I wish I could be as clear in my mind as is Deputy Fiona O'Malley in respect of this matter. The Bill was presented to us some months ago, hastily and without proper discussion with the fishing industry and this committee. However, that is history.
We were initially told that we were obliged to comply with European regulations and directives and that these had to be implemented post haste. Arising from that information, several members took time out at short notice to visit Brussels and meet a number of interested persons — MEPs and others — to discuss the issue and to ascertain where we and the Bill stood vis-à-vis Europe. During the visit, the clear majority of the MEPs we met — not all were Irish, some being from Scotland, the Azores and elsewhere — stated that Ireland stuck out like a sore thumb in so far as it is the only country other than the United Kingdom that does not have a regime of administrative fines as part of its legislation. Subsequently — perhaps one or two days later — the Commissioner visited Ireland and met industry representatives in Kenmare, as adverse weather conditions meant a planned meeting in Castletownbere could not go ahead. He felt that, instead of different approaches being adopted in different member states throughout Europe, there should be a unified approach and an administrative sanctions scheme should be considered.
There are 220 amendments before the committee, some from the Government, which I welcome, and some from Opposition members. When my opposition to parts of this Bill began, I had four main issues. To be fair, the Minister has addressed three of the four, either in whole or in part. However, the critical issue is the question of criminal sanctions versus administrative fines. While I may be forced to take a different view, as the matter stands, I am obliged, as a member of the committee and a representative of a coastal constituency, to outline that it is absolutely unfair that, as regards minor issues, fishermen should be brought through the Circuit Court on indictment and face extensive fines and automatic confiscation of their gear, which does not apply to foreign vessels, and catches. This process would involve an average of €30,000 to €40,000 in legal costs, not alone to fishermen but also to the State, given the involvement of solicitors and barristers. It would also involve the transport of fishermen, perhaps from west Cork to Donegal or Galway, to face criminal charges, with more or less automatic criminal sanctions being imposed on them.
I have suggested that some form of classification or codification of offences should apply to the sea fishing industry. Criminal sanctions are already in place. Some people speaking at the weekend indicated that this Bill is introducing criminal sanctions but these have been in place since the merchant shipping days of the 1830s and 1840s. In 1959 the Fishing (Consolidation) Act copper-fastened that position in Irish law and additional changes have been made since then.
I agree that it is intended that fines and penalties in some areas should be increased in the Bill. The fishing industry will be the first to accept that, in the case of serious fishing infringements, whether by Irish fishermen or their EU counterparts, serious sanctions should be put in place, perhaps more serious than those which currently apply. However, the kernel of the matter, and what the fishing organisations have been saying — the Irish South and West Fishermen's Association and other organisations have been saying it ad nauseam for the past two to three years — since before publication of the Bill is that, with regard to relatively minor issues, it will compel fishermen to be brought to the Circuit Court to face huge financial sanctions. The latter will be distinct from the moral opprobrium and legal sanctions they will be obliged to face. The men concerned are facing many difficulties in the fishing industry, including rising fuel costs and diminishing stocks. They are being dragged through the courts and facing considerable criminal sanctions. We should classify the offences such that the minor ones could be dealt with by the District Court, of which there is one in Castletownbere and nearly every coastal town. Cases could be dealt with in the District Court the following day or a couple of weeks later, at no great expense to the fishermen travelling to the court, and with no need for barristers and other legal experts. Instead of being fined thousands of euro and having one’s equipment confiscated, one could be fined a sum of, say, €500 for a minor offence. One could live with this. It is important to realise this because a man with a clean track record could be caught for a minor technical offence and be dragged through the courts, thereby costing him as much money in one day as it would possibly to buy fuel for his boat for two or three months. This is wrong, morally and otherwise.
Like Deputy O'Keeffe, I am very perplexed because there are diverse views coming from two eminent lawyers. We have the advice of the Attorney General who obviously has no obligation to advise us, given that his duty is to advise the Government, and the clear independent advice of a senior counsel that administrative sanctions or on-the-spot fines for minor offences should be imposed if we are to conform with EU guidelines. Are we to move in tandem with the rest of Europe regarding the fishing industry? If we have a Common Fisheries Policy, why do we not have common rules, regulations and laws? It is not that all countries in Europe are different because, with the exception of Ireland in particular, they are united on this issue.
On the one hand, we were told there was a mandate from the European Union to bring forward this law urgently — that argument seems to have diminished or gone away — and, on the other, we were told there was a constitutional impediment to pushing through this Bill. I have always had reservations about this. The impediment was that under Irish law and the Constitution, we could not impose administrative fines. It is clear from groups such as the Law Society and inland fisheries services that such fines are in place and can work.
I am happy with many provisions in the Bill but I am very concerned that we will make an error that we will have to revisit in six or nine months. I came here early this morning to debate the amendments and have not studied the response of the Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, to the letter sent by the Chairman last week. I am very anxious to have the relevant issues teased out as they are serious. If we can address this matter — the fishing organisations and entire committee are more or less ad idem on other issues — we can argue whether a fine should be set at €10,000 or €15,000 and I am sure there will be a happy medium. However, why we are different from other European countries is a burning issue that has troubled me and the fishing organisations from County Donegal to County Cork. If there is no constitutional impediment, it is time to list 40 or 50 minor offences and state they can be dealt with by the District Court, with more serious offences being dealt with separately. I would be the first to say that if a fisherman was fishing stocks under threat, he should not get a slap on the hand but face the full rigour of criminal charges. Some of those involved in the media are printing that we all have our pockets full of fish or money from the fishing industry and that we are being led up the garden path. That is not the case. The issue at hand is clear and simple and it is one about which I am very concerned.
I do not have a problem taking Committee Stage today but believe that, in the light of the correspondence issued by the Minister and the independent legal advice received, we should first seek clarity to see where we stand. If, having done do, I am proved wrong, I will be the first to bow to superior knowledge. I will also inform the fishing organisations of that fact. As of now, I am not satisfied.
