Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 1 Feb 2024

Vol. 298 No. 8

Gnó an tSeanaid - Business of Seanad

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I have received notice from the following Senators that they propose to raise the following matters:

Senator Ollie Crowe - The need for the Minister for Justice to make a statement on the total number of official deportations in the last six months of 2023, arising from the refusal of international protection applications.

Senator Seán Kyne - The need for the Minister for Health to provide an update on plans for a new national positive ageing strategy.

Senator Mark Wall - The need for the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage to provide an update on the review of the housing aid and housing adaption grants as administered by each local authority.

Senator Martin Conway - The need for the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to make a statement on plans to support small shops that wish to participate in the plastic bottle return scheme.

Senator Malcolm Byrne - The need for the Minister for Justice to make a statement on plans to reform and expedite the Garda vetting process.

Senator Lynn Boylan - The need for the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage to make a statement on the rate of prosecution for wildlife crimes.

Senator Garret Ahearn - The need for the Minister for Education to make a statement on the successful application by CBS High School, Clonmel, under the additional accommodation scheme, and to outline when a decision will be made on stage 2A of the project.

Senator Rónán Mullen - The need for the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science to make a statement on the compliance requirements in the Athena Swan charter, and the need to review the evolving nature of the charter as it applies in Ireland, and the approaches to compliance being taken by third level institutions to ensure that necessary guarantees are in place that third level staff will not be discriminated against and their academic freedom preserved.

Senator John Cummins - The need for the Minister for Health to make a statement on the measures being taken to fill vacant rural GP posts such as in Lismore, County Waterford, and the assessment criteria used to allow a GMS patient transfer from a "frozen list" to an alternative GP.

Senator Tim Lombard - The need for the Minister for Health to make a statement on the timelines for the commencement of opthalmology services in the new theatres and outpatient units in South

Infirmary Victoria University Hospital, and full regional eye care services in Ballincollig, County Cork.

The matters raised by the Senators are suitable for discussion. The matters raised by Senators Ollie Crowe, Seán Kyne, Mark Wall and Martin Conway have been selected and will be taken now. The other Senators may give notice on another day of the matters that they wish to raise.

International Protection

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Joe O’Brien, to the House.

Senator Ollie Crowe

I would like to ask the Minister for Justice, in the context of confirming that six in every ten applications for international protection, IP, in Ireland are refused, what was the total number of official deportations from the State arising from such refusals in the six months up to 31 December 2023. I will leave it at that for now.

Minister of State at the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth (Deputy Joe O'Brien)

I first want to apologise to the House for my delay this morning. There was an unexpected event that I did not plan for, so I apologise to everyone for the delay that has caused.

I thank Senator Crowe for raising this matter, which I am taking on behalf of the Minister for Justice, Deputy McEntee. As the Senator will be aware, the international protection system is currently undergoing a significant modernisation programme to ensure it is agile, robust and fully resourced in order to meet demand. Investments to date have significantly improved processing times, with a doubling of decisions made in 2023 from the year before.

Over the course of 2024, it is the aim of the Minister, Deputy McEntee, to even further increase capacity and processing times. This is all with the aim of ensuring that those who are seeking international protection can have their application assessed as quickly as possible. It is important to note that every person has the right to come here and seek international protection. Once a person's application has been assessed, however, those who are found not to have a legal right to remain in this country will be informed that they must remove themselves from the State. In this scenario, the individual’s case to remain in the State will have been considered in great detail.

In the final months of 2023, a total of 274 deportation orders were signed for persons who had unsuccessful applications for international protection. Some 26 people who were refused international protection were deported. Enforced deportations are used as a matter of last resort, where the person concerned has not removed themselves or engaged with the Department's voluntary return programme. It is the case that many individuals who were subject to deportation orders have left the State without notifying the relevant authorities. The Garda National Immigration Bureau, GNIB, has reviewed a large sample of the cases that were subject to deportation orders. Their inquiries suggest that a very significant number of these individuals have left the State.

The Department of Justice is also looking at new processes to further strengthen the system and ensure those who have not been successful in their applications for international protection are assisted to leave the State where required. It is the intention of the Minister, Deputy McEntee, that these new processes will become available to the State as soon as possible.

Senator Ollie Crowe

I thank the Minister of State for his detailed response. To me, the figures really do not seem to be adding up at first glance. The Minister stated that the Garda National Immigration Bureau “has reviewed a large sample of the cases that were subject to deportation orders. Their inquiries suggest a very significant number of these individuals have left the State.”. Could we get any further details on that? Certainly, 26 people in the space of six months does not seem to add up in relation to the sample.

Deputy Joe O'Brien

The Department has made significant investment in staff, technology and re-engineering processes at the IPO and that investment is delivering. Over the course of the past year, we tripled the number of monthly decisions for processing times for applicants from safe countries, reduced under ten weeks, with numbers arriving from them dropping considerably, too.

To my own knowledge, when people exhaust the international protection process, they will eventually get to a stage where they have no entitlement to any State supports. Very often, they will leave in that case. They will have no access to housing, social welfare, employment or anything like that. When they get what is called a “section 3 letter”, which is a notification of intention to deport, they very often will know that the writing is on the wall, and they will then leave at that stage. I know that from my own professional experience and background as well. It is only ever a small proportion of those who exhaust the system and end up getting deportation orders, which are very expensive. In terms of the rates of deportation orders, that is an average of what we have had in recent years. I understand it is on the rise.

Health Promotion

Senator Seán Kyne

I first want to thank the Cathaoirleach’s office for choosing this Commencement matter this morning. I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Joe O'Brien, to the Chamber. As he is aware, this is the UN Decade of Healthy Ageing 2021-2030, where the focus is on the second half of life. The UN Decade of Healthy Ageing is a global collaboration, bringing together governments, civil society, international agencies, professional academia, the media and the private sector for ten years of concerted and collaborative action to foster longer and healthier lives. It has four areas: age-friendly environment, including better places in which to grow, live, work, play and age; combating ageism, which involves tackling stereotyping, prejudice and discrimination towards people on the basis of age; integrated care, because older people require a comprehensive set of services to prevent slow or reverse declines in their physical and mental capacity; and long-term care, involving access to good quality long-term care for those who need it.

The number of people aged 65 and over is estimated to have risen by more than 40% between 2013 and 2023, from 569,000 persons to 806,000. It is expected to double again in this country by 2051, with an almost 80% increase the number of people aged over 70 and older holding full driver's licences between 2012 and 2022 from 205,000 to 366,000. The number of marriages registered by people aged 60 and over has more than doubled between 2012 and 2022 from 505 to 1,028. Also, for 5% of households that were owner-occupied with a loan or mortgage, the owner was a person aged 65 or over. More than 113,000 people aged 65 and over were in employment in the third quarter of 2023, working for an average 31.1 hours per week. Some of these were unfortunately by necessity but many were of course by choice.

This is all CSO data. It is indicative of the increasing number of people aged over 65 who hopefully will have long, healthy lives left ahead of them and who have a lot to contribute to society and to their communities. The positive ageing strategy expired in 2018 and I think it is time that the Department evaluates that and aims to progress a new positive ageing strategy. A number of changes have taken place since the original strategy was enacted. Of course, the data I have given shows the changes in numbers and longer working lives. There is a greater focus year on year on healthy living, and, for example, there are the Men's Sheds. They were in their infancy in 2013 but are now widespread across the country, and, indeed, women's sheds are coming through as well. They play such an important role in both rural and urban communities to give a focus and an outlet for people. These are not always and do not have to be older people, but in the Men’s Sheds that I see and engage with, they are predominately older people.

I believe a new all-encompassing strategy for this growing cohort of people is important. I believe this should be an ongoing strategy. The name of the old strategy was “positive ageing”. There is only one alternative to getting older and it is not too great. It is therefore important that people who get older have something to look forward to. Some of them may not always have a family around them, so they need to get involved in the community. We need to ensure that they can live their best lives and can continue to contribute to the society in which they are living for their own sake and for their communities’ sake as well.

Deputy Joe O'Brien

I thank the Senator for raising this genuinely very important issue. The Government is committed to supporting positive ageing across the life course, as well as ensuring that older people can continue to live independently in their homes and communities for as long as possible. This commitment is enshrined in the national positive ageing strategy, which provides a blueprint for promoting older people’s engagement in economic, social, cultural and community life and fostering intergenerational solidarity. Recognising the need for a whole-of-society approach to supporting positive ageing, the strategy’s implementation is a whole-of-government endeavour. This has been advanced through a wide range of initiatives developed and delivered in partnership with the community and voluntary sector.

Ten years on from the publication of the strategy, we have taken great strides in making Ireland a great place to grow old. This achievement was recognised in 2019 when the World Health Organization formally designated Ireland the first age-friendly country in the world. This progress is testimony to the work of a host of organisations to which the Department of Health provides funding, including Age Friendly Ireland, Age Action, Age and Opportunity and Active Retirement Ireland, to name a few. More broadly, at Government level, positive ageing has been mainstreamed through a range of strategies, including the national volunteering strategy, the national sustainable mobility policy and Pathways to Work.

In the Department of Health, key aims of the ongoing Sláintecare reform of our health and social care system include the following: enabling people with care needs to continue to live independently for as long as possible; the reorientation of the provision of care away from acute hospitals and towards primary and community care; and the realignment of hospital and community-based care to ensure that care is provided close to people’s homes. Many of the services currently funded by the HSE for older people are vital to achieving these aims, including home support, day care and meals-on-wheels. The Government’s total investment in older persons’ services in 2024 will be €2.6 billion, over €158 million more than in 2023.

Despite our progress to date across government in supporting positive ageing, we recognise the challenges we will face in a range of areas in the coming years as our population ages. It is within this context that we are currently in the process of establishing an independent commission on care for older people. The purpose of the commission will be to examine the health and social care services and supports provided for older people and to make recommendations for their strategic development. Subsequently, a cross-departmental group will be established under the commission to consider whether the supports for positive ageing across the life course are fit for purpose and to develop a costed implementation plan for options to optimise these supports.

On 14 December 2023, the Minister for Health and the Minister of State with responsibility for mental health and older people announced the appointment of Professor Alan Barrett, CEO of the ESRI, as the chairman of the commission. In the coming weeks the Minister and Minister of State will proceed to appoint the other members of the commission, who will also be independent experts.

Senator Seán Kyne

I thank the Minister for the comprehensive response on behalf of the Minister of State, Deputy Mary Butler. I welcome the establishment of the commission on care of the older person and the appointment of Professor Alan Barrett. This is a welcome initiative that, hopefully, can lead to a new positive ageing strategy. As I said, this is a very important cohort. Growing older is not what it once was. Like any age group, the senior population has a diverse mix of people, with some married and some single, some with children and others without, some happy to stay working and some happy to retire, some in very good health and others less so and in need of care, and, as we discussed yesterday during Private Members’ business, some in old age who are continuing to care for their disabled adult children or for their husband or wife, and they have challenges as well.

I welcome the response and the fact this is very much on the agenda for the Government. I commend the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, on her endeavours in this regard.

Deputy Joe O'Brien

I acknowledge that tremendous work is being done across the country to ensure communities are fully inclusive of our older citizens. The older people’s councils that have been established in every local authority by Age Friendly Ireland to ensure that older people have a voice in local decision-making, the Senior Citizens Parliament and the national network of Active Retirement Ireland associations number among the wealth of initiatives that ensure older people enjoy fulfilling lives in their later years. I thank the Senator for mentioning the men's and women's sheds, of which the Department of Rural and Community Development is a strong supporter.

I take this opportunity to again raise awareness of our seniors alert scheme, which is also an option for people. I ask people to spread the word about the seniors alert scheme when they have the opportunity.

Acting Chairperson (Senator Martin Conway)

I thank Senator Kyne for raising what is a very important issue and thank the Minister of State for taking the time to attend, which is appreciated.

Housing Schemes

Senator Mark Wall

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Malcolm Noonan, to the House for what is a very important Commencement matter. This is the third time since I was elected to this House that I have raised this matter. We discussed this on the last day the Minister of State was here and he has heard of similar experiences in his own offices. Not a day goes by but I deal with an application for, or a query about, a housing aid or housing adaptation grant. As I have said, and will put on record again, these are very worthwhile grants that can change people's lives in so many ways. More importantly, as I have said, they are grants that can keep people from hospital beds and, as everyone wants, allow them to stay in their own homes.

The problem is that the limits remain at €30,000 for the housing adaptation grant and €8,000 for the housing aid grant. Basically, given the building quotes that are coming in, people and their families simply cannot afford the shortfall and a lot of this work is not happening at the moment. The last time we spoke, the Minister of State said he has had similar experiences coming through his own offices. I will give the example of one of the cases I am dealing with at the moment. A lady in Newbridge, County Kildare, has been offered a grant of €30,000 but the cheapest quote she can get is €58,000. There is no way that she or her family can fund the balance, and that is the cheapest quote she has had, with many builders quoting €60,000 to €70,000, and €75,000 the highest quote that she has got. She and her family have looked everywhere to try to fund this life-changing grant application but, unfortunately, they have not been able to come up with the money. It is such vulnerable people that I am talking about today.

The housing aid grant is also a great grant in all respects but, again, quotes are coming in for €12,000 to €14,000, and people are simply not able to afford the balance in order to make the changes to a room or bathroom or put in windows that will make their house more secure. I want to put on record, as I have always done on previous Commencement matters, that the staff who deal daily with these queries and applications go above and beyond. Unfortunately, when I deal with them now, I find there are backlogs because they are inundated with queries about this grant. Many of the local authorities I have spoken to are changing or adapting their rules to try to accommodate this grant, and my own local authority in Kildare is one of those. I have spoken to staff extensively in regard to this grant. To quote directly from an Oireachtas meeting and subsequent correspondence I have had with them, I am told they are doing this to deal with an ageing population and that in order to address the increase in applications for these grants, it is necessary to prioritise certain categories of work. To take the windows grant as an example, they are now looking to prioritise single-glazed windows or timber-frame windows over other applications.

We are in the middle of an economic crisis but, more importantly, a climate crisis where we are talking about retrofitting, as the Minister of State, more than anyone else, will know. I engaged with the SEAI at a meeting of the Oireachtas social protection committee and I was told that it does not do a windows grant. Therefore, this is the only grant people can apply for but it has not been changed for many years. Unfortunately, people are going into hospital because they cannot use the adaptation grant to stay in their own homes.

I hope the Minister of State will bring good news today. I have raised this a number of times. I am told there is a report and I look forward to some good news today, on St. Brigid’s Day.

Acting Chairperson (Senator Martin Conway)

Before I bring in the Minister of State, I know the experience the Senator is having is certainly reflected in County Clare and, no doubt, in every other local authority area in the country.

The figures for this scheme have not increased for years. I look forward to a positive response from the Minister of State.

Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage (Deputy Malcolm Noonan)

Lá Fhéile Bríde shona daoibh go léir.

I thank the Senator for bringing this matter to the House. We have discussed it before and he has raised it on a number of occasions. As the Acting Chairperson has said, it is something that all of our constituency offices are dealing with. There is no doubt the grant is no longer fit for purpose. Given the rising costs of labour and materials, it would certainly not complete the works. It may have done in the past when it was introduced, but it is certainly not meeting all of the needs of the people at the minute.

My Department provides funding to local authorities under the suite of housing adaptation grants for older people and people with a disability to assist people in private houses to make their accommodation more suitable for their needs. These grants are available to people with an enduring physical, sensory, mental health or intellectual disability, and to older people who experience mobility issues or require essential repairs to their home so that can continue to live independently at home. We know people are living longer and it is Government policy to try to keep people living at home for as long as they can.

The grants are 80% funded by the Department, together with a 20% matching contribution from the resources of the local authority. The schemes are means tested and operate on a sliding scale, with the highest percentage grants available to those with the lowest incomes and vice versa. The detailed administration of these schemes, including assessment, approval, prioritisation and apportionment between the three schemes, is the responsibility of each local authority. I join the Senator in commending local authority staff across the country who put in exceptional work dealing with these grant applications.

In 2023, an Exchequer provision of more than €72 million in funding, which included a supplementary Exchequer provision of €6 million, was made available to facilitate the payment of more than 13,000 grants, which compares favourably with the target of more than 12,300 grants. The Exchequer funding available for these grants in 2024 is €74.5 million, or in excess of €93 million when the local authority contribution is included, continuing the year-on-year increases since 2014. Therefore, the capital allocation for the grant has been increasing.

Housing for All committed to undertaking a review of the range of housing grants available to assist in meeting specific housing needs for both our ageing population and people with a disability. A report on the review of the housing adaptation grants for older people and people with a disability has been prepared by the Department, and among the areas which the review considered are the income thresholds and the grant limits.

My Department is engaging with the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform on the recommendations in the review report. The objective of this engagement is to deliver on the emerging recommendations and ensure continued enhancement of this successful grant scheme with a view to bringing forward amendments to the relevant regulations governing the schemes. I hope that gives some comfort to the Senator. Certainly, the recommendations will be coming forward, and out of that there will be amendments to the regulations governing the scheme, which we would all welcome.

I note the case study the Senator highlighted. The rising cost of labour and materials presents challenges for local authority staff dealing with them. Given our ageing population, agencies and authorities need to ensure people who are getting older and people with disabilities can live independently and comfortably in their own homes. The optimum for all people in this category should be to have a comfortable and good quality life, living in their homes for as long as they can.

Senator Mark Wall

I thank the Minister of State for the reply but, unfortunately, it is a bit of déjà vu because the last time we spoke, this report was with Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform for discussion on changes to be brought forward. At the same time, as the Minister of State said, people are not being allowed to live independently in their homes, which this grant would give them the opportunity to do. Will he go back to the Department and confirm a timeframe for those changes? Maybe he can tell me today.

The income threshold limits need to change to keep pace with building inflation. I welcome the Government's allocation of €74 million. This is a life-changing grant. Everybody in this House, across all parties and none, will support that. However, we need to see the changes quickly. We need to see them for that lady in Newbridge and the many others I deal with every day. I ask the Minister of State to put a timeframe on that because the responses I got previously stated he was in discussions with Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. However, people want to see new income thresholds and the chance to live independently in their own homes.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

I appreciate the Senator's frustration. I know I have come back in here a few times with pretty much the same stock answer. He should rest assured we are working on it and we hope to have an outcome from that process very soon with a revised set of thresholds. As I mentioned, the trajectory of the capital allocations increasing year on year is commensurate with increased demand. Given that our population is ageing and people are living longer, those demands will increase in the future. It is important we work together to try to ensure the grant is fit for purpose and meets the needs of families so they can feel confident they can afford to get the works carried out. I will come back with a more specific timeline through our Department.

Acting Chairperson (Senator Martin Conway)

I thank the Minister of State for giving his time here this morning. It is much appreciated.

Waste Management

Acting Chairperson (Senator Mark Wall)

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Richmond, to the House.

Senator Martin Conway

The Minister of State, Deputy Richmond, is very welcome to the House. Today is a landmark day for recycling in this country. The deposit return scheme for plastic bottles and cans is very welcome. It has worked in many other countries and should result in the recycling of cans and bottles in this country going from 60% or 65% up to 90% and maybe even higher, as has been achieved in the countries that have implemented this type of scheme. There are a couple of issues with the scheme I want to highlight today. I want to make it very clear that I welcome the scheme. I support it and I encourage people to participate in the scheme. As we have proven before with the plastic bag levy, we can achieve great results when we all work together. It is from that perspective that I am speaking today.

I would like to see two things happen with the scheme. First, there should be community-based return machines facilitated by the local authorities in every town and village in the country to ensure the footfall is not being directed to the big multiples and away from the high street and the small shops. Second, there should be a grant available so that small shops, newsagents, discount stores and so on can purchase these machines and offer the same service to their customers as is available with the multiples. These machines cost €30,000 to €40,000. There is no way small shops can afford that type of investment given the challenges the retail sector is facing at the moment. I know the Minister of State is very aware of the challenges retailers are facing because he works with them every day of the week in his capacity as Minister of State with responsibility for small business. I hope the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment is examining this to try to create equality between small shops and the multiples.

We want to avoid unintended consequences from this scheme. We do not want this scheme to create the unintended consequence of directing people into the forecourts of the big multiples at the expense of the small shopkeepers. The scheme is great but it needs to be available to small retailers. I look forward to hearing good news from the Minister of State in this regard.

Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Deputy Neale Richmond)

I am extremely grateful to Senator Conway for raising this issue. He is absolutely right in saying that today is a great day. There is not a Member of these Houses who has not been calling for a proper deposit return scheme for years.

It has been the subject of motions at every political party's conferences, Ard-Fheiseanna and youth conferences for years. It seemed like a common-sense thing but it sadly took too long to bring in. However, it is in now. Today is a good day. It is a good day for the environment and for the budding entrepreneurs who might do a bit of litter picking in their communities.

As Senator Conway has rightly said, this issue has been a topic of discussion at the retail forum, which I chair, a number of times. We had Re-Turn attend to provide an overview of the deposit return scheme process and to answer queries from members, including retail representative bodies of all sizes. While it is great to see that 84% of Irish people are positive about the scheme, we need to help retailers meet these costs. Supports from Re-Turn are in place for small businesses in the form of reduced or waived fees, financial assistance and exemptions. All retailers receive a handling fee for each container they take back. Handling fees are intended to offset the cost of collection, infrastructure, retail floor space, staff and security. In addition to handling fees, several other supports from Re-Turn are in place to assist small retailers, including exemptions from takeback services and financial support for the installation of a reverse vending machine.

After engagement with retailers on this matter, my Department made a case, as part of our budget submission last year, to have reverse vending machines included in the advance capital allowance scheme as we believed this would make a great difference in helping retailers take part in the scheme. It is understood that this was not possible this year due to the scheme not meeting the definition of energy efficiency required to qualify for the EEE scheme. I underline that this is extremely disappointing to me, to my ministerial colleagues in the Department, to the Senator himself and to the retailers we are all speaking on behalf of. Any further legislative change would need to be legislated for through budget 2025 and the finance Bill 2024. We are working on this consistently. My officials are engaging with both the Department of Finance and the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications to advance it. We want to help retailers avail of this scheme for their own sake as well as for the sake of their customers. Now that we have this brilliant scheme up and running, we can see how well it will work. It is important to see it spread out to small retailers, the likes of which Senator Conway was once upon a time.

Senator Martin Conway

I thank the Minister of State very much. I know that he is doing his best but there has to be a way around this. It is disappointing that it was not considered appropriate given the nature of the scheme. It seems somewhat illogical. We need to allow small shopkeepers, whether individually or as a number on a street coming together, to provide these machines. The figure of 18,000 machines is not enough. It has to be convenient, easy and fair. It is not fair on small shopkeepers at the moment. The multiples have the opportunity to increase their footfall as a result of people coming to use the reverse vending machines to dispose of their bottles. I know the Minister of State believes in equity and fairness and that he very much supports small businesses. I sincerely hope that his engagement with the Department of Finance bears fruit and that we will see some tangible and practical efforts made to ensure that small shops can avail of these machines as well as the big retailers.

Deputy Neale Richmond

I really appreciate that. I apologise to Senator Conway that I forgot to address the point he made on community systems and local authorities in my initial response. It is a fantastic idea. I will take it to the Minister of State with responsibility for local government, Deputy Kieran O'Donnell. I am more than happy to engage with community groups or local authorities around the country to fill the gaps because, at the end of the day, we will need a lot more than 18,000 return vending machines. In the case of the advance capital allowance, I assure the Senator that we will continue to engage with the Department of Finance with a view to having it included in this year's finance Bill. Any assistance that the Senator or this House could provide in that regard would be really appreciated. There are already some supports for smaller retailers but I appreciate that some of them are not sufficient and that we need more. If we are to be serious about this, and we are deadly serious about this, we need to take every opportunity possible to spread the scheme out after we get it fully operational.

Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionraí ar 10.14 a.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ar 10.30 a.m.

Sitting suspended at 10.14 a.m. and resumed at 10.30 a.m.