This section deals with the unlawful use of the light railway by other vehicles. When the light railway is going around the city centre, for example, on Dawson Street or College Green, will it be permissible for cars to use the same track or space as the light rail? Is it a dedicated use for the light rail or can cars weave in and out? If they can, what are the implications?
SECTION 20.
Question proposed: "That section 20 stand part of the Bill".
There will be substantial segregation for the majority of the route. In some very limited areas there will be mixed user areas where cars will be allowed but they will be more the exception than the rule.
What will be the position around Trinity College, for example?
None of the routes have been agreed so we cannot advise on which areas will be segregated and which will be mixed user.
Let us be clear on this.
On 12 December 1995 the Minister held a press conference in Dublin Castle with a video showing the light rail going around Trinity College. Will cars be able to use that space?
No decision has been taken. The Minister showed the routes which were subsequently referred to as the preferred options, but I am not preempting the outcome.
No. That is not true. The Minister announced the routes.
Where?
It is about time that somebody became truthful with the people of Dublin. It is proposed to segregate the majority of Dawson Street for Luas purposes except at intersections, Nassau Street should not be accessible to traffic and College Green should not be accessible to vehicular traffic except for deliveries, etc. There is much nonsense regarding our not knowing the routes.
We must clear this up.
The people are being deceived. They are entitled to have a good look at what is on offer. They are being told a mishmash of untruths that there is no definite route yet. Luas has decided on a definite route and it has made a decision to keep vehicles off places such as Nassau Street between Dawson Street and Trinity College.
I have said that there will be substantial segregation. Local residents and interests should assume that where there is to be light rail it will be segregated.
Even in the city centre?
Yes, even in the city centre. There will be some areas which will mixed user but these will be the exception.
The Minister of State is talking about taking away lines of traffic.
That is correct.
We are getting into an argument.
This is important.
It must be clarified.
The Minister of State should come clean and confirm that it is being proposed that one will not be able to drive from St. Stephen's Green to O'Connell Street except via Pearse Street or down South Great Georges Street.
That is a reasonable assumption. Wherever the light rail goes there will be substantial segregation. The exception will be the mixed areas, for example at certain junctions.
Can we pin this down because it is very important for the people of Dublin to understand what is happening here? The Minister of State advises that it will be substantially segregated, meaning that cars will be unable to use the track line. This means that one lane of traffic in a substantial area of the city centre will be taken away.
Has the Minister of State or CIE studied the traffic implications if a lane of traffic is taken away from the greater city centre area? Can she show us the study. This is news. Despite our best efforts with the Minister in the Dáil we were never able to ascertain how it would look on the ground. The Minister of State is now telling us that, by and large, with some small exceptions, it will have——
Substantially, yes.
——its own segregated, dedicated track which will be taken from the existing roads. What are the implications for traffic and have any studies been undertaken in this regard?
Yes. The DTI undertook a study.
The DTI did not clarify this matter. Had it done so we would know the answer.
They did not pin down the specifics but it was considered in the recommendations it made to Government.
I do not like this method of questioning. You asked a question, Deputy. Please allow the Minister of State to reply. If you are not satisfied with the answer I will allow you to ask another question. You are asking three questions before the Minister of State has had a chance to answer the first.
I have answered the Deputy's question. Perhaps he wishes to ask a supplementary question.
The DTI did not study the implications of taking away two lines of traffic from the city centre. We first learnt about this today at this meeting. The Minister of State has told us that the lanes will be taken away. Hiterto we have not had a straight answer to this I am pleased she has now provided one. The impression was that a decision had not been made. The Minister of State said it has been decided. Has a study being carried out regarding what alternative traffic arrangements will be made if two lanes of traffic are removed from city centre streets?
At strategic level, work was carried out by the DTI on this point. At present, CIE is working on this. The issue of dedicated or substantially segregated lines is not new. There was an assumption that large areas would be dedicated or segregated light rail lines. Was there an assumption at any stage that they would all be mixed lines in the city centre?
I cannot point to any clear answers we received from the Minister or the Minister of State despite several questions regarding whether the lines in the city centre could or could not be used by cars. The Minister of State said today they cannot be used——
Substantially not.
——substantially by cars. What are the traffic implications of that?
The point has been made.
It will be horrific. It reopens the argument for an underground system.
Question put and agreed to.
Section 21 agreed to.