SELECT COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS, MARINE AND NATURAL RESOURCES debate -
Tuesday, 16 May 2006

Vote 30 — Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources (Revised).

Chairman

I will outline the procedure for covering the Estimates. From now until 2.20 p.m. we will hear the opening statement of the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Noel Dempsey, on subheads A.1 to A.8, inclusive, F.1 to F.4, inclusive, G.1 and G.2, H.1 to H.6, inclusive, I, J, K and L. At the end of the Minister's presentation we will hear the opening statement of the Fine Gael, Labour Party and Technical Group spokespersons. From 2.50 p.m. to 4 p.m. there will be general questions on Vote 30 on the aforementioned subheads. The timetable will be as follows: 2.50 p.m. to 3 p.m., subheads A.1 to A.8, inclusive, pertaining to the administrative budget; 3 p.m. to 3.10 p.m., subheads F.1 to F.4, inclusive, pertaining to petroleum services, energy conservation, grants for gas networks and energy RTDI programme; 3.10 p.m. to 3.15 p.m., subheads G.1 and G.2, pertaining to information and communications technology programme and multimedia developments; 3.15 p.m. to 3.25 p.m., subheads H.1 to H.6, inclusive, pertaining to the grant to RTE for broadcasting licence fees, grant-in-aid, the payment to An Post for the collection of broadcasting licence fees; the Broadcasting Commission, grant-in-aid; RTE — deontas i leith Teilifís na Gaeilge, grant-in-aid, the broadcasting fund and grants for digital terrestrial television; 3.25 p.m. to 3.35 p.m., subheads I.1 to I.5, inclusive, change management fund for non-commercial bodies funded by the Department; 3.30 p.m. to 3.35 p.m., subheads J and K pertaining to other services; 3.35 p.m. to 3.40 p.m., appropriations-in-aid; 3.40 p.m., concluding remarks of the Fine Gael Party spokesperson; 3.45 p.m., concluding remarks of the Labour Party spokesperson; 3.50 p.m., concluding remarks of the Technical Group party spokesperson; and 3.55 p.m., concluding remarks by the Minister to conclude at 4 p.m.

The schedule concerning the Minister of State, Deputy Browne, will commence at 4 p.m. He will make his opening statement between 4 p.m. and 4.10 p.m. on subheads B.1 to B.4, inclusive, C.1 and C.2, D.1 to D.5, inclusive, and E. From 4.10 p.m. to 4.20 p.m. we will hear the opening statement of the Fine Gael Party spokesperson; from 4.10 p.m. to 4.20 p.m, the opening statement of the Labour Party spokesperson; and from 4.10 p.m. to 4.20 p.m., the opening statement of the Technical Group spokesperson. At 4.40 p.m., there will be a general question and answer session on Vote 30.

Are the schedules agreed?

Mr. Broughan

Would it be possible to finish before 4.45 p.m. as members may want to attend the Order of Business?

Chairman

A photograph is to be taken on the plinth with the Taoiseach to mark the 80th anniversary of Fianna Fáil.

Mr. Broughan

I will not go to that but I would not mind attending the Order of Business. It would be good if we could attend. Could we leave at 4.40 p.m. or 4.45 p.m.?

Chairman

We will see how it goes. What time is the Deputy suggesting?

Mr. Broughan

I suggest 4.45 p.m.

Chairman

Certainly, provided the Minister of State is available. Has every member received a copy of the Estimates?

Mr. Durkan

I have now.

Chairman

The Estimates have not changed but there is an urgent amendment to the speech of the Minister of State which was sent by e-mail just before lunch. Did members receive a copy?

Mr. Broughan

I did.

Chairman

It was marked urgent in the sense that it was additional.

I welcome the Minister. We have agreed the format of the meeting, the purpose of which is to consider the Revised Estimates for the Minister's Department. On 23 February Dáil Éireann ordered that they be referred to this committee for consideration. The Minister's opening statement will take no longer than 20 minutes and we hope to conclude this part of the proceedings by 3.55 p.m. to allow the Minister of State to appear at 4 p.m. Members are anxious to finish before the Order of Business. I have invited them to meet at the plinth at 5.15 p.m. but they have declined the invitation. It is important that we conclude the proceedings before that time. We will consider first subheads A.1 to A.8, inclusive, F.1 to F.4, inclusive, G.1 and G.2, H.1 and H.6, inclusive, I, J, K and L. We will then consider subheads B.1 to B.4, inclusive, C.1 and C.2, D.1 to D.5, inclusive, and E. A draft timetable was circulated to members and has been agreed. I thank the Minister, the Minister of State and officials from the Department for attending.

Minister for Communications Marine, and Natural Resources (Mr. N. Dempsey)

The Estimate is firmly focused on the delivery of a range of policies set by the Government and will ensure continued progress in the priorities set out by it. The 2006 Vote reflects a process of transformation that began in 1997. The goal is to address the sectoral challenges and underpin enhanced competitiveness, sustainable growth, regionally balanced development and an inclusive society. The breadth and diversity of the Vote reflects the Department's wide-ranging remit. Everything we do supports the common themes of competitiveness, sustainable growth, regionally balanced development and an inclusive society. Examples of this include expenditure on marine and energy research, fishery harbours and infrastructure, telecommunications and the digital hub. Sustainability and inclusion are key challenges in the midst of current economic growth. We will ensure a continuing focus on sustainability across sectors such as energy, mining and fishing.

Our sustainable energy initiatives represent investment in a better environment for the future. Across priority programmes we are working to optimise social and economic outcomes from development. The energy and communications sectors have vital roles in delivering a competitive economy. My Department and its agencies are focused on necessary capacity, connectivity and access.

The all-Ireland dimension is important because we are moving progressively towards all-Ireland markets. The creation of a single wholesale electricity market by July 2007 is a priority under the all-island energy market development framework. Some €2.5 million is being provided for the Commission for Energy Regulation for this purpose. My Department is working with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment in Northern Ireland to facilitate the creation of the market. I am committed to developing North-South co-operation in areas within my remit. Government approval for the detailed drafting of the single market electricity Bill was granted on 25 April. The Exchequer's €12.7 million contribution towards the development of the gas network in Northern Ireland is another example of North-South collaboration.

Research, development and innovation are fundamental to sectoral and national policy objectives and building the knowledge society. New research and development strategies for energy and the marine are being developed and will set the directions to 2010 and beyond. Practical evidence of support in this Estimate is the €30 million funding for marine research, a matter the Minister of State, Deputy Browne, will address, and funding of over €4 million for energy research.

The Minister of State and I discussed strategy with representatives of the fishing industry last week. The committee will be aware that, following those detailed talks, the Minister of State and I announced plans for the development of a comprehensive strategy to take the sector forward. This strategy will outline a path for the development of a sustainable profitable future for the sector. I welcome the sense of urgency and commitment on the part of the industry to work closely with the Government in the development of the strategy. There is now a shared understanding that the problems besetting the industry are of a structural nature that need to be tackled in a concerted and focused manner. The involvement of the industry and the coastal communities in which it is operating is absolutely essential to ensure a workable and effective plan is put together. We hope to have that strategy completed by the end of September. Its development will involve, among other matters, the establishment of a forum that will bring together industry representatives and key sectoral players, together with experts from the food and related sectors.

I refer to specific highlights in the communications and energy areas. Almost €40 million is provided for communications and multimedia development. The communications sector is of fundamental importance to the economy and a significant factor in determining national economic competitiveness. Communications networks are an essential tool of technology literate and technology dependent workers.

In 2005 there was strong growth for broadband, with increased take-up in both the SME and residential markets. The latest assessment indicates that there are approximately 320,000 broadband subscribers in Ireland. This represents growth of 110% over the previous 12 months, ranking Ireland as one of the fastest growing broadband markets in Europe. Unlike many services, broadband prices in Ireland fell by 25% during 2005 and are now well below the EU average. My Department, with ComReg, will host an event in the autumn aimed at raising awareness of broadband and some of its practical applications.

It is because broadband has become such an essential tool of industry, commerce, education, health care and social inclusion that the Government is investing, with EU support, in nationwide open access broadband. This Estimate, together with the 2005 carryover, provides almost €37 million for continued investment in this area. The investment in the construction of the metropolitan area networks, MANs, is paving the way for the establishment of quality broadband infrastructure in every corner of the country. Some 27 phase 1 MANs have been completed and work is about to commence on phase 2, with more than 90 towns with populations in excess of 1,500 to be provided with high speed, open access broadband networks. The county and group broadband scheme offers even the most remote communities the chance to have access to broadband. To date, 162 projects have been approved, which will bring broadband to 575 communities with a combined population of 420,000.

During 2005 broadband was rolled out to schools in a joint Government and industry initiative giving all schools the opportunity to educate the future workers in knowledge intensive jobs. The initiative is expected to be substantially completed by the end of May. Over 3,400 schools have already been enabled in one of the largest IT roll-out projects in the State.

Some €3.1 million has been provided for multimedia development and, in particular, the work of the Digital Hub Development Authority. I highlight its engagement with the local community.

Over €22 million is being provided for the energy conservation subhead to support the implementation of energy conservation programmes and promote alternative energy sources. This represents an increase of some 38% on the 2005 provision and reflects the Government's commitment to energy conservation and the development of renewable energy sources.

In the area of renewable heat and transport I have launched a range of new initiatives to promote the use of alternative, environmentally sustainable fuels and heating systems. Like most EU member states, Ireland is still at a very early stage in developing biofuels policy. A pilot mineral oil tax relief scheme for biofuel projects was introduced in 2005. In budget 2006 a new scheme was announced, costing €205 million in excise forgone. This is a major new departure and aims to place Ireland firmly on the map in terms of European biofuels production. Work is ongoing to put in place a clear policy framework for the development of the biofuels market, taking into account the various perspectives of all relevant sectors, including transport and agriculture.

In the renewable heat area, we announced in budget 2006 a major new multi-annual grant package of €65 million for renewable energy projects. It includes grants for domestic renewable heat technologies, medium and large-scale biomass boilers for the services, business and industrial sectors and programmes of investment and combined heat and power and grants for the development of biofuels facilities in Ireland. These initiatives complement the existing programmes being rolled out by SEI.

We also launched the first initiative under the budget 2006 programme on 27 March — the greener homes grant programme — which will provide €27 million over a five-year period to support the conversion to renewable heat systems in over 10,000 homes. Wood chip and wood pellet boilers and stoves and solar and heat pump technologies are all grant aided under the programme — typically at approximately 40% of the capital costs. That reflects the strong commitment of the Government to encourage people to install renewable heat systems. Following the successful launch of that programme, I have asked SEI to prioritise the development of a grant programme for commercial biomass heating systems and combined heat and power, which I intend to launch shortly.

The EU 13.2% target for electricity from renewable energy sources equates to approximately 1,450 MW of installed generating capacity to be operational to the electricity network by 2010. The additional new capacity required to achieve the 1,450 MW target will be delivered in two ways. The new REFIT programme, which replaces the AER programme, will allow project developers to contract with any licensed electricity supplier up to notified fixed prices. That scheme will cost €119 million over the 15 years and will support the construction of at least 400 MW of new and renewable capacity on the system. Projects currently under construction and build rates over the past two years indicate that the 1,450 MW target will be delivered at a minimum. Wind target technology will be the dominant technology in achieving that aim.

I have already emphasised the importance of research and development to the Government and in this Estimate, €4.1 million is being provided under subhead F.4 to support the development of an energy research, technology, development and innovation programme. We are looking at a much more co-ordinated and structured approach in regard to the creation and maintenance of RTDI capacity in this energy area.

Some €251 million is provided for broadcasting this year. The forecast licence revenue of over €209 million will provide for grant aid of almost €188 million to RTE, licence collection costs of €11.4 million and a contribution of almost €10 million to the broadcasting fund. I am particularly pleased to have secured an additional €5 million in funding for TG4. The provision of a national free-to-air digital terrestrial television transmission network regulated in Ireland is a broadcasting policy priority. Some €6 million will support the roll-out of the DTT pilot. I originally announced the commencement of the roll-out of infrastructure for the digital terrestrial television pilot. Under that procurement process, expressions of interest and tenders had to be sought for various aspects of the DTT infrastructure build. After expert and independent evaluation, the winning tenders have been selected and that project will get under way later this year. RTE Transmission Networks Limited, which maintains Ireland's international co-ordinated high-power broadcast sites, will assist in the development and operation of the pilot project. As I said, we expect it to be operational by mid-August and it is planned to continue the pilot over a two-year timeframe.

I assure the committee that decentralisation is moving ahead. Our ongoing experience of successfully operating with regionalised structures and of dealing with the challenges of dispersal helps us in this regard. Phase one will see coastal zone and seafood divisions move to Clonakilty by 2007. In a later phase, the Department headquarters and divisions are due to move to Cavan by 2009. In that regard, I am driving the Department's programme to have an advance party of staff in Cavan in the next couple of months. I also welcome the successful relocation of the Marine Institute to Galway in March. The facilities are due to formally open in June 2006. This is a practical example that decentralisation can be achieved by a specialist agency in the public sector.

The Vote expenditure in 2006 is focused on my explicit policy priorities in a clear strategic focus. In addition, it underpins their delivery across a wide range of economic, environmental and social objectives. Key themes underlying our sectoral programmes are enhanced competitiveness, sustainable growth, regionally balanced development and an inclusive society. I commend the Vote to the committee.

Chairman

I thank the Minister for sticking to the time allocated. There will be three opening statements. I do not want to get involved in a major discussion on any topic because to remind members, we will engage with the Minister and his Department on 14 June in regard to our recently published broadband report. I know the Minister will look forward to that discussion with us. I do not want to engage in an argument about figures or about who is or is not doing what. We can save that discussion for 14 June.

I should also mention to Members that we have agreed our energy report and recommendations, which will be published on Thursday, 1 June and which we hope will add value to the process and will be helpful to the Minister, his officials and the policy makers in the Department as they devise their policy documents and proposals.

This week the committee will meet Ofcom and the BBC to discuss the digital television platform which will be helpful to the Department when we discuss the issue and when we consider the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland Bill which is due to be published shortly. This committee has been requested by the Government, through the Chief Whip, to engage with citizens by way of e-democracy. It is important the committee is informed of what is happening in the UK and in other jurisdictions in regard to the digital platform. I ask Members to confine their remarks to the Estimates and save all the other bruising items for a later date.

Mr. Durkan

I would hate to deprive the Chairman and others of an odd bruising because that goes with the game. After the match on Sunday last, I would have thought all Meath representatives would be very mindful of the niceties of the Queensberry Rules and that there would be no blows below the belt, which would be worn loosely down around the ankles.

I welcome the introduction of the Estimates, although I must say a few things which, unfortunately, will be a little critical. The benefit of the all-island market was mentioned, although it is not as great a benefit as is presumed. However, it is an improvement on our current situation. I would like it to be borne in mind that an extension of the existing market will be beneficial to competitiveness but will only provide us with the needful for a short period of time. In the long term, we must look at a wider market, including the UK and the Continent.

It may have escaped me but I did not see a reference to the need for interconnectors. Provision has been made for the proposed North-South interconnectors. The critical ones, which need to come on stream, are the east-west interconnectors. If our economy continues to grow, as it has done and as it needs to do, we will have to bring on stream the east-west interconnectors and find a way to provide them at the earliest possible date. That is particularly so in the context of the Minister's policy on the development of wind energy. As we grow the percentage of wind generated electricity, we will need to rely on a solid replacement in order to provide the backup. Various experts from around the world will say it is safe to do X, Y or Z and that the wind blows most of the time. As the wind does not blow everywhere all of the time, we need a reliable backup. Whoever is in Government after the next general election must concentrate on that as a matter of urgency. This matter will not go away.

In the development of an energy policy, we must keep in mind the fact we do not have the backup on which other countries in Europe rely, namely, nuclear energy. We should not be obliged to do that. We are in a unique situation and can develop our energy policy in the context of other renewables without endangering the environment in any way. We should proceed fearlessly in this regard.

If any criticism is to be made of the Minister and his predecessor, it is that the energy industry is being developed here later than should have been the case. The steps being taken should have been taken five or six years ago, although they may not have been as popular then because international fuel prices were not as high and our minds would not have been so concentrated on the issue.

Other countries took steps five, ten, 15 or, in some cases, 20 years ago. I take with a grain of salt the achievements some of them claim to have realised because they are not all as they appear. I would like to see more emphasis on the interconnector as soon as possible. Energy and communications are now serious parts of the critical infrastructure, equivalent to road and rail networks, etc. We need to realise that if we are to develop a reliable alternative energy system, we must spend money on it and devote time and energy to research and development.

I am glad the Minister — in line with my party's policy on energy — prescribed a centre of excellence that will drive people forward in terms of researching, developing and pursuing the various alternatives. That is of major importance as we proceed into the next phase of energy requirements. Without a driving force in the form of a co-ordinating body with research, testing and other capabilities, it cannot succeed. The emphasis will fall elsewhere because there are other competing demands.

The allocation of €40 million for telecommunications is sizeable but, in today's terms, it is not regarded as much. The senior executives in some medium-sized companies would command similar resources. We have not kept pace with international developments in the provision of either broadband or the development of modern telecommunications. We seem to pursue the soundbite of e-Government and enabling the community outside to be involved in Government business and in saying this I intend no disrespect to the Chairman.

Chairman

The Deputy means Oireachtas business. That has nothing to do with the Government.

Mr. Durkan

Such behaviour does not cut the mustard with the business community, which does not care two pins for all the discussion among the Government, those on the Front and back benches and members of the population at large. It requires the development of a technological system in keeping with best practice worldwide, which delivers on time, every time.

Unfortunately, somebody has failed because we have not realised our goals in that area or achieved the promised targets. The Minister said that he set targets, which he did but that was the second set of targets. Resetting targets does no justice to either the Minister or his Department. For whatever reason, whether inability to tackle local loop unbundling or a failure to tackle the various alternatives, such as combinations of copper wire and wireless or cable, we did not deal quickly enough with the area of communications infrastructure. We did not get to the starting line in time.

If we are not very careful, we will be the poor relations in that regard in the European league. We have been dragging at the tail end of the field, as one of the last three or four countries, for some time, whereas once we were among the first two or three. A warning should be sounded.

While I do not wish to encroach on my colleague's territory, the Minister said that, to date, 162 projects in the group broadband development have been approved. This will bring broadband to 575 communities with a combined population of 420,000. That is only window-dressing. It has not come any closer to the people in the Black Valley in County Kerry. This is a classic example of a situation with which modern technology should deal. We prove our worth when we are capable of taking on something of a high-tech nature. If we are not capable of that we fail in the eyes of all around us.

If the Meath full back consistently kicks the ball out only 20 m., someone will get the notion that he is unable to kick it any further. In the same way, if we fail to tackle a problem such as the telecommunications requirements in the Black Valley, someone will get the impression that we lack the technical know-how or the necessary willpower, or that we have some other reason not to tackle it.

I do not have time to deal with the broadcasting issue because it requires some special discussion. I will attend to it soon. We in political circles are understandably conscious of, and sensitive to, broadcasting. As developments occur, we must be conscious of the need to ensure that there will be complementary national and independent broadcasting systems. We must realise that these will operate from different positions and will have different needs and requirements. We could discuss this matter for a further 30 minutes.

We note a recent change in local broadcasting and radio, caused by the multinational corporations and others buying up stations when they become investment opportunities. This happened in the telecommunications and housing industries and is now occurring in the local broadcasting sector. We could well lose sight of the meaning of local radio and broadcasting if we are not careful. I would like an opportunity for the committee to discuss that subject because it requires attention.

Chairman

Before I call Deputy Broughan, I express our appreciation to the Minister for responding positively to the committee's application regarding the Black Valley and for finding a mechanism to carry out a pilot scheme there. We are very grateful for the Minister's commitment to that issue.

Mr. Broughan

I welcome the Minister, the Secretary General and their officials. I thank the Minister for his presentation.

As I have said in each of the 13 or 14 years since I entered the Dáil, I would like the Opposition to have an input into the Estimates for the following year. We are discussing Estimates that have been partially spent. When I was a member of the Committee of Public Accounts, it proposed — as did the committee that investigated the position regarding DIRT — that the Opposition should have an input into future Estimates, not just those that are already spent. We might work on this idea.

There is a fair chance that the Department will not survive in its current form. In respect of marine matters, energy — which is at the top of the political agenda — and communications and broadcasting, we have learned in recent years that in many countries these matters are dealt with by three separate Departments. I commend our civil servants who have had to wrestle with this very difficult Department which has become more topical in recent times. Whatever the composition of the next Government, this Department may be shaped differently.

My party supports decentralisation but we have grave reservations about the speed at which people are being decentralised and the unfairness of the programme for many civil servants. We are also concerned that the central corporate memory of the Civil Service will be lost if the central civil servants of each Department are scattered around the country. I would prefer to move the capital to Galway or Mullingar and keep the central Civil Service intact. What has been put forward in the budget for that area?

A total of €4 million is being spent on consultancy contracts. This Department seems to spend a lot of money on consultants. I acknowledge that the issue of the Corrib gas field is a particularly difficult one to resolve but there seem to have been numerous reports. Could the Department not have been more efficient in that regard? It is noted that during the year, Mr. Barry McSweeney, the former chief scientific adviser to the Government, was moved to the Department. Has he a co-ordinating role regarding RTDI and what is his role?

The presentation made no reference to An Post. It may not have been referred to because many people regard the postal service as disastrous. I have had complaints today from Dublin North about the state of the postal service. Next day delivery figures are at 74%. Despite the industrial relations agreement, the collection and delivery systems have not been implemented. An Post pensioners have not been paid which is particularly deplorable. For every month the Minister has been in office he has presided over the closure of two post offices. They are closing at the rate of almost one every ten days, including a post office in my constituency which has a population of 8,000. Why has the Minister, despite all his initiative, forgotten An Post? The agency will have a new chief executive later this summer but it needs guidance from the Minister. He needs to be setting targets for energy and broadband. Even though the technology is changing and electronic substitution is developing, we still need a national postal service.

I acknowledge the total of 320,000 broadband lines. However, we are still second from the bottom of the European table. We are number 14 out of the original 15 EU member states in terms of broadband roll out, which is a very poor state of affairs. The Minister picked it up when there was no broadband whatsoever in the country, despite Deputy Dermot Ahern's histrionics at this committee. Since then there has at least been some movement but it is very slow. The Minister deliberately changed the former Minister's target by downgrading it by 100% in order to ensure that in the run-in to the election, the Government would not be embarrassed by the situation. His speech is full of claims most of which turn out to be not what they seem and we are still second last in the list of EU member states. He claims that prices have fallen by 25% but they have fallen by 35% in the rest of Europe.

There are concerns regarding MANs. Many regard the MANs situation as a national scandal. We are spending more than €100 million in duplicating our telecommunications network. The Minister stated in his submission that to date, demand for MANs has fallen well short of expectation and that it will lose €4 million next year. A regime of secrecy is in place regarding MANs. Deputies cannot find out what money the system is earning and what is being rolled out. It seems to have some use in commercial and industrial estates but I do not know what MANs are delivering for rural or even urban constituents. The Minister informs us the second stage of 93 MANs will begin. What would happen if Eircom evolves? The Minister has made promises regarding ComReg. He has referred to ComReg as being toothless but he is the man to blame for that. The Minister's current plans will be too little, too late. Broadband has effectively been a disastrous performance by the Department over the past four and a half years and, in particular, by the two Ministers.

The Minister referred to the roll-out of the schools broadband service. As the Secretary General will know, one third of primary schools are not on-line and have not signed a protocol even if they were enabled. The Minister made no reference to mobile telephony, a subject on which this committee has spent a lot of time. What are his views on roaming? Could the Department have expended more resources to create a more efficient mobile market?

Expenditure by the Department on energy is still fairly low. I welcome the initiatives on energy conservation introduced by the Minister during the year such as the greener homes initiative and others. These are small initiatives with the greener homes initiative amounting to 10,000 homes over four or five years. The Minister may not have been in the Chamber during the debate last week on the Fine Gael motion on energy. The point must be made that most of the spending on energy efficiency announced by the Minister will be spent by the next Government and not by this Government.

My colleague spoke about Mallow and the sugar factory. A great opportunity seems to have been missed. The Minister may have been contacted by the Mallow staff, as I was, asking whether the critical machinery in that factory could be retained for Ireland in order to increase our biofuel target. Biofuel accounts for about .00001% of our total transport fuel mix, in other words, we have not even started. While the Department has finally wheeled around to realise the importance of biofuel and the fact that oil is a depleting resource, it is very little and very late.

Chairman

The Deputy has one minute remaining.

Mr. Broughan

According to my little watch, I have two and a half minutes remaining. I am timing it.

Chairman

The Deputy has one minute and he is losing much of that minute now.

Mr. Broughan

I am invigilating the Chairman. He himself took about five minutes.

I recently borrowed a little from the Tory leader, David Cameron, when I called the Minister an analog politician in a digital age. Lo and behold, a few days later, the leader of Fine Gael stole what I had stolen from the Tory leader and echoed this comment.

The Minister states that the switch over will occur in 2012. Is the Minister making an announcement today that this is the date which will see the digital switch over and that this date will be adhered to? Will the Minister become a digital politician while he still has time?

Many people in broadcasting are very fearful that the digital era will be messed up and will be a disaster similar to the broadband era and we will end up years behind. The BBC has been making itself ready under direction from the culture secretary in the UK to become involved in digital broadcasting as soon as possible and to help those people who only have analog televisions. What are the Minister's plans in this regard? Will the future Estimates allow for spending in this regard? It seems that so far, what Mr. Cameron said with regard to Mr. Gordon Brown, also applies to the Minister. He needs to get with it and start moving towards the modern era in broadcasting.

Chairman

The time is now 2.48 p.m.

Mr. Broughan

The Chairman gave me eight and a half minutes.

Chairman

Is Deputy Ryan sharing his time with the Technical Group, in the person of Deputy Ferris?

Mr. Eamon Ryan

It was difficult to follow the Minister's speech because he was probably curtailed time wise and had to give edited highlights. Perhaps it reflected the nature of the Department in the way he referred backwards and forwards. I was trying thinking of a suitable metaphor. The Minister is certainly putting a brave face on matters. If one heard a father delivering a speech at the wedding of a daughter about which he was not particularly happy, he would put a brave face on it. To continue with the wedding analogy, the bride in question on this occasion is Eircom Dempsey. This is the elephant in the room which the Minister did not mention in his speech. Our main incumbent telecoms operator has been married, divorced, has had assets stripped three or four times over the past three or four years and another suitor has arrived from distant Australia who appears to know next to nothing about the telecoms business. We have no obvious control over that. It shows the lack of planning or control in the telecoms industry in the past five or ten years. The other two daughters, O2 and Vodafone, are massive successes for the companies involved but not necessarily the people.

It was not mentioned in the Minister's speech but the reality in telecoms is that our incumbent fixed line operator has been asset stripped, our two main mobile companies are massive super-normal profits operations and Irish businesses and consumers are the ones who have lost out. I agree with Deputy Broughan that the only response or control from the State is in the alternative network we are developing in terms of the metropolitan area networks, MANs. It has yet to be shown that the fairly significant investment of €100 million in them is justified other than it being a thumbing of our noses at Eircom and what has happened to it, but it is not a telecoms policy for a State. That is why the Minister in his speech put a brave face on what is happening in that communications area, which is clearly an unhappy situation for the development of our industry and society.

In regard to the energy sector, a second large and hugely important area, to continue the use of metaphors, it is as if somebody has got his or her hands on the bioethanol and drank it before he or she delivered the speech. While the Minister painted a picture of huge activity and progress, if one were to talk to people in the industry one would learn that the reality is one of extreme dissatisfaction about the state of developments in the past five years and continuing developments.

The Minister's speech during Fine Gael Private Members' Business last week referred to glorious change and huge recognition of success, but if he has talked to people in the industry, I am sure he is aware they are deeply unhappy about what they see as a bureaucratic and blocking approach that has occurred in the development of renewable energy in particular. It is remarkable that in the Minister's speech there was no mention of energy efficiency. That should be our first priority and the area in which we should develop programmes to cut back our exposure. Our exposure in this regard was clearly shown in the recent Forfás report at a time when there is a threat yet again of a 40% increase in gas prices.

My criticism of the energy area relates to what the Minister is not saying. I do not believe anybody would differ with the view of the experience of people across the board involved in the industry in terms of developing renewables and alternative technologies, trying to get into the market and introduce new energy supplies here. Their view is that the Administration hinders rather than helps that progress. That is a fundamental problem we must address.

I have a concern that everything we do in this regard is limited; our ambition is remarkably limited. The Minister cited the achievement of the 13% renewable target that has been set by the European Union, as if that should be the height of our ambitions. In a sense we have turned these European targets into limitations on our ambitions and effort, rather than minimum standards that apply for countries possibly that do not have significant renewable resources. In a country such as Belgium which does not have wind, waves or biomass resources that match our level of those resources, perhaps those European targets make sense. However, in a country with our potential they should not be the limit of our ambition but rather the launching pad. In terms of everything that is being done in the Department, these figures are cited as though we will achieve them. I am not particularly impressed by that. I would be impressed if we were to double or treble them, which is what we need to do.

I do not have a sense of there being any urgency on the part of the Government or the Department to address issues in the energy sector. When considering the energy prognosis going forward and the two main energy issues in terms of the peak in global oil resources, the resulting increases in the prices of oil and gas, the consequences of climate change and the requirements to make changes in that respect, the quantum of change required is way beyond what has been referred to here. It is not recognised in these Estimates. I foresee us achieving safe targets, whereby we will be seen to be doing something but we will not be addressing the skill change that is needed.

I will give a number of examples to illustrate this point. The green homes scheme is welcome, even though it is questionable that it has not been broadened to include power generation as well as heating systems. At a time when an additional 300,000 homes will probably be built, we are not recognising the future in the energy scenario in terms of climate change or oil resources. Similarly, in regard to the new scheme launched recently in terms of fixed tariffs for renewable energy suppliers, limiting it to 400 MW of connected power makes no sense. Why are we limiting it? The response may well be that this is based on European Union considerations and if we do not do so, we will have a problem with Brussels in this respect. I do not believe we would. If we went to Brussels and said that we are one of the countries that should be leading this area, we would achieve it. The French and Germans are getting away with it. They are looking for quotas beyond what they are emitting in pollution. We can go to Brussels with our hand on our heart and say we should be allowed to develop green energy. There should not be a restriction on it. The allocation of €4 million for energy research is welcome, but it does not compare to similar allocations in other Ministries, such as Science Foundation Ireland's budget of €600 million for information technology and biotechnology. Why are we not bringing energy research into that State initiative as a third element, which would mean that several hundred million euros would be used to develop this area and thereby we would be developing technologies that would provide jobs? That is the scale of change we need. There is no sense of that scale of urgency or ambition in this project.

I, like the Minister, went to the energy fair in the RDS last week, which was mobbed. It was interesting. There were many manufacturers and many companies represented there which make considerable money from producing fairly basic technologies that we could produce. They were all Austrian. Austria had a stand in the middle of an Irish energy fair and it was doing great business. Why are we not doing something similar? We do not have leadership or ambition and we are limited in our response. It is safe, it covers the PR agenda but it does not radically change the political agenda.

Deputy Broughan is right in that the Estimates process should come before this process is signed off rather than afterwards, but another problem with this process is the lack of joined-up thinking in this. It is all very well for the Minister to set energy policy, but if the Minister for Transport is whistling away and building as many motorways as he can and the Minster for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has no concern for higher building standards to try to cut our energy usage then, it is like having a bath with the tap turned on full but with the plug taken out. The energy just pours through. I see in these Estimates a symptom of the greater problem, a lack of joined-up thinking by the Government, particularly in the energy area.

In terms of broadcasting, it was interesting to hear the Minister say that promotion of a digital platform was the highest broad policy priority. If it is, it is amazing how slow and poor our response to developing it has been. We may have benefited from holding back somewhat in terms of not investing in technologies that will not prove to be the winning technologies, but our timid piecemeal approach in terms of a pilot project followed two years later by the commissioning of another consultant to examine matters, will mean we will miss the boat. Broadcasting, to a certain extent, is a difficult section of the Department to manage because the approach in recent years has been one of firefighting. Our approach has been similar in regard to telecommunications, fisheries and energy and in that firefighting approach, broadcasting has been overlooked. I do not have a sense of there being any speed about the introduction of a broadcasting Bill or the technology that is needed. Broadcasting is a difficult section of the Department to manage because it is spread out, but the response to that should be to spread it to the four corners of the country.

I imagine the daily working routine of any departmental official at a senior level would involve having meetings with, for example, somebody from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government on the emissions trading system, attending a meeting in the Oireachtas where he or she would have to respond to what Members are doing, possibly having a meeting with SEI or some other agency, and attending a meeting in Brussels which would involve travelling there and back. It does not work over the telephone. That works in a capital city where one has agencies close together at that high level but makes no sense when the same official has to spend half his or her time travelling around the country to get that sort of joined-up thinking.

This decentralisation programme will kill the very concept of joined-up thinking that we need. I believe the decision on decentralisation would be reversed by a future alternative Government because, speaking for my party, it is madness to pursue it and the money spent will be seen to have been wasted.

Chairman

We will proceed with the question and answer session on Vote 30. We are dealing with subheads A.1 to A.8, which relate to the administrative budget. Are there any observations or questions on subheads A.1 to A.8? I do not wish to deal with anything outside of that. We have ten minutes to deal with this issue. I am following the rules as set out by the Oireachtas.

Mr. Broughan

On subhead A.4 — post and telecommunications services, are we including anything here on postcodes or has that been dealt with under subhead A.7 which deals with consultancy services? Perhaps when speaking on subhead A.7 the Minister would also refer to the point I made earlier on the current levels of consultancy contracts and the role of his scientific adviser?

Under subhead A.1 which deals with salaries, wages and allowances, will the Minister clarify precisely what remains under the remit of the marine? It sometimes appears that the commercial ports, all of shipping and safety such as coast guards, etc., comes within the brief of the Minister for Transport. Can we assume that everything else remains the brief of the committee?

Chairman

We are discussing administration charges.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

Regarding subhead A.7 and the allocation of €585,000 for consultancies in the broadcasting, multimedia, legal support and other areas, will the Minister give a breakdown of this figure? I tabled a parliamentary question on how much had been spent to date on consultancies on the digital broadcasting area and if memory serves me, it was in the region of €2 million in the past five years. If I recall correctly, we even changed consultants a number of times or a number of different consultants were involved in that regard. Will the Minister outline what exactly is involved in the consultancies because it is not an insignificant amount of money that has been spent in the broadcasting area?

Mr. Durkan

Will the Minister give a breakdown of subhead A.3 — incidental expenses? I always get worried about incidentals. If possible, I would like some elucidation on that and on the consultancy service as well, under subhead A.7, to which reference has already been made. Consultancy services pop up again and again. While there is some fluctuation in some of these areas of a beneficial nature, they still amount to significant expenditure.

Mr. N. Dempsey

On the question of whether subhead A.1 or A.4 deals with consultancy on postcodes, it does not. It is dealt with in consultancy services under subhead A.7. The consultancies or likely consultancies we will have to cover in 2006 are, communications advice on the 999 call answering service, advice on interconnectivity issues and various financial audits that take place in the Department itself. In the area of broadcasting multimedia we obviously need legal support on the Broadcasting Authority Bill. A licence fee review is also carried out each year. Consultancies were also carried out on the feasibility of digital television, to which members have referred, and advice on other multimedia issues.

It also includes consultancies in the area of energy and the payment of outstanding moneys in regard to the review of the electricity sector. We took advice on the Bord na Móna ESOP and the restructuring of Bord Gáis. Legal issues were involved in the INPC. Obviously the all-island energy market is one that requires careful legal consideration, both by the Attorney General and others.

Consultancy was also required for the alternative energy requirement programme. A review of the inland fisheries sector took place, some of which will have to be paid in this year. We also have consultancies in the petroleum exploration, mining and geological survey and in the corporate areas, including financial accountancy, quality assessment and expenditure.

My policy is to only resort to consultancies where we believe they are absolutely necessary, and where specialised knowledge or expertise which is not available to us in the Department or elsewhere in the Civil Service or public service is required for some specific job or for a specific period of time. We also use them where there is a need for objectivity or independence or where a consultancy study is required by an external body such as, for instance, the European Union, which requests various studies to be carried out to examine if we are doing the right thing according to EU policy.

Consultants are also employed where there may be a need for a study to be completed within a short timescale and where there was a difficulty within the Department because of a lack of skills or personnel or because of other business in the Department which meant it could not be done in-house. They are the areas in which we would do consultancies and why we may do them.

I have outlined the various sub-categories within broadcasting. In regard to subhead A.3, about which Deputy Durkan inquired, the type of incidental expenses involved in this relate to staff training and development, official entertainment, advertising, publications, public relations and other things such as legal contingencies where we may get legal advice on a once-off basis. If he wants an explanation of the decrease from €4.37 million to €2.5 million I can give one. It mainly relates to transfers and so on.

In regard to what remains in the marine functions, these are seafood policy and aquaculture, inland fisheries, marine research and the broader area of sea fisheries.

Chairman

If we are happy with the explanations on subheads A.1 to A.8 we will move on to subheads F.1 and F.4, as the other subheads deal with——

Mr. Broughan

We do not get a chance to see the Minister often. As a former Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, has he or the Government given any thought to using An Post's database to reform the voting register?

Chairman

How is that relevant to what we are discussing? This is about the Estimates. Can we not save that for another time?

Mr. Broughan

An Estimate relates to An Post. Has the Minister given any thought to that matter?

Mr. N. Dempsey

Using that information would give rise to problems with the data commissioner.

Chairman

We are doing very well. Subheads F.1 to F.4 relate to petroleum services, energy conservation, grants for gas networks and the energy RTDI programme.

Mr. Durkan

I have spoken in the House previously on the development of the gas network. It is important that we should be seen to be efficient and professional. Given the experiences to date, does the Minister believe the funding provided so far under that particular heading F.3, is adequate to meet all requirements, including the development of a proper grid and network, and also taking into account the need to proceed at a certain pace rather than being beset by various problems that have arisen in regard to, for example, the Corrib gas pipeline? It does not look good internationally that that unholy brawl has developed in the industry at a time when speed is essential and gas is at a premium.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

I refer to subhead F.2, energy conservation. The mid-term review of the national development plan was particularly critical of the inability of the Department and its agencies to spend money allocated under the plan for energy efficiency and other measures. Money had been returned under this heading during the previous two years because the agencies had been unable to spend it. Was money returned last year? Does the Minister have more details on the energy efficiency and built environment programme and the specific projects involved?

Under subhead F.1, petroleum scholarships worth €2,000 are provided for lucky rich students. I cannot imagine many consultants queuing up to bid for them. Has the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment conducted more research on the oil issue than the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources? The State is relying on the IEA for information on petroleum developments. Does the Minister have other research plans, given that Forfás has highlighted our exposed position and estimates that we are facing an imminent peak in oil production? Should more research be considered in this area by the Department or will it be left to the IEA and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment?

Mr. Broughan

Subhead F.3 relates to the gas network. I refer to work under way in the west and north west. The ESRI indicated in its energy report that it was totally opposed to the extension of the gas network but most members very much favour extending it to the west and north west. What is the current position on the cost benefit analysis? Is a multi-criteria analysis being conducted? Economists like simple cost benefit analyses and our own research institute can argue that extending the network to that region is not feasible, whereas it is an essential element of the solution to the Corrib gas field dilemma.

Is it intended to link subheads F.2 and F.4 and give SEI a clear role as the centre of excellence and energy research? As Deputy Ryan stated, the pure energy budget is small considering this will become an increasingly critical element.

Mr. N. Dempsey

I was not absolutely clear about Deputy Durkan's question but, under subhead F.3, the increase of €12.7 million is a payment the Government agreed to make regarding the completion of the gas network in Northern Ireland, which includes extending the pipeline from Belfast to Derry and the connection of the North-South interconnector. The contribution by the State recognises that the cross-Border gas infrastructure is an essential part of an agreed North-South aspiration for an integrated all-island energy market, the work on which is well advanced. It is due for completion before the end of the year.

Infrastructure in this area is usually paid for by the consumer through the ESB or Bord Gais. However, this raises a question the committee may have discussed. Should we continue to pay for such infrastructure in the traditional manner where the utility provider borrows funds and passes the cost on to the consumer, with the consumer paying immediately, or should the taxpayer fund such infrastructure up front with the money being taken in more generally?

Chairman

We have discussed this issue.

Mr. N. Dempsey

I am glad. The State is reimbursed for the petroleum scholarships by industry, although it is a miserable amount for postgraduate research.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

I did not mean to pick on the figure. I am more interested in the concept. Everybody is discussing a peak in oil production. Ireland is uniquely exposed with 60% of its energy needs being met by oil. Will the Department conduct research other than that being conducted by the IEA on the State's behalf to address this issue?

Mr. N. Dempsey

That is why we are establishing the energy research council which I will formally launch soon. I have also engaged with my colleague, the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, in the past 12 months on the upcoming Government policy statement on research and development, particularly in the context of the national development plan. Reference was made to Barry McSweeney and I am glad to have him on board. He will be useful in co-ordinating and focusing attention on that issue. The statement will also be useful because we have pushed hard at European level to ensure energy will be one of the pillars of the framework for future research. SEI has an expertise in research and is contributing to research and analysis. The GSI and the petroleum affairs division within the Department have a certain expertise in this area. We are not completely devoid of a concentration on research but I agree with the Deputy that we need to expand the research budget, which we look forward to expanding significantly in the next few years.

An economic analysis was conducted on extending the gas pipeline from Derry to Letterkenny. All aspects were examined and clearly there was no cost benefit in doing so. A multifaceted analysis was completed.

With regard to the Corrib gas field and the north west, we are examining whether we can do something. A number of the gas pipelines are close but the source of gas is the Corrib field and the issue is, when it is brought ashore, whether it can be piped through Sligo to Donegal. We have tendered for expressions of interest among companies which might carry out a specific study in that respect. We have tried in the terms of reference to make it as reasonable as possible to bring gas to the north west.

Mr. Broughan

Would the Minister lean towards social rather than economic criteria?

Mr. N. Dempsey

They must be balanced. A pipeline will not be built from the Corrib gas field to Donegal on its own but if a gas fired station is built along the route, that might make it viable and feasible. If we put a gas-fired power station somewhere along the route, it might be viable and we are including it in the criteria. The documents are on the website and we have asked people to tender for a number of different routes.

Chairman

I want to finish on this subhead. Has Deputy O'Malley got her list of times?

Deputy F. O’Malley

I have one brief question. Where are the funds listed for the Irish Energy Research Council?

Mr. N. Dempsey

They are listed in subhead F.4 under Energy RTDI.

Ms F. O’Malley

Will the funds be the exclusive preserve of the Irish Energy Research Council?

Mr. N. Dempsey

No. The council will advise on types of projects needed to further Government policy in energy. However, there will be a competitive procedure for anyone who wants to avail of those funds, similar to SFI. It will not be a case of just handing out the money. The Government will set the criteria, the council will examine the projects necessary to fulfil those criteria, it will make recommendations and there will then be a competitive tendering process.

Mr. Durkan

The Minister answered most of the issues I raised. However, I also referred to expenditure on public relations. It is not good public relations to have an undignified row like that which occurred over the development of the Corrib gas field. Have sufficient lessons been learned from this? When we are bringing fuel ashore, will we have our homework done beforehand? The RTDI programme is under subhead F.4 and it states at the bottom of the page that details of the main priorities for 2006 are being drawn up at present. It would be a good idea to have the general framework drawn up beforehand with due regard to the needs of the region and the international requirements of business, management and economics.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

My initial question was about whether we have been unable to spend money in the energy research area. The Minister also stated that we may be considering another gas-fired power plant in the north west to facilitate an extension of the gas network. We have eight combined cycle gas-fired plants and there are another two or three on the way in Huntstown, Kenmare and Aghada. Will we ever think about limiting the number of gas plants in the country?

Mr. Broughan

How does the TAG operate? I recently read the report on the Corrib gas field and I wonder if it will be a permanent group.

Mr. N. Dempsey

The TAG is made up of officials in the Department across various disciplines, including the GSI. It will remain in place until the new regulatory structure is brought in, which will involve the Commission for Energy Regulation taking responsibility for all gas pipelines in the country.

There was no underspend of money by SEI last year. The number of gas-fired stations in the future will be considered as part of energy policy and we will have to take into account issues such as security of supply, diversity of fuel and fuel supply. If the Deputy is suggesting that we will become more dependent on gas only, that would not be the intention. I would not make presumptions about places like Aghada as no decisions have been made yet. It is not even guaranteed that they will all be gas-fired power stations either. We are trying to provide more local generation in different areas.

Chairman

We move on to subheads G.1 and G.2, which deal with information and communications technology.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

Will any of this spending go on investment in connecting the various State backhall networks, be it the ESB, Bord Gais, or fibre along Iarnród Éireann lines? We are putting in all these local loops, but do we have a backhall loop for them?

Mr. Durkan

To what extent is local loop unbundling being completed in accordance with European requirements and our own targets?

Mr. Broughan

How will the MANs operate if we continue the massive spending on this roll-out, taking into account the possibility that the new owners of Eircom may split the company into a regulated network company and a separate retail company, or the possibility that ComReg is finally given the powers to enforce local loop unbundling?

Is it still the case that up to one third of our schools are not on-line? They may have been enabled, as the Minister pointed out in his speech, but they are still not on-line as we come to the end of the 2006 school year.

What is the latest news on the proposals for development of the digital hub properties? How many digital ICT companies are on-site?

Ms F. O’Malley

To what extent does the Department deal with the Department of Education and Science about the use that schools make of broadband?

Mr. N. Dempsey

I cannot answer the specifics of that question. The figures I gave are those for which we are responsible, namely, rolling it out to schools and providing the necessary infrastructure. I can check for the Deputy, and we will try to get information to him directly on that.

Chairman

We will have another session with the Minister on 14 June.

Mr. N. Dempsey

The content the Deputy mentioned is also a matter for the Department of Education and Science. I know that two and a half years ago, before I left the Department, a programme to digitise much of the curriculum was being rolled out. At that stage, it was history and some work was also being done on geography. I presume it has continued since. I know from a recent note I sought regarding teacher training that the NCTE claims to have trained approximately 12,000 teachers in various aspects of IT in the past 12 months. That is probably being rolled out, but my colleague, the Minister for Education and Science, will be in a better position to give members the details.

In another area under my remit, we have been encouraging RTE to provide ever more educational material in digitised form. It has a very broad range of material. The archive of the 1966 celebrations of the 1916 Rising should be looked at.

Regarding properties at the hub, development is going ahead according to schedule. If anyone is going through the planning process and fails to reach targets, there are fairly severe penalties. I believe the deposit is €5 million, and one must have applied for planning permission by a certain date and have received it by another deadline. If that is not the case, one loses one's deposit. One may not lose one's chance to continue, but one will have to provide another deposit. There are fairly severe penalties for those who fail to comply. Approximately 50 companies are involved in the area, employing approximately 400 people. That is the most up-to-date information I have.

The MANs programme being rolled out is extremely important, since it provides very resilient fibre-optic rings around the country. It is currently being rolled out and will be expanded even more. It is a management services entity independent of the Department. I am sure it must produce its own reports on finances and so on. However, it also regularly reports to the Department.

On local loop unbundling, according to the incumbent, approximately 2,000 lines per month are being unbundled. I am not satisfied with the rate of LLU, but everyone must abide by the law, no matter who they are. ComReg must do the same and go through the procedures. It is no great secret at this stage that the incumbent does this at its own speed and has resisted all efforts to speed it up. That is why, in an even greater effort to help ComReg ensure local loop unbundling, I recently announced that I would add competition powers to its remit. No money has been provided in the Estimates for backhaul per se; it is all for rolling out the MANs themselves.

Chairman

We will go on to subheads H.1 to H.6, which deal with broadcasting. I remind members that we have ten minutes for this part, and we are 15 minutes behind. Are there any questions on those sections?

Mr. Broughan

There is to be a changeover to RTE being the collection agency for the bulk of the funding, which is the licence, and the grant-in-aid. The briefing note states a licence collections section has been established as a company under RTE to carry out that. The work was not central to An Post, but what sort of efficiencies does the Minister expect from the change?

I would like to give the Minister a chance to elucidate digitisation. What preparations are being made for the digital era in these subheads?

Mr. Durkan

I have a general query on the broadcasting fund, which used to be €25 million. I know that it is here somewhere, but I cannot find it exactly. At what rate per annum is it increasing, or is it remaining as it was? I know it is supposed to increase.

My other question concerns a point made by Deputy Broughan. If post offices keep closing in the present slow process, to what extent will that devalue the company when it comes to using it for other purposes? If the network is broken or reduced to any great extent, that will obviously have a negative impact on value and attracting people likely to hitch their wagon to the moving train. How many post offices have closed in the past 12 months, and will that be allowed to continue? Does it accord with policy, and, if so, has the Minister evaluated its likely impact?

Mr. Eamon Ryan

The expected increase in licence fees for RTE is 50,000 in 2006. We have built 80,000 new homes or apartments this year. Does the Minister expect 30,000 of them not to have a television?

The pilot project for DTT is estimated to cost €10 billion. Can the Minister estimate the cost if that were a national project? It seems remarkably high for a pilot project. Given that we are doing the procurement and all the research on it, might we not go national at that cost?

Mr. N. Dempsey

On the question of cost, I understand the pilot project will cover approximately 40% of the population. The cost of a full national roll-out would be probably three or four times that.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

Are we back to the old days when the east coast got all the channels and my cousins in west Cork were left watching the Angelus? Are we to return to that?

Mr. N. Dempsey

The last time I checked, they had Sky down there too. However, we would like to give them their own DTT, and we will do so. I am mindful of the number of times Deputies opposite have talked about electronic voting machines and so on. I am sure I would be accused of all sorts of things if I simply rushed out and decided I would have DTT nationwide. It is wonderful how people can switch policy positions so quickly. We are rolling it out evenly and carefully. When Deputy Broughan accused me of being an analogue politician in a digital era, I was tempted to accuse him of being a black-and-white politician in a colour era, but I will not do so. With all due respect, before anyone on this committee talked about DTT, we had already——

Mr. Broughan

We are high-definition.

Mr. N. Dempsey

We had put in place this pilot scheme and the Government had previously tried to interest the private sector in DTT. Deputy Eamon Ryan made the fair point that there might have been some advantage to the fact that we did not receive the desired response in 2000 and 2001. In the UK, they went ahead with a scheme that cost them quite substantial sums, only to fall flat on its face. The pilot scheme will cover 40% of the population. We may be enabled to make decisions within the two years but we are allowing for a two-year maximum. Once we see that the scheme operates, we will be able to make decisions pretty quickly.

The indications are that since the pilot scheme was launched, RTE seems to be very interested in rolling out digital terrestrial television. There is some commercial sector interest in it also. The decision will be very quick and I will secure the earliest roll-out date possible. One needs to give the public an opportunity to change their television sets but, as I stated, this will be taken into account.

RTE has been talking for some time about its dissatisfaction over the rate of licence fee collection. I decided to give it direct responsibility for the collection of the fees through whatever means it wants and it has decided to use An Post. The benefit is that it can establish a dedicated collection service. There were fewer than one and a half persons in the Department looking after the matter but an agency can now be set up with many resources and staff, thus allowing it to collect fees in a very serious way. This should pay for itself and increase the number of licences. It will be interesting to see whether this happens.

Some of the 80,000 houses mentioned, or others, will be vacant. Some will be second houses that will not be used and may not have a licence holder. Undoubtedly some have not yet been checked for licences but a stepped-up regime in this area will help to increase the take.

Mr. Broughan

What about those with computers with broadband and no television set?

Mr. N. Dempsey

Some of them may be using that system but as yet it is limited. It may become prevalent and we will have to consider it in the context of the broadcasting Bill.

The broadcasting fund is 5% of the annual net receipts of the licence fee revenue. The amount available for 2006 stands in excess of €25 million and was accumulated over two and a half years. We expect approximately €9 million per year, increasing in line with the increase in the licence take.

Mr. Broughan

Is the Minister disappointed with the take-down? It seems to be mainly a question of RTE and TG4 in that the commercial sector does not seem to have delivered the goods in respect of producing public service television. Has this implications for the future?

Mr. N. Dempsey

We will need to keep this under review. The first tranche of payments represented a learning curve for everybody. There was a fair spread of programmes and TG4 certainly benefited. We will keep the matter under constant review. The commercial sector will make greater use of the resources as it sees what can be done and will be able to avail of it. I do not want to interfere. The criteria have been laid out in legislation and I can safely say that we have no complaints that the criteria were misapplied, although we may have had complaints that they should be different.

The policy on the post office network is fairly straightforward and, as repeated ad nauseam, it is to try to ensure its long-term viability and develop it to ensure it will be in a position to meet the future needs of customers. When I took up office in the Department, I urged An Post to consider providing financial services. We are at a very advanced stage of negotiations in this regard. The provision of such services will be helpful to the entire network.

On the likely impact of closures, we have more post offices per head of population than any other country in Europe and it is important that we maintain a strong network that is accessible from all parts of the country. The impact of the individual closures on the overall postal network will not be severe. A closure always has an effect in the local community.

Mr. Durkan

Is it a question of thinning out the density of the post office network in line with other countries in Europe, to which the Minister referred?

Mr. Broughan

In the rapidly expanding areas of the north and west of Dublin and the Minister's constituency, An Post does not seem to have any criteria for expanding the network. I noted this when I made representations about a number of closures both in rural and urban locations.

I commend the Minister and An Post on the initiative involving Fortis because it seems to have a very good track record in Belgium. It involves a new, interesting service that could be offered to people who may never even have had a credit union account. An Post needs to be more proactive and the Minister may need to outline a vision for the future of the postal service.

Mr. N. Dempsey

There is no Government strategy to thin out the number of post offices. I have had to get involved in a number of matters pertaining to An Post over the past 12 or 18 months to try to assist in industrial relations questions. I got involved by encouraging An Post to proceed with the financial services, the joint venture, etc. I do not believe in interfering directly in the day-to-day running of An Post. I do not direct the company on what it should do with post offices other than to reiterate that the Government's policy is to maintain a viable post office network.

I cannot answer the Deputy's question on An Post's criteria for opening new post offices but I can check them.

Chairman

We will be engaging with the post office representatives in this Dáil session, as agreed in our work programme.

Mr. Broughan

The criteria seem to be like the third secret of Fatima.

Chairman

I propose to deal with subheads I, J and K together because of the time constraints. Are there any questions on subhead I, which concerns the change management fund for non-commercial bodies funded by the Department, or on any of the other subheads before we proceed to the concluding remarks of the main spokespersons?

Mr. Eamon Ryan

Subhead I refers to strategic change and the modernisation agenda. Let us use Sustainable Energy Ireland as an example. I do not know where the Minister plans to move the organisation.

Mr. N. Dempsey

Dundalk.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

Such agencies have staff who spent years accumulating knowledge. What happens if they do not relocate?

Mr. Broughan

Has anything been done in regard to the RAPID programme and the IT fund for young people? It comes under subhead K. A total of €1 million was allocated for young people in disadvantaged areas to give them IT training and enable them to go on-line and so on.

Chairman

Does Deputy Durkan have a question?

Mr. Durkan

I have no questions.

Mr. N. Dempsey

Subhead K, the RAPID programme — dormant accounts — is an allocation mainly for the expansion of a scheme known as the clubhouse, of which the Deputy would be aware, and for the support of other programmes related to the digital hub and social inclusion. It is intended to try to expand the clubhouse to associate it with third level and other campuses around the country. I do not anticipate any difficulty in regard to SEI or any great loss of staff. Quite a number are young staff, many on contract, and there is a very high level of sign-up for Dundalk because most of the employees and contract workers there see it as an exciting opportunity in a very exciting and new area. They see the possibility of a cross-Border dimension to this. I am in no way fearful of corporate memory loss or anything of that nature. That agency will continue to be very dynamic. We will not lose people as a result of the move.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

Perhaps we are talking to different people. Lovely as Dundalk is, the people I talk to are not necessarily singing that tune. If one decides to move an agency and there is a prospect of losing half the staff and half the expertise, does one proceed?

Mr. N. Dempsey

Yes.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

How can spending money on training and development be justified if half the staff are not transferring?

Mr. N. Dempsey

We are not saying that. The Deputy is saying it. I am not starting from the premise that half the staff will not transfer. That is not the information I have. In addition, I do not believe there will be a loss of corporate memory. I have outlined that many of the staff are on contract. There is a high level of sign-up to the transfer. I have been assured on a number of occasions by the chief executive and the chairman that the SEI will move and that the staff look forward to the move in order to be as close as possible to Dundalk Institute of Technology which also has a very exciting programme of research in the energy area. We can hypothesise but I do not anticipate a problem in that respect.

Chairman

I remind members that we are approximately 18 minutes behind. I am conscious of what the Minister wants to do in regard to the Order of Business. Could we conclude in a few minutes rather than in five minutes. Would Deputy Durkan mind concluding in two minutes?

Mr. Durkan

I will try to get what I have to say into two minutes. There are a number of areas that are very important and fundamental to the development of this economy. They involve the two major areas of energy and communications. While there have been signs of progress in recent times, it falls short of what is required in an economy that is developing at the rate our economy is developing. If we had a lower rate of economic growth perhaps the rate of development in this area would be sufficient.

My concern is that we have not yet shown that we are capable of accommodating the natural growth in this economy in the foreseeable future. As a result there is a grave danger that two or three years down the road we will have a serious crisis, simply because we are not meeting targets or we are revising targets to accommodate our failures. Once we go down that road we will lose ground.

Chairman

Would Deputy Broughan be so kind as to summarise similarly?

Mr. Broughan

I thank the Minister, Secretary General and officials for their presentation and the facts and figures relating to the work of the Department. As composed by the Government it is a difficult Department. It submerged the old Department of Public Enterprise. If we go back far enough, energy and transport were together and we had different synergies in different Departments.

One of the Department's key roles is an enabling one. It is not a Department like the Department of Social and Family Affairs that spends half the Government budget or has huge employment levels as has the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform or other Departments. Its enabling role is critical. That is the area in which we on these benches sometimes wish the Department had been more pro-active.

It was before the Minister's time but in broadband and mobile phone technologies we lost pace with best practice, particularly regulatory practice in the European Union and we are playing catch-up much of the time. In other jurisdictions, particularly the UK, from the Prime Minister down there seems to be greater appreciation of the essential requirement to move to a low carbon economy, to have a much more efficient energy structure, and to move greatly on renewables.

The broadcasting area is disappointing when one sees the number of documents issued by the BBC and UK Departments in regard to their digitalisation. We need to be pro-active. I welcome the Minister's move towards an energy paper and setting targets for broadband. I hope he will do the same in respect of broadcasting and communications generally to allow us to move ahead.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

I commend the Minister and his officials for presenting this information today. The next step must be the new national development plan. To a certain extent that sets thinking in a better timeframe. This annual process does not really allow the Minister to think strategically or show where he is going. Before the last plan in 1998 there was a sense that we were ahead of the game in the telecommunications area. That lead has been lost. Whatever we have today, the reality is that perception is often nine tenths of what is important. We have to find ways to reignite our country as a leader in that field in a new national development plan.

Similarly, energy was not even considered in the national development plan. A transport plan was drawn up without any sense of energy policy. The next plan will have that. Given the figures, the real question is how we put into the national development plan key strategic aims which will make us less oil dependent, less fossil fuel dependent and improve our infrastructure for doing business and educating ourselves through the communications area. That is the task ahead of us.

Mr. N. Dempsey

I thank members for the constructive manner of this discussion. People take the opportunity from time to time to have a go at each other at committee meetings. Generally, however, this committee has always been very constructive in the way it approaches its business. I thank the members for that approach. I also thank them for their comments on the Estimates. I agree with the general feeling about the Estimates process which has been evident for a quite a long time. From next year, the method about which Members spoke, that is, discussing Estimates in advance, will come into play. That will be helpful to everybody. Deputy Eamon Ryan is correct about the concept of looking at this on an annual basis. Very often we can lose sight of the broader picture which is important. It is also important we step back a little.

Deputy Durkan is right in regard to dealing with problems. We are dealing with the problems of rapid and sustained economic growth for the past ten years. The Government can take great credit for that but it causes difficulties. Naturally, I hope we will be in office to continue the rapid economic growth for many years to come. Even if we are not and something totally unbelievable happens this time next year, I hope whoever is in office will be able to deal with the problems.

I was delighted to hear the committee's energy policy document is on the way. It will usefully feed into the policy document we are drawing up. I thank the committee for agreeing to accept the e-democracy role in regard to the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland Bill. We hope to have the heads of the Bill completed in the next two weeks and brought to Government a couple of weeks after that. We can start work at that stage and I look forward to working with the committee again in that regard.

Chairman

I thank members for bringing this part of the meeting to a conclusion fairly quickly. We are only one and a half minutes over time. I thank the Minister and his officials for attending.

Sitting suspended at 4 p.m. and resumed at 4.10 p.m.

Chairman

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Browne, and his officials. I formally welcome the Minister of State back to the fold and it is great to see him here before this committee. We missed him when he was transferred on a short-term basis.

The members have agreed the times. We hope to curtail the opening statements because the Minister of State and I have an important engagement on the plinth at 5.15 p.m. and Opposition members are more than welcome to attend. It will be for a photograph of the Fianna Fáil parliamentary party. We hope to conclude the meeting by that time and the other members were also anxious to conclude before the Order of Business. The committee has read the Minister of State's amended script.

Minister of State at the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources (Mr. Browne)

I thank the Chairman for his kind remarks. Dr. Cecil Beamish and his crew from the Department are here also. I am sure Deputy Perry will take up the Chairman's invitation to join us for the photograph. The Department's mandate represents a challenging mix of economic and social responsibilities. My responsibilities range from fisheries, coastal infrastructure, seafood and coastal zone development to enforcement and marine research, as well as inland fisheries. The Department and the agencies have a key role to play in delivering sustainable economic returns through the conservation, management and development of marine resources. The key challenge for the Department is to ensure the sustainable use, development and protection of these public resources to deliver jobs in rural and coastal regions and to contribute to the overall economy.

The net provision in the 2006 Estimates for the marine-related subheads is over €145 million. This includes €7.4 million capital carryover from 2005. The new multiannual approach to capital expenditure allows for better planning and use of resources. It is particularly relevant to the multiannual fishery harbours capital programme, given their complexity and the impact of the weather on the delivery of marine engineering projects.

Some of the highlights in the marine area include the sea fisheries and seafood sectors. The committee will be aware that, following detailed talks on 8 May with representatives of the Irish fishing industry, the Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, and I announced plans for the development of a comprehensive strategy to take the sector forward. The fact that there is now a shared understanding of the problems besetting the industry is very encouraging. The Minister and I hope that the completed strategy will be ready by the end of September this year. The development of the strategy will involve, among other matters, the establishment of a forum which will bring together industry representatives and key sectoral players, together with experts from the food and other related sectors. Almost €23 million is provided in 2006 for fishery harbour infrastructure development, under subhead B.1 and the associated carryover provision.

A key policy objective is to develop the infrastructure, operational efficiency and range of supply and support services at the five fishery harbour centres and other key fishery harbours. The aim is to maximise the levels of economic activity and returns from these facilities. In this scenario, fishery harbour centres can become drivers of economic development in their coastal hinterlands. The 2006 programme includes infrastructural developments at Castletownbere, Dunmore East, Cromane, County Kerry, Cape Clear, Clogherhead, Ros-a-Mhíl and Kilmore Quay.

The Government is continuing its strong level of investment in the seafood sector since 1997. On top of the €22 million I have just outlined for fishery harbour developments, almost €60 million more is being invested in the seafood sector in 2006. Subhead D.1, together with the associated carryover from 2005, provides funding of almost €50 million this year in respect of the operations of Bord lascaigh Mhara. The provision will support investment in seafood development including inshore fisheries, seafood market development, innovation and diversification in the catching sector, the purchase and installation of safety equipment on board fishing vessels, training and local aquaculture management.

ln line with the Common Fisheries Policy, a scheme to decommission fishing vessels and reduce capacity in our whitefish and shellfish fleets was launched in October 2005. Its aim is to achieve a better balance with available resources.

At the end of 2005, €4.1 million had been paid in respect of approved grants. Subhead D.1 includes a provision for a further €19 million for this scheme in 2006. This scheme forms a key part of the strategy to deliver a sustainable future for the fishing industry. The provision of over €2 million under subhead D.3 will continue to support significant restructuring in the seafood processing sector. The main priorities are: to increase domestic per capita consumption and unit value of products sold; target market research and promote trade consumer programmes; develop the marketing capabilities of seafood companies; and address competitive pressures for the sector.

The Government is aware of the vital importance of the aquaculture industry in our coastal and peripheral communities. The further funding of €5.8 million this year will support investment in capacity for the sustainable production of finfish and shellfish with high value added potential.

Funding of over €3 million has been provided under subhead B.2 this year for coastal protection works. This is part of a total planned investment programme of €52 million under the national development plan.

The Department is responsible, through the legislative codes governing aquaculture and the foreshore, for ensuring the appropriateness and environmental acceptability of aquaculture and other developments in coastal areas. It is committed to ensuring that these licensing processes operate as effectively as possible. The provision in subhead B.4 for 2006 is almost €1.4 million.

Subhead C.1 provides funding of over €26 million in 2006 towards marine research activities and, in particular, the operations of the Marine Institute. The 2006 provision will ensure the continued delivery of co-ordinated national marine research, technology, development and innovation programmes that inform and underpin policy objectives and management and development strategies for the marine sector.

Under the national framework for research, development and innovation, marine research has significant potential to contribute to the knowledge economy. This will entail the development of programmes of marine research and innovation, as part of the national research and development action plans. They will focus on key growth areas such as biodiscovery, ocean energy and advanced marine technologies. The objective is to build upon the excellent marine research and innovation infrastructures created in recent years, and develop and utilise our scientific capabilities and strategic geographic position in the context of emerging EU, global marine research and infrastructure initiatives. The new Marine Institute building will be opened in Galway. The Chairman of this committee may be invited to the opening.

Chairman

I was there last September.

Mr. Browne

Funding of €4 million is being provided under subhead C.2 in 2006 for the next phase of the Irish national seabed survey. This is known as INFOMAR or the Integrated Mapping for the Sustainable Development of Ireland's Marine Resources. The completed seabed survey has already provided a series of integrated data sets for the Irish marine shelf area. The extension of the survey closer to land will assist in developing new marine research projects as well as marine environmental monitoring, navigation and engineering projects in coastal zones.

The Minister has already highlighted the importance the Government attaches to renewable energy. As a complement to the survey I have just described, in Galway last month he launched various projects aimed at harnessing the natural energy of Ireland's ocean resource. This involves the Marine Institute co-operating with SEI and it is a very practical example of how the strengths of the different sectors within the remit of the Department can be harnessed to the overall sustainability goal. Funding of just over €28 million is provided for inland fisheries in 2006. This encompasses over €25 million to provide for the operations and activities of the central and regional fisheries boards, salmon management initiatives, contributions to trout and coarse fisheries development societies and inland fisheries management and development generally. A total of €2.64 million is being provided as our funding contribution to the costs of the Loughs Agency which is a North-South body.

The committee will be aware that the Government agreed last year to the establishment of a new regulatory regime for the management of this important resource, following completion of the high level review of the Government's involvement in the inland fisheries sector. These reforms are necessary to ensure the inland fisheries sector thrives and reaches its full potential.

As a first step in the reform process, the Government has authorised the drafting of a Bill which will establish a national inland fisheries authority which will subsume the executive functions of the central and regional fisheries boards. The current central and regional boards will be transformed into regional advisory boards. These statutory bodies will focus on regional issues. The Government has also decided that consultants shall re-engage in 2006 to identify in more detail the structures, resources, funding and policy approach needed to implement the further restructuring of the sector. This process will involve full transparent, comprehensive and patient consultations with all stakeholders.

On the conservation and management of the salmon resource, we have adopted a recommendation of the National Salmon Commission. We have also reiterated the Government's commitment to fully align with the scientific advice provided on the management of the wild salmon fishery by 2007. An independent group has been set up to examine the implications of the new regulations for the commercial sector in 2007 and beyond and make recommendations on the options to address any financial hardship experienced. The chairman and members of the committee are aware that the members of the independent group are Mr. Padraic White; Mr. John Malone, former Secretary General of the Department of Agriculture and Food; and Professor Tom Collins of NUI Maynooth.

The Voted expenditure in 2006 of €145 million in the marine sector is significant. It demonstrates our practical commitment to those communities depending on the marine and fisheries and focuses on achieving their sustainable and regionally balanced development. I commend the Vote to the committee.

Mr. Perry

I congratulate the Minister of State and wish him well on his appointment.

There is a comprehensive plan of action for the forthcoming year. Given the scale of funds in the economy — €50 billion — €145 million appears to be a considerable amount of money, but I have no doubt there is considerable room for development and increased funding in the years ahead.

The upgrading of harbours is essential. I have visited quite a number. With the appointment of a harbour master, there is a strong element of autonomy and subsidiarity. The five fishery harbours should have a strong element of control. An accounting officer should be in place, whereby there would be a level of involvement with stakeholders. Such a partnership approach should be encouraged with the vessel owners operating out Castletownbere, Killybegs or any of the other coastal harbours.

The Minister of State met the representative bodies of the industry on 8 May. This was a good move. Against the backdrop of the Sea-Fisheries and Maritime Jurisdiction Bill, it is good that there is an even keel which is beginning to characterise relations which were contentious for some time, given the uncertainty surrounding the Bill. This impacted negatively on many areas in terms of bad publicity. It is good that the Department and stakeholders have got the message in developing the industry which has great potential.

It is important to have a plan for the industry. The Minister of State referred to having such a plan. We need a plan of action. The Minister of State met the representative bodies of the industry and is considering inviting the vested interests to work on developing a plan, the absence of which has been a difficulty in the industry for some time. I am glad the Minister of State is back in this Ministry. He has made a fresh start.

The Minister said Farrell Grant Sparks had been commissioned to prepare a second report on inland fisheries. This is an issue that needs to be discussed. A report on phase 1 was published but not on phase 2. I ask the Minister of State to ensure a report on phase 2 is published before the one on phase 1 is implemented, as there is great uncertainty. I understand Farrell Grant Sparks has completed its report on phase 2 but that it is still in its filing cabinet. It has not been published by the Government. This may be incorrect but that is my information.

On the salmon management issue and the scientific recommendations, the Minister of State has indicated that Mr. Padraic White has been appointed to the independent group to come up with a financial settlement. Is it the Minister of State's intention to impose a complete ban on draft and drift net fishing in line with the recommendation made by the scientists?

I am disappointed that the funding for the tourism programme and foreshore development is minimal. Some €850,000 was ring-fenced for this area in the budget of 2000. The Minister of State might indicate the possibility of progressing the marina development at Rosses Point, County Sligo. This project has been raised previously at a meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts.

On fishery conservation, including the shellfish sector and the decommissioning scheme in the south east, is there a delay in making payments under the scheme? I note that only a small amount has been paid.

The main issues facing the industry this year are the review of inland fisheries, the timescale involved and the scientists' recommendation on the buy-out or the settlement to be offered to drift and draft net fishermen.

Mr. Broughan

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Browne, and his officials, especially those from the marine division of the Department. I also welcome the Minister of State's presentation. Why is there such a large carry-over figure of €7.5 million in the budget? The Minister of State might address this question in general terms.

We had a strong and lengthy debate on the future of sea fisheries in the context of the the sea fisheries legislation which seems to have been badly framed. Will the Minister of State tell us what, if anything, has changed? When the legislation was being dealt with by this committee and the Dáil, many issues were raised. The Department indicated that legal action was being taken against fishermen or those who had overfished illegally. What has happened since? Articles by journalists such as Stephen Collins on what has been happening since the Bill was passed have been carried in the newspapers. What is the position on implementation of the new Act? Effectively, it sets up a system comprising the independent Sea-Fisheries Protection Authority and sea-fisheries protection officers.

A few months ago the marine division of the Department was severely criticised by the Comptroller and Auditor General in regard to the collection of income due to the Department. Where is this income covered in the Estimates? I am not a member of the Committee of Public Accounts, although I was in the past, but the Comptroller and Auditor General seemed to imply that the Department did not collect, as a matter of practice, its due entitlements year after year. On this basis, has the Department been carrying out its work? What has happened in this respect?

I called for a sustainability assessment to be made each year, not only by the specialist agencies such as the Marine Institute but also by the Department, for presentation by the Minister to Dáil Éireann to enable us to consider the resources to be found in the seas that surround this country, for which the Government has responsibility. Will action be taken on this?

The Secretary General and the Minister of State have indicated that a broader view of a sustainable and profitable fisheries industry will be forthcoming in September. Does this reflect the fact that the Minister has lost the confidence of fishermen and fishing communities which felt they had been badly let down during the debate on the legislation? The Government will not regain their confidence between now and the next general election. Does the Minister not have an obligation, at least, to set out a vision for a viable sea fisheries sector?

I welcome the allocation of €23 million for fishery harbours. Given the number of development proposals, does the Minister of State consider this allocation sufficient? For example, do we need to invest more in harbours in the north west to take advantage of developments outside of fishing such as in the Corrib area? People involved with harbours such as Castletownbere, Howth in my constituency, Clogherhead or Rossaveal, have often put ideas to the Department over the years but nothing much has been forthcoming.

The sum of €50 million has been spent on BIM. Does the Department carry out any kind of cost-benefit analysis of that expenditure year-on-year in regard to the seafood industry? What value do we get from Bord Iascaigh Mhara?

On coastal protection, my ancestral home is in the Minister's county. The chairman of BIM comes from a famous area that has suffered much from coastal erosion. The sum of €3 million for this purpose appears derisory. When I see the word "foreshore", I think of the leader of the Green Party, Deputy Sargent, who has asked more than 100 times for the legislation on the protection of foreshores. Will that ever be produced? It was on the clár for about seven or eight years and then it was whipped off and we have not seen it since.

I welcome the funding that has been provided for the Marine Institute and wish it well in Galway. We all admire its work immensely. I commend the Minister on the initiative in which he has been involved in regard to wave power and renewable energy. I hope it will be the start of something important.

I also welcome some of the clarification the Minister has given on the national inland fisheries authority but is it the case that we are putting the cart before the horse? Should the consultation with the various inland fisheries associations such as pike and trout fishermen and so on be carried out first, after which we could come forward with a national inland fisheries Bill. In other words, should we engage in consultation, decide on the structure and then draw up a Bill? This is what my colleague, Deputy Perry, proposed. Are we doing it the wrong way around?

Can the Minister state definitively if this is the last drift net salmon season and that he is now fully in tune with the scientific advice that has been Labour Party policy for as long as I can remember? My great predecessor, the former Deputy, Michael Bell, was the first person to propose a detailed policy to that effect. I am glad we have reached this stage. Will the Minister confirm if this is the case? I welcome the detailed presentation given by the Minister and the work of his officials.

Chairman

I ask Deputy Ryan to be brief. I would appreciate it if he would confine his comments to five minutes.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

I will be even more brief as I want to get to the questions and to get the Chairman out in time. I hope the photo opportunity was not scheduled for a time when it was thought the Chairman might be down in the bowels of the building in the committee rooms. I am sure the Taoiseach would not do that.

What Deputy Broughan said is important in that there has been a sea change. When one starts talking about fisheries, one always finds marine metaphors creeping in. There was a radical change of perception as regards identifying the issues in the fisheries area in the past year. At last there is a recognition that the exploitation of stocks beyond sustainable levels is no longer acceptable and if we do not stop and change we would be completely denuded of stocks and we would, in effect, be destroying our largest environment in a matter of years.

There was widespread recognition during the year that the system in which the industry here and abroad was operating was corrupt, in the sense that it was not working and it forced people to be clandestine in the way they operated, and the scientists or many others did not give much credence to the landings and recording procedure.

The recognition that the current system is not working was the most radical change in fisheries that has occurred in this country in my lifetime. I do not get a sense from this meeting that we have accepted that and moved on to a radical change in the way we are doing our business to accommodate that new reality. While I welcome the fact that the Minister has been talking to fishermen and that he is hoping to produce a strategy, his statement that we will have a forum as a result of that is not a sufficient reaction.

We need a radical change in the Common Fisheries Policy to ensure clear, daily reporting of the system. If we do not have that, any amount of forms, fisheries protection management or administration will not work. I am surprised that this issue has not been dealt with to a certain extent. I accept it is a European issue but our whole strategy and policy must be focused on changing the global European fisheries policy, otherwise the work we do here is, effectively, irrelevant.

I fear that even in terms of the area for which we are responsible, now that the media attention has moved on, we will keep our heads down and not acknowledge the serious issues that were raised, both in terms of our own fishery harbour management structures as well as what was going on in the industry. I do not think that would be an adequate response. Getting the Bill passed for the sake of a political victory for the Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, over the Minister of State, Deputy Gallagher, is not the important issue here. What is important is to make sure we have a system that protects one of our most valuable natural resources.

I will come to the detail later, but on a general point of principle, when one looks at where the money is going, the bulk of it is still going on marketing and fisheries development. BIM is getting a significant amount of money for development, sales and marketing at a time when the real issue is conservation, protection and the development of new fishing management systems. I do not see this reflected in the Estimates.

My last question relates to salmon stocks. I am afraid the issue is as clear as mud, as to what the Minister intends doing. That is not good at a time when people's livelihoods are at stake, and with the huge international attention on us as to whether we are going to follow scientific advice and stop drift netting. The Minister should state his position now so we can prepare the ground in terms of what else needs to be done. The current situation is one in which no one is certain of what is going on. That has been the case for the past five or ten years and it has not worked.

Chairman

We have many questions under different subheads. It may be too much to try take them all at once. I am conscious that members wish to go to the Order of Business. Is it agreed that we take all the subheads? Agreed. We will take subheads B.1 to B.4. I invite Deputy Perry to ask questions but not to make any statements.

Mr. Perry

On the allocation of €851,000 to the marinas, a total of €5.7 million was announced on budget day in 2000 in respect of the four marinas — Caherciveen, Kenmare, Roundstone and Rosses Point. All four projects were sent to the Comptroller and Auditor General for examination. Legal advice was sought in respect of permissible levels of state aid. State aid rules preclude the levels of aid envisaged in the amount of grant approved in principle. What has been the impact of that statement on the potential development of the marina at Rosses Point? Is the sum of €425,000 an additional figure to the sum already discussed and approved some years ago?

Chairman

Are there any other questions on that subhead?

Mr. Broughan

Is the €2.4 million allocated to Greencastle the previous Minister of State's parting gift to Donegal? It probably was. I also asked questions about the foreshore and other matters in the course of my contribution.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

I will speak on the tourism marine facilities first and then contribute on the other issue. It was my understanding under subhead B.3 that the money was dependent on co-funding from the European Union. Was it national development funding which included a certain element of European Structural Funds as well?

In the last sentence on main priorities, will the Minister clarify whether they will proceed? What will determine that in terms of those two, whatever about the other ones that have not been turned down?

Chairman

We will take the answers to those questions. I know we are taking all the sections.

Mr. Browne

In regard to Rosses Point, there is a reduced level of state aid. The project promoters are considering their position and will come back to us at some stage. It is up to them to make a decision.

Mr. Perry

I refer to the original figure approved for Rosses Point. What is the reduced figure?

Mr. Browne

It must be within EU limits but I do not have the figure. I will forward it to the Deputy but it is approximately 50%.

Mr. Perry

The increase of €425,000 reflects the lack of progress on marina projects during 2005 with the status of the two remaining projects, at Roundstone and Rosses Point, to be determined.

Mr. Browne

The Caherciveen project has gone ahead but those at Rosses Point and Roundstone have not.

Mr. Perry

Is there a difficulty releasing the capital funding, given that there was a difficulty releasing funds up to now?

Mr. Browne

The Department cannot release money until the project is approved. Those behind the Roundstone and Rosses Point projects are considering the implications of the reduced funding and, until they come back to the Department and obtain approval, we cannot——

Mr. Perry

Must approval be sought from the European Union and the Department?

Mr. Browne

We can only operate within EU state aid rules. We are waiting for the promoters to come back. They must make the decision on whether the projects are viable.

Mr. Perry

Are they the only reason for the delay?

Mr. Browne

Yes. The Greencastle project is worthwhile. Donegal County Council must provide 25% of the funding. The county manager has sought a meeting with my officials to discuss the issue further because this amount is proving difficult for the council. Funding is a difficulty for all local authorities but the Department operates on the basis of a 75%-25% split on such projects. It is generally accepted that the Greencastle harbour development is essential and worthwhile. Deputy Keaveney has pushed for it more than the Minister of State at the Department of Transport, Deputy Gallagher.

Mr. Broughan

I referred to the Comptroller and Auditor General's comments on harbour income.

Mr. Browne

The Comptroller and Auditor General raised issues about the collection of fees. An improved system has been put in place to take his criticism into account.

Mr. Broughan

Fees were not collected for four or five years. Is the Minister of State saying that from now on the Department will collect income to which the State is entitled?

Mr. Browne

The Department has always been anxious to collect the money but a number of operators refused to pay. However, a stricter system has been implemented and legal action will be taken if operators do not comply with the payments due. The sea-fisheries Bill underpins that decision. Previously, the Department sent regular reminders to operators who did not comply, whereas now they are issued with one reminder and if they do not comply, serious action is taken against them.

Chairman

The Committee of Public Accounts was informed that the credit deadlines were stretching to 573 days and 130 days in Howth and Rossaveal and 500 in Dunmore East. Has this changed?

Mr. Browne

It has. We are imposing a stricter regime.

Chairman

What are the deadlines?

Mr. Browne

I do not have the figures but I will forward them to the committee.

Mr. Perry

When he reported, the Comptroller and Auditor General stated harbourmasters were not in place in all five fishery harbours.

Mr. Browne

Full-time harbourmasters have been appointed in each of the fishery harbours and given the necessary authority and resources to carry out their functions effectively.

Mr. Perry

An acting harbourmaster is running Killybegs Harbour because the harbourmaster is temporarily suspended. What is the situation?

Mr. Browne

It is the same. An inquiry will be ongoing in Killybegs for some time and until the matter is resolved, the Department will not change the current situation and the acting harbourmaster will remain in position.

Mr. Broughan

Has the Minister of State considered streamlining the process, whereby harbourmasters run ports, given the presentation made to the committee on Killybegs and that staff feel that dealing with headquarters is similar to dealing with Foggy Bottom? It is a bureaucratic maze and difficult to make progress. Is that a fair criticism?

Mr. Browne

Harbourmasters work with stakeholders and those operating within harbours. I hope they will operate a more efficient system than in the past. Our harbours contain many assets. The harbourmasters should leverage more income and facilities from them and operate more independently than in the past.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

A sum of €1.029 million is set aside for the small harbours programme. Does the Minister of State have a list of the harbours covered?

Mr. Browne

A list of applicants was submitted by local authorities and I expect to make a decision later this week.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

Why was it announced in February that Burtonport and Bundoran would be beneficiaries of the programme if the Minister of State has yet to make a decision on a list of harbours submitted by local authorities?

Mr. Browne

I have a list of the projects submitted by each county council. Projects at Burtonport, Buncrana and Portnoo harbours were submitted by Donegal County Council. Therefore, a decision was not made without the council submitting a list of projects. I have the list of applicants and will probably make a decision tomorrow on these projects. CLÁR funding has been committed to a number of projects. In that case we commit a corresponding amount. CLÁR areas will benefit more, while the south west will benefit substantially.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

I would appreciate a copy of the list. However, the Buncrana and Burtonport projects were announced as having received approval earlier this year. Why were applications approved in February if the Minister of State is making a decision based on the list tomorrow?

Mr. Browne

The applications are made by the local authorities and assessed within the Department by the engineering section and senior officials. They make recommendations but, unfortunately, the amount at my disposal will only fund half the applications. If I could find an additional €2 million, I could meet the needs of all small harbours included in the list.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

This raises an important point of principle regarding the running of the country and the allocation of funding. The small harbours programme also involves co-funding with local authorities. If Donegal County Council has a difficulty co-funding the Greencastle project, will it have a difficulty co-funding the Buncrana project, for example?

Mr. Browne

That may well happen because it is not uncommon. The Wexford county manager had serious reservations about providing 25% of the funding for such projects, especially when the council did not have the money. A number of county councils may not be in position to take up the projects announced tomorrow. The only correspondence I received from the county manager in Donegal states that he would like to discuss with us the 25% funding for Greencastle.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

Would it make more sense for the Department to clear the co-funding issue with the council in advance of announcing it? There are other projects on the list and funding could be obtained if the Department was aware that the local authority was not able to provide funds.

Mr. Browne

The county council will send in a list of five or six projects and we then ask the council for its priorities. I hope we will be in a position to fund the priority projects in the different counties.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

Were there any political considerations involved in getting funding? The outgoing Minister of State, as a representative of Donegal, pushed through projects in Greencastle, Buncrana and Bundoran, regardless of the merits of those projects.

Mr. Browne

I am not in a position to say that. The previous Minister of State and I allocated a substantial amount of money for harbours around the country. They were based on the priorities submitted. The projects submitted for Donegal were priority projects according to Donegal County Council.

Deputies raised a question about fishing policy. We had a very good meeting last Monday week with the fishery organisations around the country. It was agreed that we would appoint a chairman and two others, along with a secretary from BIM, who would go to the coastal communities. People feel that these communities are under pressure to develop jobs and so on. We are working on the terms of reference for the organisations and we hope to have those terms available this week. We will make them available to the Deputies and if they have any ideas or suggestions we would like to hear from them. We agreed to move forward in partnership and we were not going to hand policies down to the organisations as they wanted to have an input.

There is a deadline in early September. We will invite experts from the fisheries and food sectors to a forum and we will devise a policy for the next five or ten years. We are currently discussing moneys from the national development plan with the Department of Finance, which will be used to develop the fishing industry. It must be developed with the industry and the coastal communities and the policy must reflect what they want.

Chairman

It is the policy of the Minister of State to consult widely.

Mr. Perry

I am pleased to hear that because the Sea-Fisheries Bill was brought in with no consultation. This is a massive U-turn which must be welcomed. Subhead D.1 states that the total cost of the decommissioning scheme will be €45 million. What is the timeframe for this? I have no doubt the recommendations and assessment figures have been agreed. What portion of that €45 million is coming into the Exchequer from Europe?

The Minister of State said that he would get back to us on the fuel crisis as a matter of urgency. Will he do so immediately?

Mr. Broughan

What are the plans for the fisheries protection agency? How does the Act operate? It disappeared off the radar and people are anxious to see how it works. What impact will the money spent on decommissioning the white fish fleet have on the fishing effort in 2007 and beyond?

Chairman

We have gone overtime. I was trying to help by bringing everything together. In hindsight, we should have kept matters separate. I did not take the advice of the clerk to the committee, which is a grave sin. Can we confine ourselves to the Estimates?

Mr. Broughan

We are talking about decommissioning.

Mr. Browne

A total of €8.45 million has been paid out since decommissioning began last October. The first projects were approved in November. We will soon be announcing a €19 million scheme for the white fish fleet. There are still some problems with three or four scallop boats whose owners must be paid. We are trying to bring these problems to a conclusion as soon as possible.

Mr. Perry

Will that be in the next two weeks?

Mr. Browne

I hope so. There are still some difficulties that may take some time.

The President signed the Bill to which the Deputy referred in early April. I have writer's cramp from signing up to 20 statutory instruments and notices in the last few weeks to implement the relevant EU regulations that manage Ireland's quotas. We are currently planning to establish the new sea fisheries control authority, which we hope will operate in early 2007. Very little of the money for decommissioning comes from the EU.

Chairman

Did the Minister of State say that he signed statutory instruments?

Mr. Browne

I signed 20 of them.

Chairman

Have they been referred to the committee? Is the Minister of State aware that the committee is entitled to scrutinise them and to consider them?

Mr. Browne

The normal procedures in signing statutory instruments were followed as far the Department is concerned. I will check out about making them available to the committee. I have no problem with that.

Chairman

It is not about a problem, it is a question of following procedures.

Mr. Broughan

Are they in the Oireachtas Library for three weeks?

Mr. Browne

They are in the Oireachtas Library but we will make them available to the committee. If the committee was due to get them and did not, then I apologise. We had them publicised in newspapers and we followed all the procedures.

Mr. Broughan

We do not want to revisit the Vincent Browne case.

Chairman

There is a set procedure and I ask the Minister of State to ensure that his officials know that procedure.

Mr. Browne

Yes.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

I have a question about subhead C.1. Can the Minister of State give more details on the RTDI funding of €5 million? How will that operate? This deals with marine research on energy. The Minister made a speech last week on marine energy issues. Is the funding going towards that area, or towards the conventional marine research area?

Mr. Browne

The Marine Institute works in conjunction with SEI and funds some of the joint programmes of both groups.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

Therefore, the sum of €5 million is not going primarily to energy research.

Mr. Browne

No. It is for general research.

Chairman

We will proceed to subhead E. Are there any questions on inland fisheries?

Mr. Perry

With regard to the tourism angling measure, a very small sum of €1,000 has been included. Some €30 million was supposed to be ring-fenced in the last NDP to promote tourism angling in the BMW region, but the money was diverted elsewhere. As it has great potential for the country, why has it received such low priority? Considering the budget of €28 million for inland fisheries, one can see that pay and non-pay recurrent costs at the Central Fisheries Board and its regional counterparts amounts to €24.5 million. The level of funding for capital expenditure, angling measures and inland fisheries is minimal. The Minister is seriously considering conducting a large-scale review of inland fisheries. Are they not dying on their feet owing to a lack of funding?

Mr. Eamon Ryan

Is the Minister of State's understanding of the best scientific advice that we should end mixed-stock fisheries, that is, drift netting at sea for salmon?

Mr. Broughan

Does the Minister of State have a view on the question I asked regarding the way in which he is moving forward on the national inland fisheries legislation? Is he putting the cart before the horse? What is intended regarding publicly owned fisheries? People fear that inland fisheries may be alienated to private vested interests not representative of the full community.

Mr. Browne

Deputy Perry has raised the tourism and recreational angling measures several times. In the 2006 NDP, there was an indicative figure of €30 million, but when economic conditions changed in 2002, it was withdrawn. Little or no money was spent at that time.

Mr. Perry

I appreciate what the Minister is saying. He referred to the downturn in 2003 after the rise in spending prior to the 2002 general election. We have heard every day of the week since that the economy is booming. Was serious consideration given to reallocating the €30 million to the regions?

Mr. Browne

No decision to reallocate was taken by previous Ministers. My personal view is that tourism and recreational angling should come under the remit of the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism. I understand that it might well happen. The money is not currently there for this area, and I envisage its moving to tourism rather than our being involved in recreational angling. Discussions will take place between the two Departments to ensure that it happens. I have travelled around the country extensively in recent weeks and many people have very worthwhile projects in their areas. I consider it very important for the future of rural Ireland and I wish to see it develop. While not wishing to get rid of it, I believe the place to park it is in the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism.

Mr. Perry

Does the Minister of State agree that effectively nothing is happening? The €1,000 is a token payment that would not even buy stationery. Is it clear that funding angling tourism has been completely closed down as a priority? It has great potential. In 1999 some 54,000 angling tourists entered Ireland but that figure has dropped to 20,000. In light of this funding is it any wonder?

We saw the report on the inland fisheries review. Inland fisheries have been starved of cash for investment. That is true of angling tourism but also in respect of fishing for salmon, which is another contentious issue. The Department has failed to follow scientific advice for the last few years and there is still uncertainty regarding the future. This country has potential to be a major tourism destination but we have failed dismally in that regard. Nothing will happen in the next 12 months and with the general election approaching, I cannot see anything happening regarding tourism angling until the advent of the next Administration, which I hope will be of a different hue and will see this in a different light.

Chairman

Was that the Deputy's concluding statement?

Mr. Browne

It would not be true to say that no angling projects are happening around the country, since the fisheries boards and the councils are active. I was in Roscommon and Westmeath last week, where we opened four different projects. The county councils and fisheries boards have got together and developed small piers and harbours and provided fishing boats. The Elan Corporation in Athlone is involved with Roscommon County Council and the Shannon Fisheries Board in developing the Cross River as an angling and recreational facility. A certain number of projects are still happening.

The Deputy is right to say that €1,000 is a notional figure to keep the budget line open but I hope that in the NDP covering the period from 2007 to 2013, this area will very much be part and parcel of tourism.

Mr. Perry

On the BMW region, does the Minister of State feel that he can give any indication of support for the reallocation of the €30 million from the last NDP? It was justified at the time but diverted elsewhere. Can the Minister of State state its necessity? It is an outrageous loss to the BMW region. The money was promised, removed and not put back. Not only that, we are now allocating only €1,000 for tourism angling measures in the coming year. That is outrageous and of all the reports today, this is the one that hits me the most. There is a notional payment of €1,000, but we must consider this country's potential and the fact that €30 million has been stripped from the BMW region.

Chairman

Perhaps the Minister of State might respond. I presume that the allocation is technical and that more can be put in.

Mr. Browne

Some €28 million has been allocated to inland fisheries this year and some of that can be used.

Mr. Perry

Of the €28 million, some €24 million is taken up by pay and non-pay recurrent costs, meaning that there is only €4 million. The capital expenditure of the Central Fisheries Board and its regional counterparts is €693,000 for seven boards.

Mr. Browne

I did not remove the €30 million. I want to move on from here and discuss this with the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism to determine how we might have very worthwhile tourism measures in future. That money was allocated, then it was not and we ended up not spending any of it. The Deputy can rest assured that we are working on it, and I am sure that he will also be making noises to ensure that we have a tourism angling project.

Chairman

The Order of Business is now taking place in the Dáil and we must have concluding remarks from Deputes Broughan and Eamon Ryan.

Mr. Broughan

I thank the Minister of State and his officials.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

I asked regarding the best scientific advice.

Mr. Browne

In the week that I took up this job, we had to make decisions. I met the stakeholders and people involved on all sides. We agreed that we would accept the National Salmon Commission figures, that is, 90,000 in respect of those involved in net fishing and 15,000 in respect of those involved in angling and that a three-man strategy group to examine the issue would be established. We picked those whom we felt to be the three best people involved to look at the overall picture, reporting to us by the end of August or first week in September.

The strategy group will consider all the issues at stake, including any that Deputy Eamon Ryan mentions, and report back to us early in September. It will be considered by the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources before going to the Government. The establishment of the structure was approved through Government memorandum and was not simply an initiative of the Department. We are operating on that basis. I can say to Deputy Eamon Ryan that I certainly——

Mr. Broughan

Is this an indication that the general election will be in the autumn? The Government has no intention of making such a decision.

Chairman

Has Deputy Broughan finished summing up?

Mr. Broughan

Yes.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

The Minister of State set up the process and said he will align it with scientific advice in 2007. Does he agree that the best scientific advice is to end the mixed-stock fishery?

Mr. Browne

I am not agreeing anything at present. I am waiting for the committee to report, after which we will make the decision.

On Deputy Broughan's point, the Taoiseach has said the election will be next May and I will therefore have to make the decisions on the drift net and draft net anglers next March or April.

Mr. Broughan

If the Minister of State believes that, he would believe anything.

Mr. Browne

I totally believe it.

Chairman

I am disappointed we had to rush the end of these proceedings. Is the Minister of State aware that this committee produced a comprehensive report on drift net and draft net angling? It has not been referred to. Did the Department receive it yet?

Mr. Browne

It was referred to in the Government memorandum. All the documents, including the committee's, have been sent to Mr. White, Mr. Malone and Mr.——

Chairman

The press offices must have forgotten to include it in their press releases.

Mr. Browne

The committee was mentioned.

Chairman

I thank the Minister of State and his officials for attending. We look forward to engaging with them again.