Is amendment No. 24 being pressed?
SECTION 30.
Debate resumed on amendment No. 24:
In page 28, between lines 40 and 41, to insert the following subsection:
"(7) The Minister shall appoint two persons nominated in a prescribed manner by a prescribed Chamber of Commerce to be each a Director of a Company.".
—(Deputy M. Smith)
Yes, as we indicated on the last occasion. We made a minor change to facilitate the Minister by reducing the number of recommended nominations to come from the chambers of commerce from two to one. We have been talking for years about bottom-up policies and involving local interests. Many representative organisations will seek nominations from the Minister and this amendment would help him and would be a sensible way to proceed. In the course of that debate we concentrated on one amendment No. 25 which reads:
In page 28, between lines 40 and 41, to insert the following subsection:
"(7) The Minister shall appoint one person nominated in a prescribed manner by a prescribed Ship Agency to be a Director of a Company.".
The Irish ship agents are well qualified to act as directors of the new harbour companies. They are very experienced in the local culture and workings of the ports and knowledgeable in the ports' geography and business possibilities. They are in a unique position to promote the attractions and possibilities of local areas. The local agent has to sell the local port to his principal and convince the ship owner that his requirements will be well and speedily handled by the harbour company, that his transport supply requirements will be satisfactorily resolved and that stevedoring and docker needs are readily available in order to ensure a speedy turnaround. The agent has the necessary contacts to facilitate all the aspects of the vessel's call and has staff available at all times fully qualified in all matters concerning the ship and its master. The agent knows better than most the requirements of the business side of the industry. He is completely commercially oriented due to his long experience in developing and maintaining his own business and we consider that one agent director of any harbour company would be an excellent asset to the board and an excellent adviser for his fellow commercial directors in ensuring the success of all the shipping aspects of the port's business. As the committee will be aware, they have been previously nominated under the old authority and that system worked very well.
We had a long debate on these issues on the last occasion. I thought we were at the point on that occasion where the amendment was about to be put. I had replied and Deputy Smith had made the case for his amendment.
The core issue in relation to business and commercial representation or involvement on the boards of directors of these companies is not in dispute. I stated a number of times on the last occasion, and I repeat, that it is intended to appoint persons as directors of these companies who will be from commercial, business and professional backgrounds. It is also intended to seek the views and recommendations of the various chambers of commerce and bodies representing port useers in order to inform those decisions.
It is not intended to grant automatic statutory representation to any of those bodies for the reasons I stated on the last occasion. Nor, indeed, is it intended to confine representation of the business or commercial interests to one or two members of the boards of the companies. We envisage much more significant involvement of people with commercial and business backgrounds than that. I had a meeting yesterday with the Chambers of Commerce of Ireland. I am satisfied that, when these boards are appointed, the chambers of commerce and the commercial and business interests will generally agree to the composition of the boards.
Amendment put.
The Select Committee divided: Tá, 9; Níl, 12.
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Tá |
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Byrne, Hugh. Cullen, Martin. Molloy, Robert. Moynihan, Donal. |
Nolan, M. J. Ó Cuív, Éamon. Doherty, Seán. Smith, Michael. O'Donoghue, John. |
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Níl |
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Bill, Michael. |
Finucane, Michael. |
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Boylan, Andrew. |
Gilmore, Eamon. |
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Broughan, Tommy. |
McGinley, Dinny. |
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Byrne, Eric. |
Ring, Michael. |
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Costello, Joe. |
Sheehan, P. J. |
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Dukes, Alan. |
Walsh, Eamonn. |
Amendment declared lost.
I move amendment No. 25:
In page 28, between lines 40 and 41, to inset the following subsection:
"(7) The Minister shall appoint one person nominated in a prescribed manner by a prescribed Ship Agency to be a Director of a Company.".
Amendment put and declared lost.
I move amendment No. 26:
In page 28, between lines 40 and 41, to inset the following subsection:
"(7) The Minister shall appoint 1 person nominated by the Chamber of Commerce in the Board's area to be a Director of a company.".
Amendment put.
The Select Committee divided: Tá, 9; Níl, 12.
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Tá |
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Byrne, Hugh Cullen, Martin. Doherty, Seán. Molloy, Robert. |
Moynihan, Dónal. Nolan, M.J. Ó Cuív, Éamon. Ó Donoghue, John. Smith, Michael. |
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Níl |
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Bell, Michael. |
Dukes, Alan. |
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Boylan, Andrew. |
Finucane, Michael. |
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Bradford, Paul. |
Gilmore, Éamon. |
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Broughan, Tommy. |
McGinley, Dinny. |
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Byrne, Eric. |
Sheehan, P.J. |
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Costello, Joe |
Walsh, Éamon. |
Amendment declared lost.
Question proposed: "That section 30 stand part of the Bill."
Two point arise on subsection 6 which gives the Minister power to appoint three persons nominated in the prescribed manner by a prescribed local authority. Will the Minister give some details of the prescribed manner? How does the Minister determine who are the prescribed authorities and what representation they shall have? At an earlier stage of this debate we heard that some harbour authorities' areas have more than one local authority. In some cases local authorities have equal standing. In other areas the harbour is located within the local authority area of a city but the county has had representation. Can the Minister give a simple explanation on how he proposes to determine this? In the case of Galway Harbour Board and the new company, Galway Corporation and Galway County Council previouly had the right to nominate members. What will the position be in the future when it is an uneven number? Is it proposed that there shall be two members representing Galway Corporation and one member representing Galway County Council, or will the three members come from the corporation area which is the city within which the harbour board is located?
A decision has not yet been made on that. The number of local authority representatives is the only issue which has been decided on. It is intended that after the enactment of the legislation the Minister for the Marine will consult the Minister for the Environment about the composition of the local authority membership in respect of each of the harbour companies. I expect that the Minister for the Environment will, in turn, consult the local authorities concerned because obviously they will have a view on the matter. I intend to seek the views of harbour authorities on the matter in respect of each of the harbour companies concerned.
The issue is straightforward in cases where there is only one local authority and one harbour company. In such cases it is likely that the entire local authority membership will come from the local authority in that area.
Deputy Molloy instanced the case of Galway where both the corporation and the county council have had representation on the old harbour commissioners. A number of options are open there. One is that the entire membership would be from Galway Corporation since the port is situated in the corporation's administrative area. A second option is that both the corporation and the county council would be entitled to nominate directors since the harbour serves not only the hinterland of industry, business and the community in the corporation area but also in the wider area. It should be relatively easy to resolve that issue in cases where two local authorities have to be accommodated.
The most complicated situation will arise in the case of Limerick Port Authority where Limerick Harbour Commissioners currently have representation from five local authorities. Clearly that arrangement will not be possible in the new harbour company. Through discussions with the Minister for the Environmment,the local authorities and harbour boards concerned, some means will ahve to be found to provide for local representation that is fair and generally acceptable. The matter will require consultation both with the local authorities, the Minister for the Environment and the harbour boards concerned before a final decision can be made on it.
I find the Minister's answer very unsatisfactory because one has to bear in mind that this Bill has been in gestation for a long period. There is no good reason these matters have not been decided before now so that we would know the full story when the Bill is put before the Dáil for enactment. The section that I referred to states that a decision shall be made in the prescribed manner and I asked the Minister if he would state what the prescribed manner is. Is that laid out in some other section in this Bill and, if not, where can one find it?
The prescribed manner will be in the form of regulations that will be laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas. They will not be made until the process of consultation I described has taken place. Had we attempted to set it down in the primary legislation without a process of consultation with the local authorities involved Deputy Molloy would probably whistle a different tune. It is only proper to have a process of consultation following which regulations will be prepared and laid before the Oireachtas.
If the Minister had genuinely sought to resolve this matter by consultation he had ample time to do so. However, it would seem that by not doing so prior to the Bill being passed, he will take unto himself the power to dictate the outcome of this division. From what he said, the Minister seems to anticipate that this could cause dissent and that he can overcome that by issuing a diktat from his office so that will be the end of the matter. He will have the power to do so under this Bill.
In other cases where matters had to be resolved between local authorities they were resolved amicably prior to the final decisions. I can cite instances where one body was ceding authority to another or one was assuming county borough status — equal status to a county council — and in those cases many matters had to be resolved before a final decision was made. In this case, the Bill is to be passed first and then the Minister will dictate which local authority will have representation and the level of that representation.
It seems that the Minister can ignore the views of the local authorities which have been involved in this since the 1946 Act and have given excellent service to the harbour boards. It has been a period of growth. Prior to the availability of substantial funds from Europe, the harbour boards had to struggle with whatever revenue they could generate by their activities, with very little State assistance. The State is getting involved at a time when substantial capital funds are available from Brussels.
This Bill has been under discussion for several years and decisions on the division of representation——
The debate is becoming repetitive at this stage.
I have difficulty in hearing the Minister of State and the Chairman from where I am sitting. There is amplification in the Dáil Chamber but I do not see any here. I am speaking into a microphone but I cannot see any speakers.
We can higher the volume.
The Deputy should come closer.
The Deputy should not be modest, he should come up to the front.
I will ask the Minister of State to reply briefly because the discussion is becoming repetitive.
We can vote on it.
The Deputy has nothing to vote on as he did not table an amendment on the matter.
I thought the Minister of State would have a reasonable explanation.
The Deputy will get the explanation but whether he accepts it is another day's work.
I am anxious to make progress.
Deputy Molloy said this Bill was in gestation for a number of years. The Murphy report appeared in 1992 and the Government brought forward this Bill within months of taking office. In fairness to the previous Minister, a great deal of the preparatory work had been done. It is not fair to say that there has been an undue delay. If every report of a review body was acted upon and legislated as quickly, perhaps there would be less public cynicism about reports lying on shelves.
Deputy Molloy's specific question was about how local authority representation will be decided. He spoke about it being done by diktat and so on. It is deliberately not being done by diktat. Deputy Molloy raised this point on the first day of Committee Stage in July and I invited him then to offer some suggestions as to how the local authorities should be represented on the harbour boards. I instanced for him the case of Galway, which he repeated today, where two local authorities have an interest in the board and I asked him — I am repeating the request now — to offer his opinion on how the representation should be decided. It would be helpful to have the views of the committee or individual Members on how that might be done and I am very willing to listen to those views, in addition to those of the local authorities and harbour boards concerned.
To date, the Deputy has neither made a formal proposal in the form of an amendment nor expressed an opinion at this meeting to indicate either a general view on how local authorities should be represented on the boards or a specific opinion about Galway port, with which he is most familiar. I would like to hear his opinion on whether Galway Corporation should have three directors on the board or if there should be a formula whereby Galway Corporation have two directors and Galway County Council have one, or some other formula.
I have given my view. I said that in the past these matters were amicably settled between the local authorities concerned. They should have been given the opportunity——
They were given the opportunity.
They were not given the opportunity. There was no procedure to resolve this matter before this Bill was initiated. The local authorities——
I must interrupt because this is the third time this point was made and the Minister of State has answered it.
I am entitled to put this on the record.
If the Deputy does that, then the Minister of State will have to reply and we will be here until Christmas.
Perhaps we will be here until Christmas.
The matter has been discussed adequately.
Question put.
The Select Committee divided: Tá, 12; Níl, 8.
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Tá |
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Bell, Michael |
Dukes, Alan |
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Boylan, Andrew |
Finucane, Michael |
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Bradford, Paul |
Gilmore, Eamon |
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Broughan, Tommy |
Ring, Michael |
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Costello, Joe |
Sheehan, P. J. |
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Deasy, Austin |
Walsh, Eamon |
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Níl |
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Brennan, Matty |
Moynihan, Donal |
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Byrne, Hugh |
Ó Cuív, Éammon |
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Doherty, Seán |
Ryan, Eoin |
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Molloy, Robert |
Smith, Michael |
Question declared carried.