Social Welfare and Civil Law (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2023: Second Stage (Resumed)

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Senator Mark Wall

I wish to be associated with the welcome to our distinguished visitors.

Given the good news the Minister has brought forward in respect of those in full-time education up to the age of 18, I will again raise the issue of foster carers. I know the Minister announced in the budget an additional payment of €75 for foster carers, €25 of which came into place from 1 January. Given the good news in respect of those in full-time education and child benefit, I ask the Minister to look at the additional €50 payment which was to happen in November. If she could bring that forward too, it would be useful and beneficial to all those who are foster caring and doing such great work for us in this country. The Minister should look to bring forward that payment because we need as many foster carers as possible in the country, as the Minister knows as well as I.

I will raise one other issue that relates to those foster carers who are in receipt of a one-parent family allowance. When the child reaches the age at which that payment finishes, the foster parents are under pressure with work activation schemes because they have to get the jobseeker's payment. I ask the Minister to consider an exemption for those foster carers at that point. I have come across a number of cases in recent weeks and months in this regard. I ask the Minister to consider the situation. It looks as if the pressure we are putting on foster carers is causing a number of them to reconsider their position as foster carers and an exemption would allow them to continue as foster carers and to continue doing the good work they are doing.

The final issue on foster carers relates to pensions. Unfortunately, the Minister was not with us on the social protection Bill. When I raised the issue of pensions for foster carers with the Minister of State, he indicated that in certain circumstances and scenarios, some foster carers would qualify for the 20-year carer's rule. The eligibility of foster carers and their ability to apply for a pension has been brought up with me time and again by the Irish Foster Care Association. The Minister and I discussed the matter previously and she said she would look it and I asked her to look at it again. Given the great work foster carers do within our communities, we need to reconsider the situation. We need to go beyond the scenario suggested by the Minister of State. We need to consider a pension for foster carers in general in recognition of the great work they do.

I also bring up an issue that has been raised by a colleague. It relates to my friend, Ms Maggie Owens, a great advocate for Irish Sign Language, ISL. She contacted me about the voucher scheme. I know there was a meeting with the Minister today. The Minister brought in the scheme, which was great, but it has been put on hold, which has caused torment in the Irish deaf community. It does so much work for the whole social outlook of the Irish deaf community. I ask the Minister to look at this issue again and give us an update as to where it is and why it was put on hold. At the end of the day, those people in that community benefited greatly from the scheme and would do so again. I have seen them at events I have attended, as have other Members of the House, and when they have an interpreter, it enhances the benefit they get from their social outlets. Perhaps the Minister would comment on that issue.

In respect of the Bill before us, I look forward to working with the Minister as it progresses through the House.

Senator Aisling Dolan

I welcome the Minister to the House. The point I take home is that when we look at the Pobal deprivation index, over and over again the group that are the most vulnerable is single mothers. That has been the case over and over again when one reviews any of the statistics and looks at the data. What the Minister is bringing forward in this Bill is going to make a considerable change. She said it is going to impact more than 16,000 single parents at a cost of €10 million to the Exchequer. This is going to support families because the single-parent family allowance will not be means tested. The lack of a means test will also mean other social benefits.

The Minister also mentioned the removal of the requirement on the Department of Social Protection to see if some income was coming from the former partner or parent. That is going to relieve a lot of stress on these families. In my area, I know of cases of families where there has been a difficult marriage or partnership break-up. The Minister spoke about the issue in connection with the credit union. Families and mothers are left struggling to handle the cost of living and of children going to school. We are making changes. I know the Department is also looking at hot school meals and so on. These changes relieve the pressure and stress on parents, and I acknowledge that. It is something we have targeted. Cost-of-living supports benefit people. When we look at cost-of-living supports, we see that so many of them are benefiting everyone in our society. These changes, however, are really going to target the people who are most affected, those being single parents and single mothers, in particular. I acknowledge the efforts of the Minister and the advisory committee.

This is an opportunity for the Taoiseach, the Cabinet and the Government to look at child poverty.

The child payment is for the child. The payment that will come for the mother or the father will be their payment directly. I want to acknowledge the work that has been done here. I know that we will see further developments around this as well. I am really pleased that this is targeting and going to improve the situation for people who are the most vulnerable when it comes to poverty in Ireland.

Senator Victor Boyhan

I welcome the Minister. I want to say well done to her for getting her message across in a very tight timeframe. The other day I was in Leinster Marts in Kilcullen. They are looking for an auctioneer and I thought the Minister would fit the bill quite well. I say again well done. The Minister had a lot to contend with.

I will start with the very positive points and the last point the Minister raised. This morning our Cabinet approved the extension of the child benefit payment from 1 May to 18-year-olds and those who are in full-time education or have a disability. I think this is really exceptional and positive. It is great that the Minister could bring this forward. In a press release this afternoon, there was some suggestion that IT systems had allowed that to be brought forward earlier because it was processed quickly. However, let us forget about that; the Minister is committed to it. She has done an exceptional job in the Department of Social Protection.

The benefits, as we have all said and the Minister has set out, will go to some 60,000 people. Some 6,000 families with children aged 18 years and older will benefit. We know that the child benefit currently being paid is €140 per child, per month. Education is a challenge, as is the cost of living. Bringing up children or teenagers or young people is a challenge. I know the Minister is committed to supporting everyone to develop to their full potential and capabilities. That is about supporting people and giving them the opportunities and the necessary supports. I want to thank the Minister for this.

I note that the Minister has gone into great detail about the three Parts of the Bill. She set out that very well. I do not particularly have a problem with the generality of this Bill. She might just touch on the establishment of the child maintenance agency, which was one of the recommendations. I am not sure if the Government is accepting that recommendation. The Government has taken on board the recommendations of the child maintenance review group. The Minister has set them out, and that is particularly good.

I want to turn to one particular issue of concern. This is the issue of the beneficiaries of the temporary protection. To bring us in line with other jurisdictions, the proposal is that the beneficiaries would receive €38.80 per week. This is about protection. I unashamedly believe in and support the Government in every effort it makes on the céad míle fáilte, one hundred thousand welcomes. We need to stand in solidarity with one another and we need to support people who come to our shores seeking protection. They are not chancers or scammers or a whole load of other things which I will not repeat in this room that so many people wish to say. I have had family members for generations who went to Manchester, Birmingham, New York and Boston with not a bean in their pockets. They were faced with "No blacks, no dogs, no Irish". Hopefully we are going to receive people into our country in an open-hearted and open-spirited way. Quite frankly, €38.80 per week is just over €5 per day for vulnerable people. I am not comfortable with that. I simply cannot stand here and say that it is equitable, fair, just, kind, humanitarian, Christian, good or positive. It simply is not. I know we have difficulties with resources so I will park it on this point. I am not comfortable with it. I do not think it is good enough. It does not fulfil our ambition, courage, solidarity or humanity for people in need. I believe it needs to be changed. Let us be an example to other countries in Europe. Let us do better than everyone else. We should not bring ourselves down to be with other people, but show our solidarity, love and respect and be human. To give people just over €5 per day is not acceptable. We would not give it to our grandchildren as a treat. I am uncomfortable with giving this amount. I know the Minister has to work within the restraints and the resources and Government policy. I finish on this point. Leo Varadkar has a track record of talking about offering the hand of friendship and help and being caring. We need to be courageous and revisit this. We need to be brave enough to stand in solidarity with one another and advocate for a better deal than this for people who are coming to our shores for safety and for protection.

Minister for Social Protection (Deputy Heather Humphreys)

I thank Senators Burke, Keogan, Ardagh, Wall, Boyhan and Dolan for their contributions. I am very pleased to bring forward this legislation. The Senators have raised a number of issues and I will go straight to dealing with them.

I said earlier that a new weekly payment of €38.80 per adult and €29.80 per child is being introduced for the beneficiaries of the temporary protection directive. This will be administered by my Department. These changes are designed to ensure the sustainability of our system. They will also align us more closely with other EU member states. We will of course continue to meet our obligations under the temporary protection directive. If a beneficiary of temporary protection is not resident in a designated accommodation centre, he or she will be eligible for social assistance payments on the same basis as Irish citizens. I think that is fair enough. It is important to note also that beneficiaries of temporary protection, regardless of whether they are resident in a designated centre, will continue to have full access to the labour market. The payment is in lieu of a social welfare payment and will be made to all residents in designated accommodation centres. The people who come here will have access to State accommodation. They will also have access to the child benefit payment. When a person is getting this payment, this new regulation means it will not be assessed against their income. They will be allowed to get the maintenance for the child and it will not be assessed for social welfare purposes.

They will also be eligible for additional needs payments and urgent needs payments in circumstances where they meet the eligibility criteria for these. Beneficiaries receiving the weekly allowance will be entitled to work. The public employment services will engage with them in this regard. What we are doing here is bringing us further in line with the other EU countries.

Senator Sharon Keogan

On a point of order. Will the Minister confirm that the people who are currently-----

An Cathaoirleach

That is not a point of order. What is your point of order based on?

Senator Sharon Keogan

It is based on what the Minister has just stated. I just wanted clarification on something. Is that okay? Can I get clarification?

An Cathaoirleach

No, you cannot get clarification because that is not a point of order.

Senator Sharon Keogan

Okay, that is fine.

Deputy Heather Humphreys

The issue of liable relatives was raised. These changes will simplify the system for the people involved. It does not negate their responsibility as parents to provide for their children, but it means we will not need to have the liable relatives cases where one parent was receiving full State assistance - the one-parent family payment or whatever - and the State felt obliged to try to get that money back from the other parent. Given that we are paying out €614 million in that type of assistance and we are only pulling back €400,000, it seemed to be a rather futile exercise. It was torturing everybody so we decided it was best to remove it.

It was also mentioned about establishing a child maintenance agency. The Minister for Justice, Deputy McEntee, has announced significant reforms to make the family courts systems more accessible and family friendly. We need to see how those reforms bed in. As part of the reforms, the Department of Justice undertook a review of enforcement of child maintenance orders. The trick here is to enforce these orders. If people have to pay them, they need to just get on with it and pay them. The Minister published a report which contains 26 recommendations, including measures that look at how we can strengthen enforcement of child maintenance payments via attachment orders.

I would love to see attachment orders going all the way. It is such a waste of everybody's time going in and out of court trying to get maintenance payments. If there is a good strong attachment order and it is deducted at source, that is the way to go. It does take a bit of work and it is not quite as simple perhaps as it sounds, but I know that the Minister, Deputy McEntee, will progress as quickly as possible these proposals in the 26 recommendations that have been announced.

Senator Wall mentioned about the foster carers getting a State pension. Matters relating to foster caring and the associated payment are the responsibility of the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth and Tusla. The Government acknowledges the important role carers, including foster carers, play and we are fully committed to supporting them in that role. The current State pension system provides measures, including PRSI credits, homemaking disregards and home caring periods to recognise caring periods of up to 20 years outside of paid employment and the calculation of a payment rate. Foster carers are entitled to the benefits of the homemakers scheme or home caring periods and may be entitled to long-term carer's contributions when they meet the criteria and the 20-year threshold. Officials in the Department have recently met with foster carer representatives and have provided detailed explanations on the State pension system and related contributions and the options open to them.

There was a question about the Irish Sign Language scheme and I know it is not part of this Bill. I was not aware of this until late last week, but my officials today met with representatives from the Citizens Information Board and the Irish deaf community. I have not heard of the outcome of the meeting, it could still be going on, and I have not been talking to these officials, but I will be getting a report on it. I supported them very much in these voucher schemes. I met with them last year, but it is important that when it comes to public money, we have full transparency and accountability. I hope there is a solution here and I am certainly working towards it.

Sitting suspended at 5.52 p.m. and resumed at 6.30 p.m.

Seanad Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 13 Feb 2024