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SELECT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, MARINE AND NATURAL RESOURCES debate -
Wednesday, 17 Nov 2004

EUTELSAT and the European Radiocommunications Office: Motions.

As I explained to the committee, the meeting has been convened for the purpose of the consideration by this committee of two motions, EUTELSAT and the European Radiocommunications Office, referred from the Dáil. I welcome the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Dempsey, and his officials to the meeting. This is the first time the Minister has appeared before the committee since his appointment. Minister, I wish you well. The committee members and I look forward to dealing with you and wish you every success in dealing with the major issues the members of the committee are aware you will face over the coming years.

I wish to advise members that the committee is required to consider the two motions and report back to the Dáil not later than 23 November. Accordingly, when the debate on the motions has been disposed of I will suspend the meeting until 2.30 p.m. at which time the committee will consider the Committee Stage of the Sea Pollution (Hazardous and Noxious Substances) (Civil Liability and Compensation) Bill 2002. During the suspension the clerk to the committee will prepare, copy and circulate to members a draft report on each motion. On disposal of the Bill later today, the committee will consider and finalise the draft reports. Is that agreed? Agreed. I invite the Minister to speak to the motion on EUTELSAT.

The first motion reads:

That Dáil Éireann approves the amendments, approved in May, 1999 by the Assembly of Parties of the European Telecommunications Satellite Organisation, to the Convention establishing the European Telecommunications Satellite Organisation, which originally entered into force in September, 1985, copies of which (including the amendments) were laid before Dáil Éireann on 27th October, 2004.

The second motion reads:

That Dáil Éireann approves the amendments, adopted at Copenhagen on 9th April, 2002 by the Council of the European Radiocommunications Office at its fourteenthordinary meeting, to the Convention for the establishment of the European Radiocommunications Office (ERO) (The Hague 1993), and approves the ratification of the instrument amending the ERO Convention which was signed by the Irish Ambassador to Denmark, subject to ratification, in Copenhagen on 17th December, 2002; copies of the Convention (including the amendments) and an attached copy of the instrument of ratification were laid before Dáil Éireann on 27th October 2004.

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for their welcome. I look forward to working with the committee. I am aware of the work of the committee and in particular its report on the IT area which has been very well received by everybody.

I am bringing before the committee a motion seeking Dáil approval to the amendments to the convention setting up EUTELSAT, the European Telecommunications Satellite Organisation.

Dáil approval is required for Ireland to ratify the amended convention, which allows for the restructuring of EUTELSAT from an intergovernmental organisation providing satellite services into a private company overseen by a restructured intergovernmental oversight body. This is a straightforward ratification of an international agreement.

I will briefly deal with the background to EUTELSAT, the reasons for the restructuring of EUTELSAT, the implementation of the restructuring, the ratification process and the implications of this process. Much of what I say also applies to the second motion and I will not repeat it but rather deal with specific details.

The genesis of EUTELSAT was in the 1970s when the possibilities offered by space were beginning to be embraced by Europe. EUTELSAT was established provisionally in 1977 to provide international telecommunications services using satellites. Ireland joined this arrangement in 1981. In 1985 EUTELSAT was formally established as a European intergovernmental organisation with member states investing in EUTELSAT, the level of investment being in proportion to their use of the system. In Ireland's case responsibility for these investments rested initially with the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, then with Telecom Éireann and finally with Eircom.

Since EUTELSAT was set up in 1985 the international telecommunications market has changed dramatically. Increased liberalisation and ownership changes in telcos have contributed to a seismic change in the environment in which EUTELSAT was operating. Facing increased competition, it was recognised that EUTELSAT needed to restructure if it was to continue to thrive and to be in a position to meet its important basic principles of facilitating satellite communications for public services, particularly telecommunications services and television broadcasting and ensuring non-discriminatory access to and fair competition for all member countries. In order to meet these challenges, EUTELSAT was restructured in July 2001 from an intergovernmental organisation to a private company, EUTELSAT S.A., and an intergovernmental oversight body EUTELSAT, which is based in Paris. This restructuring followed agreement in May 1999 by member states to amend the original convention setting up EUTELSAT.

EUTELSAT oversees the company and ensures that it meets key public service obligations. The relationship between the intergovernmental oversight body and the company, is covered by the amended convention and a subsidiary legally binding agreement. Before the restructuring EUTELSAT had been afforded certain diplomatic privileges. An existing Government order called the European Telecommunications Satellite Organisation (EUTELSAT) (Designation and Immunities) Order 1993, is in place under section 40 of the Diplomatic and Immunities Act as amended. My officials are examining amending secondary legislation in order to amend the privileges and immunities so that they are retained by EUTELSAT and removed from the company in accordance with the amended convention. It is intended that this legislative issue will be tidied up following ratification of the amended agreement by Ireland.

Those who invested in the EUTELSAT before restructuring were entitled to a shareholding in the privatised company. Eircom is entitled to a shareholding of approximately 0.05% of the company. When Eircom was privatised in 1999 its assets transferred with it, including its EUTELSAT shareholding.

The ratification process requires ratification by two thirds of member countries at the time of the agreement to restructure, representing two thirds of the investment share of EUTELSAT. On 31 July 2002 these two requirements were fulfilled. There is currently ratification by 32 of the 46 countries who were party to the agreement to restructure, representing 67.52% of the investment share. In accordance with the convention, the amended convention entered into force 120 days later on 28 November 2002. The proposed amendments have no implications for Exchequer costs or staffing. There is no subscription charge for membership of EUTELSAT. EUTELSAT is financed by the company EUTELSAT S.A.. I wish to emphasise to Deputies that EUTELSAT still remains in place as an intergovernmental oversight body to ensure that the company continues to meet its core principles.

I welcome Mr. Shaun Byneveldt, Speaker of the Western Cape Provincial Parliament of South Africa, together with the Deputy Speaker, Mr. Piet Meyer. They are visiting Ireland with a delegation from the Western Cape Provincial Parliament. I am delighted to welcome them to observe the work of the committee.

This is my first official visit to this committee to meet the Minister in his new official capacity. I congratulate him and wish him well. I offer him hearty, forthright and constructive debate at all times.

I presume the committee is dealing with the two motions together and that the two are coterminous in every sense of the word, being similarly laid out. I support the proposal. I wish to make a few comments.

We are taking them one at a time.

I presume the Minister is making only one speech.

He will make a second one as soon as the committee has dealt with this motion.

I assure the Deputy I will be brief.

Is it agreed that the committee consider both motions together? Agreed.

My only concern is that this follows a restructuring which took place and it is incumbent on the committee to give its approval. Satellites and satellite communications will become a much more important issue in the future than it has been in the past. The original legislation and directives originated in the 1970s and lasted through the 1980s and 1990s. Telecommunications have moved forward in leaps and bounds since then but in this country and in the rest of Europe, there has been very little evidence of the use of satellite as a means of communication compared with the situation in other countries. Satellite positioning can be used in respect of motor vehicles but satellite telecommunications is not so readily available. I propose that one matter needs to be examined in the context of this legislation. Given the health concerns which are sometimes well founded, in respect of the positioning of masts and boosters for mobile telephony, it would be very important to advance the possibilities of satellite communication which currently can be quite expensive. By virtue of its expense and its exclusivity, it will obviously remain that way for a much longer time. As far as the public is concerned, access to satellite communications should be simpler and less expensive. There is competition between the service providers in the context of wireless and cable communications. However, satellite providers do not compete to any great extent in so far as the ordinary domestic or business consumer is concerned. Will the Minister pursue this issue in the Council of Ministers? This would benefit both Irish and European consumers.

I welcome the Minister to the committee and to his new Department. The speech he made in UCD was impressive in the general ambition he seems to have for broadband communications. This is something we hope we will get the opportunity to discuss more fully in the Dáil. I welcome his open approach to the matter.

EUTELSAT is a private company. Where is it registered and in what country is it based? It was privatised with the rest of Eircom and its assets transferred. How much is it worth and is it a valuable company? I did not agree with the sale of Eircom, but, given the key co-ordinating role played by auditory satellite communication, was there an argument for us to hold on to EUTELSAT?

Is the European Radiocommunications Office an EU type body or is it wider than the EU? What is its role? The Minister said he intends bringing in further legislation with regard to EUTELSAT. Would it not have been more appropriate to include the legislation in a section of the radio telecommunications Bill, or one of the upcoming Bills relating to either the ERO or EUTELSAT? Why does the Minister not cover the issue in a short Bill, get it over and done with and have EUTELSAT ratified?

As we have taken the two motions together, I will allow the remaining Deputies ask their questions before the Minister responds.

I take this opportunity to welcome the Minister and wish him the best of luck in his work.

In terms of the ordering of business, it seems that within the past six months the committee dealt with a similar motion regarding legislation for the privatisation of a European agency. Again, Eircom benefited from that. I cannot remember exactly how much was involved, but the State asset had transferred to Eircom at the same time when it was privatised. The Minister may not remember the details because he did not hold the portfolio at the time but perhaps his officials do. My memory should be better, but it feels like "Groundhog Day" as we are dealing with a motion similar to one we passed only six months ago. Will the Minister explain the similarities, if possible?

I too welcome the Minister who is a friend, a colleague and a neighbour. He is an excellent communicator and I am delighted to see him here as I have every faith in him. I also welcome the Speaker and the delegation of the Western Cape Provincial Parliament again. They are welcome. I hope they have an enjoyable visit to our country and that they fill in the forms correctly on their return.

I wish to raise the matter of the progress made and expected by the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources with regard to broadband. When we were promoting broadband a year or two ago people did not realise its value and importance, but now everybody does. People with broadband tell me they just cannot believe how fast and efficient it is. I am delighted that my town, Longford, has broadband, but it was a local man and firm who led the way, not a national company. These are only beginning to follow now. We also have broadband in Lanesboro, thanks to the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Ó Cuív. Granard, County Longford will have broadband shortly, thanks to the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources and a joint venture with Eircom. The Government will provide 40% and Eircom 60% of the necessary funds. It is time this was done. I look forward to a bright future for communications. The Minister and his predecessor led, are leading and will continue to lead the way. They have the vision and understanding to promote and deliver better communications.

I will try to touch on all the points raised by members. I thank all the members for their good wishes on my appointment. I look forward to working with everybody. I try, particularly when dealing with legislation, to listen to what everybody has to say. I am a humble man and if good ideas are put forward, I have no difficulty accepting that somebody has a better idea than I have.

That is unusual for a Meath man.

Meath men always get their retaliation in first; I was just doing that there.

Deputy Durkan made the point that there was little evidence of the use of satellites here. EUTELSAT has granted 90 licences in Ireland. Therefore, it is quite widely used. Satellites like INTELSAT, Astra etc. are also used, mainly by private companies. The only State body I know of using these is RTE.

EUTELSAT is registered in Paris. As it is not a publicly quoted company, details on it and its assets are not public. We do not know what the company is worth per se, but its revenue last year was €760 million and its net income was €270 million. The company has debts of €873 million. Eircom’s share in the company is 0.05%. Perhaps somebody here can do the maths on that. I did not have time to work it out on the calculator for the Deputy. The share does belong to Eircom because when the State sold Eircom it sold it with all its assets for €8.5 billion.

Deputy Broughan asked about the ERO. It is wider than Europe in its remit. It is, however, an advisory body to all of the European regulators. Deputy Ryan rightly referred to the similarity of this to another agency. My officials tell me the committee considered the position regarding INTELSAT, one of the other agencies I mentioned, a few months ago. That was restructured along similar lines for the same reasons and the motion was passed earlier in the summer. The ERO is an international agreement. It is not appropriate to amend the convention in national legislation and we will have to go through the same procedure in that case.

Deputies Kelly and Broughan both spoke about problems relating to the rolling out of broadband. I am absolutely committed to doing that. As things stand, we will not meet our targets by next year. I would welcome a full and frank discussion with the committee about what is happening with broadband and what we are trying to do through our metropolitan area networks, MANs, and through our group broadband schemes. I encourage Deputies to participate actively in promoting group broadband schemes. Deputy Kelly mentioned a private individual in Longford being responsible for the provision of broadband in the town. That is now possible throughout the country. We have the providers, we have a group broadband scheme and we are paying grants to local communities to take up the scheme. I look forward to a full discussion with the committee on these issues in the near future.

Minister, you are aware that the committee published a report containing 12 recommendations. I do not know how the Department sits with those recommendations. I was horrified, when the committee recently went to Singapore on a fact finding mission, to see what has been achieved there and to find that those 12 recommendations are totally obsolete. I am sure one would find the same in Korea and other countries. That was an important start for us.

I was delighted to see the Minister and his colleague, the Minister for Education and Science, working together on the roll-out of broadband for schools. The Government's commitment to bridging the digital divide is very important. Not only must infrastructure be provided on the ground and into people's houses, we must also train people. The community application of information technology programme, CAIT, which was run by the Minister's Department when it was responsible for public enterprise, is very important in getting more people to use the Internet.

The committee also made recommendations regarding tax incentives, including an important chapter on scrappage. The Minister received a copy of that report when he was Minister for Education and Science. He remarked favourably on it and committed himself to it. This is a matter which the committee should consider in the new year. The committee's programme is full until the end of this year. We are working on an energy module the public hearings on which we hope to complete in January and we must then consider the question of issuing a report.

Deputy Kelly made no reference to Edgeworthstown, where there is also a broadband optical link. The Minister recently met the chief executive of Eircom and the famous Mr. McRedmond, who recently spent two or three hours battling with the committee regarding the horrendous failures of Eircom in its national obligations on broadband and basic land line provision. Have Mr. Nolan and Eircom made proposals to the Minister and the Minister for Finance on accelerating the broadband roll-out over the next number of weeks, particularly in the context of budget day?

We will soon be making an announcement in Edgeworthstown. If the Government continues as it is going we will have broadband in every town and village not alone in County Longford but throughout Ireland. The Government's broadband policy is contained in the plan for Government. Our party was the only one with a broadband policy and we will pursue it to the last. Before the Government completes its term of office broadband will be available everywhere. Lanesboro, Granard and Longford town have been completed. We hope to do Drumlish, Ballinamuck, Ballymahon and Newtownforbes. We will cover them all.

We are going a little off track.

The Labour Party is hoping to have a Deputy in Longford after the next election.

It will. It will also have one in Longford-Westmeath.

The Minister has said he would like to meet the committee again to discuss broadband and telecommunications. Would that be a more appropriate time for him to answer Deputy Broughan's questions?

He might not mind giving a brief answer.

The series of meetings I have had have been largely listening exercises for me. I wish to hear all sides of the story regarding broadband, postal services and so on. I used the opportunity of my meeting with Eircom to reiterate the Government's desire and commitment to roll out broadband as fast as possible. The co-operation and partnership of Eircom are essential to the success of that approach and I made that clear. I also requested Eircom's full co-operation and support.

The Government decided on the MANs programme because the private sector was not rolling out broadband quickly enough. There is no secret about the Government's unhappiness with that failure. So far, I have found Eircom to be very co-operative in taking a partnership approach to rolling out broadband as quickly as possible. That was my experience of the two gentlemen referred to by Deputy Broughan. In the past they may not have received support at higher levels in the company. That may have been a difficulty, but so far I am happy that Eircom realises the national importance of its infrastructure in providing broadband. I will press the company to ensure that we keep to the timetables and numbers in rolling out the broadband system throughout the country.

Early in the new year we will take an opportunity to tease this matter out in more detail. We cannot do so today. The Minister has asked that these motions be taken because he has other business.

The Minister must be glad he is responsible for communications and not for transport, where other companies might have landed him in difficulties. Is there any reason the committee did not take the motions regarding EUTELSAT and INTELSAT at the same time, given that they are so similar and were ratified several years ago so there was no immediate urgency? Could they not have been taken together?

With regard to related issues of broadband and satellite, are any of the licences using the EUTELSAT for the provision of broadband satellite services, as exists in Caherciveen and elsewhere? Is there a cost implication in it going private rather than being developed by a publicly owned organisation? Does the Minister have concerns in that regard?

We do not know whether it is being used for broadband. There is no reason for taking the motions separately, other than the ordering of business. They are very similar.

It would have made more sense.

People wanted to consider them, and rather than discuss them all at once it was decided to deal with them one after the other.

The select committee will suspend until 2.3 p.m. when we will consider the Sea Pollution (Hazardous and Noxious Substances) (Civil Liability and Compensation) Bill 2002.

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