I welcome the party spokespersons to consider the Transport (Dublin Light Rail) (No. 2) Bill, 1996. I also welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Doyle, and her officials. We have made provision for another full day's meeting next Tuesday. Is that agreed? Agreed.
Business of Select Committee.
The original notice of the meeting stated that there would be a private session at 11 a.m. What happened? We have a new agenda. This is the third version we have received.
I was waiting for a quorum so that I could commence the briefing session. There was no quorum until 11.15 a.m. It was not possible to have a briefing session without a quorum.
I have been here for ten minutes.
We now have a quorum and I propose to proceed with business. I requested the Department to submit a briefing document on the Bill in advance of the meeting. I understand that was done.
I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Doyle. Will the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications be involved in our deliberations at any stage today or during the course of our dealings in this committee? I would like clarification on this because the Minister had a very close involvement with this legislation in the past.
I am not sure whether that is relevant to the business of the Committee. The Minister of State is present. I will have the matter clarified.
I expect to be taking all Committee Stage.
Transport (Dublin Light Rail) (No. 2) Bill, 1996: Committee Stage.
Section 1 agreed to.
On a point of order, people are entering the room.
I have given instructions to the staff to allow nine members of the public observe the proceedings of the committee. Seating is provided for them. If any further members of the public wish to observe the proceedings of the committee we have arranged for a rota system until we get a larger room. As it happens, there were only nine requests and we have provided for all of those. Members of public must be seated.
Will the Minister give even a 30 second summary of each section before we discuss it?
There is no provision for that in Standing Orders and I am proceeding as I have indicated.
On a point of order, I wish to clarify my position. I submitted to your office, as is normal, a written statement from Deputy Fox who is a member of this committee stating that I could substitute for her. For some obscure reason that was not acceptable. While I can attend, I cannot participate as a full member in that I cannot vote on the amendments in the same way as can a substitute member of any party. I would like the reason for that put on the record.
According to Standing Orders, there is no provision for an Independent Member to substitute for another Independent Member. If you wish to have the matter raised I will ensure that it is brought to the attention of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges to consider if an anomaly exists in the regulations and I will come back to the Deputy as soon as possible.
There is a vote in the Dáil.
The procedure is that a vote of the House takes precedence over the business of the committee, therefore, I will suspend the business until after the vote. I suggest that we return immediately after the vote. I will proceed as soon as we have a quorum but not later than 11.45 a.m.
Sitting suspended at 11.25 a.m. and resumed at 11.55 a.m.
We will resume on section 2, amendment No. 1 in the name of Deputy Séamus Brennan.
On a point of order, I understood I could not participate in this committee because I was not a member of a group and, therefore, could not interchange with a fellow member of a group.
I appreciate the problem. I undertook to bring the matter to the attention of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. However, I have to operate Standing Orders as they are, not as Members might like them to be.
I accept that, Chairman, and I would not expect you to do otherwise. However, it has come to my attention that because there is a multi — party Government, Members of the Government are not substituting with their own group but are interchanging between parties. In those circumstances, I fail to understand why I cannot officially substitute for Deputy Mildred Fox.
There was an amendment to the Standing Orders which provided for the interchangeability of Members on the Government side but not on the Opposition side. Even if that were to apply to Deputy Gregory, he still would not be eligible because he is not a member of a Government party. The amendment to Standing Orders applies only to parties in Government.
Will you undertake to raise that at the Committee on Procedure and Privileges?
I will and as the Deputy knows, once I give my word I keep it. I will ensure he is given a full briefing of the outcome of that discussion. Deputy Mildred Fox, who is a member of the Committee, may initiate amendments. The problem is that she must be present to move them. Deputy Gregory could speak on the amendments but he would not be eligible to vote. That is a facility, if the Deputy wishes to avail of it, which might get over that point.
I will be at the mercy of Deputy Mildred Fox. I am sure she would co-operate but it is obviously a most unsatisfactory——
Deputy Fox is not substituted by Deputy Gregory. He is, as a Member of the Oireachtas, entitled to speak. However, Deputy Mildred Fox is entitled vote. There is another vote in the Dáil.
There is a jinx on the Bill and we should abandon it altogether.
I second that.
I cannot comment on that.
Sitting suspended at 12.02 p.m. and resumed at 12.10 p.m.
Is it agreed that the lunch break should be from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m? Agreed. Unfortunately, the Minister of State has a luncheon engagement.
The afternoon session is now due to begin at 2 o'clock. Would it be possible to continue beyond 5.30 p.m.?
I am in the hands of the Members. I will monitor progress and facilitate Members within reason. The best course is to make progress and then indicate at the appropriate stage whether to adjourn or continue.
There would not be any point in continuing if the Minister of State had to leave.
I could stay another hour.
I will be flexible and try to suit both sides within reason. I am available until 12 o'clock tonight if necessary. A reasonable proposal will be acceptable to me.
The Chairman met a number of interest groups that will be badly affected by this Bill. They had hoped to make oral submissions to the committee. It has been the practice for groups to address other committees. These groups strongly believe that there has been a complete lack of consultation on this issue. Their frustration is now compounded by the fact that although their businesses, homes and communities will be directly affected by the Bill, they cannot make oral submissions to the committee. Is there anything in Standing Orders to permit the community groups concerned to make oral submissions over the next few days?
At the request of the Deputy and other colleagues, I agreed to meet representatives of different groups and individuals this morning, prior to this meeting. We spent approximately one hour discussing the various points of view they hold. For me, the object of the exercise was to facilitate colleagues who requested this. I have done this before, for example, on the harbours Bill I met 25 different delegations.
I indicated that the meeting was not a decision making forum but rather it afforded me an opportunity to explain the procedure in accordance with Standing Orders and allowed them make points. I arranged for a member of the committee secretariat to take note of the points made and I indicated that I would have them circulated to Members.
It is not possible to receive delegations once Committee Stage has commenced because we would need to advertise nationally in order to afford any interested party an opportunity to attend the committee. That procedure was not requested by the Opposition or other Members. I must, therefore, proceed in accordance with the decision on the Casual Trading Bill which, coincidentally, was raised by the same Deputy.
My decision was put before the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and was unanimously adopted as the correct procedure and position for me to take. I am sorry the facility is not available but I must abide by the Standing Orders of the House. If I did otherwise I would be in breach of Standing Orders and therefore not conducting the business of the committee in accordance with the law.
I appreciate the Chairman's clarification of Standing Orders. However, there is a case for simplifying them with regard to this matter. Effectively, they make it virtually impossible to have satisfactory consultation with interested groups or individuals and that is not the fault of the committee. Within the terms of reference, it is difficult for the 21 members of the committee to be briefed by outside groups who have an interest in matters such as these which are far ranging and have tremendous implications for their businesses and livelihoods. The Committee on Procedure and Privileges should examine this matter for future reference.
Documentation was distributed at that meeting on behalf of Arran Quay Terrace. Twenty-one copies were made available to the secretary for circulation to Members.
This request was made to me late last night so there were time constraints. I agreed to travel here earlier than usual in order to accede to the request made by Deputies Costello and Gregory. I arranged for staff of the House to take notes of the points raised — that was a concession and not a right — and have them circulated not only to Members but to the Minister and his staff. That is not provided for in Standing Orders but was a concession granted at the request of and in co-operation with my colleagues.
When I raised this at the Committee on Procedure and Privileges a subcommittee was set up and it drafted guidelines for the conduct of meetings with regard to that subject. They have already been circulated to the various groups in the Dáil but I will ask the staff to ensure that a copy of the document is circulated to Members of the committee as soon as possible.
What procedure must the committee adopt in order to arrange for outside groups to come before it and make a presentation? You said that a request must be made by a member of the committee and there must be public notice of that fact. Will the Chairman give details of the procedures with which a member must comply because I request that the procedure be put in place?
If it had been notified to me in time the procedure could have been put in place. However, no such request was made by any member of the committee. As Committee Stage of the Bill has commenced it is not possible to allow for oral submissions. I will ensure that the written submissions I received this morning from interested parties are circulated.
We have been placed in an invidious position. The Bill before the Committee was only circulated to Members on Monday and as there was no meeting of the committee before today, it would not have been possible to make the request.
I take the Deputy's point. However, several weeks ago I circulated to Members our schedule of Bills and the proposed dates on which they would be discussed. That was adopted by the committee. At my direction, adequate notice of the Bills that would come before the committee was given by the Clerk. This Bill was on the list. If at that stage Members felt interested groups wished to make submissions I would have brought it before the committee as it would have to make a decision on the question of advertising which would require the expenditure of finance, consultation and, perhaps, legal advice. That was not done and we have now commenced Committee Stage of the Bill. I am not in a position to go back on that procedure.
I was at the meeting with the other two Deputies at which the Chairman was requested to meet a deputation. We did that as soon as Second Stage concluded. The Chairman told us yesterday what he told the committee today. I am Chairman of the Select Committee on Finance and General Affairs and I could not attend the meeting this morning because I was chairing one of its meetings. The clerk of my committee has told me that it is a matter for the committee to decide and there is no need for public advertising. A precedent should not be set as a result of your ruling without it being checked. It is not the practice of my committee.
I realise the Deputy is Chairman of another committee but what happens in his committee is his business and that of its members. What happens in this committee is my responsibility. My ruling will stand. If the Deputy disagrees with that there is a procedure to deal with it, as he is aware. I am proceeding with the agenda. Amendment No. 1.
On a point of order, I am concerned that what the Chairman cited both yesterday and today is not what has been advised to me in my capacity as either a Deputy or chairman of a committee. When I checked I was told that what you are saying is not the case. It is your ruling and not the ruling of the House to exclude this.
My ruling was put before the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and was unanimously upheld.
That is not the case. I challenge the Chairman to produce documentation to that effect.
The Deputy may do so in accordance with the procedure available to him.
I intend to do so.
The Deputy should know the procedure well enough.
I support those who say that local residents and community groups should have an opportunity to put their views to the committee by whatever procedure is available. Indeed, the question of consultation is at the heart of my party's amendments.
Amendment No. 1 in the name of Deputy Brennan.