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Select Committee on Enterprise and Economic Strategy debate -
Wednesday, 7 Jun 1995

Vote 34 — Enterprise and Employment (Revised Estimate).

It is proposed and agreed that we adjourn at 3.30 p.m. and recommence at 4.10 p.m. to facilitate both the Minister and Deputy O'Rourke who have to take part in a Private Notice Question during that period in the Dáil Chamber.

We are dealing today with the Estimates for the Department of Enterprise and Employment. I have circulated a suggested time schedule for our discussions this evening and I suggest that we finish by 6 p.m. at the latest. Is that agreed? Agreed, subject only, therefore, to the break for the Private Notice Question of half an hour.

I welcome the Minister for Enterprise and Employment and his officials.

On a point of order, you have kindly furnished us with a suggested timetable of speakers and the time allotted to each Member.

I note that you have given ten minutes to each of the Opposition parties. On checking with my parliamentary books for last year I noted that each Opposition person had 15 minutes. I do not want to carp and I am sure you will be lenient during the discussion.

I will be.

Thank you, Chairman. I am glad of the opportunity to deal with the Estimates as well as dealing with whatever questions Deputies would like to ask.

Growth in employment is the real fundamental of our economy and current indicators are positive. The preliminary estimates from the 1994 Labour Force Survey show an increase in total employment of 30,000 or 2.6 per cent over the previous 12 months. A further significant rise in the numbers employed is expected when the preliminary results of the 1995 Labour Force Survey are issued later this year.

The Central Bank in their most recent bulletin are forecasting that non-agricultural employment could grow by 37,000 persons in the period to April 1995.

While some commentators have drawn attention to the fact that the Central Bank have revised downwards their employment projections they may have failed to notice that this revision was based on what was then anticipated as a significant reduction in Government-funded job schemes. The situation has now changed. You will be aware that I announced on Tuesday, 16 May, that the Government approved proposals of mine to increase funding for the Community Employment Programme so as to increase the average number of places to 40,000.

Unemployment continues to fall. The number of registered unemployed declined by 5.7 per cent in the 12 months to end December 1994. This trend is continuing in 1995 with a further reduction of 11,200 in the registered unemployed in the first five months of this year.

It is also reassuring to note that there has been a 28 per cent reduction in the number of redundancies notified to my Department in the first four months of this year compared to the same period last year.

The continuing increase in employment and reduction in the number becoming unemployed is to be welcomed. However, I have to say that I am unhappy with the rate of decline in the number of registered unemployed. The recent trends in outflows from the register suggest that the unemployed are not benefiting in full from the improved jobs market. That is an issue that we will return to when dealing with the local employment service which is one of the initiatives that we hope will help to tackle that.

As Members of the Committee will be aware, the new industrial development agencies, Forfás, Forbairt and IDA Ireland commenced operations on 1 January 1994. The Industrial Development Act, 1993, provided that the powers and functions of the former IDA and Eolas would initially be vested in Forfás and then devolved to the executive agencies Forbairt and IDA Ireland. During 1994 that process of devolution was largely completed.

I am currently carrying out reviews of policy in the areas of both inward investment and the development of indigenous industry. It is important that the new agencies have a fresh policy impetus and that there is coherence in the various strategies being pursued by them.

Forfás, since its establishment, has made a significant contribution to maintaining the broad policy focus recommended by Culliton and Moriarty, particularly in respect of the wider business environment. The issues being addressed by Forfás — industrial cost, taxation, telecommunications and finance for industry, to name but a few — are crucial to the competitiveness and growth of Irish enterprise.

Forfás's policy and co-ordination functions include an important science and technology component. This includes co-ordination of Ireland's involvement in the EU Framework Programme for Research and Development. In addition, Forfás provided extensive back-up to the recently published report of the Science, Technology and Innovation Advisory Council, STIAC. The Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, will be available to deal with issues in that area. In the coming year, Forfás will continue its involvement in the STIAC processs and the Forfás chief executive officer, Mr. John Travers, will chair the task force which has been established by the Government to examine and respond to the STIAC recommendations.

I launched a new operational programme for industrial development covering the period 1994 to 1999 in January this year. The new operational programme is setting itself explicit targets, not just in gross job creation as in the past, but other targets that must be achieved if we are to make our industry competitive. These include: 1. Increasing indigenous exports by 66 per cent in value, almost twice as fast as the overseas sectors (+ 33 per cent); 2. Increasing our share of world trade by 20 per cent from 0.7 per cent to 0.84 per cent; 3. Increasing the share of raw materials used by foreign companies sources in Ireland by 15 per cent, from 27 per cent to 31 per cent, and 4. Increasing the share of GDP devoted to R&D by 30 per cent, from I per cent of GDP now to 1.3 per cent.

While the gross job target of 20,000 is the same as for the last operational programme, the greater emphasis in strengtening the long term capability of Irish industry — and indeed its profitability — will help reduce job loss and give a more secure long term employment base. It is worth recalling that during the previous five years there was a loss of 59,000 jobs in our indigenous industrial base.

The task force on industry adjustment should also make a significant contribution to the development and expansion of a more secure employment base by identifying areas at risk from competitive forces and proposing competitive renewal strategies. This innovative measure will combine up to £22 million of Structural Funds with a participative approach supported by IBEC, ICTU, LRC, the industrial development agencies and my Department in a process that will identify priorities and bridge the gap between analysis and the implementation of change.

Since January 1995, 12 greenfield projects from the US with a job potential of 2,000 have been approved by IDA Ireland, with two projects having a job potential of 2,500 awaiting Government approval. The combined job potential of these projects together with others in the pipeline is in the region of 7,000 over the next three to five years. Furthermore, there is a number of substantial expansion projects from US companies already established in Ireland that should create a further 2,000 jobs over the next three to five years. This builds further on the very good results in 1994. A total of 9,740 new jobs were created and recruited in 1994 — 8,200 of these are wholly new first-time jobs and the remaining are accounted for by the recovery of jobs lost in earlier years. Job losses were at their lowest level since 1990, at 4,470. In addition to the new jobs created, contract and temporary employment also increased significantly this year with 3,000 more such jobs in IDA-backed companies in 1994.

Forbairt's role is to develop indigenous industry and to strengthen its technological base and its capacity to innovate. Earlier this year, the board of Forbairt adopted a range of ambitious targets for the development of Irish industry up to the start of the new millennium. The agency has committed itself to assisting indigenous industry to increase its sales from roughly £11 billion in 1994 to £15 billion in the year 2000. To achieve this growth, exports by Irish manufacturers will have to grow from £5.7 billion last year to £9 billion in 2000. It is hoped this improved business performance will, over the next six years, result in an increase of 12,000 in the total number of people employed directly in Irish manufacturing and internationally traded service industry and that this will have a knock-on effect on employment levels in other sectors.

Forbairt's strategy for the future also involves a move away from simple grant packages to a more balanced mix of grants and preference share investment. While grants will continue to be used as the key incentive for start-up busineses, the new approach will involve Forbairt investing in specialist funds to provide equity finance to industries which are not, at present, adequately supplied by private operators. The agency will also use long term repayable credits more extensively to co-finance major investments by established Irish businesses.

A small net increase in employment, the first in four years, was recorded by Forbairt during 1994. The agency has now to build on this beginning by helping companies which are prepared to reach out for growth. The agency's target for this year is 6,500 first-time jobs and a higher net increase than achieved last year.

Shannon Development, as a central task in its integrated regional development mandate in the Shannon region, continued to promote the growth of the Shannon Free Zone, the National Technological Park and indigenous industry throughout the Shannon region, creating 414 more new jobs in 1994 than in the previous year. New approaches to financially support the indigenous industry base were initiated by Shannon Development in 1994. The company was given a pilot role by the Government to develop and test new equity investment systems and approaches as a means of pioneering early stage and venture capital funding by the State for enterprise development. Shannon Development is aiming to create 400 new jobs on the Shannon Free Zone in 1995 and a further 800 in indigenous industry in the Shannon region.

The objective of the county enterprise initiative is to develop an entrepreneurial culture at local level, with the intention of generating the maximum number of viable businesses and sustainable jobs. The boards have been given unequivocal enterprise and job creation objectives, and are providing a new source of funding and other supports for local enterprise initiative in business areas not already covered by the State industrial development agencies.

The rate of drawdown of grants has speeded up on 1995 with £5.5 million being drawn down in the first twelve months of this year compared with just over £0.4 million in the same period in 1994. Figures supplied by the boards indicate that from their establishment to the end of 1994, 1,776 full-time and 263 part-time jobs were created in CEB-supported projects. Close to £5 million was drawn down by the boards in grant supports in 1994.

The boards work closely with the other industrial development agencies, and also with the Leader groups and area partnership companies. Each board is assisted by an evaluation committee, the purpose of which is to provide technical assistance to its board on the evaluation of projects with a view to ensuring the commercial viability of projects. Now that the interim stage of the county enterprise initiative is drawing to a close, I hope within the next few months to grant boards the autonomy they require to move the county enterprise initiative into its fully operational stage.

My Department will be considering, in conjunction with the other Departments concerned, how best to avoid the danger of duplication of support and displacement of existing enterprises by the various local development initiatives, including Leader and the area based partnerships.

It has been recognised by Government that one of the main inhibiting factors restricting the growth and development of small business and service firms has been the shortage of affordable medium to long term fixed rate finance. In order to build on the £100 million pilot small business loan expansion scheme, I intend to introduce a larger, wider and more flexible loan scheme as the principal measure of the operational programme for small business. It is intended that this new scheme will be co-funded by the EU, the Exchequer and the banks and it was for this reason that I invited all banks to tender for the scheme at the beginning of May 1995.

The size of the loan fund is expected to be over £250 million. I propose to reduce the minimum size of loans from £40,000 to £20,000 and to leave the maximum at £500,000. In addition, I propose to open up eligibility for the scheme to certain small businesses in the services sector, subject, of course, to restrictions where there is a danger of displacement. This new scheme will build on the success of the small business expansion loan scheme. Under that scheme, funds were provided — mainly in 1994 — for up to 10 years at a fixed rate of 6.75 per cent.

The amounts loaned range from £40,000 to £500,000. The small business expansion loan scheme operated by the ICC on behalf of my Department was substantially oversubscribed and was a cost effective intervention. It has led to the creation of 3,716 jobs at a cost of £4,897 per job and the maintenance of a further 1,098 jobs. The average cost of jobs created and maintained is £3,780.

The importance of the small and medium enterprise — SME — sector has been recognised by the EU in its adoption of the SME initiative which it published last year. The initiative aims to stimulate small and medium sized businesses to adopt to the single market and to ensure that they become internationally competitive. Indeed, the agenda of dealing with small business is central to the work of our Department at present and we are addressing not only funding needs but also other areas where there is potential for small business, such as in public procurement. Members will also be aware of the establishment of the Joint Oireachtas Committee which is making a significant contribution. There is also the adapt initiative, which will be a training initiative geared specifically to the support of SMEs.

I am pleased that the Government has endorsed my proposal that the average level of partcipation on community employment should reach 40,000 this year, which compares very favourably with last year's average participation level of 30,960. I inherited a very serious problem of under-funding in this programme on taking office. I have since secured additional funding of £23 million in the budget and Government approval for a further £10 million in May of this year. As most Members will be aware, numbers on the programme had reached 40,000 by the end of last year and the level of demand remains very high, which is testimony to the extraordinary success of the programme with local community and voluntary groups sponsoring projects and with unemployed persons seeking a placement on the programme.

This year's Exchequer allocation of £244,845,000 for community employment, which is some £70 million higher than last year's outturn of £174,785,000, reflects the very substantial increase in activity which will be achieved under the programme this year and is but one of a range of measures which have been put in place by this Government to assist the unemployed.

My Department is currently working on a White Paper on human resource development and training which I intend to have completed as a matter of urgency. This issue is one of the critical challenges for business if we are to improve our competitive advantage. The White Paper will focus on all aspects of training and will outline policies for the future development of training for new entrants to the labour market including early school leavers and the long term unemployed.

It will also outline policies for the future development of training for the employed. In this area, research has unequivocally established that there is a clear relationship between skills enhancement and improved competiveness in industry. Accordingly, one of my aims is that it will serve as a blueprint for the promotion of a training culture in industry.

Arrangements are in hand for the establishment of the Local Employment Service announced earlier this year. Local management committees have been set up in all partnership areas and plans are being drawn up for the operation of the service in their areas. I am confident that the new service when operational will ensure a better and more co-ordinated service for the long term unemployed.

My Department is the national authority for the European Social Fund and in this regard has responsibility for coordinating and reporting on expenditure across nine Government Departments and approximately 50 training and employment programmes which receive support from the ESF. The amount of ESF expenditure being invested in the economy is considerable, representing 35 per cent of total Structural Fund transfers from the European Union. The total ESF allocation to Ireland approved for the 1994 to 1999 period amounts to £1.6 billion. The bulk of this expenditure is channelled through the Human Resources Development Operation Programme, which accounts for £1.3 billion. Very significant levels of Exchequer funding are also applied to the measures under the Human Resources Development Operational Programme, bringing the total investment over the period to £3.2 billion. These funds are applied to vocational education, training and employment programmes delivered by FÁS, the Department of Education, the NRB and the Department of Justice.

The main objectives of the Human Resources Development Operational Programme are: to improve radically the quality of training provision to best international practice; to increase the level of recognised certification within the education and training sector and promote progression and career-long training; to promote greater equality of opportunities to allow women and the disadvantaged greater access to training and the active labour market; to enhance employment prospects of the unemployed, particularly the long term unemployed and socially excluded groups; and to encourage industry and services to give training greater priority as a key element in securing long term competiveness.

My Department is responsible for the co-ordination of two human resources initiatives: Employment which comprises HORIZON for the disabled and the disadvantaged, NOW for women, YOUTHSTART for disadvantaged young people, and ADAPT which aims to promote adaptation to industrial change and the promotion of new forms of employment. Total funding for these programmes up to the end of 1999 will be £73 million. An intensive information campaign on these initiatives was organised early this year. Nearly 1,000 project applications have been received and these are currently being reviewed.

In the area of industrial relations my Department's Estimates include funding for the institutions that have the task of supporting the promotion and maintenance of good industrial relations. The main institutions which are entrusted with this responsibility are, of course, the Labour Relations Commission and the Labour Court. The contribution which a healthy industrial relations environment can make to our efforts to maintain and create employment cannot be over-emphasised. In this regard, it is fair to say that industrial relations in this country have improved considerably over the past decade. This is evidenced by the dramatic reduction in strike activity in recent years. The number of work days list due to strike activity reached an all-time low in 1994 — only 24,000 work days were lost in 32 strikes. This represents a major improvement since 1984, for example, when 380,000 work days were lost in 192 strikes.

I am of the view, that too many disputes that should be settled at local level are being referred to the Labour Relations Commission. Mangement and unions should not allow themselves to become overly reliant on third parties but should make greater efforts to settle their differences in direct discussions. In order to improve industrial relations structures and practices at the level of the work place, the Labour Relations Commission established an advisory service in 1992. It offers employers and trade unions a range of advice and guidance on specific issues as well as long term assistance and involvement in complex strictural/organisational industrial relations problems. In order to identify organisations that could benefit from its assistance, the advisory service monitors usage of the commission's dispute settling services. The success of the advisory service in this regard can be gauged from the impact on conciliation referrals over a three year period of the 12 most frequent users of conciliation. In 1992, these 12 organisations were involved in 249 referrals to conciliation. Comparative figures for 1993 and 1994 are 174 and 140 respectively.

The Unit for Partnership Enterprise, recently established in my Department, is exploring ways and means of assisting the social partners to promote and encourage greater participation by employees in the development of the enterprise in which they work with a view to meeting the challenges of a continuously changing and increasingly competitive market place through more efficient and effective work organisation.

During 1994, the Health and Safety Authority, continued to develop new legislative proposals implementng 11 EU directives on matters such as the protection of pregnant workers, exposure of employees to biological and chemical agents and the classification, packaging, labelling, marketing and use of dangerous chemicals. The authority also continued to devote a large part of its resources to informing, advising and educating employers and workers on the proper management of occupational safety and health issues and promoting the message that an accident-free workplace is entirely consistent with best business practice. Legislative priorities for the authority in 1995 include the introduction of legislation implementing the EU directive on construction sites and a major repeals and revocation order that will significantly simplify the task of business in complying with occupational safety and health legislation.

While I am conscious of the necessity to eliminate any undue burdens on employers that may impede their competitiveness and their capacity to provide employment, standards that are legally established to safeguard the interests of workers must be maintained in certain occupations that are vulnerable to exploitation. The provisions of six conditions of employment statutes that date from the 1930s and 1940s are generally outdated and inoperable and it is envisaged that they will be repealed by new legislation which is required to give effect to the Council Directive on the Organisation of Working Time. The directive deals with the provision of minimum daily, weekly and annual rest periods, maximum working time and maximum duration of work. My Department is engaged in a widespread consultation process with all interested parties in formulating proposals to implement the terms of the directive.

A discussion paper on the review of the holidays legislation was published in November 1994, the objective of which was to provoke wide debate and seek views from a wide range of interested parties on the nature of future legislative arrangements in this area. I am glad to say that the discussion paper was successful in achieving a response from many interested parties and these views are now being examined. Of course, a major factor that is central to the review of the existing legislation is the Council Directive on the Organisation of Working Time. The directive provides for minimum annual rest of four weeks which is one week in excess of the current statutory annual entitlement of three weeks.

I would like to turn briefly to the recommendations of the Company Law Review Group whose report was published in February. In its report, the group made more than 100 recommendations relating to changes in company law. Recommendations that are considered desirable will be implemented on a phased basis. In this regard it is intended to bring forward proposals in relation to the areas of examinership and the Task Force on Small Business immediately.

At present, proposals that have been prepared by my Department in consultation with the financial services industry to provide for the establishment of a take-over panel with statutory backing are under consideration. The establishment of the Irish panel will have two main objectives. One is to protect shareholders in merger and take-over situations. The other is to provide support and credibility for the Irish financial market following the separation of the Dublin Stock Exchange from London.

The Director of Consumer Affairs' responsibilities will be increased considerably following the enactment in the near future of the Consumer Credit Bill, now at Report Stage in the Dáil. The Bill represents a major reform and consolidation of consumer credit legislation and will give the director increased responsibility in the licensing of moneylenders and credit and mortgage intermediaries. It is also the director's intention, during 1995, to open regional offices in Cork and Limerick.

That was a thumbnail sketch of some of the work going on in our Department. We will obviously be at the committee's disposal to deal with issues Deputies want to discuss.

We will adjourn as agreed and resume with the spokesperson for the Fianna Fáil Party.

Sitting suspended at 3.30 p.m. and resumed at 4.20 p.m.

I mentioned in my speech that there were two projects with a job potential of 2,500 waiting for approval. One of those, the Seagate project, has already been approved.

Are they the same projects?

They were not included in the figures quoted earlier. There is no element of double counting. The other project is still with the IDA board.

Will we have banter or will we get on with business?

I would like to get on with business because we have already lost almost an hour.

We were not slacking.

I ask for your co-operation in making up some of that time. I would like to welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise and Employment, Deputy Rabbitte.

At a meeting last year of the Select Committee on Enterprise and Economic Strategy, the then spokesperson for the main Opposition Party, Deputy Richard Burton, said:

We seem to be going through a rubberstamping exercise. We are debating halfway through the year how money that has largely already been spent should be spent. I feel frustrated with this procedure and lament the abandonment of the pattern established by the Fine Gael-Labour Coalition Government of the mid-1980s when substantial comprehensive programmes of public expenditure were published. They gave us the type of detail with which you could make a more reasoned assessment of what was happening in the Department.

Where have the changes been made? He continued to say that "organisations such as IDA Ireland publish what are essentially PR figures illustrating the amount of corporation tax or the total of purchases made." Deputy Bruton went on to lament that they could not come before a Government Department as they did in his brother's day in the Department of Industry and Commerce when the IDA was brought before a committee and made to tell it as it was. They were fine words in Opposition and I could not resist referring to them. I remember going from Opposition spokesperson on education to Minister for Education and the brave Mrs. Gemma Hussey vented her venom on me. I hope I did so in a more cultured way.

I thank the Minister for his submission. I note that he continued at great length about employment and unemployment. The spin put on last Friday's unemployment figures was a cynical exercise. The Government chose the unadjusted live register figure as its measure of unemployment. However, we know the figure is not a true reflection of the jobless situation. The seasonally adjusted total gives the true picture. It shows the underlying trend and this figure in May was down by just 1,000. This small drop was less than the reduction the same month last year when the economic climate was not as healthy or as strong as it is now. The seasonally adjusted figure for May is also higher than when this Government came into office in January.

The reduction is useless in the context of Irish unemployment. Already the drop of 1,000 in May is eliminated and the live register further added to because of the crisis in the past week in The Irish Press, the closure of Sunbeam and the proposed lay off of 400 at Packard Electric. The Minister has sought to disguise the job crisis and his Government failure to get to grips with it by announcing and re-announcing the same proposed new jobs. Rumours have been floated about a new 3,000 jobs project for Cork. We have visions of the IDA, their sleeves rolled up, fighting off all would-be challengers for these jobs and returning to Ireland with them. Another project of similar size is planned for an unspecified location.

While these developments are welcome, a number of questions must be asked. First, would our time not be better spent on job preservation measures? The officials of both Ministers will know quite well that this is nothing I invented when I entered Opposition. The refrain I sing today is one which I sang at the monthly MAC meetings in Kildare Street. I have not changed my tune. I have a better chance to express it. Many companies currently shedding jobs could maintain them with the help of a small contribution from the Exchequer. Sunbeam, for example, required only £1 million to maintain its 175 jobs. Silverlea Jeans in Athlone, which closed a month ago, needed only the smallest of breathing spaces at the time. This was not forthcoming, however. Both companies are in the clothing industry, a sector that feels neglected by this Government and — if I were honest and straight about it — the previous one also. I am convinced that an official decision has been made that the clothing industry should not be encouraged and does not have the potential to preserve jobs or create new ones. This was a very erroneous decision and I ask the person responsible to reverse it.

The issue of job-shedding by the State in the private sector must also be examined. At present, State companies are planning to shed thousands of jobs. In the region of 3,000 jobs are to be eliminated by the ESB; the figure for Telecom Éireann is higher again; 200 jobs will be lost at Team Aer Lingus and Bord na Móna; and Aer Lingus and An Post have plans to shed more jobs in the future. Employment, not job-shedding, is the work of the Department of Enterprise and Employment. However, the fostering, retention and preservation of jobs should be a multi-departmental process. The policy of shedding jobs must be questioned because unemployment in Ireland will now be a short term problem. With changes in demographics and patterns of fertility, the annual increases in the labour force will shortly match the demand for labour. Within a decade the annual increase in the labour force will not be sufficient to meet the expansion in demand for labour, although there will continue to be an overhang due to the high level of long term unemployment. What sense is there in shedding jobs now, when they will be needed in less than a decade.

I wonder about the cost of redundancy and the huge amounts of money touted each day in the newspapers as being the cost for shedding jobs. Many of the people involved will find other employment, occupy positions which could be occupied by other people or make themselves available to the labour market. It would be useful to obtain an economic costing on voluntary redundancy to see if the price paid in economic and social terms — it would be more difficult to evaluate in terms of loss of morale — is economically satisfactory and viable. I do not believe it is. It cannot be the case that major amounts of money are paid to shed the required number of jobs and then it is thought that the equation is finished. This is wrong and the matter should be dealt with by some Government Department.

Surely it would better to challenge semi-State management to maintain and create jobs rather than wilfully waste State money in destroying employment. Private companies should also consider this matter. Job preservation is a priority in many countries and various policies are operated which restrain firms from shedding jobs. Companies have to obtain permission to cut jobs and this operates as a deterrent. In France, for example, companies must follow a complicated procedure to close a plant. Many companies baulk at that and make other arrangements. The Minister stated and restated that the recent spate of job announcements is welcome. However, this puts the cost of creating employment and maintaining existing jobs into context.

I was going to talk about the newspaper industry but it was discussed for over 40 minutes in the Dáil today. Apart from one gem of information we are none the wiser as to how even one of the 600 jobs in Irish Press Newspapers will be maintained or how investors will be encouraged and motivated. I would like the Minister to openly declare that he will meet and talk to investors and see where money can be obtained. I am not in favour of putting State money into a newspaper. However, there are investors who might be willing to be included in the investment circle of Irish Press Newspapers if the Minister would encourage them to consider the available options. The Minister is shilly-shallying on whether or not he is in favour of the report of the Competition Authority. The constant leaks to newspapers which are then denied and later relaunched have not been helpful in this case.

There is need for a major debate about the newspapers industry. A national media policy must be developed. The Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Higgins, has done estimable work with regard to national and provincial radio and television but the position of the newspaper industry must also be considered. Decisions taken on one side of the equation, perhaps within the debate on the Green Paper on Broadcasting, can have either beneficial or harmful effects on the other, that of national and provincial newspapers. That is something which is not being addressed by the Government.

The Minister has not been very forthcoming with information in relation to the cost of employment, despite his protests while in Opposition. He complained about the level of information last year. Now he is "king of the castle" but things have not changed. Plus �a change, plus c’est la m�me chose. The Minister is, in fact, attempting to complete this business by stealth. This has been particularly obvious in relation to grant-aid for Shannon Aerospace. I have sought, by written parliamentary questions to the Minister, to obtain information about the latest proposed investment by the State in Shannon Aerospace. I have received many shifty answers ranging from “this is a secret” to “it is a private matter between the company and the State agency”. It is not a private matter. The money does not belong to the Minister, his Department, the present or previous Governments, it belongs to the people.

I represent the voice of democratically elected Opposition. It is my job to ask for answers but I cannot get them. This is a Government of transparency, openness, accountability, with the fine vitures of probity and trustworthiness before which we would fall down in awe. However, I cannot get an answer about the clawback on grant-aid paid to Shannon Aerospace. My questions have not been answered. I call on the Minister to give the information about grant-aid and the clawback provisions of that investment. It was explained in The Times last Monday — perhaps it was The Sunday Times— how the investigation by the European Commission on Shannon Aerospace will affect investment in the company. I want the Minster to lift the veils of secrecy. The Minister should inform us of these issues, whether they are above board or not. I ask him to reply to my parliamentary questions.

When the Minister was in Opposition he said that 25,000 jobs needed to be created per year. He has failed significantly to put the shape he promised on economic and industrial policy.

The Minister berated us then for the reduction in the Estimates for science and technology and enterprise development; how quickly that is all forgotten. Provisions for Forbairt's enterprise development programme is down by 29 per cent; provision for in-company research is down by 24 per cent; the IPC is down by 33 per cent — it has been worn down year after year, perhaps he will read the debate on mandate Sunday trading before finally winding it down by another 24 per cent. Spending on science policy development is down by £333,000; at the same time consultancy services are up by £152,000. There is a committee for everything but no reporting done.

Provision for SFADCo is down by 29 per cent, although it will get a massive hike. In Killaloe last weekend I heard of bitter experiences from people who wished to get feasibility studies and grants to start small developments through SFADCo but were told that because of the huge investment in Shannon Aerospace, there was no money to encourage and foster small businesses. I am open to correction but I was also told — by someone who should know — that the Minister and the Department had been cautioned against making that investment.

When is the Minister renewing the enterprise allowance scheme? Last year he made strong calls for this and berated his predecessor in the Department, Deputy Quinn and myself, on its demise. Last year also he called the community employment programme a souped-up social employment scheme; I am delighted he has been convinced of the excellence of the programme and the need for enhanced funding.

I am sorry to interrupt you, Deputy, but we do not have much time and you have been speaking for 15 minutes.

I will be finished shortly. When in Opposition the Minister was also keen on the publication of analysis work by FÁS. What analysis does he now plan for the body and when will we see it? Could he also give details of the realisation rates on new job announcements? How many projects have met there targets? Will IDA Ireland and Forbairt publish this material annually? How many jobs have been promised or planned for each factory as it received money? How many jobs were actually realised in the following years? Last year the Minister called this a PR exercise so I ask him to show figures for net jobs, as opposed to those announced.

What are his plans for the services sectors, aside from the report? What is his view on industrial policy and what are his plans and priorities? He mentioned the possibility of IDA and Forbairt appearing before a committee, as they did during his brother's period in the Department of Industry and Commerce. I ask for that facility to be reintroduced. We cannot get replies to many of the questions we ask here or in the Dáil because we are told they are private matters between a company and the IDA. If the IDA was before a committee the matter would not be private.

How is the State's investment in GPA shares faring? What are his plans for training those at work and out of work? What has happened to the White Paper I promised during last year's Estimates debate which I faithfully included in the Programme for Government we had drawn up with Labour and which was also in the new programme when Labour found other friends. Finally, has the Minister plans to rationalise the proliferation of work schemes and job agencies? I thank the Chairman for his indulgence.

There is no member representing the Progressive Democrats or the Independent group.

May I be allocated the time for those 12 worthies?

I was generous to you, Deputy, you had almost as much time as the Minister. Before moving on to the subheads dealing with administration I ask him to reply to the points raised by Deputy O'Rourke.

It would be difficult to do justice to the points in a brief reply but I will try to deal summarily with them — other matters may arise in the course of discussion. I am enthusiastically following up the White Paper because we should look at the human resource policy as an important priority. Most commentators looking at competitive advantage in coming years see human resources as an area where we must develop our skills.

The Deputy devoted considerable attention to job preservation. Under the new industrial operation programmme, £22 million is provided for a programme dealing with adaptation of industry. The purpose of that is to foresee sectors and take initiatives which would help stave off job losses, the Deputy is correct to say it is important to build the capabilities of companies which might be vulnerable, to foresee problems which might arise before companies are in serious difficulties and are without viable business plans which can be supported.

She will be aware that under our industrial Acts the only way agencies can give support is where there is a viable business plan which will build employment and output and maintain jobs. It is critical that those factors be present where the State would offer support. In many cases companies have allowed their problems go so far there is no viable business plan which can be assisted — that point has been passed. The initiative behind having this adjustment and a task force supported by IBEC, ICTU and other agencies is to try to foresee some of these difficulties and deal with them in a meaningful way, consistent with long term commercial viability.

The Deputy raised issues in relation to consultancy and FÁS. I am looking carefully at the role of FÁS in the future White Paper. She asked me about the realisation rate of new jobs——

There is an increase of 152 per cent in consultancy provisions.

I will come to the increases when we deal with the Estimates line by line. There are a number of consultancies which are public knowledge; one is in the insurance area, which is to deal with an important cost problem faced by industry.

As to the realisation rates of new jobs the Deputy will be aware Forbairt and IDA now present their data on the basis of net jobs. They no longer report job approvals as their headline. There is a statutory requirement under the Industrial Development Act for annual reports of the agencies to report both on job gains and losses.

Will the Minister bring the IDA and Forbairt to this committee?

The reports are published on an aggregate basis, not company by company, as far as I am aware. However, in reporting on the performance of companies within its portfolio, the IDA reports on first-time jobs and net jobs.

Yes, but they could come to a committee as they did in far off days.

That is an issue for Dáil reform and is not a matter I can decide unilaterally. As the Deputy knows I favour such appearances.

If the Minister favours it he should say so and put it in train.

I ask the Deputy not to interject and to allow the Minister to reply.

The Deputy raised the rationalisation of measures; I presume she is referring to partnerships, county enterprise boards and Leader programmes. As I indicated in my speech, I am conscious of the danger of duplication and displacement. We are assessing the best way to deal with this. On the other hand, these initiatives address different types of issues. The Irish community is keen to have a bottom-up approach and it also reflects an EU trend that bottom-up is best. Without putting the dead hand of central Government on some of these initiatives, we must create a framework to properly direct them. I assure the Deputy that we are looking carefully at this. Perhaps we could deal with the other issues raised as we go along because it is difficult to do justice to them at this stage.

I suggest, with your co-operation, that we discuss them under the subheads because that would be a more efficient way of dealing with them. We will now move to subhead A1 to A8.

I spoke about subhead A7 when I responded to the Minister. Consultancy services have been increased by 152 per cent from £159,000 provisional outturn to £400,000 in 1995.

The largest figures relate to Irish Steel. As the Deputy knows, we have engaged the Investment Bank of Ireland, IBI, to assist us in identifying a partner for Irish Steel.

How much is that?

That is a confidential figure, but it is one of the largest figures there.

Why is it confidential?

This is a contract agreed between my Department and a consultant we chose. It was based on a tendering procedure and it is not common practice to reveal the results of such tendering procedures when such decisions are reached.

I do not want to know about the tendering procedure, only the final price. Can the Minister not give me the cost of the consultancy study for Irish Steel?

I assure the Deputy that the Department was careful in its selection of a consultant.

I do not doubt the husbandry techniques of the Department.

I can tell the Deputy that it is less than £200,000.

How many other such consultancies are taking place at present?

I am advised that the structure of the contract is such that it will depend on some elements of the type of work undertaken in the course of dealing with the issue. Any such agreement would have certain clauses related to additional work undertaken by the consultant. I assure the Deputy that we were extremely conscious of keeping to a minimum cost during the tendering procedure.

What other major studies are taking place at present?

Another significant consultancy study is being undertaken in relation to insurance cost reduction.

Will that build on Deputy Seamus Brennan's consultancy study?

Perhaps Deputy Rabbitte would like to deal with that issue.

I would not say it is building on Deputy Seamus Brennan's consultancy study. Too much of the evidence to hand on the question is either anecdotal or serving a particular sectional interest. An authoritative economic assessment of the impact of insurance costs on business and on the competitiveness of Irish business is necessary. The tendering process has been completed and a decision will be made next week at the latest on the choice of consultant. They will have approximately four months to submit their report. The Government will then proceed with any legislative proposals which it considers appropriate based on that report.

I wait with bated breath because the Minister will never get the proposals which will be put to him through Government. We found that difficult to do. However, we will await the report. What other consultancy studies are ongoing?

These are the main studies. There is an allocation under the heading for the company law review group.

An allegation of what?

An allocation of money.

I thought the Minister said "an allegation".

There is one under Sunday trading, of which the Deputy is aware.

When is that report being published?

They have not yet reported and I do not have a revised date.

It is nine months now.

I understand it will be ready in a week.

It will be ready to coincide with the strike in Dunnes Stores.

These are the main studies. The review of the Crafts Council of Ireland was a small study.

We will now move to C2 on pages 1 and 2.

Other services.

I thought we had completed discussions on A1 to A8.

We did A1 to A8. Now I am on C2.

Have you any questions to ask on this subhead?

Yes. As regards C1, SFADCo, the figure is minus 29 per cent. Will the Minister introduce a Supplementary Estimate to deal with the proposed extra money for Shannon Aerospace?

Shannon Aerospace is under subhead C2.

We are discussing that subhead.

There will be a Supplementary Estimate to deal with Shannon Aerospace at a later stage.

How much will that be?

I do not have an exact figure at this stage.

I read an article yesterday which stated that the European Commission proposes to look at what Ireland will do as regards Shannon Aerospace. What effect will that have?

I am not familiar with the report to which the Deputy refers, therefore I will come back to her on that issue.

The reason SFADCo's allocation for 1995 is smaller than before is that the company's own income was increased from the European Social Fund. SFADCo's current income from its own resources is expected to increase by over 3 per cent from £10.9 million in 1994 to an estimated £11.3 million in 1995. Total current income available to SFADCo for administration and promotional activities is expected to increase by over 3 per cent from £12 million to an estimated £12.4 million. Accordingly, the grant-in-aid to deal with that is declining.

We will now move to Subhead H2.

I want to ask a question on Subheads F2 and F3.

That is in the same section with which we have dealt.

I am doing it page by page, not section by section.

We are doing it section by section.

I want to do it page by page.

I am afraid we cannot do it that way; we must work on the basis of sections as circulated and agreed. You may ask a question on F2.

Subheads F2 and F3 relate to Forbairt's grants to industry and grants for capital expenditure. Does the minus 61 per cent mean that all the building was done first? A great case was made for advance factories last year.

The grant in this subhead is in respect of Forbairt's building operations and the purchase and grading of technical and computer equipment. The bulk of the anticipated spending this year is earmarked for the fitting out of the new national metrology laboratory in Glasnevin. The construction of this building, which accounted for higher Exchequer allocation under this subhead in 1994, was completed last December. The building is now fully occupied and operational and the remainder of the allocation is forecast to be spent by the agency on general purchase and updating of equipment.

Is the Minister considering a minimal amount of new industrial plants, forward factories or whatever they are termed?

The issue of buildings of that nature is still dealt with by Forfás under the present arrangements under subhead E2.

Under subhead U, I understand that the Minister obtained £6 million from the forum in respect of the new local employment service. Is that correct?

We will be addressing this matter and I will call you again, Deputy. I now propose that we move to the section dealing with subheads H to Q.

I do not have my science and technology development officer with me, so I will not address this section. However, with regard to subhead M, dealing with the Office of the Director of Consumer Affairs, the Estimate records an increase of 13 per cent for the office for 1995 in respect of a grant for administration and general expenses. While I am aware that the Director will obtain fees from charges he will be placing on money lenders and so on, may I ask the Minister of State. Deputy Rabbitte, is he satisfied that this amount will be enough, given the increased workload which the Director will have, especially with regard to start up purposes to get the consumer credit legislation known throughout the country?

Only so much of it will be called down this year. Over a period of two years the staff will increase from 30 at present to approximately 60. This involves planning over the next two years, but there is provision for additional staff this year. I am advised by the Director that he is satisfied that it is an adequate provision. Other questions may arise regarding the suitability and expertise of staff at his disposal in terms of implementing some of the more complex sections of the Bill when enacted. There is provision for the proposed legislation to act as a revenue earner to some extent in so far as those who have to be licensed as credit intermediaries, who have to obtain money lending licences and so on must make a contribution. This will assist in the financing of adequate staff numbers.

Does item K refer to metrology rather than meteorology? What does it mean?

Metrology. It is concerned with weights and measures.

That is correct. There is proposed legislation dealing with this.

Why was £1 million allocated last year and not this year?

A capital expenditure programme was engaged upon in terms of providing the infrastructure necessary. There is a new Bill in gestation, the heads of which were cleared by Cabinet some time ago. It is likely to be published during the summer recess, or certainly by the autumn.

What is the expenditure for last year that is not included this year?

The Garda used to undertake it, but it is now being transferred to new officers. Is that not so?

It makes adequate provision in capital terms for the legal metrology office to undertake its proposed new functions. It will take place at the Forbairt premises in Glasnevin.

Why was £1 million spent last year and not this year?

The job is finished.

The provision of building, equipment and so on.

With regard to the EU programmes under subhead L1, will the Minister indicate why there is such an increase in the monitoring and evaluation of EU programmes?

This is in respect of the new operational programmes, where the arrangements are different from heretofore. In this respect, 25 per cent of the administration of the European Regional Development Fund monitoring programme will fall on the Exchequer. In addition the introduction of a business information system, which will be funded under that heading, which is——

It is down by 84 per cent.

Deputy M. McDowell is referring to subhead L1.

It is up by 384 per cent. My apologies.

The other element to this is in respect of technical assistance, which refers to the upgrading of the information technology facilities. It is deferred from 1994.

With regard to subhead N1 — county enterprise development — I presume this refers to the county enterprise boards?

That is correct.

It is up by 101 per cent. How much of that is money already promised? How many new enterprises will it encompass?

This Estimate is dealt with on the basis of pipe line and draw down. The year to date has seen the draw down of approximately £5.5 million of the sums allocated to date. This is a considerable increase on the same period last year, but it would be expected that as the boards get moving the draw down would increase. We will be encouraging the draw down of existing approved projects. At the end of 1994, the county enterprise boards had commitments, or approvals, of £24 million in respect of projects which were approved, with a job potential of 4,700 jobs. It is not expected that all of that would fall due to be paid in 1995 and that there is a lead and lag situation. On the basis of the draw down to date, therefore, the Estimate would appear to be adequate to meet the new approvals that are coming forward.

Surely the Minister has come across the situation, as have those of us living in rural Ireland, where, for example, in a county such as County Westmeath, with the county enterprise board, the Leader programmer, FÁS, with its various programmes, the area partnerships schemes, the back to work schemes by the Department of Social Welfare, Forbairt, the IDA and various other agencies, there are seven or eight routes people could take if they wish to get assistance on a business plan. Our times are spent in our clinics advising people on the best route to take. In consequence, people are now trying all of them, resulting in the exhaustion of their energies and moneys going from agency to agency. Could the Minister do something about this?

I am aware that there is a co-ordinating committee. However, its members are fighting with one another as to which of the various groupings is to be top dog. It is wrong to throw money into agencies and then leave the poor applicant reeling from agency to agency, person to person and scheme to scheme, not knowing where he should lay his head.

I accept that there is a degree of confusion. To deal with it, a number of initiatives are under way. One, which the Deputy may have read about, is the establishment of a 18500 telephone number, where people can telephone a single number and get precise advice as to the body that is in a position to assist them.

Did the Minister attempt to telephone this number?

I telephoned the number; indeed I manned the line temporarily.

It may have provided information the day the Minister manned the telephone line, but——

I do not know about that.

The Minister should try and telephone the number now.

We are not going to telephone the number now. so we will proceed.

I will make an arrangement with the Minister to telephone the number tomorrow at 12 p.m. He will be bewildered at the reply he will get.

They may hear that we will be telephoning at that time.

Then I will not ring at 12 o'clock.

On the issue of confusion at local level, we are clearly trying to encourage that those issues would be addressed at local level. There are issues, such as cross-representational directors on the different boards, which I know a number of counties have taken on board to ensure there is not this chasing from one to the other. The clear delineation of the areas where they can co-operate would be helpful so that they are not getting into wasteful competition. There is also potential for pooling their administrative resources. We are conscious of this. It is an issue we will be keeping an eye on over the coming months. The secretary has already indicated that we will be conducting an evaluation of the progress.

Another study.

No. The Deputy is aware that one should monitor the impact of what one does. There is no point in setting up a group like this and forgetting about what impact it has. We will be anxious to monitor and make sure that we get quality added value from this initiative. It has a number of positive features. In many counties it is introducing a real concept of a plan——

What initiative are you talking about?

The county enterprise boards.

I am not running down the county enterprise boards at all.

As I understood it, you were raising the issue of conflicting——

Conflicting, yes.

——agendas between the county enterprise boards. LEADER and the others.

That is right.

This is being addressed through various measures. I am not saying that we have everything correct, but cross-representation on the different boards and co-operation in the formulation of their particular areas of activity are some of the initiatives that are being put in place. We will continue to monitor the effectiveness of that.

We will move on to examine subheads R to X.

Under subhead U, local employment services, where is the £6 million? Who got it? Did the forum get it? Did the office the Minister set up under Mr. Rody Molloy get it? Did Kildare Street get it? Who has it? What are they doing with it? What is it for?

The process undertaken initially here, as I outlined in my reply, is that the partnerships have put groups together to deal with this. They are formulating their plans as to how they will implement a guidance service——

How they will spend the money?

Essentially, it will be driven by the plans that have yet to be submitted. It is the implementation of those plans that are currently being prepared for submission to the Department that will draw down that money.

It was trumpeted with great gusto when the Estimates were announced. I am not quite clear. It came from the budget, all those months ago. Are the plans not yet in for the spending of that money? I want to get that point in. Is that correct?

No. At all times it was indicated that this was a locally based initiative. In other words, the first step was to establish the local committees involving employers, trade unions and community groups. The next step was to identify particular gaps in the services compared to the target group they wanted to serve. They would then formulate the plans which would involve training programmes and community employment initiatives perhaps and various initiatives such as guidance services and placement in open employment. They had to identify what services they wanted to put in place so that——

Is the money in the Department, is it in FÁS or where is it? Is it being drawn down?

The money is within the Department, not through FÁS——

It is not being drawn down.

It will be drawn down in accordance with the plans being put forward.

Through direct intervention through the Department or will it be drawn down through FÁs or through——

Not through FÁS, through the Department. The Department has the advice of an interdepartmental committee which will span other major players, such as the Department of Social Welfare, who will be dealing with back to work initiatives, and the area partnerships, which will be dealt with through the Department of the Taoiseach. There will be an advisory group that will advise on the feasibility of the plans put forward and the draw down will be on foot of that plan. In other words, it is created and driven from the bottom by groups. At this stage the groups are in place. They are preparing plans which will shortly be submitted.

That purse has not been opened. Did the Minister raid it or does he intend to raid it for community employment?

No, that has not been raided.

The purse has not been opened and it is the month of June. The Minister is a thrifty lad. There is no doubt about it.

Following on from where Deputy O'Rourke left off, there is £6 million allocated for the year 1995. As I understand the Minister's response, nothing of that has been spent as yet. No plans have yet been finalised for its expenditure. Are we to assume that the whole £6 million will be expended in the four months from August to the end of the year?

That remains to be seen. We are developing a whole new service. It is a new initiative. It was indicated as such. It is being piloted in 14 areas in the country. The idea is——

It is not piloted yet because it is not available.

——one that has been advocated by the all-party committee of the National Economic and Social Forum.

With respect, Minister, it is on the runway at the moment. It has not even got airborne. How does the Minister intend to spend £6 million if he has not got the plans finalised for months?

I remind the Deputy that £6 million compared to the £250 million that is spent on community employment initiatives, not to mention training initiatives, is a relatively small allocation. The key thing is that we have to draw down the money on the basis of coherent plans put forward by the local groups. The whole point of the proposal put forward by the NESF, where both parties were represented and which each endorsed, was to have coherence and bottom up addressing of the needs of the long term unemployed. There was ample evidence to indicate that many of the long term unemployed were falling between the crevasses of the existing schemes. This was a particularly targeted local based initiative to try to address the needs of the long term unemployed that were not being addressed coherently by existing schemes.

I follow all that. I follow why the Minister wants to do it. Does the Minister envisage that the £6 million will be spent in the remaining portion of the year?

It depends on the schemes and their approval. I have no doubt that the plans put forward will be considerable and will probably draw down at least that money. Obviously, the quality of the plans will have to be——

Is it available for those schemes or is the Minister already earmarking it for other uses within the Department?

It is available for those schemes.

They are not brought forward yet?

The groups have been put in place. They are formulating their plans. They will be submitted to the Department and it is on foot of those plans that the moneys will be drawn down in the second half of the year. It was only in March that we announced we were going to introduce this initiative. It is not unusual that a new initiative of this nature would take some time to start up.

Deputy O'Rourke suggests that it is not intended to spend this money this year, that it is only window dressing.

That is not the case. It was a Government decision that decided to institute this programme. The plans are out there in place. We are committed to fund the plans when they come in, but obviously they will have to be assessed for their value, in particular their added value for the long term unemployed.

Under subhead W, is the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise and Employment, Deputy E. Fitzgerald, out of favour? Why is she not here?

The Minister of State with responsibility for Labour Affairs is away on official business on behalf of the Department.

This is 7 per cent. There was an announcement yesterday, that made the papers this morning, about the new construction site building regulations by the National Authority for Occupational Health and Safety. Has the Department got over its difficulties with regard to the Royal Institute of Architects and other bodies who were fearful of the proposed finished format of the regulations for building and construction sites? I noticed that Minister of State, Deputy E. Fitzgerald, attacked the issue with great gusto this morning in the paper prior to her going away on official busines. Could the Minister tell me if the Department has got over its trepidation and fears for that section of the Department?

I have no doubt the Minister of State has dealt with any concerns of professional bodies in producing proposals in this regard. I do not have the full details to hand.

May I ask about subhead T2, trade union amalgamation. Why is there £850,000 provided for that purpose? What unions are benefiting from it? What amalgamation is being supported?

The majority is for trade union education——

I am talking about the £150,000.

The £150,000 for trade union amalgamations.

It is not for the Bar Council is it?

The mergers under discussion at present include the amalgamation of the ASTI and the TUI and the transfer of the——

One may forget it. They are never going to amalgamate.

——Irish Print Union and the Building and Allied Trades Union to SIPTU.

Whatever about that, the teachers will not amalgamate.

How much of it is going for the ASTI and TUI merger——

They do not know what awaits them.

——and how is it being spent on the merger? They seem to be very active.

It was included last year also.

There is a list of eligible expenditure the Government has approved in order to encourage the consolidation of the unions and the amalgamation of unions. It was in response to a feeling that it was better to have a more unified structure. For many years how the Government has supported such amalgamations. I do not have to hand the actual detailed pending items. I have information on the number of trade unions which has declined——

I do not want to hear about that, I want to know about the year 1995. What is it to be spent on?

I will have to communicate with the Deputy on the ASTI and TUI matter.

It is not going to happen.

They are working on it. Optimistic noises are being made.

They were working on it eight years ago when I was in the Department.

I could have answered that question in detail myself.

I bet you could, Chairman.

The £150,000 is after all an estimate. The draw down will depend on what comes forward under the eligible heads. It is not allocated to the unions and we then wait to see what happens.

Has the Minister information now on subhead W?

Discussions have taken place over the past three months in the advisory committee on health and safety on the construction industry as regards aspects of the draft regulations which continued to cause concern to some parties. Advice was obtained from the Office of the Attorney General. There is a regulation in relation to the competence of project supervisors. There are regulations on the health and safety plan, the safety file. There are transition arrangements. The outstanding points on the regulations have been resolved provided that, on the part of the professional interests, the advisory committee's report on safety and health generally in the industry includes a comment about their misgivings. The professional interests feel that there may be some issues, but by and large they are satisfied with the arrangement on that basis.

I had an encounter recently with the professional body of architects who expressed reservations to me. I thought the regulations had been so arranged that all their concerns had been addressed. It appears not.

My understanding is that they have. The key points have been resolved and they have agreed on the major issues. However, they have certain misgivings on which they have reserved their position.

The Minister should put his mind to this matter. It has the potential for becoming difficult to resolve if it is not resolved now. Loudly declaiming to them is not the best way of getting the position clarified for them. I suggest the Minister sets about that task.

I accept the Deputy's concern. Considerable efforts have been made to try to iron out issues and on major points some agreement has been reached, while there remain some differences. I will take note of the Deputy's point.

A sum of £1,000 is provided under subhead S for grants associated with the winding up of Kilkenny Design Workshops. What extra expenditure is envisaged this year in relation to that item?

The only annual item of expenditure is public liability insurance on the former premises of Kilkenny Design Workshops.

There was no provision last year for that.

It comes up for renewal at the beginning of each year. It is less than £1,000.

That is an actual provision. It is not a nominal provision in anticipation.

It is an actual provision.

We will now move on to subheads Y1 to Z, training and employment.

May I beg your indulgence, Chairman? I did not deal with subhead X as it was on another page.

I must remind the Deputy that I must operate as laid down in Standing Orders. You may make a quick comment on subhead X.

Why is the Minister running the IPC into the ground?

The position of the IPC is under consideration at present.

Is that why the Minister is running it into the ground?

It has, obviously, had its difficulties and these have to be assessed. It had set itself targets for self-sufficiency and——

There is self-sufficiency and there is slaughter. The Minister is on the way to slaughter it. We used to cut it, but my goodness this is draconian. It does good work. There are decent people in the IPC who have fine ideas. I urge the Minister not to succumb to the blandishments of those who say it can be a cut further.

The Estimate is higher than the Estimate last year. A Supplementary Estimate was needed in December of more than £200,000. How is it contended that it is "slaughter" in comparison to last year?

It is down 33 per cent. If it is to be given an extra amount at the end of the year——

That is what had to be done last year.

Is it being wound up?

The position has to be reviewed. We will take note of what the Deputy has said, but it has had its difficulties and these are under review. We want to assess its future role and how it can deal with its problems.

Subhead Y2 deals with training for the employed and allows about £3.4 million. It is under a different subhead from last year, when it was submerged with others. There is not a comparable figure for the 1994 provisional outturn. Is that correct?

There is a comparable figure —£2.85 million.

What are the Minister's plans for training for the employed? The Minister was most vigorous in putting forward ambitious plans when he was in Opposition. What happened to those plans?

That is one of the issues which——

Where is the Minister's zeal? I ask the Minister to show me his zeal.

That is one of the issues at the core of the current review of training policy.

I went through that last year too. The Minister spoke in glowing terms of the IBEC report on training for those in employment.

Yes, the Minister loved it. The IBEC report bedevilled us all because we were not doing anything about it. What does the Minister think of the IBEC report on training for those in employment?

The IBEC report is a very useful contribution to the debate. I place an importance on dealing with the skills gap which a number of reports have established exists in Irish industry. For example, the Culliton report and the NESC report identified that at certain critical levels in our industrial sector the skill levels are below those in countries with best practice. We need to address the needs of training for those in industry. However, some critical issues must be addressed. For example, what is the State's role in this area? Why is it that industry does not itself recognise the very important role of investing in the future training of its workforce?

I am not of the view that one simply cranks up the State's investment in this sector as an easy response. We must examine why there is underprovision in this area and devise responses which will encourage industry to take it more seriously and prime the pump in this area without involving the State in the ongoing provision of an input which industry itself should recognise as of critical importance to its future.

Will the Minister set up a subcommittee in FÁS, or a separate committee outside FÁS, which will have money and give it to employers who wish to give new and innovative training to their employees? What mechanism will the Minister use? Leaving aside the amount of money — clearly, it is not enough — what conduit will the Minister use for the disbursement of the money?

As the Deputy is aware, a number of variations on how that should be done have been put forward. They vary from one in which it would be completely under the control of industry to a division within FÁS. A sub-board within FÁS is another variant. However, one must first decide on the proper policy response before one decides on the appropriate structures. At this stage we need to address the more fundamental issues regarding the proper role of the State in relation to training in this area. From that I hope to be in a position to make the decision on whether a sub-board within FÁS or another more radical type of structure is needed to deal with this issue.

In relation to FÁS, is the Minister happy that the central administration expenses should increase by well over 10 per cent? Will the Minister explain why there is a £50 million increase in the direct cost of employment schemes and justify that in terms of numbers?

My apologies. I did not catch the Deputy's second point.

Will the Minister explain why there is an extra £50 million in the direct cost of employment schemes? Why does European Social Fund funding seem to be decreasing by approximately one third and why is domestic funding increasing in this area?

The increase in the administration essentially came hand in hand with the expansion of the community employment programme, in which participation increased from 20,000 to its current level of 40,000. There was an additional staffing of 65 in FÁS.

Was that necessary?

The decision was made to match the expanded activity. There is no doubt that it was required. If the scale of a programme is doubled, there are additional administration costs. The additional costs are commensurate with the expansion of that programme.

Is that the case? Was there not a considerable amount of underutilised administrative capacity in FÁS before that programme started?

I am not aware of an administrative underutilisation. When the scale of a programme of that nature is doubled, involving the handling of sponsors, participants and processing an increased throughput of 20,000, an administrative overhead of 65 people to deal with it is commensurate with what was assessed by both my Department and the Department of Finance, which is involved in this matter, as a reasonable ratio of administration to activity.

The increase in the direct cost follows directly from the expansion of the community employment scheme. This programme expanded from an initial base of 20,000 to its current base of 40,000. However, the average for last year was just over 30,000, whereas the average for this year is now 40,000. The average participation has gone from 30,000 to 40,000 and this explains the additional spending on that programme.

Why is there a decline in European funding?

The decreasing European funding is in respect of programmes other than community employment. The total EU funding for FÁS in 1994 amounted to £85.2 million, of which £11.7 million was allocated to community employment and £73.5 million to administration and the remaining FÁS programmes. EU funding in 1995 will be approximately £67 million, of which approximately £10.9 million will be channelled to community employment and £56.2 million to administration and FÁS programmes.

Why is there a decline?

These figures were predicated on the expected outcome of £8 billion in the negotiations on the Community support framework.

We were disappointed in that.

The community employment schemes never do well.

For whatever reason, the amount did not come through.

That was one reason. The other reason is that there has been a restructuring of overall ESF money, with more of it going to activities other than FÁS.

Did the EU express dissatisfaction with the FÁS programme and did it insist on removing funding from this scheme? Why has it decreased, given that 20,000, or an average of 10,000, extra people are on schemes?

The community employment project was never heavily supported by the EU. It will only provide support in relation to the training element. The community employment scheme is predominately an employment activity.

However, it also has a training module.

It also has a training module.

Why is the EU reducing last year's level of support?

The reduction in support is in other areas. The support for the community employment scheme is largely unchanged at approximately £11 million.

The current payment from the European Social Fund——

The reduction has been in other areas. The moneys have been channelled to other areas of human resources, such as education.

Was that at its behest or ours?

It was at the negotiations of a new plan with Europe. We drew up the programmes and that is the outcome.

The Minister for Defence and the Marine recently indicated to the committee that a voluntary redundancy package for members of the Defence Forces will be announced later in the year. The people who take up that package will find the situation more difficult than people in any other area of employment. For this reason they will need a special training programme. What help could the Minister provide for members of the Defence Forces who avail of this package? Are any plans afoot at present?

The bulk of participation in FÁS schemes is by people who are not at work. The schemes are primarily geared for people who are out of work, such as anyone who loses their job, for whatever reason. They can avail of the various training schemes. There are additional restrictions that confine community employment largely to people who have been one year out of work or who are on unemployment assistance. I do not know if the latter would be immediately eligible for community employment or whether that would take a lapse of a year. All of the various FÁS schemes, across the board, are open to people who are seeking gainful employment and who feel that training would help them in pursuit of that.

I refer to community employment under subhead Y4 again. What steps has the Minister taken to improve the community employment programme? Last year he called it a souped up social employment scheme. I remember being annoyed at the time with his language and the disrepute he cast on it. I notice that the Minister is now praising it highly on radio and television. There is a need to bring community employment a step further. There is a need to look at supervisors, their tenure and their rate of pay. There is a huge amount of work to be done in this country, whether on infrastructural works, county council works, tidy towns, hospitals, health care, care for the disadvantaged, or as teachers's aides. All of these are things which would make life more bearable, if not easier, for many people. There is lack of help in many essential areas. That is one side of the equation. The other side is that there are many people who want to work, as the 70,000 outstanding applicants for community employment still show. The Minister talked about bringing it a step further. What are his ideas on that? Does he see it as being citizen-type work, or does he see temporary contracts being given to people who are providing this necessary labour? It would make a real difference in the long term unemployment figures if the Minister were to give time and effort to devising proper employment, even if of a temporary nature. It would be of a temporary nature but with certification and a chance to lead on to further employment. Has the Minister developed his ideas on that?

The Government are anxious to do what the Deputy indicates. The task force which was involved in refining the proposal in relation to local employment service is currently looking at precisely that issue — how schemes such as the community employment programme can be improved. As the Deputy will know, her Government instituted a pilot programme with 1,000 people under the Conference of Religious of Ireland. This is also up and running at the moment and will come up for appraisal of its impact as an alternative variation. These various initiatives are being assessed and we have asked the task force to report, as far as I can recollect, before the end of this year on these initiatives and how we can better refine them.

Is the average number of people on the dole coupled with the average number of people who are on training schemes of this kind that the Minister is now talking about going to be higher or lower at the end of 1995 than it was at the end of 1994?

I suspect that the year end figures will not be dramatically different. The average participation in community employment at the end of 1994 was just over 40,000. The average partipication for this year will again be 40,000. The year end figure may be a little below that. The participation on various training schemes is around 16,000. My understanding is that the throughput this year will be roughly similar to last year.

I suggest to the Minister that when one adds people on training schemes and community employment schemes to those who are unemployed and those over 55 years of age who are no longer signing on, the effective rate of unemployment is, in fact, increasing.

That is not the case.

How much will it go down by, over this year?

Unemployment plus participation in schemes?

Unemployment plus participation in schemes plus people between 55 and 65 years of age——

Pre-retirement.

——pre-retirement people who are no longer in the system. I suggest to the Minister that it is going to increase.

That is not the case. The unemployment figures in the year to date, compared to last year, would be down by something in the order of 10,000 people.

The Minister said that the average number of people on training schemes has gone up from 30,000 to 40,000 in one category alone.

Last year there were only 25,000 people on community employment and now there are 40,000. That makes a difference of 15,000.

On community employment?

Community employment participation — April to April — has increased. Year end to year end, it will not increase. The decline in unemployment since the Government came into power has nothing to do——

I did not ask the Minister that. I am not making a political point about the Government.

We are drifting.

No, we are not, I am asking a simple question. Is the total number of people effectively unemployed going down? I am not getting a clear answer to that.

The total of people effectively unemployed is going down. The year end participation on the various schemes has declined since the end of 1994, not considerably but slightly. It is roughly the same. Unemployment has declined significantly since then, of the order of 5,000 people since December.

I thought that the Minister said to me earlier that the average participation number for 1995 would be 40,000 people and the average for 1994 was 30,000 people.

The Deputy is asking about points in time. He asked if unemployment is now declining, if we add in participation on the schemes. I answered yes.

If there is an average of 10,000 more people on schemes and 5,000 fewer people unemployed, I suggest to the Minister that there is a net increase in effective unemployment.

The increase in participation in community employment all occurred in 1994. The fall in unemployment since the end of 1994 has not been in any way assisted by increased participation on such schemes. The opposite has been happening; there has been a cutback in participation on schemes.

We have given this question sufficient time.

It was going to be, but the Minister corrected it, after lots of prodding.

He corrected it.

It was going to be. There is no substantial difference in participation but unemployment has declined by 5,000 people.

There is, because we went from 20,000 to 40,000 people. The last Government's view was that any increase we had in employment can be equated with the increase in the number of people on community employment. That is quite clear from the figures which we had. The Minister has a lot more people on his schemes than there were this time last year.

That is correct, from this time last year; but if the Deputy takes the position now compared to the end of last year, there were exactly the same number.

Now, but average year on year?

The average, year on year, has certainly increased. There is no doubt about that.

We are parading under false colours, and I do not mean the Minister only.

We have debated this for long enough and I am going to wrap it up right now.

All I can say is that since growth ceased in the community employment scheme at the end of last year, unemployment has continued to decline.

Minimally.

By about 5,000.

The number of people at work is significantly more.

We are not talking about that now.

It is relevant. It is significantly more. Year end to year end is the comparison to make for the answer to the question.

An average during a year and an average during year.

For the answer to Deputy McDowell's question, there was a real fall of 11,200 in the live register numbers.

That is complimented by a real increase in the average number of people on community employment of 10,000.

A real increase in community employment. That is what we are saying — it is 10,000 exactly.

We are getting into the area of speculation. We are getting nowhere in this debate and I am finishing it. I gave quite a lot of latitude on this subject. I thank the Minister and his staff.

There is an important point of fact that should be recorded. The fall in the five months is 11,200 and there has been no commensurate fall in the numbers participating in CE schemes. The numbers at the end of December and the numbers now are approximately the same.

Are you talking about the underlying trend or are you talking about the con job?

The underlying trend would be of the order of 5,000.

The seasonally adjusted underlying trend is about 5,000.

But that is 5,000 that was not taken out last year.

The number is not 11,000 as was trotted out to us. It is deceitful to give the other figures.

It is not.

I want to terminate the meeting. We have had a good debate up to now and I would not want to spoil a successful evening. I thank the Minister, the Minister of State and their officials for the efficient manner in which they produced the Estimates and the documentation supplied to Members. I thank the spokespersons, and in particular Deputy O'Rourke, who had to take the brunt of it for the best part of the meeting.

We meet again next Wednesday to discuss the Estimates for the Department of Transport, Energy and Communications.

The Select Committee adjourned at 5.55 p.m.

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