I would like to make some progress this morning and would appreciate Members's co-operation in trying to achieve this. At the conclusion of our last meeting we were considering amendment No. 6.
Business of Select Committee.
At the last meeting we had received correspondence from a group that wished to address the committee and I asked for clarification of that. The Chairman was to come back to me on that issue.
The clarification was only given to me about 15 minutes before the meeting and I apologise to the Deputy for not coming back to him. The Deputy asked an important question and apparently quite a bit of advice had to be sought on it to clarify the matter. I am advised that it would not be appropriate, once the Bill has commenced on Committee Stage, to take submissions. As I said at the last meeting, there is nothing wrong with interested parties arranging meetings through the convenors with Members from various political groupings or independent Members, but I am advised that it would not be appropriate and in accordance with the procedures laid down for the committee to do that at this stage.
If the matter is being pressed any further than that, what I will be recommending is that I would proceed to put the matter down for the Committee on Procedures and Privileges for examination and a decision on it. The change that was made in the Standing Orders in March, 1995, and it has not been employed by the committees in general as yet. It would probably require some discussion at Committee on Procedure and Privileges level for clarification purposes. On that basis I have to rule that it would not be appropriate to take submissions, but Members can get witness submissions and if any of those come to the secretariat or myself, I will ensure that they are circulated to the Members.
I raised this issue before we started Committee Stage of the Bill and the correspondence was received in advance of Committee Stage starting. It was in the interests of democracy that the Standing Orders were changed to allow interested groups to address committees. It is disappointing, to say the least, that when a group that will be drastically affected by this Bill requests to at least put its views before the committee, it is refused in this matter. I ask that if the only course left is to refer the matter to the Committee on Procedures and Privileges, it be done straight away.
If the Deputy requests that, I will ensure that it is done before the evening is out. I will refer it to the Ceann Comhairle's office and ask him to arrange for it to be included on the agenda for clarification by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.
Who are the concerned people?
A number of letters were received from different groups and circulated to the Members of the committee with a covering letter, as directed by me, to the Clerk.
The particular group in question that wrote in and whose letter was circulated to us — the Inner City Organisation's Network — have written to the Minister independently of the committee. They represent the unregistered traders in Dublin city centre — those without pitches or licences — who have been campaigning for some years for recognition.
At this stage I have met more organisations and persons concerning this Bill than I thought there were street traders in the first place. If they continue to found new organisations and all the rest, I am quite happy to help the Deputy in any way that I can.
As the question has been raised formally, it is appropriate for me to read the advice into the record of the committee's proceedings.
In response to the Minister, if that is an offer and he is prepared to see them himself — they have written to him a couple of times over the last few months — it would be helpful.
I thank the Minister for that. It would help to resolve the problem raised by Deputy Gregory. The advice I received is as follows: under paragraph 18 of the terms of reference of this committee, the committee has the power to receive submissions and hear evidence from interested persons and organisations. This power was added by order of the Dáil on 1 March, 1995. If the committee wishes to use this provision to take evidence in relation to a Bill, evidence should be taken before the time appointed for Committee Stage to commence. Also, the correct approach in such circumstances and the approach adopted in the past by committees which receive submissions and hear evidence is for the committee to publish its intention to take submissions on a Bill so that the other interested parties receive a similar opportunity to make submissions. It is normal in such circumstances for the committee to firstly consider a written submission from the party concerned and then to adjudicate on whether or not it is considered that the taking of evidence is necessary. Committee Stage of the Casual Trading Bill, 1995, has already commenced and no opportunity has been given for all interested parties to make their submissions. Interruption of a Committee Stage examination in order to take evidence from a single group would be a major departure from the normal acceptable parliamentary procedure and I am advised to rule that it is not apparopriate at this point to take evidence from an interested group in relation to the Committee Stage of the Casual Trading Bill, 1995. I am further advised that if a Deputy wishes to have the matter clarified further, I will arrange for the matter to be put on the agenda of the Committee on Procedures and Privileges for further clarification, if necessary.
I support that. Since our last meeting much interest has been shown in this Bill and there have been some requests from influential business organisations who expressed concern about some of the sections and amendments. The Chairman should try to influence the Committee on Procedures and Privileges to allow us hear some of those organisations. It is anti-democratic if we do not hear them.
I have already read the official advice into the record. It would not be appropriate to have any further discussion on the matter, but I note Deputy O'Keeffe's point.
Casual Trading Bill, 1994: Committee Stage (Resumed).