through the forum to look at other jurisdictions, Scotland being one of them. In Scotland they engage to a significant degree with the hospitals, the data and the statistics and this then feeds into the policy they have. That work is ongoing at the moment to try to inform what we are doing.

Again, coming back to the preventative piece, the Youth Justice Strategy 2021-2027 saw an increase of about €6 million last year and funding is now at about €24 million, which means we can expand on the youth diversion programmes and invest to a greater degree in more communities. This year alone, four new programmes are being developed. Investment is happening, research is under way and there is a strong criminal justice response in regard to the penalties there. We are also trying to increase Garda numbers. All of this, collectively, is the way we can respond.

On the Senator’s last point, we must ensure people own what is happening in their communities. We have three pilot programmes for our community safety partnerships. We have Drogheda and a number of other areas where similar projects are under way. This will now roll out into communities over the next few years to ensure that not just the gardaí, but our health services, education services, community members and everybody, have a say in setting a plan as to what keeps them safe in their areas.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Minister for being present this morning and I welcome her back. It is great to have a Minister at Cabinet taking Commencement matters, for which I am very grateful.

Pension Provisions

An Cathaoirleach

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Collins.

Senator Maria Byrne

I thank the Cathaoirleach and the Minister of State for coming to the Chamber to discuss my matter. I understand the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science is currently undertaking a review in regard to PhD students and their status as a student versus an employee because, in many cases, people are lecturing, carrying out research, are working with companies, and are being sponsored by companies. My question is about PhD students and access to PRSI. While the PhD students are studying, they are working at the same time. Are they going to have access to PRSI? Perhaps the Minister of State is not in a position to answer today but it is something I wish to highlight because when these PhD students come to retirement age, they must have so many contributions. It is, therefore, very important that we look at this issue.

Minister of State at the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science (Deputy Niall Collins)

I thank Senator Byrne for raising this important and very salient question with regard to researchers. One of the objectives of Impact 2030: Ireland’s Research and Innovation Strategy is to foster a consistent research student experience across research funders, higher education institutions and research disciplines. These highly talented people, our PhD researchers, and are a vital part of Ireland’s research talent pipeline. As Ireland’s research and innovation system has evolved organically over the past quarter of a century, a variety of practices have naturally developed in how we support PhD researchers.

With the launch of Impact 2030, it is now appropriate to consider how we can bring about more consistency in this area. With this in mind, my colleague, the Minister, Deputy Harris, appointed Dr. Andrea Johnson and Mr. David Cagney to undertake an independent national review of State supports for PhD researchers. This exercise encompasses a wide spectrum of issues ranging from stipend levels to particular issues encountered by PhD researchers coming to Ireland from outside the EU or the European Economic Area, EEA. The status of PhD researchers forms part of this spectrum, which is whether PhD researchers should be classified as students, as they are now, or as employees of their host higher education institution.

I am happy now to advise that the co-chairs have recently submitted their first report and the Minister, Deputy Harris, brought this report to Cabinet for information last Tuesday. I commend Dr. Johnson and Mr. Cagney on their comprehensive stakeholder engagement which underpins this report. During spring of this year, they met with 35 stakeholder groups and received more than 750 written submissions. Based on the evidence available at this juncture and in recognition of the stakeholder urgency, they have prioritised making recommendations on stipend levels, issues facing those from outside the EU and the EEA, and improving graduate outcomes. I am also pleased to advise that this report will be published on our Department’s website next week.

Dr. Johnson and Mr. Cagney have indicated that they need more time to finish some aspects of their work and that the issue the Senator raised will be part of that additional work. The co-chairs have rightly been careful not to make any recommendations without sufficient evidence and analysis of the potential consequences. Once the report is published, they will develop a final review report to consider those outstanding issues which will include the PRSI issue raised by the Senator.

Senator Maria Byrne

I thank the Minister of State very much for his response. It is good to hear the Department is considering looking at the issue of PRSI. This is very important because so many people are now going on to third-level education and some are even taking the long route, as the Minister of State would be aware, because I know that under his own brief how very involved he is with the whole apprenticeship side and how people are progressing up through different levels.

It is very important PRSI is a key component to this report and how these PhD students can use that period towards their long-term contributions for their pensions at the other end. Many of them are PhD students for a number of years. As highlighted by the Minister of State, they are very involved in research and they are working. Many of them are paid at the lower levels, so it is important we support them in every way possible. I hope that under that PRSI scheme, they will have access to things like dental and optical benefits because not all rates of PRSI provide that cover.

Deputy Niall Collins

I wholeheartedly agree with the Senator. These people find themselves in a situation where they are neither here nor there and it is very timely that we bring some certainty to their position. The first report which I referred to provides a picture at a point in time of the range of important issues which need to be considered by everyone. Any budgetary implications of the recommendations will be dealt with through the normal budgetary process. A review recommendations will inform the development of a longer term work programme - a 12 to 18-month one - by my Department in collaboration with the stakeholders.

It is important there is ongoing collaboration with them. This exercise marks a major inflection point in PhD provision in Ireland and how we can best support it.

As we look towards the next quarter of a century of Ireland's research and innovation system, I am delighted the independent review commissioned by the Minister, Deputy Harris, will make a major contribution.

Pharmacy Services

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

I wish the Minister of State a good morning and thank him for being here. I appreciate that nobody from the Department of Health is available and I appreciate the Minister of State taking this matter. As long as he will have a meaningful reply, I will have no problem.

There is in place legislation, the Public Service Pay and Pensions Act 2017, under which the Minister for Health is obliged to engage with pharmacists every three years for a review of the operation and effectiveness of the sector and the rates that are payable to pharmacists. Since 2009, the rates paid to pharmacists have been frozen. That was almost 15 years ago. At the same time, costs for pharmacists have gone up incredibly. These are highly qualified people within a medical profession. They are the first port of call for many people in communities. We encourage that. Pharmacists have small consulting rooms in their pharmacies. They have been instrumental in the roll-out of the vaccine programme and we saw how vital they were during the Covid-19 pandemic. They are also employers and retailers. They are contributing to rates and employment in our communities. They are contributing in every way. At a time when we are under pressure for GPs, many of whose lists are closed, pharmacies are more valuable now than they have ever been in the history of the State.

I know from the personal experience of my family that pharmacies are the first port of call for a piece of advice if there are any changes to, or queries about, medication. For anything like that at all, our local pharmacy has a wealth of knowledge. The pharmacists are accessible and personable and offer in-person contact and follow-up. It is not reasonable for those people to have gone so long with a pay freeze and a freeze on their services. If anything, we should be incentivising pharmacists to open more pharmacies. They should provide a community place and threshold before somebody goes to a primary care centre, GP or accident and emergency department. There are many things that can happen at a pharmacy level.

We have had supply issues. I have spoken with our local pharmacist, Ms Ann-Marie Horan, who as it happens is also involved in pharmaceutical representation. In that context, she explained to me that when there is a shortage of supply, pharmacists are qualified to and capable of varying the drug a person has been prescribed and recommending an alternative. However, the pharmacists must email or fax GPs - and it is shocking that people have to fax at all in this day and age - and wait for a renewed prescription when in actual fact they have the competence, qualification and capacity to vary the prescription. When I have inquired about that with the Taoiseach, I have been told there are limited circumstances where that can happen but it is being reviewed for extension. At a time when we are looking at extending the services pharmacists provide, now more than ever the Minister needs to engage. The deadline by which the Minister should have engaged with pharmacists in this effectiveness, operation and rate review is 30 June. By the point I received this representation, no action had been taken by the Minister. I hope the Minister of State will give me better news on that front and we will see demonstrable action from the Department of Health to recognise the value of pharmacies in our communities.

Deputy Niall Collins

On behalf of the Minister for Health, I thank Senator Seery Kearney for raising this important matter. The Minister recognises the role community pharmacists play in the delivery of patient care. Community pharmacy is often the most accessible avenue to receiving such care and provides a vital link in our healthcare service by ensuring the safe supply of medicines to people. Medicines are the most common healthcare intervention, and the use and complexity of medicines are increasing. Pharmacists are the healthcare professionals optimally placed by virtue of their training to ensure the rational and safe use of medicines by patients.

The Minister also acknowledges the vital role community pharmacy will play in the development and implementation of future healthcare service reform, especially with regard to the aims and vision of Sláintecare. The focus of Sláintecare is to develop primary and community care that makes it possible for people to stay healthy in their homes and communities for as long as possible. The Department is open to exploring any evidence-based and appropriately governed services delivered by appropriately trained professionals which will support this aim. In that regard, various approaches to extending the scope of practice of community pharmacists are being progressed by the Department. This includes the introduction of a minor ailment scheme and an enhanced role for pharmacists in the current contraception scheme for women. The implementation of these necessitates engagement with a wide range of stakeholders and full consideration of all the relevant legislative and operational issues involved.

The Department recognises the need for the availability and retention of pharmacists so that pharmacy may continue to meet patient needs and play a full role in the development of an integrated healthcare service. The Pharmaceutical Society of Ireland is undertaking a project which aims to assess emerging risks to the continued availability of a professional pharmacy workforce within community and hospital pharmacy in Ireland. This will inform how and where pharmacists are working, examine their perceptions of the sector and identify barriers to choosing to work in patient-facing roles.

The regulations governing the pharmacy fee structure are set out in the Public Service Pay and Pensions Act 2017 and in SI 639 of 2019, the Public Service Pay and Pensions Act 2017 (Payments to Community Pharmacy Contractors) Regulations 2019, which put the current fee structure in place with effect from 1 January 2020. Under section 42 of the Public Service Pay and Pensions Act 2017, the pharmacy fee structure must be reviewed every third year after 2020. The Department is currently carrying out a review and Department officials held a meeting with the Irish Pharmacy Union in that regard on 20 June 2023.

The Minister believes there is a real opportunity to work collaboratively with community pharmacists and with other healthcare providers to make a significant difference to patient outcomes. Of course, any publicly funded pharmacy service expansion should address unmet public healthcare needs, improve access to existing public health services and provide better value for money.

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

I thank the Minister of State. To be fair, that was a meaningful reply and I appreciate it. There are a couple of things to say in response. I welcome the acknowledgement of how vital pharmacies are. The language used by the Minister of State was better than mine. He referred to the value of pharmacists in the accessible and vital link they provide in our communities and in the whole healthcare system for our country.

I value the fact there has been engagement on this issue. Where we have a little disparity is that the Minister of State said in his contribution that the regulations and fee structure were put in place in 2019 and took effect from 1 January 2020. What that does not reflect is that the fee structure was set in 2009, which is almost 15 years ago. With everything that has increased since then, we need a review. My plea is that we need to review that upwards. This fee structure came into place in 2020, since when we have experienced Covid-19. We saw during the pandemic how extraordinarily vital pharmacists are in our local communities.

Deputy Niall Collins

In the interests of clarity, I will point out that the regulations governing the pharmacy fee structure made under section 9 of the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2009 expired at the end of 2019. Under the aforementioned Public Service Pay and Pensions Act 2017, those regulations were replaced on 1 January 2020 to maintain the statutory basis for the contractor payments and prescribe the fees payable from that date. The current pharmacy fee structure was put in place and, as I said, came into effect on 1 January 2020. Since then, the overall spend on fees paid to community pharmacists under the community drug scheme has continued to rise year on year.

The State has also paid for additional services provided by community pharmacists, including administering the Covid-19 and flu vaccinations and participating in the free contraception scheme, which was launched in September 2022. This demonstrates the substantial investment made by the Government to ensure community pharmacies are remunerated for the services they provide on behalf of the State. The statutory review of pharmacy fees is ongoing and departmental officials held a productive meeting with the Irish Pharmacy Union on 20 June. The Minister believes there is a significant opportunity to work collaboratively with community pharmacists and other healthcare providers to make a substantial difference to patient outcomes.

Acting Chairperson (Senator Martin Conway)

I thank the Minister of State, and Senator Seery-Kearney for raising this important issue. We realise how busy the Minister of State is, so we thank him for coming to the House.

Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionraí ar 10.01 a.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ar 10.32 a.m.

Sitting suspended at 10.01 a.m. and resumed at 10.32 a.m.