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Seanad Special Committee on the Withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union debate -
Monday, 10 May 2021

Customs Checks and Trade Flows in and out of Irish Ports: Discussion

The agenda for today's meeting is to delve further into customs checks and trade flows in and out of Irish ports following Brexit. I must now advise members and witnesses with regard to privilege. Witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to a committee. This means that witnesses have a full defence in any defamation action for anything said at a committee meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and may be directed to cease giving evidence on an issue at the Chair's direction. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard and are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that, as is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third party or entity. Witnesses who are to give evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts and may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter. Privilege against defamation does not apply to the publication by witnesses, outside of the proceedings held by the committee, of any matters arising from the proceedings.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment or make charges against a person outside the Houses of the Oireachtas or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I also remind members that they are only allowed to participate in this meeting if they are physically located on the Leinster House complex. In this regard, I ask all members to confirm they are on the Leinster House complex prior to making their first contribution.

Representing the Revenue Commissioners, we have Mr. Gerry Harrahill, commissioner and director general of customs, and Ms Celine O’Neill, principal officer, Brexit policy branch. The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine is represented by Ms Louise Byrne, head of the Brexit and international trade division, and Ms Hazel Sheridan, head of the import control operations division. The HSE is represented by Mr. Joe Ryan, national director of national services, and Ms Ann Marie Part, assistant national director for environmental health.

I now invite Mr. Harrahill to make his opening statement. I think his microphone is muted. One of the joys of having virtual meetings is that we often have these technical glitches. I ask everyone to bear with us while we try to sort it out.

Mr. Harrahill, can you try to unmute yourself there now? I think we might have resolved the issue on this end. Apparently not. Apologies, members and witnesses. We will have to suspend briefly for five minutes to resolve the matter. Bear with us, thank you.

Sitting suspended at 3.01 p.m. and resumed at 3.18 p.m.

I thank members and witnesses for bearing with us through that technical glitch. The show is back up and running. I now call Mr. Harrahill to make his opening statement.

Mr. Gerry Harrahill

I thank the Chairman. Good afternoon, Senators. I thank the committee for the invitation to attend today’s meeting. My name is Gerry Harrahill, Revenue Commissioner and Director General of Customs. I am joined today by my colleague, Ms Celine O’Neill, who is a principal officer in our Brexit policy and legislation branch. I very much welcome the opportunity to brief the committee on the operation of customs checks since 1 January.

In the interests of time, I have included as an appendix to my opening statement some additional information on Revenue’s preparations for Brexit and some of the challenges experienced since the beginning of the year. I hope this will be helpful to the committee.

It is now almost 20 weeks since the practical impacts of the UK being outside the EU customs union and Single Market have taken effect. In this time, stakeholders across a range of sectors such as haulage and logistics, importers, exporters, consumers, and indeed, State agencies have had to adjust to the biggest change in how we trade with the UK in almost 30 years.

Since 1 January, trade with the UK takes place under the terms agreed in the EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement. This means that where goods once moved freely between the two jurisdictions, so much so that businesses may not have even considered themselves as either importers or exporters previously, businesses and State agencies alike are all dealing daily with the reality of Brexit. That reality means customs formalities apply to all goods, irrespective of the cost, value, or origin of the goods, imported from and exported to Great Britain. Those formalities also apply to EU goods moving through the UK, either using the transit procedure or from a distribution centre in Great Britain.

In practical terms, this means that all goods require a customs declaration and some goods will require additional documentary or physical controls when they arrive in Ireland. Tariffs may also be payable if the conditions of the EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement are not met, as well as whatever VAT is payable. All import controls, including the payment of customs duty and VAT, must be completed before the goods can be released for free circulation. Unfortunately, complying with these formalities, as well as the additional time taken to move through the port, has impacts on businesses in terms of additional costs, longer lead in times, etc. This is the reality of trading with any third country.

For our part, we have tried to and will continue to work with trade to minimise these impacts by streamlining our processes in as far as is possible. Even with maximum efficiency, however, there will remain impediments to the free flow of trade with Great Britain that did not exist prior to 1 January.

I acknowledge the significant preparations undertaken by the majority of businesses in advance of Brexit. Testament to this is that of the approximately 105,000 freight movements into Dublin Port since 1 January, 82% have been green routed on arrival, meaning they passed freely through the port without the need for additional interaction with Revenue or any of the State agencies. Approximately 9,000 freight movements have arrived in Rosslare from Great Britain and, on average, 85% of those movements were green routed.

Trading with a third country, especially for businesses that previously traded solely within the EU, is complex and I want to take a moment to expand on this. Prior to Brexit, most goods imported to Ireland from a third country were shipped by lo-lo - containerised lift-on, lift-off sea movements - and by air. These goods were then placed into temporary storage facilities while the customs formalities were completed. While this allowed Irish businesses some additional time to complete all the import formalities, including the submission of documents, paying tariffs, etc., it also meant that goods were not released for free circulation for a number of days. The post-Brexit landscape is very different. The majority of third-country goods arrive in Ireland by roll-on, roll-off, ro-ro, ferry to supply the just-in-time market. It would be unacceptable for those businesses to have to wait several days before they can remove their goods from Irish ports. Consequently, Revenue introduced the customs ro-ro service to facilitate and support legitimate trade. This allows for the completion of customs formalities before the trucks and containers board a ferry, and as a consequence, certain import controls can be conducted in advance of the arrival of the goods, and trade can then flow efficiently through the ports on arrival in Ireland. When paperwork or physical checks are necessary on arrival, we can optimise the efficiency of procedures. The system also provides a direct channel of communication with the haulage sector, reuses data in as far as is possible, and gives visibility to all stakeholders at each step of the process before, during and after the ferry journey.

Revenue appreciates the challenges involved in complying with the import formalities within the tight timeframes associated with the just-in-time model and will continue to support those businesses experiencing difficulties. We have had excellent engagement with trade representative bodies, both directly and through stakeholder forums organised by the Department of Transport. This valuable feedback is being used by Revenue and the other agencies to improve our services with work already under way to enhance the functionality of our ro-ro service. I acknowledge, in particular, the very positive engagement we have had in recent months with the Irish Road Haulage Association, following a meeting with the Joint Committee on Transport and Communications Networks on 22 January.

It is important to be clear that we will never be able to achieve a situation where 100% of consignments are green-routed on arrival. Some goods will always require additional documentary or physical checks, for example, live animals or products of animal origin, as required under EU law. It is equally important to note that if declarations are not submitted in advance, 100% of goods movements arriving in Ireland would have to be red-routed to ensure compliance with import formalities. This is part of our obligation as guardians of the Single Market and the customs union. That is what provides the basis for the confidence of our EU partners in allowing Irish goods unfettered access to the European markets.

In terms of experiences over the first four months post Brexit, Revenue had its own challenge in the first ten weeks of 2021 in terms of the durability of our automated import system through which trade makes its import declarations. Apart from scheduled maintenance downtime, which is a normal feature of systems support, we unfortunately experienced performance degradation issues which impacted trade and business, sometimes on an intermittent basis. This caused frustration and delay for business for which Revenue apologised. More importantly, Revenue prioritised bringing greater stability to the system in conjunction with our IT partners. I am pleased to say that the system is highly performant since mid-March because of the improvement and stabilisation measures we implemented. We continue to prioritise the performance of customs IT systems.

Unfortunately, some businesses were not as prepared for Brexit as they needed to be because the necessary preparations were not completed and, in some instances, were not even started in advance of 1 January. For some, this was because of the late stage at which the Trade and Cooperation Agreement, to which I referred to earlier, was finalised and a misunderstanding that an agreement would mean no customs formalities or because of a lack of clarity on what the UK formalities would entail after 1 January, or in some instances because of an understandable focus on meeting an immediate challenge of Covid-19. These reasons are less than ideal in terms of preparation, but these circumstances were not unique to Ireland. They were similar to the experiences in many EU countries. Once 1 January passed, trying to adapt one’s business model in real time for something that had already happened, was going to be extremely challenging. However, Revenue has been steadfast in its engagement with trade and business over the last four months and we will continue to support and assist business in any way we can.

While businesses have made enormous progress in adapting to the new requirements in the four-month period, we need to be aware that other businesses which, because of significant stockpiling or perhaps because they have been closed due to Covid-19, may encounter similar challenges when the economy reopens over the coming months. There is also a need for businesses to prepare to comply with the UK formalities that, although delayed, will be introduced from October onwards. Revenue and the other State agencies will continue to work with trade to help in those preparations.

I reiterate that Ireland is a member of the EU customs union and Single Market and the UK is not. This permanently changes the nature of trade between the two jurisdictions with resultant impacts on costs, trade disruption and changes in trading patterns. Revenue’s role is to implement customs controls and to protect the Single Market and Ireland’s place in it, and we aim to do this in as fair, efficient and effective a manner as we possibly can. Subject to our duty under section 851A of the Taxes Consolidation Action relating to confidentiality for any individual taxpayer, I am happy to address any concerns and questions committee members may have.

I thank Mr. Harrahill for his statement. We got there in the end. If it is okay, we will proceed through the other opening statements and come to questions thereafter, as members wish to direct. I call Ms Byrne to make her opening statement.

Ms Hazel Sheridan

I will make the opening statement on behalf of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine.

My apologies. Ms Sheridan may have the floor.

Ms Hazel Sheridan

I thank the Chairman and the members of the committee for inviting myself and my colleague, Ms Louise Byrne, here today, to discuss issues relating to controls at ports on imports from Great Britain and the role of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine in those controls. I am head of the Department’s import controls operations division and Ms Byrne is head of its Brexit and international trade division.

We have just heard a comprehensive statement from Mr. Harrahill that explained the role of Revenue in the controls on imports from Great Britain. The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, the Department of Health and the HSE have responsibility for implementing a set of controls that are separate from customs controls but, at the same time, are dependent on customs processes and procedures. To try to make it easy for businesses to understand that relationship, we describe it as being like a dormer bungalow where a large floor area represents customs controls and in certain areas we have a second storey that represents the controls carried out by our Department and by the HSE.

The controls carried out by Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and the HSE are collectively known as sanitary and phytosanitary, SPS, controls. The purpose of these controls is to ensure that live animals, plants and products containing animal or plant material meet the food safety, plant and animal health standards of the European Union. SPS controls are a fundamental component of world trade arrangements because plant and animal diseases, as well as bacteria and viruses that can cause food-borne illnesses, move around the globe in animals, plants and products made therefrom. For example, the outbreak of foot and mouth disease that wreaked such devastation on the farming sector in the UK in 2001 was most likely to have been caused by the feeding of imported food products containing the foot and mouth virus to pigs. In more recent times, we have seen the devastation caused to the European pig industry by the spread of the African swine fever virus and the devastation caused to the European olive oil industry by the spread of xylella.

SPS controls consist of documentary, identity and physical controls. Documentary checks must be carried out on all eligible consignments. In the case of plants and plant products, these controls may, in specific cases, be carried out in advance of arrival at the port. In the case of animals and products containing animal material, controls must be carried out within the port itself. On arrival at the port, certain commodities must undergo identity checks. The frequency of the identity checks is laid down in European legislation. Those checks are carried out on a risk basis for plant products. In the case of live animals and products of animal origin, identity checks must be carried out on 100% of consignments presenting at the border control post.

Identity checks can be of two types. In the event that an official seal has been applied to the truck and its details entered on the health certificate, the identity check will consist of a check of that seal, which is a relatively straightforward and quick check.

If an official seal has not been applied, then the identity check will need to involve unloading the truck to check the boxes themselves or whatever packaging is contained within and, obviously, this will take a bit longer.

Some commodities are also required to undergo physical checks. Physical checks involve checks on temperature or organoleptic tests, such as tests of smell, colour, consistency or taste. In certain cases they may involve sampling for laboratory analysis. Minimum rates for physical checks are laid down in EU legislation. These vary depending on the risk associated with the product, from 1% for low risk products to as high as 100% in the case of live animals.

These EU requirements and controls are now a permanent feature of the flow of agrifood goods between Great Britain and Ireland. Furthermore, since leaving the EU the UK is in a position to set its own import policy, and it is implementing a phased approach to import requirements, including sanitary and phytosanitary controls. Since 1 January 2021, live animals, including equines, hatching eggs, and germinal products, must be pre-notified to UK authorities on its import of products, animals, food, and feed system, IPAFFS, and accompanied by an export health certificate.

On 11 March, the UK Government announced a delay in the phased introduction of additional import controls. These had been scheduled to take place on 1 April and 1 July. They have been delayed until 1 October, 1 January 2022 and 1 March 2022 and, as a result, further Brexit-related challenges to agrifood exports are expected. These controls were always going to apply, regardless of whether a free trade agreement is concluded between the UK and the European Union.

In recent times, there has been much talk of a veterinary agreement between the UK and the EU. It is important to note that such an agreement is unlikely to have an impact on the controls that apply to plants and plant products. Nor is it likely to have an impact on the requirement for documentary and identity checks as already described. What it would potentially impact is the frequency of the physical checks required. At present, the EU has a veterinary equivalence agreement with only three of the many countries it trades with, namely, New Zealand, Canada and Chile. The conclusion of a veterinary agreement with the UK depends on the UK Government agreeing to keep its food safety and animal health rules permanently aligned with EU rules, something which, to date, the it has indicated that it is not prepared to do.

Application of the EU Single Market import requirements to trade from Great Britain has represented a significant challenge, not just for industry but for the various agencies involved. Collectively, Revenue, the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, the Department of Health and the HSE have invested significantly in infrastructure, staff and IT systems to ensure that the controls now required could be carried out in the most efficient way possible. While there were teething problems in the early days, and it can sometimes be tempting to focus on individual problems, these have to be set in the overall context of what has been achieved.

What has been achieved has been remarkable. This could not have been done without very close collaboration between all of the State players, and between the State and the private sector. In 2020, the Department carried out approximately 3,500 checks at Dublin Port. In the first 15 weeks of this year, we carried out in excess of 13,000 checks at Dublin Port and 670 at Rosslare Europort. The operation at Dublin Port runs on a 24-7 basis and that in Rosslare runs from 4 a.m. to 10 p.m. The import controls division has dealt with more than 44,000 emails and 8,000 phone calls and the vast majority of consignments on which we have carried out controls have been cleared for release.

All of this is not to be say that the systems which have been put in place to facilitate trade could not be improved further. It is only through application of the controls and the processes set up to manage those controls that issues which could be improved upon can be detected. The Department continues to work very closely with its partners in Revenue and the HSE, as well with individual businesses, to clarify requirements and to identify areas where things could be done better. However, this has to be done in the overall context of complying with the requirements of the European Union. Businesses too have a role to play in making sure they understand their legal obligations and are familiar with the processes that have been set up to facilitate compliance with their legal obligations, by sharing information and by doing what is possible to simplify loads.

I hope this gives members of the committee a good sense of the role and experience of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine in the operation of the new arrangements since 1 January. Ms Byrne and I are happy to answer any questions committee members may have.

I thank Ms Sheridan for her statement and I call on Mr. Ryan to make the final opening statement.

Mr. Joe Ryan

I am the HSE national director for national services and I am joined by my colleague, Ms Ann Marie Part, assistant national director for environmental health. I thank the select committee for its invitation to meet it to discuss customs checks and trade flows in and out of Irish ports.

The HSE environmental health service is a regulatory inspectorate responsible for a broad range of statutory functions enacted to protect the health of the public. Under service contract with the Food Safety Authority of Ireland, FSAI, the environmental health service has responsibility for inspecting food imports of non-animal origin arriving from outside the European Union into Ireland, for compliance with EU food safety law.

In the interests of food safety and consumer protection, all EU member states are obliged to enforce EU import control legislation on food and food contact materials. EU Regulation 2017/625 requires specific foods imported into the EU to enter via border control posts with specified minimum facilities.

In preparation for Brexit, the HSE recruited and trained more than 110 additional environmental health officers and administration staff specifically for import controls at Dublin Port and Rosslare Europort border control posts. A 24-7 service is provided in both.

Inspections by environmental health officers include document checks, physical checks and sampling of products. These controls are required by EU legislation, which sets the frequencies and parameters for inspections on a wide variety of foods, particularly those the EU has designated as high risk to public health. Controls are required on products for a range of both microbiological and chemical risks including, for example, rice for genetically modified organisms; spices and nuts for mycotoxins and sesame seeds for salmonella and some products may be prohibited from entering the EU. The role of the HSE at the ports is to protect Ireland’s food chain and the health of the consumer.

Since 2017, the HSE has been working closely with colleagues in the Departments of Health and Agriculture, Food and the Marine, the Revenue Commissioners and the FSAI to ensure good co-operation between agencies on shared issues such as facilities management, information systems, joint inspections, and stakeholder communication.

Since 2018, the HSE has also been participating in numerous cross-agency groups supporting and informing food businesses, importers and agents of the post-Brexit requirements. The UK’s decision to leave the EU, however, means Ireland is now one of the first points of entry into the EU for GB products. It has presented significant challenges and new ways of working for many import businesses and it is clear that despite early engagement, many importers did not anticipate the level of complexity on 1 January.

Many of the higher-risk foods imported into the EU, which must now be checked at Irish border control posts, have mandatory paperwork requirements, which should be submitted electronically 24 hours in advance of arrival to allow for speedy transit through the ports. However, some businesses did not appear to be fully aware of this requirement in the early stages of Brexit, which caused some delays.

When insufficient or incomplete paperwork is submitted with a consignment, there could be a delay in its release from the port if this paperwork is not provided in advance. A small number of consignments, of which there were approximately 100 in quarter 1 of 2021, must also be selected for physical examinations and this process takes time. However, environmental health officers regularly communicate directly with the importer regarding the status of its consignment.

If the HSE receives the correct paperwork for a consignment prior to its arrival in Ireland and no physical examination is required, the environmental health officer indicates to Revenue, while the consignment is still on the ferry, that no further HSE controls are required and the consignment can be released. However, only Revenue can release a consignment from the port as there may be other agency checks required, depending on what mix of products may be in the consignment.

In the first quarter of 2021, the HSE undertook checks on almost 14,000 consignments between Dublin and Rosslare with over 11,000 of these consignments arriving from Great Britain. In the same period in 2020, checks were completed on 891 consignments. The vast majority of these consignments were cleared for release.

The HSE regularly meets and proactively works with importers, agents, hauliers and food businesses in cases in which difficulties have been identified.

A dedicated environmental health service business liaison group has been established for this purpose, alongside dedicated email addresses in Dublin and Rosslare which are monitored 24-7. This wide engagement and business-focused advice have led to a better understanding of procedures, leading to further compliance and reduced transit times through the ports.

In conclusion, with the UK now outside the EU, it is not possible to have the same automatic free flow of food through the ports as before. The HSE recognises industry challenges and remains committed to working together with other regulatory agencies, port authorities and industry representatives to ensure smooth and effective transition of goods through the ports while also ensuring compliance with EU food safety legislation.

I thank Mr. Ryan and the other witnesses for their opening statements. We move now to questions from members.

I thank Mr. Harrahill, Ms Sheridan and Mr. Ryan for their presentations. My question is to Mr. Harrahill and is based on ignorance on my part. What are the actual mechanics of VAT payments on imports to Ireland from the UK now? Where is money paid and at what stage of the transaction is it paid?

Mr. Gerry Harrahill

The best way of describing it is that as part of the process of importing goods into Ireland, a description of the goods will be provided in the declaration and it will then be clear what rate of customs duty, if any, and what VAT, if any, apply. What happens then is that in order for the goods to be cleared for circulation within Ireland, either the duty, including the VAT, must be paid at the time of import or if the importer has an arrangement with Revenue for collection of the duties and VAT as part of its normal accounting process, the VAT and customs duty are collected as part of the transaction. It is not separate but integrated as part of the process of determining whether there is a liability to customs duty and VAT and it is then paid at the point of import or, in most instances, by way of a deferred payment account in place between the importer and Revenue.

Does that mean that if the importer has an arrangement with Revenue, the matter is resolved with payment being made on a bimonthly or other periodic basis and only those who do not have an arrangement with Revenue have to produce cash up front to secure the release of their goods? Is that the bottom line?

Mr. Gerry Harrahill

In essence, yes. I ask my colleague, Ms O'Neill, to take the Senator through the process in detail to give him a full understanding of it.

Ms Celine O'Neill

I thank the Senator for the question. Postponed accounting for VAT was introduced in last year's budget. Consequently, any VAT-registered company that wishes to avail of postponed accounting is able to do so. What tripped some companies up at the beginning of the year is that they must indicate on the customs declaration that they want to avail of postponed accounting. Unless that box is ticked, the system will automatically deduct the VAT at the time that the importation is happening. If a company has opted for postponed accounting, it accounts for the VAT in its normal bimonthly return. That is probably the simplest way of thinking about it. If a company does not qualify to avail of postponed accounting of VAT, it can look into availing of a deferred payment account. That is where a company sets up an account with Revenue, covers the potential duties and VAT with a guarantee and then pays monthly for all of its imports during the relevant month.

I thank the officials from Revenue. I understand the situation now. I was a bit in the dark about it.

I welcome all our guests and thank them for their presentations. As public representatives and as a committee, our fundamental concern is that we have the speediest and most unobtrusive movement through ports, with minimal delay. We recognise, of course, the importance of food checks and the role of Revenue but we need efficiency. It is encouraging that there is the prospect of a veterinary agreement. I presume there is not much more we can say or do about that here today but it is encouraging and let us hope it is actualised.

In the context of what I said about our ambition for speed and efficiency, my understanding is that pre-Brexit, we appointed 1,000 additional personnel, give or take, in the customs sector. Do we have an adequate staff complement? Is Revenue confident it can perform effectively with the current cohort of staff? It is important for our report that our guests' position on that be clear - in a sensible fashion, needless to say, given that we do not expect anything different. The staffing question is important for our report.

In the context of what my colleague, Deputy McDowell, raised, there was a previous presentation to the committee, and the Chairman might help me out if I am hazy on when or precisely which group it was. I think it was small business owners. The collection of taxes was presenting a difficulty for people moving through the ports. When they were trying to move at off-peak hours or weekends, access to moneys was a difficulty, if I understood correctly the person who presented to the committee a few weeks ago. Our guests might comment on that. They stated in reply to Senator McDowell that a postponed payment can be made just twice monthly, which seems to negate what was said to us previously. Perhaps the Chairman, before she invites the response, might be fit to confirm that I am correct that the proposition was put to us a few weeks ago that there was a difficulty in this regard and that importers were experiencing difficulty with the Revenue dimension at off-peak hours, weekends and so on in having access to moneys and in presenting moneys in advance. That seems to have been negated by what our guests have said during this meeting, and of course we will be happy if that is so.

I thank the Chairman for facilitating me early in the meeting because I must leave presently to go to the Chamber.

I note that my learned colleague who shares a vocational panel with me has promoted Senator McDowell to being a Teachta Dála. I was not aware he had declared for the upcoming by-election, so I thank Senator O'Reilly for revealing that to us all.

I do not recall calling Senator McDowell a Deputy but there may well be a basis for doing so.

I would like to get a loan of Senator O'Reilly's crystal ball at some point.

Moving on to more serious issues, I welcome all our guests and thank all those who have contributed to the meeting. A theme that came across in all the contributions was the mayhem, if I can use that word, that took place at the outset of all this whereby many businesses, for understandable reasons, were not fully up to speed on what had to be done in regard to paperwork and so on. I can only imagine how it must have been for everyone involved. Now that we are down the road a little bit, are our guests happy that all businesses are up to speed on what needs to be done and what hurdles need to be jumped, or is there more to be done?

If more needs to be done, perhaps the witnesses might outline what that is in order that we may include their recommendations in the report we will be compiling at the end of this process.

Following on from Ms O'Neill's response to Senators McDowell and Joe O'Reilly regarding the VAT element, some businesses are going to have a cash flow problem because they have been closed due to Covid. I ask Ms O'Neill to send on the information she relayed to the committee about VAT. I apologise in advance for asking this but could she go over that again? For example, if a business was importing goods from the UK, cash flow for the payment of VAT might be a bit of a problem for it. Perhaps, as well as going over it again, she could also email us the relevant information as to what avenues are potentially open to that customer going forward.

Were Senator McDowell to decide to move back to the Lower House, that would be a demotion. Membership of the Lower House is a demotion.

I thank the Senator. It is always good to get his insight.

Mr. Gerry Harrahill

I will try to pick up on Senator O'Reilly and Senator Gallagher's comments. As Senator O'Reilly rightly said, we have taken on, in total, over 900 additional staff in the context of Brexit. There were two particular elements of focus to that decision, one of which was to ensure that we would be in a position to operate on a 24-7 basis at all our major points of import and export, which we are. I am very much focused on trade facilitation and that has certainly been a very strong focus for Revenue and customs from the start. The second element was about having sufficient and adequate enforcement capability in order to ensure that the level playing field is maintained for legitimate businesses and that they are not being undermined by illegitimate business. We were very fortunate in that we got approval from the Minister for Finance to take on those additional 900 people and they are in place and fully operational now. Overall, I am satisfied that we have that manpower capability in place. Of course, there was a huge additional investment by the State in the infrastructure at the ports and, to a lesser extent, at the airports.

The issue of familiarity was touched on by both Senators. We are satisfied that very good progress has been made. In the lead-up to 1 January a lot of businesses embraced the reality of Brexit. However, I had a meeting with my EU counterparts last week and a common theme was the extent to which, notwithstanding the fact that we had all made very clear that Brexit was happening on 1 January and that it would mean a sea change for processes and procedures, as negotiations were going on right up until Christmas, many businesses falsely or mistakenly put some trust in the idea that they could do away with the need to comply with customs formalities. That is a significant issue, not just for Irish trade and businesses but also for trade and businesses right across Europe. The other thing that was very significant was that a lot of businesses had a very understandable and strong focus on dealing with the immediate impact of Covid-19. Rather than planning for something that might happen in a week's time or a month's time, many businesses were struggling to deal with the reality of what they were facing on the day.

As regards what needs to be done, it is interesting that more businesses have applied for customs registration in the first four months of this year than in all of 2020.

That gives an indication of the pent up lack of preparation there is in various sectors. Some of that is down to people having stockpiled and having had a bit of fat in the system. That meant they were able to absorb the initial impacts of Brexit but there is no doubt that many businesses were late coming out of the traps. We are there to try to help and assist those businesses.

I mentioned this in my opening statement but it is also important to recognise that there are many businesses, starting today, next week and the following week, that are reopening after Covid and that have not been open in a post Brexit environment at all. Some of those businesses will probably be facing the challenge of dealing with the realities of Brexit and how they will cope with it in the coming weeks and months. We are anticipating that will arise as a level of demand and I know some of the trade representative bodies are in that space as well. As I mentioned at the outset, we are happy to work with the trade and representative bodies in that regard. We have participated in 27 events since the start of this year with almost 6,000 participants in those events. There is still a great opportunity and I have said on many occasions that it is never too late to get ready for the impact of Brexit. Even if it is later it is better than not getting prepared at all. We have to work collectively across the agencies and work with the trade and representative to try to make sure that businesses understand the impact of Brexit.

As has been mentioned by colleagues, on the agriculture side there are newer requirements kicking in on the UK side in October and next January. We need to make sure businesses are ready for those new requirements as well because that will hit them on the export side. We will hopefully have resolved most of the issues on the import side so we do not want a new problem to emerge.

I will ask Ms O'Neill to talk about the particulars of the VAT issue that Senator Gallagher asked about.

Ms Celine O'Neill

I will pick up on the two aspects Senators O'Reilly and Gallagher asked questions about in relation to payments. Mr. Harrahill mentioned that 12,000 businesses have applied for an economic operators registration and identification, EORI, number this year. Once one registers for that customs number, one is automatically assigned a trader account number, TAN. It is from that account that the payments for any customs, duties or VAT are taken. There was confusion in the early days that the EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement meant zero tariffs and quotas on all goods being imported from the UK, whereas in actual fact it only relates to goods of a UK origin. There are difficult and specific rules that relate to each product in order to avail of that zero tariff rate. That was the first difficulty that traders were having. They mistakenly thought that all goods imported from the UK would have zero tariffs payable and they then got a bill that they were not expecting in some cases. In other cases, they just did not claim it.

I mentioned the postponed accounting for VAT earlier. One must indicate on a declaration that one is availing of that postponed accounting. The same applies when one is claiming a preferential tariff rate. One has to indicate that on the customs declaration and that was not happening in the early days. We sent out some communications about that and that eased things for some people.

The way we try to think about it is that many of goods are moved by a lot of different people, for the same companies even, and the goods might arrive in at different times. Senator O'Reilly mentioned out-of-hours arrivals. While all of the State agencies are operating 24-7 in Dublin Port and on extended hours in Rosslare Europort, not all customs agents and brokers are. Where goods arrive out-of-hours and difficulties are encountered, there can be delays in rectifying the problem until customs agents come back on stream, maybe the following morning. Difficulties can be minimised by making sure there is sufficient money in the person's TAN account. Senator O'Reilly referred to a case where a haulier was moving goods on behalf of another business. In that instance, it was the TAN account of the business that was being used which did not have sufficient funds. That, in turn, delayed the entire shipment and vehicle. In those cases, the haulier itself will have a TAN account so it could use its TAN account and then it would be fully in control of what funds are in there. It could get the trader it is moving the goods for to pay the money over to it in advance, which would give it more control.

The way we tend to think about this is that it is similar to a person setting up direct debits from his or her account to all come out on the first day of a month. A person in that situation then has no say in the order in which those payments are made. All that is known is that it is necessary to have the full amount in the account on the first of the month to cover all the bills which will come in. That is the kind of scenario we are seeing.

Companies can do three things: they can see if they meet the requirements for claiming a zero-rate tariff, and indicate they wish to claim that tariff on the declaration; indicate they wish to avail of postponed accounting for the VAT element; or consider whether a deferred payment account would work well for them.

I thank Ms O'Neill. Does Ms Byrne wish to contribute on this point?

Ms Louise Byrne

I thank the Chair. I want to pick up on the point Senator Gallagher made regarding whether businesses were up to speed. It would be remiss of me to not make the point that while the UK has delayed the introduction of its import controls from 1 April, the next phase is kicking in on 1 October. It is very important that businesses take this opportunity to get ready for those import requirements. It poses a significant challenge to the State, as well businesses, in respect of providing advance notification to the UK's import of products, animals, food and feed system, IPAFFS, as well as the provision of export health certifications to the UK authorities.

We are engaging with our stakeholders and with businesses in this regard. We are also engaging with our colleagues in the Department for Food, Environment and Rural Affairs, DEFRA, and across the UK in respect of trialling and end-to-end testing. A great deal of work is ongoing, and we will be intensifying our communications to stakeholders, which have been ongoing, to ensure that businesses are fully ready for these changes coming on 1 October. I just wanted to pick up on that issue.

I also want to address Senator O'Reilly's comment that it was encouraging that there was a prospect of a veterinary agreement. I think that is probably a little ambitious. We obviously welcome the ratification of the Trade and Cooperation Agreement last week. It allows the institutional frameworks within the agreement to get up and running, and included in those is the trade specialised committee on sanitary and phytosanitary, SPS, measures. While there was a significant focus on trade facilitation within the SPS chapter of the Trade and Cooperation Agreement and while there will be discussions on that aspect, I am afraid to say that the UK's position concerning dynamic alignment does not bode well for an SPS agreement any time soon. I just wanted to make those points.

I thank Ms Byrne. Is Senator Gallagher happy with that?

Yes, I thank Ms Byrne very much. I thank all the contributors. I have a quick question for Ms O'Neill. Could she point me in the direction of where I might get the information regarding the VAT element, which she went through comprehensively?

Ms Celine O'Neill

I am sorry. I forgot to say when I was answering the Senator's question that we will be happy to send some information in writing to the committee on those aspects.

I thank Ms O'Neill.

That would be great. We can then circulate that document to all the members of the committee. That is much appreciated. I call Senator Wall.

I welcome everybody. It is great to have representatives from three agencies in front of us. I thank them all for their contributions so far. I have a few questions. One of the issues raised, and already referred to by the Revenue witnesses, is the 24-hour rule. People in the road haulage sector have been asking if there is any leeway in that regard. The closeness of the UK and Ireland means some loads were arriving within 15 hours. I would like a comment on that aspect. The point was raised when we met with representatives of the road haulage sector.

Ms Byrne spoke about the UK side of things, which has been postponed until October. However, I would like a comment from the representatives of all three agencies regarding co-operation between ourselves in Ireland and the authorities in the UK, and the challenges which will be faced in that regard. It is important that we touch on this issue today. As Ms Byrne said, we must get the message out regarding what is ahead of all of us in respect of getting our goods into the UK. I again thank everybody, and I would appreciate it if those two questions could be answered.

I believe Ms Sheridan's hand was up. I apologise if it was on the previous occasion; I just missed it.

Ms Hazel Sheridan

No problem; it is a hard job keeping track of all the hands being up.

Senator Wall asked about the 24-hour requirement, which is basically an SPS requirement to provide advance warning to us that a load is on its way, which allows us to make preparations. It is a really important component. Generally, people know more than 24 hours in advance that they will be sending a load. They might not have all the information available, which is not a problem so long as they tell us that the load is on its way. It allows us to do some preparatory work, which will speed up the passage of the truck through the port. I hope that provides some clarification about what that is. It is really in the interests of businesses to do that.

I wish to pick up on two other aspects. Senator Gallagher asked how things were going and whether businesses were up to speed. From an SPS and Department of Agriculture, Food and Marine perspective, considerable improvement has been made since the early days but we should not underestimate the complexity of the requirements. In an SPS context, the requirement for each commodity is different. The requirements are incredibly complex and it is not easy for businesses to get their heads around them, nor is it easy for them to adjust complex supply chains.

We are giving messages on a regular basis and the first is that people need to be familiar with the requirements. Many resources are available and we really encourage people, now that they are actually involved in the activity, to re-engage with those resources to ensure that they understand all the detail. There is a lot of detail to take on board.

We find the trucks are getting delayed because people are just missing one element of the process. A big problem we notice is errors on certification. If I could send any message to businesses, it would be to give attention to the detail on the certification. If there are problems with it, that will cause trucks to be delayed at the port. If that happens during the night or at weekends when there is not ready access to the customs agents or to the businesses on the UK side, it can cause substantial delays. It is really important for people to pay very close attention to the requirements of the certificates and ensure that they are completed.

We also see room for improvement on the communications between various players. It is quite a complex arrangement. There is the truck driver driving the truck, a haulage company behind that, a customs agent, the importer and the exporter supplying all the documentation. Very good communication between all those people is required for the system to work seamlessly. At the moment that does not always work, which leads to delays for the trucks in the port.

My colleague, Ms Byrne, will speak about co-operation. At a technical SPS level, we have been able to re-establish the kind of relationship we had with the UK prior to the Brexit vote, which is a very positive development. We always had very good relationships with our colleagues in the UK Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs in Northern Ireland. Now that the UK is outside the EU and the deals have been done, it is now possible for us to sit down and work. We find that an excellent way of improving understanding and resolving problems.

I am sure Ms Byrne will add to that.

Ms Ann Marie Part

Sorry, this is Ann Marie Part from the HSE. I wish to mirror some of the things Ms Sheridan has raised. I will address some of the queries that the Senators have raised from the HSE perspective

Senator Joe O'Reilly asked about staffing. We were lucky enough to get 142 staff approved, of whom 110 are now working on import control in Dublin Port and Rosslare Europort. They provide a 24-hour service there efficiently and effectively. The numbers of staff taken on were based on our best estimates for the trade that might come through. We hope that we are dealing with it very well at the moment. There is a question mark over businesses reopening and new businesses coming online leading to the levels of trade increasing.

An extra 30 staff were given to us for export certification. As the discussion has touched on, there will be changes in import controls on the UK side from 1 October, and the environmental health service is involved with providing export certificates for certain products and businesses and we want to do everything we can to ensure businesses can trade efficiently and effectively out of the country, as well as coming into the country.

Members have probably gathered that a large amount of work has been done across the agencies at various different levels to get businesses ready. We have been working at a macro level to set out the information that people need. We are also working at an individual level. Recently we set up an individual liaison group with the environmental health service where we identified particular businesses that may have had difficulties in coming through the port. We have been working with them one to one in building compliance and trying to get them up to speed on what they need. Our process is to try to make life as easy as possible.

Senator Wall mentioned the 24-hour period and if the documentation can be submitted to us electronically 24 hours in advance, we can effectively "green route" the products while they are still on the ferry if there are no issues or physical examinations needed. They can come straight into the port clear of HSE controls. That is what we have been trying to do as efficiently as possible. We have certainly been doing our best to work with businesses and we will continue to do that with both importing and exporting.

Ms Louise Byrne

I want to pick up on the preparations in meeting UK import requirements that Senator Wall has correctly raised as a challenge for us all. The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine is the designated competent authority for the vast majority of affected food businesses that will have to comply with these import requirements. Other competent authorities involved with the provision of export certification include the Sea-Fisheries Protection Authority, SFPA, the local authority veterinary services and the HSE.

In the vast majority of cases, the certification requires an official veterinarian to sign off on the health certificate. We have a very significant challenge. Unlike on the import side, where controls are conducted at border control posts, we have businesses that are regionally dispersed all over the country and who have integrated supply chains with customers in the UK operating just-in-time trade supply chains and models. Things must change as we cannot provide the export certification without there being changes to processes, systems and staffing. Staff in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, along with our colleagues across the Government, have been preparing intensively to meet these requirements. We are meeting the requirements put in place from 1 January. When those requirements kicked in on 1 January, we had to have information technology systems, staff and processes in place to support the certification.

The work is ongoing and is intensifying, given that from 1 October, the requirements in respect of products of animal origin, which is the main category of products that must meet import requirements, will lead to somewhere in the region of a fourfold increase in certification requirements. Currently we issue somewhere between 60,000 and 70,000 export certificates for trade across the globe and we export food to 180 markets around the world. We are looking at that fourfold increase, not only with respect to exports to Great Britain but also exports through the land bridge. The current indication from the UK is it will require a transit certificate and IPAFFS notification for those consignments as well.

We have carried out an intensive examination of the UK requirements as set out in its border operating model. We have submitted a series of detailed questions relating to some outstanding matters. We are expecting a revised iteration of the border operating model before the end of the month but it will not be substantive enough to answer all the open questions. We are engaging directly with the United Kingdom's Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, DEFRA, on those. We are expecting a further iteration of the UK border operating model in September.

On what we are doing at present given the postponement of the UK import controls, we have had regular engagement with our stakeholders, including the food business operators as well as the people who will be doing the certification, and that engagement is ongoing. We have conducted a number of internal trials from application for certification to point of certification on the Irish side and we have engaged with the border protocol delivery group and the UK Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, DEFRA, Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs, HMRC, and with our colleagues in Revenue on the Irish side, and other government departments on the UK side, in relation to end-to-end testing. We will be doing some end-to-end testing in advance of 1 October requirements in the same way as we did in advance of 1 January 2021 requirements.

We have established a supply chain working group within the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine where we are engaging directly with some of those logistics providers who are moving the goods from Ireland to Great Britain. We had a first meeting of that working group a few weeks ago and we are meeting individual companies this week. The idea of that engagement is to learn from the challenges that they faced in terms of moving goods from Great Britian into Ireland from 1 January and to make sure that we take all the learnings we can from that process so that we can apply them when the shoe is on the other foot and when we have to meet the UK import requirements.

We are obviously continuing to engage with the EU. It goes without saying in order to be able to export to the UK one has to be on a list of approved businesses. The EU will be providing that list to the UK and that list will be generated from the trade control and export system, TRACES. We are putting all of those businesses which are exporting to Great Britain on TRACES; we have the vast majority of them on the system.

We are also engaging directly with the TRACES unit in Directorate-General for Health and Food Safety, DG SANTE, to try to make that system work very well because we will be using TRACES to generate health certificates for meat and meat products and for composite products. We have a number of information technology systems that will be used to generate certificates. We have an export certification system and we have a dairy products certification system. As I say, we are engaging regularly with our food business operators to make sure that they are aware of what the requirements are and that they, too, can play their part.

We are also engaging with the HSE, with the local authority veterinary service, LAVS, with the Food Safety Authority of Ireland, FSAI, and with the Department of Health in terms of that engagement across the sector and where we can assist in terms of meeting the requirements. For instance, the local authority veterinary services will be using TRACES to generate the export certificates and we have invited their food business operators, FBOs, and their LAV staff - veterinary officers - to our training. There is a huge amount of work going on.

We will be continuing our communications with stakeholders and there will be no shortage of information and some very useful information on our website for anybody who is intending to export from 1 October.

I thank Ms Byrne. Mr. Harrahill, you have your hand up.

Mr. Gerry Harrahill

Thanks, Chair. I will mention briefly one or two points in response to Senator Wall's question around the engagement with the UK side of things. It is important to say that we are part of the EU 27 and we have to always make sure that as guardians of the Single Market and the customs union, what we are doing is on all fours with what is required there. I participate on a monthly basis in an engagement that actually reviews the progress on Brexit. It is very much around trying to make sure that in all of the issues that are arising, there is a common approach in terms of how we resolve those.

More particularly, for the countries that are most impacted by Brexit, that would be Belgium, France, the Netherlands, Germany and Ireland, there is a group of five that meets on a regular basis at customs level with the European Commission and we share experiences. Part of that is the engagement with the UK and some of that feeds into some of the discussions that are ongoing at EU level with the UK to try to iron out difficulties or challenges.

That is very much part of the agenda. I will ask my colleague to comment briefly on the third piece, which is the direct engagement we have had with HMRC regarding its Goods Vehicle Movement System, GVMS.

Ms Celine O'Neill

We meet regularly with our counterparts in HMRC to discuss the operational implementation of their requirements and although they have been delayed, they will happen from October and January 2022. The good thing for our traders, from the EU perspective, is that the export requirements are already being met. They came in on 1 January and there have been little to no difficulties for our exporters in providing their customs export declarations. The challenge that might arise is if those same exporters are responsible for the import formalities on the UK side. That is dealt with by incoterms, which determine the end of the supply chain responsible for the customs import formalities. For some, controlled goods import declarations were required from 1 January for the UK. Depending on whether it is the Irish company and whether it has an establishment in the UK, it will have been making declarations already so hopefully the impact will not be as great when those requirements kick in later on in the year. The other point to make is that the requirements mirror the EU requirements. The information that is required on our declarations is exactly the same as that required on the UK side so hopefully businesses will be very familiar, at that stage, with those requirements if they are responsible for lodging the declarations.

As the commissioner mentioned in his opening remarks, we introduced a customs roro service which allows all of the information on the imports to be tied together and presented to Revenue and other agencies in advance of the arrival of the shipment. The UK will be introducing a very similar model called the GVMS. We have been talking to them regularly about the requirements for that to try to mirror them as far as possible and align them with what is happening with the customs roro service so that when the time comes and the system needs to be interacted with, it will be as streamlined as possible and as familiar to traders as the customs roro service.

Senator Malcolm Byrne is next.

I thank all the witnesses for their attendance. We have to prepare a report at the end of this period and we will make recommendations on making life easier for Irish businesses. Are there any specific legislative or regulatory changes that the witnesses believe that we, as legislators, should examine in the coming years to ensure business can continue as smoothly as possible?

On infrastructure, particularly with regard to the ports in Dublin and Rosslare, are there any specific infrastructural preparations needed to help Revenue, the Department and the HSE to do their job and more important, make it as easy as possible for businesses to do theirs?

The Senator's questions are applicable to all three agencies so we will start with the HSE, followed by the Revenue Commissioners and then the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine.

Mr. Joe Ryan

I will ask my colleague, Ms Part, to respond to those questions as well. In terms of legislative requirements, there is a lot of legislation going through at the minute. There is nothing specific required from an environmental health point of view but I will defer to my colleague on that. In terms of the infrastructure, we need to acknowledge that great work has been done to put infrastructure in place at the ports. A significant volume of movements and inspections of movements are happening, as well as the associated processing of paperwork and that can only grow, particularly as the economy reopens. I will defer to my colleague to provide more details.

Ms Ann Marie Part

In terms of legal requirements, we are bound by EU legislation as it stands so I would not have any recommendations in that regard. On the facilities at the ports at Rosslare and Dublin, we operate border control posts, which means there are minimum requirements. The unloading bays, inspection rooms, storage areas, toilet facilities and so on must be of food-quality level, for example.

They have been provided to us in both of those locations but we are able to use them. There is, obviously, significant work going on in terms of rebuilding and restructuring around Dublin Port. The permanent facilities for the HSE environmental health service are currently under construction and due to be available to us at the end of this year. That is on track and we have no reason to believe it will not be. In the interim, and in another example of inter-agency co-operation and collaboration, we have been working well with our colleagues in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, who have been facilitating us in co-locating in some locations. From our perspective, what we need is currently there and what we are hoping to have permanently will be there for us at the end of the year. It is worth acknowledging again that significant work was done in a very short period of time to make all that work. I will defer to our colleagues from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine.

I thank Ms Part. Would either Mr. Harrahill or Ms O'Neill from Revenue like to come in on those questions?

Mr. Gerry Harrahill

I would say "No" to the question about legislation on the basis that the basic legislation that is there is the Union customs code and the national statute is the Customs Act. I would be comfortable that, broadly speaking, the legal framework is sound.

On infrastructure, I should put on the record my acknowledgement of the work done by the Office of Pubic Works, OPW, to put all the infrastructure in place. What is there and what is planned in the context of Dublin Port, and what we will have by the end of the year, will meet the requirements. After that, it is a question of making absolutely sure that the procedures operated across and between the agencies are fully aligned so that we get maximum efficiency for what we have there.

The Senator is probably aware that there is a longer-term plan for Rosslare Europort. All the agencies, including the Revenue Commissioners, have clearly set out the requirements in the context of that longer term solution. We are happy that the OPW will lead on behalf of all the agencies. What is in Rosslare at the moment is adequate for our purposes but a longer term solution is actively being talked about.

I thank Mr. Harrahill. Do Ms Byrne or Ms Sheridan wish to come in on that question?

Ms Hazel Sheridan

I will come in both those points. We really do not have anything to add because it has been adequately covered by our colleagues from the HSE and Revenue. Similar to our colleagues in Revenue and the HSE, we cannot see a requirement for legislative change. We are operating under EU legislation and have very little discretion in that regard because those regulations must be implemented in the member states.

The infrastructure has already been described well. There is substantial infrastructure at Dublin Port. Further developments are under way and there is plenty of capacity within that infrastructure as things stand. As Mr. Harrahill has said, there is a longer term plan for Rosslare and we are all working together in developing that plan.

May I ask one quick supplementary question about the staffing and skills levels? Now that the country is beginning to open up, we are hoping to see an increase in business activity. Will each of the agencies represented here have sufficient numbers of staff to help things move smoothly? Many of us have not had to deal with customs and so on for quite some time. Is the required level of skills available?

Ms Louise Byrne

A range of supports is available on the gov.ie website. Businesses should make full use of those financial advisory and upskilling supports, especially now that the economy is going to reopen, which is wonderful news. It is important that people make best use of the supports available on the gov.ie Brexit page. I will let my colleague, Ms Sheridan, speak about the staffing issues.

Ms Hazel Sheridan

In answer to the Senator's question, the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine certainly has sufficient capacity in terms of staff but we are keeping the situation under review.

When the country opens up and a lot of hospitality gets going again, we would expect that will increase the amount of controls we have to do. We have approval for the recruitment of additional staff should we need them. We think at the moment we are well set up for any changes that might come in the future.

Ms Ann Marie Part

Regarding staffing, we have enough for what we need to do at the moment. We are keeping a watching brief on it in terms of businesses and the amount of trade and the exportation. In terms of staffing skill set, environmental health officers are a protected profession insofar as everybody must have a bachelor of science degree in environmental health. We have panels of people available to us for immediate recruitment if required.

At this stage, all members who have requested to ask questions have come in. It has been a very informative debate. What prompted the committee to invite the three agencies - the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, the Revenue Commissioners and the Health Service Executive - in together was previous meetings we had, in particular with the Irish Road Haulage Association, the business representative groups and the ports. To be fair, all of the questions have been asked by various members and the answers have been very candid, informative and detailed. I thank the witnesses, not only for their opening statements but their engagement with committee members.

I will make one comment as opposed to asking a question. The message we have received from witnesses at previous meetings is that sometimes there is a feeling it is not as streamlined between the three agencies as it could be for the haulier or the trader, that in particular, with the infrastructure that is currently in place, people are going to different offices and different buildings and it can be a bit difficult to get all their ducks in a row, for the want of a better phrase. There was also a specific request to try to get rid of the physical paperwork and move to digital. That is something to bear in mind. We wanted to get the three agencies into the virtual room together to find out how they are working together in terms of providing that service at the ports to hauliers and the various traders. On behalf of the committee, I ask the witnesses to keep under review how the State agencies can work together in a more aligned way to make it as easy as possible for those coming through the ports, in particular when we might anticipate an increased demand coming through the ports as well.

I have no further questions on behalf of the committee but if any of the witnesses wish to make any final remarks before we bring we bring the meeting to a close, they are welcome to do so. I can see certain hands up, but I am not sure if they are up from a previous occasion. Ms O'Neill's hand is up. Does she wish to come back in?

Ms Celine O'Neill

The commissioner mentioned all the engagement we have had since the beginning of the year, in particular with the Irish Road Haulage Association. If you do not mind indulging me for a moment, Chair, the particular difficulty being faced by those in the haulage sector is that they are moving these goods on behalf of customers but they are not always the declarant, so they are not entitled to a lot of the information around the products or what is causing delays when they arrive. We have been doing a lot of work with that sector in particular to make the experience a bit better. We have a number of developments in train or that have already been released. One of the key concerns from the sector was the manual provision of information. We have developed a number of application programming interfaces, APIs, to allow their computer systems to talk to our computer systems, thereby to reduce the number of interactions and manual interventions. That work is well under way and it is being discussed with the relevant stakeholders. I hope within the next few weeks we will have something available to them and then they can talk to their software provider as well and get that up and running.

The difficulty in providing information is that we need to be concerned with confidentiality, but we have already put in place an email system whereby we can give additional information on movement and what is causing the difficulty, while respecting privacy concerns. That will be a bit more automated as well in the coming weeks.

The customs ro-ro service was mentioned earlier, which is the main method of communication with the haulage sector to indicate whether controls are required when the hauliers arrive. As part of the messaging that is sent through that system, we will be able to give that additional detail automatically going forward instead of having to request it at the moment.

One of the big requests from the sector as well was to be able to see the details of the pre-boarding notification, PBN, that has been provided to Revenue so that the haulier will have a record of all of the different declarations that were included in the PBN, so we will be making that available as well.

One of the other concerns was how they get their routing information, how they know they need to come in for a control when they arrive in Ireland. That did require the driver to look up channel information on the Revenue website. We already have additional functionality in the Customs RoRo service whereby two mobile phone numbers and an email address can be included and the information will be automatically sent to those contact points about 30 minutes before the goods arrive in Ireland. We are also working with the ferry operators to put screens on board that will show the route per vehicle, hopefully in the drivers' lounge.

On non-electronic declarations, the majority of customs declarations are submitted electronically but there are certain declarations, say an ATA Carnet for a temporary admission, which is a paper-based document and unfortunately those do require stops at the port on arrival to verify the paperwork but we are seeing what enhancements we can put in place to try to pre-clear some of those so not all those goods will have to stop in the port when they arrive.

I noticed Mr. Harrahill had his hand up but I got there before him so maybe he might like to come in as well.

I thank Ms O'Neill, that is really positive. It is great that Revenue is moving towards a more automated service. It is going to be music to many people's ears. It looks as if much progress has been made in a short space of time so well done on that front.

Did Mr. Ryan want to come in?

Mr. Joe Ryan

I will defer to the commissioner if he wants to come in there, just for continuity.

Mr. Harrahill put his hand back down. Does he want to come in?

Mr. Gerry Harrahill

The final comment I wanted to make was to reassure the committee in terms of the engagement across the three agencies. The co-operation is excellent. We probably meet and engage on a daily basis if not, on occasion, an hourly basis. We are very mindful of the significance of all of what has happened over the last four months for trade and business. I mentioned that one of our primary objectives is to facilitate legitimate trade and that is very much what our focus continues to be. We will work tirelessly across the agencies to try to optimise the processes and the procedures so they work smoothly for everybody while at the same time fulfilling our obligation as guardians of the Single Market and customs union.

Mr. Joe Ryan

I re-emphasise our commitment to working with business to make things smoother and working with our colleagues in Revenue and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine to automate as best we can. Obviously there are limitations to any systems interaction but also to confidentially and appropriateness so we will observe all that as we develop those systems. Also, as we see our new facilities emerge, particularly in Dublin, the flow of the port - and I am sure that is important to Dublin Port as it is to businesses and ourselves - will be improved just by the nature of where we are going to be located and the nature of the actual facilities being developed.

I call Ms Sheridan.

Ms Hazel Sheridan

Members can see from today's meeting how closely we all work together. We have all been working together for years at this stage and know each other very well so there is very good co-operation.

The same is true for businesses. We have had very constructive engagement with businesses. They are really keen to share information and to try to solve problems collectively and I really encourage that. If people are having difficulties, they should make sure to get in touch with us at the earliest possible opportunity. At the same time, there is a role for business in this as well. We were really clear with businesses ahead of 1 January that the simpler they can make their loads and their trucks, the easier it will be. The more complex they are, the more difficult it is, such as when they require checks by more than one agency. Some of these trucks have 30 or 40 different commodities on them and there are different certification requirements. It really is a very complex business because these are products that are ready for sale and ready to go on supermarket shelves; they are used to shipping them on a regular basis and as I said it really is very challenging to deal with them.

Now that businesses are becoming more familiar with what needs to be checked and which agency needs to carry out the checks, perhaps they could consider streamlining and simplifying their trucks. That is not easy to do in the early days because these are complex supply chains but going forward, it would help to speed up the transit of trucks through the port facilities.

Another step that businesses can take to streamline the processes relates to getting documentation in advance and ensuring it is accurate. That, too, will help to speed up the processes. Every load we deal with that has problems slows down everything, so there is a very important role for businesses in that regard.

The final point to make with regard to SPS controls is that there is a concept in the European legislation known as "the operator responsible for the consignment". It is a person who has legal responsibility for certain matters and they are really important players. They are the go-betweens between us and the haulage firms and the importers and exporters, and they can do an awful lot to help. It has been a significant learning curve for the people who have taken on this role. They have done a fantastic job and I have no doubt that as they become more familiar with it, they will be able to work to help everybody. It is a very important role. It is important that people are clear, and talk to us, about what can be done to streamline the processes. It is not just about us streamlining processes but also about businesses doing the same.

We agree it is about everybody playing their role.

I thank all the officials for attending the meeting. It was a worthwhile and interesting engagement and we have all taken a great deal from it. Our engagement with all our guests will form a significant part of our report when we prepare our interim publication before the summer. It has been probably one of our most important engagements to date because our guests' agencies are on the front line dealing with the considerable changes. In fact, it is a credit to all the State agencies that they have managed to achieve so much in such a short space of time when they did not know until the eleventh hour what the new trading environment would be. We will look back on this in ten or 20 years and be quite amazed at how quickly we adapted and how minimal the impact was on supply chains and customers. We did not really get much of a hit. We had predicted the worst but things fared quite well in the end, and that is a credit to our guests and their staff working around the clock to ensure it was as seamless as possible.

I thank members for their participation. The next public meeting will be held at 3 p.m. on Monday, 17 May, when we will meet representatives of the British Irish Chamber of Commerce to discuss further Brexit issues.

The select committee adjourned at 4.43 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Monday, 17 May 2021.
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