Select Committee on Enterprise and Economic Strategy debate -
Tuesday, 25 Jun 1996

SECTION 6.

Question proposed: "That section 6 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. M. McDowell

I understand that section 6 requires, prior to the application being made to the Minister, that the public be notified of the proposals. It requires that a copy of the plan and the environmental impact statement accompanying the application be made available. There is a further requirement that a notice should be published in newspapers indicating that the application has been made. Section 6 also requires that a copy should be served on the local authority to whose functional area the application applies and also on people whose land will be affected.

Section 6(2) states that members of the public may inspect a copy of a draft light railway order, plan or book of reference free of charge during the time specified in subsection (1)(b)(ii) and may purchase copies on payment of a fee to the board. Will the Minister of State provide a satisfactory assurance that people will not have to travel to the North Wall or elsewhere to discover what is being planned? The information in question should be much more widely distributed for the benefit of citizens and communities. It is not fair that people should be obliged to travel to the LUAS office on the North Wall to discover what is happening.

Mr. Costello

It should be in the Law Library.

Mr. M. McDowell

The Deputy is suggesting that the Four Courts is a more central location. Since he will have access to a station under the Bill——

Mr. Costello

It would also be close to Arran Quay Terrace.

Mr. M. McDowell

Will the Minister of State outline how public information relating to the plan will be issued?

Mrs. Doyle

I refer the Deputy to section 6(1)(a) under which the board is required to deposit or keep deposited a draft order at such place or places which are easily accessible to the public.

Mr. M. McDowell

Where is it planned to keep such draft orders?

Mrs. Doyle

In libraries and various other places.

Mr. M. McDowell

That will be required within the next number of months.

Mrs. Doyle

Yes, it will be required shortly.

Mr. M. McDowell

The Minister of State has obviously made plans. May we hear them?

Mrs. Doyle

They will be deposited at libraries and all local authority offices in each locality. I am assured that these are easily accessible to the public.

Mr. M. McDowell

Would a post office be a reasonable site?

Mrs. Doyle

Quite possibly. I will forward the Deputy's suggestion and obtain a reply for him.

Chairman

In view of importance of this Bill and the many questions asked in the public interest during last week's session, staff kindly agreed to complete the transcript of the proceedings which is now available in bound form. I thank the Clerk to the Committee and the staff of the Houses who spent much time preparing the transcript, which I will arrange to have circulated. If required, I am sure that copies can be made available to members of the public.

Mr. S. Brennan

Section 6 states that the information to which the Minister of State referred must be made publicly available within 14 days of the making of the application. For what length of time will that information be available in libraries and post offices? Will it be for the duration of the public inquiry?

Mrs. Doyle

It will be available during the public inquiry. The information must be available to the public for as long as is needed.

Mr. S. Brennan

Will it be updated with new submissions, etc.?

Mrs. Doyle

I do not believe so, it will be copy of the order under debate.

Mr. S. Brennan

The original application?

Mrs. Doyle

Yes, as I understand it.

Mr. M. McDowell

Subsection (3) states:

A person may, not later than 2 weeks after the end of the period specified in subsection (2), make submissions in writing to the Minister in relation to the proposed light railway order. . ..

What period is specified in subsection (2)?

Mrs. Doyle

A good question.

Chairman

Could we move on to deal with——

Mr. M. McDowell

No, the Minister of State has not replied.

Chairman

I am not suggesting that we leave the Deputy's question unanswered.

Mrs. Doyle

The period specified in section 6(1)(b)(ii) is not less than one month. Is Sherlock Holmes satisfied?

Mr. M. McDowell

There is a trail of evidence, but one would need a PhD in law to discover what is the specified period.

Mr. Costello

Deputy McDowell made the point that the public may inspect or purchase a copy of the draft application. Will the Minister of State agree to make copies available to those organisations along the proposed light rail route who communicated their interest in this matter to the Minster of State's office?

Mrs. Doyle

I am advised that this is not the intention. It will be a cumbersome document in itself but it will be available, at the cost of photocopying it, to any group which wants it.

Mr. Costello

They can purchase it if they want to do so.

Mr. S. Brennan

This is a £200 million scheme.

Mr. Costello

It is not unreasonable that people along the affected routes should have access to a copy free of charge.

Mrs. Doyle

I will make that point to the Minister. It will not be available to everyone, even if one lives on the route. However, the Deputy makes a reasonable point about those groups with specific problems. I cannot give any guarantees as I do not have the authority but I will make that specific point to the Minister. We will not be in the business of producing hundreds of thousands of copies of the report and disseminating indefinitely.

Mr. Costello

It should be made available to representative business and residential groups along the route.

Chairman

The point is well noted by the Minister.

Mr. S. Brennan

To follow up Deputy Costello's point, will the Minister introduce an amendment on Report Stage to indicate the groups or types of groups which will get the document? It is a simple point.

Mrs. Doyle

Everything is simple but let us not play politics with this as it is too serious an issue. To refer to Deputy Costello's reasonable point——

Mr. S. Brennan

Chairman, it is not playing politics to ask for a few dozen copies of an important document to be given to residents' groups.

Chairman

The question has been repeated on a number of occasions.

Mr. S. Brennan

The Minister of State should bring in an amendment on Report Stage to ensure that happens.

Chairman

I understood the Minister of State to say that she would take on board the points which have been made. We are now rehashing a question which has already been asked.

Mrs. Doyle

All those who will be materially affected will effectively get their own copy under section 6(1)(d), which states that the Board shall:

serve a copy of the notice referred to in paragraph (b) together with relevant extracts from the documents referred to in paragraph (a) on every (if any) occupier and every (if any) owner of land referred to in the draft order.

Anyone who is materially affected will be able to get it.

Mr. M. McDowell

If it is coming through your living room?

Mrs. Doyle

If one is materially affected. There is a provision for those who rightly need access to the relevant document to get it at no cost or charge. I am not sure how far we can go beyond that, for instance, to provide that anyone who wants it or feels he or she may be affected can have the document for the asking but I will check.

Chairman

I am sure there will be a big demand from Members, particularly Dublin based Deputies and that the Minister will assist them in getting as many copies as possible for distribution.

Mrs. Doyle

I will probably facilitate them. I can hear how you intend to subvert the will of the Minister, Chairman.

Chairman

Is section 6 agreed?

Mr. S. Brennan

If the Minister can assure me she will introduce an amendment to do what Deputy Costello wants, I will agree to section 6, otherwise I will not. I cannot accept the niggardly approach to the provision of a few dozen copies to interested groups along the route. If the Minister cannot insert this simple sentence on Report Stage, all we are hearing is platitudes.

Mrs. Doyle

I am satisfied that interested groups are catered for under section 6(1)(d).

Mr. S. Brennan

They are not.

Mrs. Doyle

I have no difficulty with supplying a few dozen copies but I am not in a position to put into legislation who will and who will not get a free copy.

Mr. S. Brennan

We are talking about resident's associations.

Mrs. Doyle

Anyone affected, including the residents' associations concerned, will get a copy under section 6(1)(d).

Chairman

The questioning has gone past the reasonable stage.

Mr. S. Brennan

They will not if their house is not affected.

Mr. M. McDowell

I do not want to delay or to be pernickety. Section 6 (3) allows people to make submissions to the Minister before the inquiry is held. Will the Minister of State explain what the Minister is supposed to do with these submissions? Will he give them to the inspector?

Mrs. Doyle

The Minister will be obliged to take any submissions into account.

Mr. M. McDowell

In deciding what?

Mrs. Doyle

Before he signs the light rail order or puts into——

Mr. M. McDowell

Do these have equal status with the inspector's report?

Mrs. Doyle

Yes.

Mr. S. Brennan

The inspector's report comes later.

Mrs. Doyle

They must be considered in as much detail and given as much consideration, so in that sense they are important.

Mr. M. McDowell

Where is the requirement or the provision that the Minister is supposed to have regard to these submissions?

Mrs. Doyle

Section 9 (1) states:

. . . the Minister shall, before deciding whether to grant the order to which the application relates, consider the following:

. . .

(d) any submission duly made to him or her under section 6(3).

He must consider it.

Mr. M. McDowell

Such submissions therefore have equal status with the commissioner's report.

Mrs. Doyle

Yes, they must be considered equally.

Mr. M. McDowell

If someone makes a submission based on the public plan, is the Minister obliged to give that to the inspector or is the inspector obliged to take that into account in coming to a view on the issue or does it sit on the Minister's desk until the inspector has finished his job?

Mrs. Doyle

I hesitate to respond on the basis of the Deputy's phrase "obliged to".

Mr. M. McDowell

That is what worries me.

Mrs. Doyle

In practice it will happen that any such submissions will be given by the Minister to the inspector but I am not sure I would be right in saying he is obliged to give them. It will happen that all such submissions will be given.

Question put and declared carried.