Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 6 Mar 2024

Nithe i dtosach suíonna - Commencement Matters

Fire Service

Senator Marie Sherlock

I thank the Minister of State for coming to the House. Last weekend marked the 125th anniversary of Dublin Fire Brigade's dual ambulance and fire emergency response service. The fire brigade obviously plays a crucial role in keeping the people of this city and county safe and I pay tribute to the immense professionalism, commitment and care that firefighters give to their work every day of the week.

It is important that we acknowledge there has been very significant progress with regard to training standards and facilities in recent decades. We also must acknowledge there are very significant and real concerns among firefighters at this point about staffing shortfalls, the condition and age of the vehicles they have to work with and, most significantly, the failure to progress plans in this city to undertake pre-fire intelligence surveys of buildings across the city. The staffing concerns are such that over the past three months, there were 27 days when fire trucks could not have been deployed if they had been needed because right now, firefighters are facing shortfalls of up to 20 staff per day across the fire stations in Dublin city and county. We expect we will see the retirement of almost one third of firefighters in the next two years. There is a very serious recruitment issue.

While the responsibility is, first and foremost, with Dublin City Council to ensure there is a sufficient number of firefighters, I have to say to the Minister of State that the buck also stops with him and his Department. In ensuring a smooth recruitment process, it falls to the Public Appointments Service to be able to undertake the recruitment competitions. We saw two years ago and are seeing now again that there are systemic and capacity issues with the Public Appointments Service as it tries to take on those competitions. Those issues are leading to delays and what happened two years ago, which was an outsourcing of that competition. Frankly, it is not good enough. We have a serious recruitment issue but what I really want to ask the Minister of State is what work is being done by the Department to advance the undertaking of pre-fire intelligence surveys here in Dublin and in the main urban centres across this country.

It is now five years since the fire in the Metro Hotel in Ballymun. Dublin Fire Brigade faced challenges on that occasion because it was a high-rise building and there was a lack of information about water points and the structure of the building. A commitment arose from that fire to the effect that an organisational intelligence unit would be established within Dublin Fire Brigade to map out the city, identify its water points and have a basic structural outline of the buildings in the city so that if a fire breaks out, Dublin Fire Brigade can respond in the most time efficient manner possible. Frustratingly, we have seen glacial progress on these long-promised fire intelligence surveys in the city. I understand that only approximately 12,000 buildings have been surveyed to date when there is a total of approximately 45,000 buildings across the city that need to be surveyed. This really matters. It matters so we can have efficient response times and greater safety for the public. It also means greater safety for the firefighters themselves. They are really anxious because while they have had these promises for a number of years, they have not seen any progress. This is a very serious issue for the city.

I do not believe it should be just left up to Dublin City Council and Dublin Fire Brigade to push this process. It also very much needs to be driven by the Department. It is not just about Dublin but all of the country. It is about ensuring that fire services in the Republic of Ireland match what is available in the North, which has a pre-fire intelligence service so that if a fire breaks out, they are able to type into the technology within the truck and see exactly what the structure of the building is. That is available in the North, in London and in most other European cities, yet it is not available here. I look forward to the response of the Minister of State.

Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage (Deputy Malcolm Noonan)

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Seanadóir as ucht an cheist seo a ardú. The provision of a fire service in its functional area, including the establishment and maintenance of a fire brigade, the assessment of fire cover needs and the provision of fire station premises, is a statutory function of individual fire authorities under the Fire Services Acts 1981 and 2003. The Department supports fire authorities by setting general policy, providing the legislative framework, running a central training programme, issuing guidance on operational and other related matters and providing capital funding for priority infrastructural projects.

In June 2017, a devastating fire claimed the lives of 72 people at Grenfell Tower in north Kensington, London, a truly tragic event. Fire tragedies in non-domestic buildings of that scale were last witnessed in Ireland in the years 1979, 1980 and 1981, when the Whiddy oil terminal, the Bundoran Hotel and the Stardust nightclub fire tragedies occurred.

In response to the Grenfell tragedy, the then Minister for Housing, Planning and Local Government directed the national directorate for fire and emergency management to convene and co-ordinate a high-level task force to lead a reappraisal of fire safety in Ireland. My Department published “Fire Safety in Ireland”, the report of the fire safety task force, in 2018. Among the recommendations contained in that report is that fire services should undertake an assessment of significant premises and buildings to complement current area risk categorisation. The report recommends the assembling and integration of “operational intelligence”, that is, information accumulated on buildings, which is seen as vital for effective pre-incident planning, into the fire service response. Identifying specific premises, familiarisation with the hazards presented and the preparation of pre-incident plans, PIPs, are essential to delivering a safe and effective response to fires and emergencies.

Section 10(3) of the Fire Services Acts 1981 and 2003 provides that a fire authority shall, in the exercise of its functions, have regard to the nature of fire hazards in its functional area. In February 2023, good practice note 5.5 on “Pre-Incident Planning” was approved by the national directorate for fire and emergency management board and issued to all fire services. While the majority of fire services had pre-existing pre-incident planning programmes, this guidance was developed to standardise the approach and to support a review of existing programmes.

GPN 5.5 outlines that each fire station area should identify significant premises and assess the nature and extent of issues or hazards presented to responding crews. Steps taken for pre-incident planning and for developing links between pre-incident planning, operations, training and fire safety may include: identifying premises and gathering the appropriate information; gathering additional and associated societal, environmental and economic data; integrating a risk management plan; preparing PIP cards, preferably in digital format, to be made available for responding crews; co-ordination between local fire service operations, training and fire safety; and reviewing and updating PIPs, as necessary.

Site visits are undertaken by local fire officers to gather or confirm information for the preparation of a PIP card that provides a standard layout and technical summary of premises for the crew and incident commander. If pre-incident planning identifies specific issues of concern in relation to a premises, a chief fire officer may consider designating specific predetermined attendance, setting out the number, type and order of despatch of fire appliances in the event of an incident.

I will come back with a supplementary response on the issues around recruitment. There is no doubt there are recruitment challenges across the labour market but it is a matter for the authorities.

Senator Marie Sherlock

I thank the Minister of State for the response. He set out what should happen but we do not have any detail as to how the Department ever follows up with the individual fire services, how comprehensive the preparation of PIP cards is, whether that information in any way exists within the Department or whether there are reporting mechanisms for fire services internally or to the local authorities. Ultimately, if the public is to have confidence in its fire services going forward, particularly in Dublin, where the city is transforming before our eyes given the number of buildings that have gone up in recent years, we need to ensure there are reporting processes in place. It is one thing having a plan and guidance for fire services but that is very different from enforcement and follow-up. I am not hearing that from the Department at this time and I strongly suggest that the Department ensures those reporting mechanisms are put in place. It is insane in this day and age, in 2024, six years on from when the fire safety task force was set out, that we do not have those pre-fire intelligence surveys at a comprehensive level within fire services across the country. I ask the Department to do something about it.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

Under section 22(4) of the Fire Services Acts 1981 and 2003, a fire authority may require owners or occupiers of buildings to provide building information to support the preparation of PIPs, such as plans of buildings, hydrant locations, number of persons day and night, both ambulant and non-ambulant, evacuation plans, a list of hazardous materials stored or processed and contact details. Fire station training programmes include sessions on site familiarisation and pre-incident planning, including the application of an appropriate risk assessment methodology. On-site visits to specific premises are valuable as familiarisation training for responding crews and serve as quality assurance for PIPs. The preparation and ongoing review of PIPs are an important step in underpinning the risk management-based approach of the Irish fire services.

I am conscious that, in my response, I have not given the Senator all of the detail that she required so I will ask the Department to revert to her. I know she asked about recruitment challenges and there is no doubt that, as I stated, there are challenges right across the labour market. In terms of the broader reporting mechanism that she sought information on, I will ask the Department to revert to her.

Electoral Process

Senator Victor Boyhan

I thank the Minister of State, Senator Hackett, for agreeing to take this Commencement matter. Ironically, I met the Minister of State with responsibility for electoral reform in the Seanad anteroom and we had an opportunity to discuss some of this. He had a decided view; that is his view and I am not here to communicate his view, but I would share his view, which is encouraging.

I have a very simple ask today. The Minister of State, Senator Hackett, might ask why I am asking about the local elections statutory order for the designation of the election date, so I will tell her why. When I raised this in the House, I was told it is a matter that the Minister will deal with in due course. I then wrote to the Department and I have correspondence from officials in the Department but as the officials are not here, it would not be appropriate for me to quote what the officials said. Ultimately, the Ministers of the Government are responsible for the conduct of Government business.

The matter I raise refers to the need for the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, to make a statement confirming the official voting date for the forthcoming local elections and to confirm his full intention to sign the statutory order for that date. I do that for a number of reasons. It is important to set out the context in Seanad Éireann. There are 949 councillors elected to 31 local authorities. All will be facing an election some time in June and I do not think there is any secret that it will be in June. A number of them, from all parties and none, have contacted me to say they wish to prepare literature, which is expensive, because they want to encourage voter turnout and, for that reason, they would like to indicate the exact date. I know Friday, 7 June, has been considered as a possible date. That is the important point.

On a positive note, I acknowledge the work the Government has done, and given I have a few minutes of speaking time, I have made the point about that. There is a desire for inclusion. There is still an under-representation of women and people from diverse backgrounds in local authority council chambers across the country, and that does not altogether reflect the rich make-up and diversity of our country. It is an important point. I acknowledge that Department officials have worked hard in recent years to encourage greater participation of women and those from diverse backgrounds in politics. I also acknowledge the Government's financial commitment and the latest figure I have is that €435,000 has been allocated to political parties.

I do not see Independents there but when one of the Ministers was at the launch of a portrait and spoke about inclusion and inspiration in local politics, he said that €435,000 had been allocated to encourage greater participation of women and those from diverse groups in local politics. Again, I acknowledge that as being really positive.

We know we want to encourage more women to run for election and to encourage people who have never experienced political life and who do not really know the ropes and processes into local politics. We know there is under-representation of diverse groups in local politics. We know we will have mayoral elections in June. A large Bill passed through both Houses. We want to encourage voter turnout and for candidates to promote voter turnout in their election literature. We know that the European elections have to be held between 7 and 9 June so that shortens the date. Friday is 7 June. Perhaps the Minister of State might throw some light on that. We want certainty for all political groups and none, we want to encourage high participation from a diverse number of people and more information about this process would be welcome.

Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine (Senator Pippa Hackett)

I thank Senator Boyhan for raising this issue. I know that many elected representatives, public representatives, political parties and others are preparing for the local and European Parliament elections in June. Polling day for both sets of elections is an important event in our democracy.

In electoral law, the polling day for all elections and referendums is set when the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage makes the relevant order. These orders include the date and times that polling will take place. An announcement in respect of polling day for the local elections this year will be made in due course by the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage. As Senators will be aware, the polls for European Parliament and local elections in Ireland are typically taken on the same day. As Senators are aware, elections for the European Parliament and local elections will take place between 6 and 9 June but I have been told that the Minister will make the polling day orders in early April. That is within the month or less. In three weeks' time, we will have the date assigned. I hope this gives people a bit more confidence in terms of the date but we do know that it will be between 6 and 9 June.

Senator Victor Boyhan

I appreciate where the Minister of State is coming from. She is delivering this response on behalf of the Department, which is not her Department. It is interesting, however, that all the political parties and Independents do not know the date. What is the reason for the reluctance of the Minister to confirm? Surely it is about participation, democracy and encouraging people. I will scan this reply to send it to the 949 councillors and tell them that I followed it up again. The Houses of the Oireachtas press office issued this Commencement matter this morning anyway and I have also circulated it nationally, so I will be going back down to say that yet again, the Minister with responsibility for local government in a tripartite coalition cannot confirm to councillors the date. We know it is within three days but with all due respect, this is unsatisfactory. Again, I know it is not the Minister of State's portfolio but could she use her influence in the Government as a member of the Green Party with a very committed Minister of State with responsibility for local government reform so that we can try to bring this date forward a bit? This is all I can ask.

Senator Pippa Hackett

I accept the frustrations and concerns that exist about when the date will be. I will have the conversation with my colleagues around that. All that said, the Minister has committed to making that polling day order in early April. That will be two months out from the date. Two months is plenty of time for the challenges around literature publication but I accept the frustration that exists. We will have the date within the next couple of weeks.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator Eileen Flynn)

I welcome students from St. Pius school, Terenure, to the Chamber this morning. We hope they enjoy their visit. It is always lovely to see young students in Leinster House getting a feel of the place. Hopefully, one day, one of them will be in here.

Vacant Properties

Senator Lisa Chambers

According to a new report from GeoDirectory and EY Economic Advisory Services, one in five commercial premises in Galway city is lying empty. The report was published yesterday and reported by Enda Cunningham, the editor of The Connacht Tribune. The report detailed vacancy rates across the country with some very stark percentages, particularly for the west of Ireland.

Nationally, the average vacancy rate is standing at 14.3%. This is the highest it has been since GeoDirectory began its services in 2013. At the beginning of 2013, the vacancy rate for County Galway was 12.8%. Commercial vacancy is on the rise nationally and is worrying but the numbers in the west of Ireland are even more concerning. Galway now has the second highest number of empty premises in the country behind Sligo and the commercial vacancy rate in Sligo stands at 20.5%. In Galway, it is 18.5%; in Donegal, it is 18.2%; and in Mayo and Roscommon, it is 17.4%. They comprise the top five counties, all of which are in the west of Ireland and far above the national average of 14.3%.

By comparison, the lowest rates in the country were in Meath at 10%, in Wexford at 10.5% and in Cork at 12.2% so this paints a very clear picture of an economic imbalance between the west of Ireland and the rest of the country. I believe the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment should urgently review this report and the data contained in it and come up with a properly resourced plan to address commercial vacancy in the west of Ireland.

A breakdown of the figures at the end of 2023 shows that for Galway city, the rate was higher than the rate in County Galway at 20.1%. Tuam recorded the largest vacancy rate in County Galway at 26.1%. That was the sixth highest placed town in the country. It comes in behind Longford at 30.2%, Shannon, County Clare, at 29.8%, Ballybofey, County Donegal, at 29.4%, Boyle, County Roscommon at 27.6% and Sligo town at 26.2%. Not one of those towns is in the east of the country. Apart from Longford, they are all in the west of Ireland. Something must be done about this because they are all west of the Shannon. Why is that?

Dara Keogh, the chief executive of GeoDirectory, has said the rate of commercial vacancies in Ireland has hit a new high of 14.3%. This trend can be attributed to a number of factors such as the rising cost of doing business, changing consumer habits and hybrid working. She says that consideration must now be given to how some of these vacant properties can be repurposed and reused to avoid long-term vacancy and potential dereliction. This must really stand as a stark warning because dereliction is already a problem in the west of Ireland so we do not want to add to it. Annette Hughes, the director of EY Economic Advisory Services, said that businesses have been affected by a series of factors in recent years that have led to challenging trading conditions for many so this increase is not unexpected.

Nothing every stands still, hybrid working has been fantastic for workers and changing consumer habits are part of life so there is little a Government can do about these issues. Moreover, businesses will respond to those consumer changes. However, we can address the rising cost of doing business and this has been highlighted by every business representative organisation, particularly in the past couple of years. A lot has been asked of business this year. We have had auto-enrolment, an increase in the minimum wage, the introduction of statutory sick leave and the VAT rate went back up to 13%. Apart from the increase in the VAT rate, these are all changes that are supported by businesses but they are having an impact on costs.

The elephant in the room is commercial rates. It is simply too expensive to set up a physical business with a shopfront as overheads are so high and businesses are competing with very sophisticated online retailers that do not have the same overheads. We need to think outside the box and evaluate the position of physical shopfronts. We have to encourage businesses to rent premises and to make it affordable for them to do so as otherwise, our city and town centres will be hollowed out and we will have long-term vacancy and dereliction. There is therefore a public interest argument for really addressing the cost of physical businesses on the ground. If we want people to set up businesses, we have to make it affordable. At the end of the day, businesses have to make a profit.

Senator Pippa Hackett

I sincerely thank Senator Chambers for raising this really important issue and allowing me the opportunity to provide an update on this matter on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Coveney.

It is important to first acknowledge a high level of vacancy does not represent a productive use of commercial infrastructure. However, it should also be noted that vacancy levels can rise and fall depending on economic activity as well as in response to broader economic trends. For example, the shift in work patterns initially precipitated by the onset of the Covid-19 pandemic has contributed to the current context in which a significant portion of commercial property in many of our towns and cities is currently vacant. With that said, I am conscious of the need to ensure the existing commercial space across the country is put to the best use possible. Certainly, Senator Chambers has highlighted some very stark figures.

Tackling vacancy is a key priority for this Government. The programme for Government commits to examining ways to ensure unused and underused building stock in urban centres can be made available for much-needed housing. The Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage has also convened a working group on the redevelopment of vacant commercial properties, which the Minister, Deputy Coveney's Department participates in. The objective of the group is to assess and make recommendations about the potential for the development of vacant commercial properties for housing. It is anticipated the working group will submit recommendations to the Minister for housing in quarter 2 of this year. Increasing housing supply is also of paramount importance in ensuring that Ireland remains a competitive location for FDI. Given the current volume of vacant commercial property, I understand commercial-to-residential conversions could represent a significant opportunity, especially in urban locations.

The city of Galway is a crucial part of the west’s attractiveness to FDI. There are 128 IDA-supported companies in the west region, with 103 in Galway city and county. These employ 24,080 people, notwithstanding that employment in the west region dipped slightly in 2023, including in Galway. The availability of property and infrastructure solutions that meet the needs of MNCs and indigenous clients remain essential to winning investments and the IDA currently has a second building under construction in Galway as well as a building in Oranmore at site selection stage.

Regarding specific interventions, the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage launched the vacant property refurbishment grant in July 2022. The grant provides support of up to €50,000 for the refurbishment of vacant properties, including over the shop residential units, with a further €20,000 available where a property is derelict. More recently, the town centre first policy was launched by the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and the Department of Rural and Community Development in February 2022 to tackle vacancy and dereliction and breathe new life into our towns. The Minister, Deputy Coveney's Department is also leading on the increased cost of business grant announced as part of budget 2024, which will target SMEs operating from a rateable premises. The grant is intended to aid firms most affected by increases in business costs, but is not intended to compensate for all increases in wages, or other costs, for every business.

Senator Lisa Chambers

I thank the Minister of State. It is interesting there are probably more mentions of the Department of housing in the reply than the Department of enterprise, which was responding today. In any event, why should we be concerned about commercial vacancy? I refer to our national development plan and Project Ireland 2040. The plan runs from 2021 to 2030. Contained in this plan is a commitment that Galway, as our city in the western region and our regional economic driver, would grow at twice the pace of Dublin through sustained investment. It also outlines an ambition for Galway to significantly grow its population and jobs by 50% to 60% and become a city of greater scale. With the commercial vacancy rates we are seeing I question our ability to achieve these worthy and ambitious targets. This planned growth is vital to the economic growth of our western region. I ask again that the Department of enterprise urgently review the report I have mentioned and prepare a plan to address commercial vacancy in Galway city and in the west.

I will deal with some of the points the Minister of State raised in the reply she delivered on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Coveney. While I accept vacancy does not represent a productive use of commercial infrastructure, we must acknowledge that if we walk down, say, Shop Street in Galway and there are buildings empty it is not a good look for our city and is bad for other businesses around there that are trying to survive. We need to increase footfall. According to the Minster, Deputy Coveney, vacancy levels can rise and fall. However, figures will show they are only rising. If we look at the programme for Government, we are committed to examining ways to ensure unused buildings come back into circulation. We are four years in now and we are still waiting on a plan to be published on that. I ask again a sense of urgency be applied to this. While I appreciate there have been Government initiatives like the vacant property refurbishment grant and the town centre first policy, these initiatives are from the Department of housing rather than the Department of enterprise. The increased cost of business grant has been welcomed, but the €250-odd million put into that grant is looking like about €5,000 per business. It is not going to be enough to offset the increased costs to business. I urge the Minister, Deputy Coveney, to really take a look at the commercial rates situation. We need to make it affordable and viable for businesses to rent physical premises, especially with the increased use of online shopping. We have to think outside the box for Galway and the entire western region.

Senator Pippa Hackett

I thank the Senator. I am sure the Department will examine the report in full. As she highlighted, the figures are stark. Just to reiterate, the Government is committed to addressing vacancy and maximising the use of existing building stock. It is essential we consider the best means by which to ensure vacant properties are brought back into effective use. Beyond ensuring the most efficient use of our existing buildings I am also aware that from a climate and sustainability perspective there is a strong incentive to retain, repurpose and, where necessary, redevelop our vacant structures as they may represent a significant volume of embodied carbon. Thus, it is in our best interest to fully explore the options available to us for repurposing these structures. I again thank the Senator for raising this. It is an important issue.

Hospital Closures

Acting Chairperson (Senator Eileen Flynn)

I welcome the Minster of State, Deputy Butler, to the House. Senators Kyne and O'Reilly are going to share time. This will be interesting. I have never seen this done for a Commencement matter before.

Senator Seán Kyne

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach Gníomhach. I thank the Cathaoirleach for choosing this matter. Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit. Tá an Ospidéal Cheantar an Chlocháin dúnta le seachtain anuas gan aon fhógra ón HSE. Thug an tAire Stáit cuairt ar an ospidéal sin an samhradh seo caite agus chas sí le cairde an ospidéil agus le hionadaithe poiblí. Tuigeann sí chomh tábhachtach is atá na seirbhísí cúraim faoisimh. Tá éileamh ar na seirbhísí agus tá Ospidéal Réigiúnach Pháirc Mherlin faoi bhrú agus tá leapacha ar fáil sa Chlochán.

The Minister of State is welcome. I thank her for coming in to talk about the matter of Clifden District Hospital, or Our Lady of Fatima Hospital. She visited Clifden last August and met the Friends of Fatima and public representatives. The Minister of State has engaged on this matter and given commitments. I ask her, very upfront and straight, whether and when Clifden District Hospital will reopen. It cannot be a question of whether it will, as it has to reopen. It is absolutely vital for the area. We held a public meeting in Clifden in September 2022. It was packed. There was a huge crowd and great interest and as I said, the Minister of State visited last August. My colleague, Councillor Eileen Mannion, who has put a huge amount of work into protecting hospital services in Clifden, and I are holding a community meeting next Monday in Clifden Town Hall.

What engagement has the Minister of State had on this matter? I have engaged with Des Mulligan, the head of older persons' services in Community Healthcare West and obviously Damien McCallion will have a role as well as chief operations officer at the HSE. It has been suggested there is a staffing issue, that there has been a staffing embargo. Can the Minister of State confirm whether there is an embargo? These are funded posts that are already there. They are already committed to and are long-standing posts. There might be people out sick and people being promoted, but the posts are there. They need to filled and we need certainty on this in the next number of days.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

I thank the Minister of State for coming in. As she is aware, Senator Kyne and I jointly submitted this Commencement matter. It is really important we all stand together when it comes to people of Clifden because once again confusion abounds when it comes to Clifden District Hospital. As Senator Kyne outlined, we have a public meeting which was packed. It was cross-party. We all want to work to try to improve things, but the frustration we feel is nothing compared to that felt by people on the ground, patients and families who were told one week the hospital was not closing, and the very next week it was closed. It is very difficult to answer any questions when we are asked about whether there is a staffing issue. We are told there is a moratorium in relation to staff, but we know full well there were staff there, so how can there be a moratorium on getting a staff replacement?

How can there be a moratorium on getting a staff replacement? We want some clarity today. We understand that staff are under pressure, but this is ultimately about patient well-being and safety. It takes a couple of hours for a family to bring a loved one into another hospital. That is the reality in Connemara. Our county deserves better.

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Mary Butler)

It is lovely to see Senator Flynn in the chair. I thank Senators Kyne and Pauline O'Reilly for raising this important issue. I want to be clear on this because I do not want people to be upset or worried. Admissions to Clifden District Hospital have unfortunately been paused due to lack of staff availability. For people listening who might not understand the situation in Clifden, the hospital has not been closed. I was delighted to visit last August and meet the Senators. Senator Kyne accompanied Deputy Ó Cuív and me to the hospital. It was important for me to see what we were talking about. I was struck because, while I know Connemara, I did not realise how vast it was and that people travel for almost an hour from town to town.

St. Anne's community nursing unit in Clifden has 21 beds and had 21 residents yesterday. They are all under the fair deal scheme. It is important that we protect them because they are long-stay beds. In Clifden District Hospital there are seven beds currently operational for respite, as there were last week when agency staff were used. I spoke to Mr. Mulligan, head of older people in Community Healthcare West, at 9 o'clock this morning. He informed me that agency staff were used last week to keep the respite beds open. There were no agency staff available this week. The hospital is looking for agency staff. It is a concentrated effort every day.

On the other question raised, Mr. Mulligan has also sent a business case to the HSE seeking a derogation for three nursing posts. My position is clear on that. The hospital would have been funded for enough nursing posts for 21 long-stay beds and seven respite beds, which are really important. When somebody retires, is out sick or moves to another job, that post is already funded as far as I am concerned. I will be speaking to Mr. McCallion in the HSE later today to try to get certainty on that. I have answered questions on this matter before. When I visited Clifden last year I was aware that there were challenges in keeping both Clifden District Hospital and St. Anne's community nursing unit open as Community Healthcare West is currently unable to adequately staff both rosters. Staffing at St. Anne's is the priority because there are long-stay residential clients. It is their home from home. For many people it is where they will spend their last days and it is important that is maintained. I agree with prioritising that over respite in this instance. However, it is important that we deliver both.

To be fair, people cannot be expected to travel to Merlin Park University Hospital. It is too far for respite care and for families visiting. There are currently three people on a waiting list for respite in Clifden District Hospital. It is vital those three people get those particular supports. As the Senators know, when I was in Clifden last year I was delighted to announce plans for a total of 40 beds in a brand-new state-of-the-art community nursing unit, consisting of 20 long-stay beds, ten dementia-specific beds and ten short-stay beds, including respite and step-down care. There is no effort being made to close down what is available to the people of Clifden and the surrounding areas. The respite beds are hugely important and I will keep a focus on this every day until we have those beds back open.

Senator Seán Kyne

I thank the Minister of State for her response and welcome her commitment to have this unit reopened as quickly as possible. She is absolutely right that respite is hugely important to those families who need and deserve it. They work to keep loved ones out of full-time care and everybody needs a break from that level of work. There is unfortunately still confusion as to whether the posts are funded. That is the crux of the matter. There are two issues. The first is whether the posts are already recognised and funded and the second is to get the staff to ensure those posts are filled. I suggest that one is easier than the other. We need certainty from the HSE and the Minister of State that these posts can be filled and then there is the challenge of filling them. I understand the need to ensure St. Anne's is prioritised. However, at the same time we want to ensure the respite beds are available. I would appreciate continued engagement on this matter over the coming days.

Senator Pauline O'Reilly

There should not be a choice between one and the other. There should not be a choice between St. Anne's community nursing unit and Clifden District Hospital. When staff numbers are down in a large hospital like University Hospital Galway or Merlin Park it is not ideal but it can be absorbed. However, when staff are down in a small hospital like the one we have in Connemara the hospital closes. This is an ongoing issue. There does not seem to be any sustainable solution to this, so people do not have confidence that there will be a solution. There needs to be a reprioritisation. It is certainly at the heart of Sláintecare that we have local services for local people so that people are not travelling. There needs to be a reprioritisation, so that staffing is prioritised for these local hospitals and local services.

Deputy Mary Butler

I thank both Senators for the way they have addressed this matter. We are all very conscious that this is home from home for many people and that respite is important. There is no bigger advocate in these Houses than me for community nursing units and HSE run community hospitals, whether they have 40 beds or 80 beds. I met yesterday with Dr. Emer Ahern who is the clinical lead for older people for the whole of the country. We had a long meeting in which we discussed respite and the resumption of respite beds, which has not occurred in some areas since Covid. We talked about transitional care funding and the importance of keeping older people out of acute hospitals and having throughput to the community. As Senator O'Reilly said, Sláintecare is about having the right care in the right place as close to home as possible. It is important that these respite beds are opened without delay.

To respond to Senator O'Reilly's question, there are two issues here. There is a dedicated focus on reopening these beds through agency staff but that is not ideal. There are no agency staff available this week, although they were available last week. That is the short-term solution. The long-term solution is to sort out whether these posts are funded and I hope to be able to provide some clarity on that later in the day.

Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionraí ar 11.18 a.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ar 11.30 a.m.

Sitting suspended at 11.18 a.m. and resumed at 11.30 a.m.