Select Committee on Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth debate -
Wednesday, 4 Oct 2023

Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth (Supplementary).

An Cathaoirleach

We have apologies from Deputy Dillon. The Dáil ordered, on 27 September 2023, that the Supplementary Estimate in respect of Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration, be referred to this committee for consideration. At today's meeting, the committee will consider the Supplementary Estimate and report back to the Dáil. I remind members that only matters relevant to the Supplementary Estimate for 2023 can be discussed at the meeting.

I welcome the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, and his officials. I thank them for the briefing material that was provided in advance of the meeting. This material has been circulated to members in advance of the meeting. Mr. David Delaney, assistant secretary, Ms Sheenagh Rooney, assistant secretary, and Mr. Dermot Ryan, assistant secretary, are here from the Department. The proposed format of the meeting is to invite the Minister to deliver an opening statement. Following that, I will open the meeting up to members for questions.

I will go through some normal housekeeping matters. For anyone joining us remotely, the chat function on MS Teams should only be used to make the team on site aware of any technical issues or urgent matters that may arise during the meeting and should not be used to make general comments or statements.

I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex to participate in public meetings. If members are joining us through Teams, they must confirm whether they are on the Leinster House campus. The Minister and members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.

I thank the Minister for being here and invite him to make his opening statement.

Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth (Deputy Roderic O'Gorman)

I thank the Cathaoirleach and the committee for making time available today to consider the Supplementary Estimate for the Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth Vote. The need for a supplementary at this point occurs principally due to the expectation that the Vote will breach its total allocation before the end of October 2023. The Supplementary Estimate is being sought in respect of two subheads, namely, E4, International Protection Accommodation Service, IPAS, and E5, Ukraine. Additional funding is required, principally to meet the cost pressures occurring due to the extraordinary demands placed on my Department in the discharge of its role in the humanitarian response to the Ukraine crisis and in relation to its response to the exponential growth in the numbers of international protection applicants continuing to arrive in the State over the course of 2023.

Officials from my Department and Department of Public Expenditure, National Delivery Plan Delivery and Reform have been monitoring the expenditure and allocation to the Department by way of fortnightly meetings since the start of the year. It is acknowledged that there was a challenging allocation established for both subheads. A contingency fund was held in reserve as part of the Budget 2023 process. The primary cost driver for both subheads is the cost of accommodation for both existing and new arrivals. In relation to the humanitarian response to the Ukraine crisis, an additional 22,033 temporary protection orders had been granted to the end of August in 2023. This brings the total number of temporary protection orders granted since the start of the war to 92,554. Some 70,000 Ukrainian people are now being accommodated in State funded or supported accommodation. The Government has committed to continue to provide safe shelter for those fleeing the war in Ukraine and as a result, these costs have to be borne by the State and specifically, on my Department’s Vote.

The other area of the Vote experiencing pressures at this time is the International Protection Accommodation Service, IPAS. The service provides accommodation and associated services to international protection applicants and is a demand-led process. The additional funding required in 2023 is due to the cost of accommodation for the hugely increased number of new international protection arrivals. Current expenditure on this subhead is running ahead of profile by 53%. In the main, expenditure relates to costs of accommodation. The profiles from May onwards reflected the impact of the use of a number of levers intended to facilitate a reduction in the demand for accommodation. IPAS is working intensively to support persons with status to move out of IPAS accommodation. However, the number of international protection applicants being accommodated in August remains higher than factored into the allocation. The cost at which applicants are accommodated is adding to this challenge, as we become more reliant on more costly emergency accommodation places.

In recent years, there have been record increases in the number of new arrivals seeking international protection accommodation in Ireland with total numbers accommodated increasing from 7,244 in December 2021 to 18,534 in December 2022. It is projected that this figure will have reached over 25,000 by December this year. More than 24,000 applicants were being accommodated as of August this year. My Department will continue to work with Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform to monitor expenditure on the Vote.

I recommend the supplementary estimate for the Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth Vote to the committee. I will be happy to address any questions members may have.

An Cathaoirleach

It is very straightforward. I do not know if there will be many questions. I will go to members. Deputy Costello is first and then Deputies Sherlock and Brady.

Deputy Patrick Costello

There are many aspects of this that we could talk about that are probably outside the remit of this committee, such as education, health and areas in the responsibility of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. Given it is the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth who is here, does he feel he is getting sufficient support from his Cabinet colleagues to meet the needs of these communities, that is those seeking international protection?

An issue that has been raised with me by constituents and some of those seeking international protection living locally is the stability of placements. I appreciate that when trying to get accommodation for such numbers in an unprecedented way, it can be very difficult. There have been places where communities are accommodated and are starting to put down roots, attend schools, etc. but then the contract for provision of that placement ends. Those people do not know where they are going and then they are uprooted. We also see this with homeless services. There is an issue in respect of the stability of placements. Can the Minister speak on that or the work that is being done to support that?

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

My Department’s response to the crisis arising from Ukraine is part of the all-of-government response. That is co-ordinated through a Cabinet sub-committee. That innovation, which took place about six months into the crisis, was hugely important in giving us a forum where all the Ministers whom the Deputy mentioned were present and the Departments of Social Protection, Education, Health, Housing, Local Government and Heritage and the Office of Public Works, OPW, were all around the table.

They were all speaking to what we are doing in our individual Departments.

As an offshoot of that, we have an accommodation working group that is led by Conn Murray, former chief executive of Limerick City and County Council. He is looking in more detail at specific new accommodation solutions that can be applied. The Cabinet committee is particularly important. Each other line Department I have referenced is making significant contributions. The Department of Social Protection is overseeing the payment of the allowances to support those in pledged accommodation and the payment of social protection supports for those Ukrainians who are here. Local authorities, supported by the Department of Housing, Local Government Heritage, are doing a huge amount. They all now have a designated member of their senior executive team dealing with Ukraine.

In terms of the stability of places, we are accommodating 70,000 people and never said we could provide absolute stability. We said what we offer is shelter and safety. Obviously, stability is particularly important for children. We have created a range of mechanisms to accommodate people, including modular, refurbished, vacant homes and pledged accommodation. Some 13,000 people are involved in that, which gives a sense that there are real people living in very real homes. There have been times when we have had to move people out, usually when a contract ends or, on occasion, has to be cancelled. Such arrangements comprise only a small number in the wider scale of things, but those instances do occur.

Where there are issues with contracts there have been attempts to work to regularise matters. The team in the Department did a lot of work over the summer to regularise a number of contracts so that we would not have wholesale moves. However, if a provider decides to exit or, on occasion, contracts need to be ended, unfortunately there is disruption. I recognise that. We try to minimise it, but we cannot provide any absolute guarantees. We are not in a position to do that.

Deputy Sean Sherlock

I do not need figures. Is there a system by which the Minister can project or anticipate the demand for services under subhead E4? Is there a internal mechanism or group that deals with that question? As I said, I do not want a figure - if one is available -I just want an understanding of the challenges the Department faces under the subhead E4 in terms of projections.

There is underspend on capital in respect of the purchase of accommodation units of, I understand, €5.7 million. I want to get a sense from the Minister as to how the appointment of approved housing bodies, AHBs, to manage properties purchased on behalf of the Department is working. What is the state of play of that? Given that there is an underspend, and given the demand, why is that the case? I will leave it at that.

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

I thank the Deputy. We do very extensive modelling in terms of the projected numbers of arrivals, but it is just a model and until the week is over we do not know how many will arrive. Since this has been going on for over 18 months, there are some flows we have recognised depending on the time of year. Coming up to Christmas 2022 and into this year, we had a sudden surge. In January, we saw a significant decline. Going into the summer we saw significant numbers, which is why we had to use tented accommodation. We model and every week carry out an assessment of the number of actual arrivals versus the model. That allows us to plan, to our best efforts, on the accommodation side. It allows other Departments to make some plans in terms of education, social protection and the like. As I said, at the moment there are 70,000 in accommodation. Our modelling on the Ukraine side shows 80,000 in accommodation on a no change basis by the end of the year. However, that figure could go up or down depending on arrivals.

As the Deputy knows, I launched the White Paper in early 2021. One element was the delivery of accommodation in the community. In terms of purchasing, we have begun the work. At that point quite a few larger houses and buildings where a number of people could be accommodated were available. I have been very frank about the impact of the Ukraine war having delayed projects. However, we are now working to use the 30 or so properties that we have purchased. We now want to use them for some of our most vulnerable international protection applicants. That includes people who have been trafficked and found by An Garda Síochána, and have then sought international protection. Due to the particular traumas they have experienced, it would be good not to have them in more general international production accommodation which, as we know, can be basic and crowded. Families with a child with a particular disability or individuals with particular disabilities may be housed in this accommodation. That is the plan. We recently signed a contract with an AHB in terms of the operation of those properties. Things will be run by one approved housing body and services provided by another. This will be supported accommodation.

Deputy John Brady

I thank the Minister. There has been a huge increase in funding, which is understandable given the major pressures the State is under in terms of the need to accommodate internationally displaced people and people fleeing the war in Ukraine. Part of the problem with funding is the for-profit system we have. Key players are providing accommodation and are making extraordinary amounts of money. In some cases, albeit limited, they provide what I would class as substandard and overcrowded accommodation, and questionable food on top of that.

In terms of the for profit model, in particular direct provision, the White Paper from 2021 referred to ending direct provision by the end of 2024. The Minister acknowledged that those targets will be difficult to meet. It was stated earlier in the summer that there was to be a revised plan to come before Cabinet last month. Has that plan come before the Cabinet? When will it be published? It will make for interesting reading given that, as the Minister said, the targets will not be met.

It is very difficult to estimate the numbers who will come to seek refuge on these shores. However, the Parliamentary Budget Office has in a pre-budget report estimated that the number of Ukrainians coming to seek refuge on these shores may increase to 110,000 by early next year, based on the current figures of 3,000 Ukrainian refugees seeking and obtaining PPS numbers each month.

Are those the figures the Department is working off? If that is the case, given that the figures are expected to continue to rise, will the €1 billion that we know is needed be part of the budget when it is announced next week as opposed to a contingency arrangement?

I will leave it at that. I have other questions, but perhaps the Minister could respond to those first.

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

We will bring forward the White Paper following the budget. Elements of it are relevant to decisions taken in the budget so we made a determination to hold back until after the budget. Significant work has been done on the revised draft. We hope to be able to publish it soon after the budget.

I absolutely agree with the Deputy on the system we have to use at the moment. Every European country is facing what we know is the biggest movement of people since the Second World War. No European country is equipped to deal with this movement with ready accommodation for people. Other European countries have a surplus of traditional accommodation that we do not have, particularly in view of the real pressure on housing right now. In order to meet our legal obligations but also the obligations the vast majority of us feel we need to undertake, we had to look at what is available us, namely, the use of private sector accommodation. That said, we have made use of pledged accommodation or vacant homes to house 13,000 people. That is a significant number. It is just short of 20% of the number of people we are accommodating on the Ukraine side. We brought forward the modular programme slower than we would have liked, but there are now more than 800 people living in modular accommodation. The lessons from undertaking the modular programme will be valuable for local authorities and approved housing bodies going forward in the context of looking at new ways to address the wider crisis in housing. The secondary benefit of going with the modular pilot was always seeing if we could deliver significant amounts of accommodation at speed and scale.

Regarding budget 2024, my understanding is that like last year, there will be a non-core fund specifically for responding to the war in Ukraine and the wider migration crises. That is important because we are entering the third year in which this has been taking place. It is still a highly unusual situation we are facing in needing to accommodate so many people. As we know, hopefully once the war ends, significant numbers of Ukrainians will seek to return home. With regard to putting it as permanent lines in budgets, I think the approach adopted up to this point has been preferable. However, those decisions are above my paygrade in a way in that they are decided in the Departments and Finance and Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform.

An Cathaoirleach

Does the Deputy have other questions?

Deputy John Brady

Does someone else wish to come in first? No. Regarding the numbers, I outlined that the Parliamentary Budget Office estimated, I think, 110,000 may be here in the early months of next year. I do not know what analysis was done. It is difficult to do. What kind of figures are we looking at? There are challenges and it is not a good situation where anyone has to be housed in a tent. What provision is being made if those figures are believed and there may be 110,000 seeking refuge here? What are the challenges and what is the provision? The Minister outlined the difficulties in terms of delivering modular homes. Key target dates for putting in place the badly needed modular homes were missed consistently. If there are to be 110,000 in the early months of next year, what provision is there to ensure that none of those are in tents? We then have internationally displaced persons as well on top of that. There are many challenges.

There is another area I want to get a view on. It was reported, in the context of the committee on Ukraine on which the Minister sits that there was a discussion with a view to cutting social welfare benefits for Ukrainians. There was a report due on that matter. It was not published.

An Cathaoirleach

There is a vote in the Dáil, so I will have to suspend proceedings. Perhaps the Deputy can ask his questions and the Minister can respond when we come back. We have maybe two minutes before we need to move.

Deputy John Brady

I know the Department carried out its own analysis on social welfare payments to Ukrainians. What is the view on that? Has a decision been made in respect of that matter? Can the report compiled by the Department be published? It would be extremely useful.

An Cathaoirleach

Does the Minister wish to try to reply in two minutes?

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

Some 94,000 Ukrainians have arrived into the country and 70,000 are being directly accommodated by the State. There is always a gap between those here and those we are accommodating. At the moment, around 550 are arriving per week. That gave me the figure I spoke to earlier about 80,000 being accommodated by the end of the year. I am not sure if the figure of 110,000 the Deputy quoted relates to 31 December next or a date in 2024. I am not sure if it refers to people who have been accommodated or who are here.

Deputy John Brady

Sorry. Those are just figures from the budget office as part of its pre-budget report. I do not have any more information on that.

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

I suppose I just look at them in those two categories. The accommodated are the ones I am most concerned because of the obligation on our Department. Whichever figure it is, it is substantial. Whichever figure it is, my Department continues to work to bring on more accommodation. It is difficult and tight, which is why we are using tented accommodation. It is important to recall there are 70,000 being accommodated now on the Ukraine side and about 500 are in tented accommodation. The proportion is small. It has to fall part-----

An Cathaoirleach

Sorry, we will have to suspend. I am cutting it a bit fine. We will suspend and come back after the vote.

Sitting suspended at 5.58 p.m. and resumed at 6.23 p.m.

An Cathaoirleach

We will pick up where we left off, with the Minister replying to Deputy Brady.

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

I answered the question on numbers and made the point that tented accommodation comprised a small proportion. Tented accommodation is temporary accommodation for Ukrainians, with most people in it for two to three weeks before being moved on to vacancies in our existing stock. Coming into the winter, there will be pressure due to the overall number. The team in the Department is continuing to work on providing alternative accommodation solutions and we are engaging in the procurement of additional accommodation. As mentioned, two sites are being worked on for modular accommodation. The refurbishment work being done by us and the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage is ongoing. However, the situation is tight and I have been as upfront as possible throughout about how I cannot rule out any type of accommodation option over the coming months. The Department and I have to keep all options available to us.

The draft papers before the Cabinet committee are Cabinet committee papers and not something that I can commit to publishing on my own any more than I can commit to publishing a Cabinet paper or the like. The Cabinet sees papers that give an account of the response to Ukrainians in other EU member states and keeps an eye on the processes therein. We continue to work within the strictures of the temporary protection directive.

Deputy John Brady

It was reported that the Department had carried out a comparative analysis. My question was on that rather than on Cabinet reports.

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

The comparative analysis is a document of the Cabinet committee.

Deputy John Brady

As part of its documents.

Deputy Roderic O'Gorman

It is being viewed by the Cabinet committee. No more than any other document that goes before the Cabinet, it is not one that I can publish on my own. It is not just a document for our Department. Rather, it is part of a Cabinet committee.

Deputy John Brady

Okay.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank members and the Minister’s officials for attending. It is proposed to publish on the Oireachtas website the opening statements and briefing material provided. Is that agreed? Agreed.