The Minister of State is very welcome to the House. I thank him for taking this matter.
Local Government Matters: Statements
I am delighted to be invited to speak about local government and planning in my role as Minister of State with responsibility for that area. I was delighted to accept the invitation. As a former Member of the House, I am aware that Members have a huge interest in local government affairs and are fierce advocates for strong local government. As Minister of State, that advocacy and support are appreciated. Since my appointment in late December, I have been to the House on several occasions on individual policy matters but this is my first opportunity to address the subject of local government in a broad and general way. I intend to use this opportunity to set out my main priorities for my term in office but I am here primarily in listening mode. I look forward to hearing the views of those present on what they deem is the general health of local government.
Local government is a constitutionally separate arm of government. Ireland's 31 local authorities are fully independent corporate entities with full responsibilities under the law for the performance of their functions. Local authorities provide in excess of 1,100 services on behalf of some 30 central government Departments and public bodies. Many of these programmes are key deliverables under critical Government policies. I acknowledge the role of councillors, their reserve functions, and the phenomenal work they do within their individual local authorities, particularly on the ground for their constituents. The relationship between national and local government could, therefore, be described as one of co-dependency. Housing for All, active travel, Sláintecare, Age Friendly Ireland, town centre first, the biodiversity officer programme, climate action, the sports plan and the waste plan for the circular economy, among others, all require significant local authority input to deliver. One of the features of local government and delivery is that many of the national programmes are now delivered through the local authorities as regards funding, including the urban regeneration and development fund, URDF. Many of these programmes come through the local authorities.
The role of local authorities in the national response to the Covid-19 pandemic and, even more recently, the Ukrainian humanitarian response has been fundamental to the State's ability to manage these emergencies. I applaud the work of staff and councillors in both these situations at local level. Members will agree, therefore, that a well-functioning and appropriately resourced local government sector is critical to the success of the Government programme. I am pleased to report that local authorities are in a stable financial position following the financial crisis years. Central government support during the crises of the Covid-19 pandemic and the Ukrainian war has enabled local authorities to ensure they have financial stability and to minimise negative financial impacts.
Central government acknowledges the pressures faced by local authorities, particularly in 2022-23 in respect of general inflation and higher costs, and the challenging circumstances in which the sector is now operating. In 2023, the Exchequer is providing an allocation of €60 million to assist local authorities with the increased costs of providing a wide range of services and, in particular, rising energy costs. Out of the €481 million being provided through the local government fund to support local authorities in 2023, €287.2 million will go towards assisting local authorities with the cumulative effect on pay costs arising from national pay agreements and a variety of measures under financial emergency measures in the public interest, FEMPI, legislation. The supports have increased year on year from €4.7 million in 2016. These allocations for 2022 demonstrate my Department's commitment to ensuring local authorities will have the necessary resources to perform their functions this year. For 2024, the review of local property tax, LPT, baselines is under way. The objective of the review is to recommend a set of key indicators, which will be used to allocate available funding to local authorities in a fair, equitable and transparent manner. It is intended, once approved, to apply the recommendations to 2024 LPT allocations.
We are currently embarking on another very significant local government reform. A Bill to provide for a directly elected mayor for Limerick is well advanced and will be published very shortly. This will make a major contribution to the development of Limerick and the mid-west region over the coming decades and improve the lives of people who live there. The mayor will be elected for a term of five years and will take on the executive functions of the current chief executive. Some functions will remain with the CEO but, in the main, they will transfer to the new mayor. The mayor will also have new functions and responsibilities, which are being provided for under the legislation. However, this new office of mayor will recognise the role of the democratically elected council and the council will continue to exercise its reserved functions, as before. The mayor will obviously have a democratic mandate, which will be very significant and the first of its type in Ireland. As a Limerick man, former councillor and national representative, I am proud to see Limerick leading the way for other local authorities on this matter. Furthermore, the forthcoming Bill also provides for a plebiscite in any other local authority that wishes to hold an election for a directly elected mayor in the future.
Members have always been strong defenders of local authority-elected members, and their role and conditions. A fundamental reform of the remuneration payable to councillors was approved by the Government with effect from 1 July 2021, taking account of the 2020 Independent Review of the Role and Remuneration of Local Authority Elected Members, known as the Moorhead report. These reforms reflected the importance of the role of the councillor in respect of statutory policymaking, strategic development of our communities, governance and oversight of the local authority, community representation, and the expansion in the role since the 2014 reforms. An almost 40% increase in the annual remuneration payment, which is now linked to a local authority pay scale, the retention of the existing annual expenses allowance, and the introduction of the vouched local representational allowance have put the remuneration package available for councillors on a more solid footing for all.
Legislation introducing maternity leave for councillors was enacted in December last year. This law also provides for the temporary co-option of a substitute for a councillor who wishes to step away temporarily from the role while on maternity leave or who is absent due to long-term illness. I fully recognise, however, that the process of improving councillors’ terms and conditions must continue. It is something I am very much committed to. In that regard, a review of the retirement gratuity in place for councillors is under way within my Department. Furthermore, I have asked my officials to prioritise the examination of the personal safety allowance very recently introduced for all Oireachtas Members in order to prepare a business case for the approval of the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform for a similar allowance for councillors. I am very much in the process of finalising that and the submission will go to that Department very shortly. I will also shortly introduce regulations to provide for an allowance for women councillors to enable them to have extra administrative or secretarial support after they have had a baby, as part of a wider package of family-friendly supports. All of these measures are designed to make the role of councillor viable and sustainable for anyone interested in entering local politics, which we want.
In the lead-up to the 2024 local elections, efforts to encourage greater diversity and gender balance in local government will deepen as my Department continues its funding support to women’s groups, such as Women for Election and See Her Elected, and political parties and groupings, as well as initiatives undertaken at local authority level. I want to see more women entering politics and to create an environment that is more conducive to that. In addition to these important improvements in councillors’ term and conditions, let me also add that it is important their independent role in overseeing the performance of their local authority is fully respected. They are democratically elected by the citizens of their counties in their local authority areas to fulfil their role, are ultimately accountable to the electorate every five years, and are facing an election next year.
I thank the Cathaoirleach and the Members for the invitation to attend here today. I want to hear their views and engage in robust discussion in this area. I am fully aware of the issues. I am travelling around to all the local authorities and meeting the local authority members. I see the great work they do but I equally see the demands of carrying out the role. The role has certainly changed over the years and we want to continue to make improvements to reflect that changing environment and dynamic within which councillors have to operate. I very much welcome today's debate and I look forward to hearing Senators' views.
I thank the Minister of State for honouring the work of our councillors throughout the country, and rightly so. To begin the debate, I call Senator Paddy Burke.
I welcome the Minister of State to the House. It is a timely time to have a debate on local government as we face into local elections in May or June of 2024. There are many aspects to local government and there have been many changes in local government in the past 20 or 30 years. As someone who was a member of a local authority for 25 years, until the dual mandate came in, I have seen a lot of changes. When I started first as a local councillor, we had responsibility for housing, loans, roads, planning - you name it. Just before my time local authorities also looked after health within the county boundaries.
That has changed completely to a very small role for local authority members. It is a very important role but a very small role, mainly in adopting a county development plan. That is the biggest role they have, as well as adopting an annual budget. You have to look back and see how efficient local authorities are. In my view, they are not that efficient at all. They should be more efficient and this is an area that should be looked at. The public deserve an efficient service from local authorities. When I was a town councillor, the local authority in Bradford or some place in England adopted a resolution that it be run like a business. It was a real model. I do not know what has happened since. That was 20 years ago. They decided to run it like a business and if a person went in he or she got an answer there and then. If members of the public went in about something, whether it was housing, local government, roads or planning, they got an answer there and then or if they did not, the council strove to give them an answer straight away. At least they met somebody. The efficiency of our local authority system is an area the Government has to look at. Councillors tell me they are frustrated trying to address issues, no more than we are as Oireachtas Members. You can only presume what it is like for the ordinary members of the public who go in there or ring looking for something to be done or looking for answers.
In the past week, the CEO of the Planning Regulator met with Fine Gael Senators. I see he has since met with Oireachtas Members. It was a very useful meeting. There are areas in the county development plan where he says councillors have a lot more power. A lot more can be put into the county development plan than is being put in or that councillors know what is to be put in. There is a real need for education through seminars or whatever. He said he had met with and given seminars to some local authority members. This should be done while the county development plan is being put together. There are specific things that can be put in. The county managers try to keep councillors in the dark. They have a role to play here in educating councillors and telling them what can and cannot be put in. We have seen this with the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, cutting down on the amount of land that has been zoned. Land has been dezoned in lots of areas where they do not want too much land zoned. Land has been dezoned in Mayo. Maybe that is a good thing and maybe it is a bad thing.
Even if that is done, there should be an easy system whereby there can be a variation of the county development plan. I always felt that the variation of a county development plan could be brought forward only by the manager, or the CEO as he is known now. That was a grey area when we questioned the regulator on this. He was of the view that councillors could pressure the manager into bringing one forward where there is a good proposal. I am not saying it should be done for every proposal but where there was a good proposal that made sense, where all the services and everything are provided, a variation could take place. Managers are reluctant to bring forward variations. If it is the case that councillors have the power to do that or to bring that pressure, that is an area they do not know about and that we do not know about either. It is an area that should be explored. The Minister's office should put in place stipulations to say something can or cannot be done. There is a need for education and it is an area about which I would like to talk more.
The Acting Chairperson is looking at me. There are a lot more issues I had down here to talk about but I am obviously not going to get a chance to do that. I welcome the debate and I know the Minister of State will take on board a lot of the things that are said here.
I thank the Minister of State for coming in today. I was one of the Senators who requested this debate. It is remarkable the amount of work our local authority members have had to endure and do over the last number of years. Since June 2019 to today we have had Covid to deal with and we have also had the Ukrainian crisis. Each and every one of those members, and their communities, has stepped up to support the Government in the measures it introduced, whether in the Covid crisis or the Ukrainian crisis.
With that in mind, I have other things to raise today. For me, these are the most important people when it comes to delivering local government. I was talking to the Association of Irish Local Government, AILG, and the Local Authorities Members Association, LAMA, yesterday, which represent county councillors throughout this country. They have a number of issues about which they would like me to talk to the Minister of State. There have been changes to local government within the term of this Government and those changes have not been in favour of local democracy. They have not been in favour of the local councillor. We want to build strong local government systems to promote the welfare and good government of the people of Ireland and we should protect and support democratic local government and promote democratic leadership of our elected councillors. We do not seem to have done that over the past number of years. Let me explain why.
In the past 12 to 18 months alone, direct actions by the Government around local government and local democracy have directly attacked the powers of local councillors. These attacks include the removal of section 183 of the Local Government Act, which is reserve function for disposal of council-owned land, and giving that power to the Land Development Agency, LDA. There is also the removal of Part 8, the planning reserve function, until December 2024 for council-owned housing developments. The Minister of State knows that will not be reviewed and nothing will happen on that. Councillors have been removed from the governing authorities of universities under the Higher Education Authority Act 2022. There is a current proposal by the Department of Justice to replace existing joint policing committees, which are chaired by local councillors, with community policing forums with an independent chair. There is a lack of recognition of the role of the councillor by outside Government Departments and public agencies. In the recently published town centre first policy initiative, driven by the Department of Rural and Community Development and concerning the regeneration of rural towns and villages, there is not one mention of the word "councillor" throughout the whole policy document. This is a further example of the lack of recognition for the important role of the local councillor and a further dilution of the members' powers.
In April and May of this year the Congress of Local and Regional Authorities, as part of the Council of Europe, carried out a monitoring visit to Ireland on our local government system. Its draft report is highly critical and is a damning indictment of our current local government systems. It states that although Ireland is very strong in democracy, it remains one of the most centralised countries in Europe and there is still a lot to be done before local self-government in Ireland is on par with other European countries. The rapporteurs have expressed concern over the limited share of public affairs under local authorities' responsibility and local authorities' limited resources, functions and finance.
They pointed to the imbalance between the elected members and the chief executive of local authorities without a directly elected mayor. Reference was made to the lack of formalised and regular consultation as well as extensive and detailed administrative supervision. Members of the regional authorities are indirectly elected and are not accountable to citizens for decisions they take. All of these issues show there has been a dilution of the powers of local government.
Another area of concern is the gratuity scheme. Councillors do not receive a pension upon retirement as elected members. They receive a lump-sum gratuity payment but this is contrary to the normal terms and conditions that apply to public sector employees and other officeholders such as Oireachtas Members. The gratuity payment is capped at a maximum of 20 years' service, regardless of whether councillors have served for longer than that. There are many councillors with up to 40 years of service. The gratuity is payable upon councillors' retirement, whether that arises voluntarily, following failure to be elected or because of ill health or death. Under the terms of the retirement gratuity scheme, the payment is calculated on the basis of salary before July 2021. This needs to be brought up to the current date. It is imperative that we do this. If we want to get people into politics, there must be proper pay and conditions for them.
In May this year, approval was given for a special allowance to enhance the security of Oireachtas Members' homes and offices. Its purpose is to keep us safe. Councillors face the same safety issues. They do the same job we do. My office was burned down in 2019 in an arson attack. I was a councillor at the time.
The Senator's time is up.
Councillors should be treated the same as elected Members of the Oireachtas.
If I may, I want to refer to a report I produced.
The Senator is over time.
It is to do with councillors' training allowance. Some councillors do not get the same amount of training allowance as others do.
I must be fair to everybody by giving each speaker the same amount of time. The Senator may speak to the Minister of State after the debate.
I will give him my report.
I welcome the Minister of State. Most of us in this House started our political careers as councillors. We have an understanding of the work they do and the role they play in communities. We must recognise that role.
I do not agree with everything Senator Keogan said but I agree there has been a diminishment of the powers of councillors, not just under this Government but under previous governments as well. The Putting People First policy probably was the start of it. I looked at that in a positive way initially but, in fact, it has not restored any significant powers to councillors. One power that was lost out of that, and by the creation of Irish Water, was in regard to the provision of water services. Councillors also lost the ability to decide where the population would go and the infrastructure that would follow behind that. It is interesting that we are coming full circle now, with the Government going back to the local authorities to implement the various rural schemes in villages and smaller towns.
Putting People First introduced the local property tax. I saw that as a means, at long last, of giving councillors power over the budgetary process and some say in where the money would go. We then had the introduction of the 20% equalisation fund. Fortunately, that has now been done away with. Reference was made to one of the key issues, namely, that without a baseline review, we are not looking at a balanced system. Councils were told they were getting the 20% back from the equalisation fund but, the next minute, they were told they had a certain baseline and the Government would decide how that would be spent. The money was not really being returned. The baseline review is critical for the funding of local authorities as we move forward. It could, in turn, enhance councillors' role and how they manage their capacity to vary the local property tax up or down by up to 15%. Many speakers referred to the need for training and informing councillors on exactly what they can do. We need greater clarity on what they can do with the 15% variation. That should not be a matter for the management to decide. We need some guidance in this regard.
Senator Burke spoke about county development plans. For councillors, the drawing up of the county development plan is the only real democratic role left to them in deciding how their county evolves and develops. Even that role has been minimised by the national planning framework, NPF, the use of regional plans and, indeed, the role of the Office of the Planning Regulator. Every local authority has been hamstrung. I spoke in the previous Dáil about how the NPF set its population targets and how the regional authorities then took the population targets and aligned them to each county. Why should a regional authority have a role in telling Wicklow County Council, for example, what its key towns should be? Why should a regional authority, without any knowledge of the local infrastructure, have a role in telling councillors what population should be put into those key towns? One of the fundamental flaws of the NPF was that it was not aligned with the reality of what critical infrastructure is in place to allow for housing development. We are seeing examples of that now in every county, with a population being allocated when there is no infrastructure there to deliver on that population. In other areas where the infrastructure is in place, we cannot build houses because we are exceeding the population target. The first real evidence of this problem arose in Greystones three weeks ago, when Wicklow County Council refused permission for 98 houses solely on the basis that their construction would exceed its population target. There was no other reason for the refusal other than that it would exceed a target figure in a spreadsheet in the county development plan. This is being done in the middle of a housing crisis. Councillors understand the infrastructure in their local authority areas. They should be allowed to determine how the population is distributed within their counties. Local policy should not be based on diktats from the national level that go down to regional authorities and then to local authorities.
Rural planning is a sensitive issue for anybody who comes from a rural area. The Government is working on new draft guidelines in this regard. Anybody who has worked in rural planning anywhere across the country will talk about how this is a very emotional journey for the applicant who is going through the process. Applicants are not developers. They are people who are trying to build a house for their own needs. As such, their situation should be looked at slightly differently from how development is managed. There is an issue with how preplanning happens across the country. Each county interprets preplanning by way of a different process. If I am dealing with Wexford County Council, for instance, I can walk in and meet a planner. In Wicklow, I will barely get an email in reply to a query. It is simply not good enough. People who are making a preplanning application should be able to sit down and interact with local councillors. It is they who are relaying the information back to the individual.
The Senator's time is up.
When it comes to rural planning, we must remember that we are dealing with people who want to build homes on their own land. That is not the same as development and it should be looked at in a slightly different way.
Cuirim fáilte ar ais roimh an Aire Stáit. I will focus on housing. My county of Clare is a mainly rural county. We have Ennis, Shannon and Kilrush, and that is about it when it comes to towns. There is great stuff being done on housing. It is really good in urban areas but my concern is that a lot of the activity through the Land Development Agency is not relevant in my county. Good work is being done in Clare. We have reached our targets on social housing. However, cost-rental and affordable provision is just not happening because most of it is coming through the LDA.
I want people to live in our villages and towns. We see how much demand one-off housing puts on resources. Many people would like to live near their local school and have their children be able to walk or cycle there. We must give people choices. However, there is no mention of serviced sites for towns and villages, which is what we want to see happening under the town centre first policy. I am not sure whether housing policies are marrying with the town centre first policy. The local authority cost-rental scheme is a Government-backed scheme to provide long-term rental agreements on homes at 25% below the market rent. Most cost-rental properties will be delivered through the LDA. In fact, many of these types of incentives are being delivered through that agency. I am not clear as to whether there is any onus on local authorities to do any of these things. Could they say, "That is a matter for the LDA and we do not do it"? I would appreciate an answer on that.
I would like to be able to help my local authority to build houses outside of the social housing stock, on which it has done very well. No affordable housing or cost-rental housing has been built. I was very happy that an undertaking to provide such housing was included in the programme for Government, with cost-rental provision, in particular, being a win for the Green Party. The local authority affordable purchase scheme supports buyers to purchase council-provided homes at a reduced price.
Affordable purchase homes are being provided, again through the LDA as part of Project Tosaigh. Does that mean there is no onus on the local authority or there are no supports for the local authority if it is all done through the LDA? Clare is not the only county in this situation and there are many counties that do not have the population of the cities and places where there are rent pressure zones and where the LDA ensures proper housing is going to be constructed by the local authorities.
The scheme for cost-rental tenants in situ allows local authorities to buy properties. Where a landlord is selling, the local authority then rents the property to the existing tenants on a cost-rental basis, which is brilliant. The plan is to provide 1,850 cost-rental homes in 2023, including through the Land Development Agency. Will any of those 1,850 be done outside the Land Development Agency? Is there a breakdown of targets per local authority outside of the Land Development Agency?
For local authority social housing acquisition, in 2023, the Government will fund local authorities to purchase 1,500 social homes each. Clare County Council is doing very well and it has bought a lot of houses from private developers and turned them into social housing stock, which is great. Many people I know are very grateful that they got a house with an energy rating of A1, which is brilliant.
The repair and lease scheme is to address problems of vacancy. As far as I know, it is capped at roughly €60,000 per repair. Are there targets for the local authorities in this regard? I am not sure there are. A property has to be vacant for 12 months, there has to be proof of demand for social housing and properties must be assessed to be deemed suitable for social housing, which is good. Again, that sees social housing supported.
The Croí Cónaithe fund is the only really clear one I have come across, and I have seen at first hand that this is working in towns and villages in County Clare. Clare County Council had more than 90 applicants, which means 90 derelict or empty buildings are being turned into homes. That is a very clear win on housing in my county. I do not see many other clear wins around the cost-rental model or the affordable model for housing in Clare.
I could go on about active travel and a lot of other things, but housing is one of the main ones. To raise one other issue, if we do not invest in water treatment, we will not be able to save our towns and villages. We have had a huge issue with this in Clare and I have been raising this for the past three years. If we do not see investment in water treatment and water infrastructure, we will not be able to save our towns and villages.
It is good to see the Minister of State, Deputy O’Donnell. I am going to continue the theme of housing and I am sure the Minister of State will not be surprised by that. I have to be frank with him. The situation in Limerick city is dire, and I think the Minister of State knows that. The fact that no affordable homes were delivered in Limerick by the Government last year is an abysmal failure. Just 17 were approved. The targets were incredibly poor in the first place at 264 affordable homes for first-time buyers over a five-year period, which works out at some 53 a year. That is incredibly lacking in ambition but the Government is not even getting near that target.
The Minister of State will know because he does work on the ground, as I do, just how bad the situation is in Limerick. He knows the average rent right now is €1,645 per month. He knows that while the thresholds have been increased, they have been increased nowhere near enough at €35,000 for a single person and €36,500 for a couple. This means we have thousands of people in Limerick trapped in renting and paying €1,600 a month. Just two weeks ago in Castleconnell, a three-bedroom house was going for €2,000. There are thousands of renters trapped paying outrageous rents, not able to afford to make any savings and having no prospect of owning a home of their own. The homeless figures continue to get worse. The Minister of State will know that since the appalling decision to lift the ban on evictions, we are facing an ever-growing crisis of evictions, particularly in Limerick city but also in parts of the county.
I will cite Castleconnell to the Minister of State because he knows the area well. If we look at the local area plan for Castleconnell, it tells us that 130 social houses should be built between now and 2026. Does the Minister of State know how many are actually being built at the minute? It is six. I have to be very frank. That is the Minister of State's responsibility, not just because he is the Minister of State with responsibility for housing but because he has been the local representative for a long time now. There are no other words to describe that than “abject failure”. As a result, the people I am talking to across Castleconnell and across large parts of our city are basically in despair. They have children who want to go to local schools and they have nowhere to live. There is a young woman who is living with her parents not far from where I live. She has two children, a three-year-old and a five-year-old, and she is stuck in her bedroom at home, with her parents, in her late 20s. There is no prospect of a home for her because those homes have not been built.
What particularly concerns me when talking about local authorities is that I have noticed a growing trend of trying to blame the local authority for the lack of action. I completely reject that. I have to say that the people I deal with in Limerick County Council are doing their best, day in, day out, to try to help people. However, they are dealing with an impossible situation because of a lack of Government supports, in the first instance, and a lack of housing.
The figures speak for themselves, and I have just given them to the Minister of State. The Government has failed to build social housing, it has failed to give the moneys required to build social housing and, as a result, people are suffering horrendously where the Minister of State and I live. The problem is that there is no prospect of it changing. I have just cited those figures to the Minister of State. How on earth could anyone justify a target of achieving zero affordable homes in Limerick last year? It is abysmal. We need a sea change in policy. My colleague, Deputy Eoin Ó Broin, has pointed out time and again that the targets are exactly half of what they need to be in terms of social housing, but the Government is getting nowhere near those targets. I would like to hear the Minister of State's response on that.
In the short time I have remaining, I want to speak about the directly elected mayor. As the Minister of State knows, the people of Limerick voted for a directly elected mayor over four years ago. In the Minister of State's speech, he mentioned that the legislation is due to be published shortly, which is exactly what the Minister of State, Deputy Peter Burke, said when he was in Deputy O’Donnell's shoes last year. People are genuinely scratching their heads in terms of where on earth this legislation is. I heard the Minister of State on Limerick radio just a few weeks back, saying it will be out before the summer. We are finishing in two weeks. Are we going to see it introduced in either House before the summer? We are going to need to examine the Bill in detail. I am very worried because the Minister of State does not seem able to give us any detail in terms of what executive powers a directly elected mayor is going to have, which is a key point. We need this directly elected mayor to be able to tackle the crisis we have in housing, for example, and in transport. I am not convinced, frankly, because the Government is so conservative, that it is going to give the powers that this person needs as mayor. The Minister of State should tell us when exactly it is going to be published, when we can see it and when it is that we can start that debate.
Ahead of these statements, I canvassed Labour Party members, both councillors and local area representatives, to get their feedback. I also spoke to a few people who are not members of the Labour Party, which should put the spooks up some of the other parties in that we canvassed far and wide to get an idea of what people are experiencing. I would need an hour to go through all of the issues that were raised with me on behalf of those councillors and local area representatives but I will try to go through some of them.
A big issue that came up, and which has been mentioned in the House, is that of the directly elected mayor. An interesting point that a number of people made to me is that we tend to ask people when we want to expand the powers of local government. However, in the past 15, 20 or 30 years, when we have been decentralising and disempowering local government, we have not really asked anyone about it and it just kind of happened. There was certainly a frustration around that and around when we will see see the directly elected mayor situation moving forward.
A strong point made to me by the Labour Party councillors was around the local development and planning legislation. I am under strict instructions to express in the strongest sense the concerns that that is going to once again disempower local government, particularly the elements that seek to circumscribe the power of local government vis-à-vis planning. At a time when we ask people whether we can increase the powers of local government in regard to directly elected mayors, we are not asking whether we can decrease the powers. There is certainly a sense that that legislation is going to further disempower councillors who are elected by the people to represent them, and who have a really important role in planning in particular.
I might take a moment to focus on the councillors before talking about some of the areas people are concerned about. I talk about this centralisation and making the powers local government has, particularly in the areas of public transport, education and health, slightly smaller. At the Dublin Citizens' Assembly, it came out that Irish local government is the least powerful in Europe outside of Moldova. That is something we should be concerned about. We should want to have empowered and strong local government and not just see our local councillors as feet on the ground to canvass on behalf of Deputies and Senators. They should be empowered to make decisions.
While we are disempowering them, I am sure every single party here and the Minister of State will have heard about the ever-increasing workload. There is a part-time salary for a full-time job. I can speak internally from speaking to councillors. We are always looking to diversify our local government representation, which is really important for politics. I refer particularly to women and diverse candidates. When we tell them about the workload and the lack of support, it is hard to encourage people into the job. We tell them it will be a part-time salary but bejaysus it is going to be a full-time job and that there is not a great amount of support for councillors. That is a problem with regard to who we are getting into local government and the work they are able to do.
If I may move to the council structures, I was not aware of this but someone has told me that, if you come from outside the public service - I am talking about recruiting staff into local government - and are starting work in the local authority, you have to start at the first point of the pay grade whereas, if you come from the public service, there is a different system. I am talking about diversifying our elected representatives but also enticing good quality staff into our local authorities. If they are starting on a different pay grade, that is a problem in and of itself.
Someone mentioned the county development plans and how they operate. It was raised with me that there is no independent legal advice given to councillors in that regard. There is no access to reports and personnel from Irish Water, EirGrid or the EPA to allow councillors to make informed decisions. Councillors often have to rely on whoever they happen to know in those areas.
My last point on transparency and access is that there should be a directive or firm support from Government for council meetings to be digitally recorded and made publicly available to improve the transparency of local government and to make it more publicly accessible. I will end there although I have 50 million other points.
The trend of limiting councils' powers and imposing unelected bureaucratic management began during the emergency period of the Civil War and led to decades of neglect or hostility towards local government from successive governments. We have to face that. We have seen the centralisation of power at the national level, the abolition of parish and town councils and reductions in the number of local elected representatives. In 2014, 80 town councils were abolished, reducing the number of elected representatives by almost 700. This significant change to the structure of local government was able to happen without a referendum because there is no explicit protection for local government in the Irish Constitution. The decision was criticised by the Council of Europe in its 2013 report on Irish local democracy. The Council of Europe report also found that Irish central government did not properly engage in consistent substantive consultation with local government about issues of regional development.
The second trend that contributes to the high degree of centralisation found in the Irish State is the cuts made to local government funding during periods of economic difficulty to reduce spending. As a result of these processes, Ireland's local government sector is small and underfunded compared with those of our EU counterparts. A 2019 trade union study found that Irish local government accounts for 8.4% of total government spending and that we have one elected official for every 148,517 people, compared with 33.1% of government spending and 43,152 people per elected representative in the Netherlands. The EU average is 23.1%. Ireland's councils are less electorally representative and economically empowered than their European counterparts. This has to change.
Councils have also been hindered by the significant reduction in staffing created by Government budget cuts. Staff levels fell by 24% between 2008 and 2013 and have never adequately recovered. In addition, the moratorium on public service recruitment and the retirement of experienced staff contributed to a reduced skill pool and hindered operations. There have been reports in the Dublin Inquirer about Dublin City Council's trouble in hiring staff and the negative impact this is having on the cleanliness of the city. There needs to be more funding and recruitment support to ensure local authorities have the manpower to deliver essential public services.
Local authorities have had their responsibilities reduced over time with some functions lost to privatisation, such as waste collection, and others moved to the national level, such as water management. Combined with the loss of the administration of driving licences and student grants, this reduces people's contact with local authorities and weakens their confidence in local government's ability to play a positive social role in their lives and communities. This is reflected in the declining rate of voter turnout in local elections. Local councillors work very hard to deliver for their communities. They are often people's first port of call when struggling with the substantial flaws in our housing, social welfare and immigration systems. Councillors play the role of social workers, legal advocates and trusted confidants with minimal support and insufficient powers. It takes a heavy toll. I know many talented and committed people who have resigned because it all became just too much for them. I have great admiration for the people serving their communities day in and day out. They really need our support to achieve effective local government reform, which would empower them to do the job their communities elected them to do.
In the small amount of time I have left, I will lend my support to the Dublin city councillors' request for legislation that would allow them to remunicipalise waste collection. It is a very important campaign for better public services and empowered local authorities. We know the work councillors do. They do phenomenal work. I know them myself, as do we all. We all meet them every day. I do not know how they keep their energy going. They do not get the support they need. It is absolutely vital that this changes and that we give them what they are demanding.
The Minister of State is welcome to the Chamber to listen to this debate. I hope he will be able to put some actions in place in respect of the issues we are all raising. As a proud former member of a town commission, before it became a town council, I am very grateful for the start that local government gave me in political life. I was not necessarily political at the time but I saw the town commission as a way to improve conditions for families in the town I live in, Newbridge, and I got a very good basic grounding in local government and how important it is to all of our citizens, no matter where they live.
I sometimes get the sense that local government is undervalued. That concerns me greatly because local government has a plethora of responsibilities ranging from housing to housing adaptation grants, libraries, which are the heartbeat of many of our communities, fire services, roads, footpaths, maintenance, retrofitting and, of course, the arts, leisure and amenities, to name just a few. To look at the people charged with carrying out these functions, the executive has a very important role but those who are elected every five years do excellent work. It is fair to say that local government has gone through a lot of change over the past few decades but one thing remains.
The local councillor is the first port of call regarding so many issues, challenges and concerns. People consult them when they need advice about how to go about resolving an issue in their own area, on a range of public services. For communities and towns around the country to achieve their full potential, they need representatives who want to make a difference. The councillors I know are certainly very focused on getting things done and working towards a positive vision for their home area, rather than just being involved in either protest or populist politics.
Councillors receive great support from the AILG, which caters for the 949 councillors, and the LAMA. I commend the work they do. The commitment I have spoken about is needed now more than ever because having strong and vocal councillors is very important, both in terms of making a case and also in holding the executive to account, which is an important function. Councillors can help families get a house or secure a home. They work on local development plans, set rates, support local businesses and ensure the necessary investment is made in roads and footpaths. These decisions play a significant role in supporting the local economy in our communities and towns and, ultimately, the country.
We will have elections next year. There are a number of issues that are important for councillors. One of these is the issue of the gratuity. There is no other profession in the country where people would get a gratuity based on a previous pay scale. This is hugely pertinent and important. We need to have a timescale for resolving this matter. As public representatives, we have all been subjected to concerns about our security. A scheme has been brought in for Oireachtas Members. That needs to be introduced for local authority members also. I am glad the AILG is contributing to the task force regarding this matter. I was pleased to work with the Minister of State's predecessor to ensure maternity leave for councillors, which is very important.
I raised my next point as a Commencement matter this week. It is to do with the financing of local government. Kildare is fifth out of 31 local authorities in terms of population. It is seventh out of 31 in terms of LPT generation. It is tenth out of 31 for its overall budget. However, it is 31st out of 31 in terms of expenditure per capita and that has been on an ongoing basis. It is not good enough. The scale of the underfunding is such that if Kildare was to come up to 30th place, we would need an extra €5.4 million. To have the same funding as the county in 28th place we would need over €26 million. Kildare is a great county, full of great communities. We need to have more funding.
I welcome the Minister of State to the House. Whenever we have a debate about local government it is hugely welcome because all of us in this House fully understand the value of local government. I had the pleasure of serving on Waterford City and County Council for 11 years before being elected to this House. I was elected in 2009 and served two terms as mayor so I like to think I have a good knowledge and understanding of all elements and processes of local government.
There is no doubt about the value that local councillors and local government bring to the lives of people who live in their locality. It is immense. The ratio of councillors to population, as outlined by Senator Black, does not fare well when we compare ourselves with our European counterparts. That is a fact. One of the reasons for this is that we had the abolition of the town councils in 2014 and the amalgamation of a number of local authorities, for example, Waterford, Limerick and Tipperary. Our ratio is certainly lower. This means that the workload for councillors is significantly higher. This has been recognised to some extent with the changes that were made by the previous Minister of State, Deputy Peter Burke, in relation to remuneration. Other Senators have raised the issue of the additional supports. These are also of the utmost importance. If we acknowledge that we have fewer councillors per head of population, then we need to provide those councillors we have with additional resources to be able to perform the role to the fullest extent.
One significant area is around the development plan process which all local councillors are undertaking, or have undertaken in the last 12 months. This is a significant body of work. The executive will often pit councillors against one another in citing things from the Office of the Planning Regulator or regulations from central government. Councillors lack a capability to scrutinise what is being said to them with good legal and planning advice, independent of what is provided by the executive. When councillors get together and tease out an element of a development plan process and put it up there in lights to be adopted, it often emerges after it has been adopted that it has been accepted by the Office of the Planning Regulator. This goes to show that some of the things that have been said by the executive to local councillors are not actually the case. They need to be empowered with independent advice to be able to carry out effective scrutiny.
The fact that the LPT is determined independent of the budgetary process is an issue I have been raising for a long time. That councillors are asked to make a decision on lowering or raising the property tax independent of the wider budgetary context is a completely false analysis. This has to be done by councillors across the country. The reason given is that the Revenue Commissioners need to be notified by a certain date so that they can have letters sent out. These processes need to be brought together because trying to ask councillors to make decisions on the LPT, which are intrinsically linked to a budgetary process that happens two months later, is not fair on them. It does not give them the opportunity to make informed decisions about the process.
I will make a pitch on a matter I have spoken to the Minister of State about previously. Given the context of the budgetary circus we have at the moment, I firmly believe we need to look at putting additional discretionary block grants in place for every local authority, particularly in relation to housing adaptation grants to enable them to be able to get to the bottom of their list. There is no reason we cannot do that now, given the surpluses, the capital expenditure and the fact that this is one-off spending. I ask the Minster of State to take that on board.
I, too, welcome the Minister of State to the House. Many of my colleagues have raised very pertinent issues about the governance of the various local authorities and the influence that councillors have. As time goes on, this influence is becoming lessened at local level. At the end of the day, the issue is not so much about the councillors but the people they represent. They are people that we represent as well. This is about the system of democracy. The more we strip away powers at local government level, the less responsibility and input the democratic system has. It is important that councillors' input is strengthened rather than eroded.
While I am on the topic of councillors, I met with some LAMA members last week with the Deputy Leader of the Seanad. There are a number of issues. The Moorhead report was welcome. It was a bit of a watershed with regard to bringing councillors up to a level of pay that is in line with the work they do. It did not mean fully paying them for the work they do but at least it was a lot better than they had. Some disappointing things were built into that, however. For example, chairs of the strategic policy committees, SPCs, are now being taxed since that. That is wrong. We would not have it in this House and it is wrong for councillors as well. We should not be taxed.
They are also now being taken off boards of higher education, which again I feel is very wrong. At the end of the day, when things go wrong at a local level and we are here in the Oireachtas, the councillors are on the ground meeting families day in, day out. They are the first point of call when something goes wrong, not just for local authority issues but for all issues across the board, including education, health and whatever it may be. That was a sad day when that happened.
Regarding the Moorhead report and retrospective pay, apparently the salary at that stage was supposed to be in line with grade 4 but councillors are not seeing increments in line with grade 4, and that needs to be corrected as well.
Gratuity for councillors is based on the old salary. I think Senator O’Loughlin already raised that point. It needs to be brought in line with the new salary.
As we know, in the day and age we are in, nobody can do without broadband and nobody more so, even since Covid, than councillors. The 20% allowance given to councillors is insufficient. No more than us, their broadband should be supplied to them. More and more meetings are done online; not just councillor meetings but other meetings throughout their electoral areas.
Moreover, their powers and say in respect of county development plans and planning matters are constantly being eroded. I think sometimes the planning regulator oversteps the mark. We cannot be undermining the representation of our councillors with local area plans, town plans and county development plans. In doing so, we are actually undermining our democracy. It is a retrograde step.
Moreover, regarding Irish Water, particularly in respect of our smaller towns and villages where development is a major issue because we are not getting to work on our treatment plants quickly enough, it will be important to look at whether there is any avenue for extra funds in this budget to ensure there is a greater injection of funds and a supply of water treatment plants across the country.
I thank all Members of the House for their contributions to the debate. I thank the Minister of State for his consideration of a security allowance to help councillors in terms of potential attacks on their homes. He is bringing an impending proposal to the Government. That new security allowance is important. As Cathaoirleach, I commend the men and women who work in local government, representing the people as public representatives. They do a fine job. All of us in this House represent them and advocate on their behalf. In this Chamber, the Minister of State will find honesty that he might not get elsewhere in respect of the plight of councillors and their need for continuing advocacy and support in the work they do.
It has been a very informed debate. I wish to respond to the points raised. I propose to give a general overview and then go through the specific points. I thank Members for their incisive and progressive contributions.
Some of my points will touch on items raised. In April, Ireland welcomed a monitoring mission from the Council of Europe’s Congress of Local and Regional Authorities, which Senator Keogan referenced. The congress delegation was here to carry out an adherence review. The charter commits signatory parties to applying basic rules guaranteeing the political, administrative and financial independence of local authorities. It lays down standards for protecting the rights of local authorities and requires states that have ratified it to comply with a number of principles. This was the first monitoring visit since 2013. My officials and I met the delegation. Its findings and recommendations are expected to be published at the plenary meeting of the congress this October. The report will likely acknowledge that there have been certain improvements since the last monitoring report, particularly as a result of the local government reforms of 2014. They will likely be critical of their perception of the centralised nature of Ireland’s system of government and constraints imposed on its financial and operational autonomy, as well as the extensive supervision of local government by central government, among other matters. The independence of local government and the vital role of local authority elected members need to be protected and defended. I believe that helping to build a broader understanding of local government and the role of local authority members in shaping the communities in which we live and overseeing the performance of our local authorities is important, particularly in the lead-up to the 2024 local elections. I informed the congress delegation that the reform of Ireland’s local government system is and has been a process of evolution.
The next most significant phase of that evolution is publication very shortly of a Bill providing for a directly elected mayor for Limerick. My role is to bring the legislation to the Cabinet and I want legislation that is fit for purpose. Senator Gavan and I know each other reasonably well, so he will appreciate that it is important to me that we get legislation that enhances local government in Limerick but, more particularly, provides for a directly elected mayor. Along with my officials, we have done a considerable body of work to enhance those powers. I have to bring the published Bill to the Cabinet to get its approval. It will then determine the date, but the election will happen. It is something I feel strongly about, like Senator Gavan does. People in Limerick voted. They are entitled to have the election held and it will be held. I want to ensure we have a body of legislation that not only enhances the role overall of local authority in Limerick, more particularly, a directly elected mayor, but ensures that we respect the role of the democratically elected councillors as well. It is finding that balance and it will happen. I will be bringing it to the Cabinet very shortly.
I will now go through the points that individual Members raised and I will deal with what seem to be the core points. Senator Paddy Burke spoke about the effectiveness of local government. There is a new code of corporate governance for local authorities, which is across Government Departments. My Department currently has a working group. We are looking to bring that out for local authorities. People are aware of the National Oversight and Audit Commission. We are looking to give it a further role in the new local government audit service.
I am keen, and it is one of my remits, to go around to local authorities and see how they are performing. However, we should not lose sight of the fact that people working throughout local government and throughout the public sector are doing their best. Can we assist in enhancing what they do? That is the question. Like every walk of life, there will be some people who are excellent and some maybe not so, however, all with a common purpose. I believe strongly that they are all doing their level best.
Senator Burke made reference to the development plan, as did almost all contributors. The Office of the Planning Regulator means there is a new role. Training is available for councillors but I will take on board what has been said. We need to see whether we can come up with a process whereby councillors are fully informed of their role, what they can do and what powers they have. Certain items have changed. One of the areas mentioned was variation to an existing plan. The relationship between the planning regulator, Mr. Cussen, and the Department is something I will certainly look at.
Senator Keogan referred to a number of areas. With regard to Part 8, we have to bring in emergency housing measures. We all accept there is a crisis in housing. Part 8 introduced a suspension for a period of time up to December 2024. It was brought in specifically with regard to funding provided to local authorities to reduce debt on sites whereby they would proceed to build on these sites with social and affordable housing. It is a mechanism to expedite matters in terms of building houses but it is only a temporary measure. It is something I feel strongly about. It would then need to revert to the local authorities. Part 8 is a huge feature for local authorities.
I am sorry there was no mention of councillors in the town centre first policy. It is something we can look at again. I have already dealt with the issues of the congress of local authorities and directly elected mayors.
With regard to the gratuity scheme, the officials are carrying out a review. I gave a commitment to the AILG and LAMA that I would do so but I want to do it in a structured way. We want to look at the scheme, see how it works and get down to the nuts and bolts. Any work that we do should be very much based on looking at the existing scheme.
Senator Keogan's points on the gratuity were well made. It is not just about the training allowance. The county development plans and local area plans are becoming a key feature with local authorities. People have made reference to powers. The structure at present is that we have the national planning framework alongside the national development plan. This feeds down to the regional authorities, which feed down into the county development plans, which feed down into local area plans. We are looking for consistency.
We are carrying out a review of the national planning framework. Senator Casey made reference to it. One of the key elements we are putting into it is housing and looking at it in the context of the national planning framework. We want an approach whereby what we are looking at nationally marries locally. It is something that I take on board.
Senator Casey made a number of points. He and Senator Cummins spoke about the local property tax. I take the point about aligning the budgetary process of local authorities with the local property tax. It is something I will follow up on and look at. Senator Casey also made reference to Irish Water and rural schemes. As people are aware, Irish Water taps into existing structures. If there is no existing structure, it is up to the local authorities. We put the funding through the local authorities. There is an announcement coming on this. The baseline review is under way. It is being finalised. I take on board the views of Members.
Deputy Casey also spoke about national planning and regional authorities. We are about to announce rural planning guidelines. He made reference to these being people's homes. I take this on board. We are trying to find a balance between good planning and a reflection of the human dimension. There should be consistency among local authorities in preplanning. Often it comes down to who is in the position and the view taken by the executive. It should be consistent. If we want a streamlined approach to this, people should be able to get access to preplanning in a reasonable fashion. We should not have inconsistencies. It is something I will take up with the local authorities.
Senator Garvey, who is no longer present, spoke about County Clare. There is an affordable serviced sites scheme. We want local authorities to develop serviced sites in rural village settings at a discount of up to €30,000 on the site below the market value. Many local authorities are slow to roll this out. I want to see them being proactive. It is something that is there.
Senator Garvey also spoke about the delivery of affordable purchase housing. This falls within the remit of the local authorities. It is not only the Land Development Agency. There is a local authority affordable purchase scheme.
If we look at affordable housing, and I would regard starter homes as a better way of looking at it, we can get it through with the first home scheme. These can be in any private estate so long as a house can be sold at below a certain price for a certain location. It qualifies for up to 20% of discount along with the 10% help to buy. Equally, the local authorities can build schemes where, depending on the density, they can give a discount of up to €100,000 per unit. We want to see the local authorities moving to do that. Affordable cost rental is not the preserve of approved housing bodies. We want the local authorities going into this area.
I am answering your questions, Senator Garvey.
That is why I came back.
One of the key features of the Croí Cónaithe scheme is that it is relatively straightforward. It provides for €50,000 for a unit built prior to 2008 that has been vacant for two years or more. The figure is €70,000 if it is derelict. It is very straightforward. With regard to the over-the-shop scheme, if a retail unit or office is downstairs and the upstairs has been vacant for more than two years, it can qualify for €50,000. It would not get the amount for a derelict site because the building is not derelict. For Croí Cónaithe 2,771 applications have been made to date, with more than 1,000 approvals. The scheme is very straightforward and easy to understand. It is done through the local authorities. Senator Garvey raised the issue of water quality. It is something of which we are very conscious.
Senator Gavan raised the issue of the directly elected mayor, which I have dealt with. My task is to bring fit-for-purpose legislation to Cabinet.
Does the Minister of State have a date?
We are in the process of finalising the legislation. I am looking to have it prior to the summer recess as quickly as possible. I cannot be more honest than that. That is my intention.
Fair enough.
Senator Gavan also spoke about social and affordable housing. I want to see more of that. He made reference to Castleconnell in Limerick. The local authority is looking at an affordable cost-rental scheme of upwards of 20 units in Castleconnell. I do not know the number of tenants in situ as that is private information. I want to see Part V applied in new estates, with 10% social housing provided. Senator Gavan's point is well made. Overall in Limerick we are looking at affordable purchase schemes going ahead in Castletroy with 25 units. I would like to see them moving quicker. There is another scheme in Mungret and another affordable cost-rental scheme in Castletroy. I want the council to progress these as quickly as possible.
Senator Hoey made reference to Moldova. I hope the directly elected mayor legislation for Limerick is the start of a process. Within this legislation every local authority that wishes to do so will be able to hold a plebiscite to have a directly elected mayor.
One of the things that may be missed in the discussion is that the margin was very low in both Waterford and Cork. The differential was only 1% or 2%. We are moving into something new in the context of Limerick. It is a great opportunity for the city and county.
A directly elected mayor is an opportunity the Government should not miss. It should embrace it with all hands and make it work. The body politic allowed vested interests outside the body politic control the previous referendum.
Fundamentally, the directly elected mayors will be underpinned by the legislation. Like everything in life, there probably will be elements in respect of which people will have questions but I am determined that we get legislation that is fit for purpose. It will be then up to the Government to decide when the election will be held. It will be held.
Senator Hoey referred to local authorities being able to digitally record meetings and provide access to them. A pilot scheme is currently being rolled out in the Department to encourage local authorities to do just that. She is aware that some local authorities have gone ahead and put in online access.
Senator Black referred to a request by Dublin city councillors in respect of municipal waste collection. I will follow up on that.
On the issues raised by Senator O'Loughlin, we are doing a review of the housing adaptation grants. A review has not taken place since 2014. We are finalising that review and will be going to the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform with a proposal on it. I agree that the AILG and LAMA do great work. I have met with them on many occasions. She made reference to the gratuity. She raised the issue of the scheme brought in to ensure the security of Oireachtas Members. We are currently finalising a proposal. The scheme is up and running for all Oireachtas Members. I gave a commitment to bring in a similar scheme for councillors. We are currently finalising a submission to the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform and that will be going in shortly. I take on board the baseline review.
Senator Cummins referred to ensuring councillors are adequately resourced. That is my aim and task as Minister of State with responsibility for that area. He spoke about the development plan process. A body of work needs to be done in that regard, to include education of councillors in respect of how it works. We need councillors. It is a new and legalistic area and councillors need to understand it. My experience is that councillors are better than anyone else at getting down to the nitty-gritty and exploring how it affects their areas. I want that to work. He referred to aligning the budgetary process and the LPT. We will certainly work on that. He made a constructive suggestion regarding consideration of capital projects within the sphere of local authorities under the surplus that is present this year in terms of once-off spending.
Senator Blaney referred to the issue of higher education boards. I cannot comment on that. It falls under another Department. He referred to the gratuity, which I have covered. He also referred to county development plans, education and Irish Water. I take those points on board. As regards the issue of councillors' pay, they get an increase under pay agreements. Increments do not apply. I will look into it.
The Cathaoirleach is a long-time advocate of local government. The points he raised were well made. He referred to the issue of a directly elected mayor. As he is aware from his native county of Cork-----
I was director of elections for the plebiscite in Cork.
-----the margin was very narrow. Our margin was very positive in the other direction. I am conscious that, whatever we bring forward, we are in a new phase and need to ensure we bring people with us. There will be a review after three years of the role. That was built into the general-----
On a point of order, the Minister of State has been comprehensive in his replies and I thank him for that. Did he refer to the issue of security and CCTV?
I did. I will mention it again.
I ask him to please mention it again, just to clarify the matter. I thank the Minister of State.
I take the point of order.
I thank the Cathaoirleach.
As the Senator is aware, as matters currently stand, councillors can claim for the installation of a security scheme under the local representation measures that are available to them. In addition, they can get a percentage of monitoring costs thereafter. The Houses of the Oireachtas Commission came forward with its own stand-alone scheme for which Deputies and Senators now qualify. That scheme is up and running. I committed at the time that we would consider putting in place a sister scheme for councillors. My officials have engaged intensively with their counterparts in the Oireachtas on the design of the Oireachtas scheme. We want to model it on that scheme. We want to finalise the precise detail of the proposal we will put forward to the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. We are in the process of doing so and that will happen quickly. There will be always slight differentials between schemes but we are modelling it on the scheme for Oireachtas Members. I hope to have it in place reasonably quickly for councillors. There is a process to finalise it. Ultimately, the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform will have to adjudicate on the proposal we put forward. It is a matter on which I feel strongly. Public representatives, whether a Deputy, Senator or councillor, all face the same public safety challenges. I know Senator Keogan's office was burned down in 2019. I have no doubt that was a harrowing experience for her and her staff. We want to put the scheme in place. It is not possible to get everything done overnight but I am conscious of the evolving situation on the ground in terms of what councillors do and more generally. We cannot have a situation where public representatives do not feel safe going about their work or in their homes. We are now designing a scheme for councillors. It will be similar to that in place for Oireachtas Members. I hope to have our submission to the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform finalised quickly. We will get the scheme up and running as quickly as possible.
I thank the Minister of State. He has always been willing to come into the House and engage in debate with us. We thank him for that. I thank Members for their contributions.
I thank the Members for their insightful contributions and look forward to continuing to work with them.
Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionraí ar 3.58 p.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ar 4.05 p.m.
Sitting suspended at 3.58 p.m. and resumed at 4.05 p.m.