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Select Committee on Finance and General Affairs debate -
Thursday, 5 May 1994

SECTION 26

I move amendment No. 72:

In page 37, line 14, after "goods" to insert "whether directly or by subcontract".

This amendment proposes a very simple change. It was suggested to me by some one who is involved that this would be a fair way of tweaking this situation. This amendment has to do with the Irish Permanent Building Society. They set up dummy companies to give themselves royalty income from patented profits. The purpose of this amendment is to close this loophole. Is that correct?

It was suggested to me that some bona fide companies involved in the manufacturing industry in relation to patents might be hit if the subcontract clause is put in. The Minister might consider that.

It is intended that royalties paid in respect of qualifying patents researched and developed in Ireland would be exempt where the patent is in respect of manufacturing activity. As I understand it, the section, as drafted, does not require that the payer of the royalty be the person doing the manufacturing work. So long as the royalties are attributable to manufacturing activity, whether done by the payer or subcontracted, the royalty will qualify. I can assure Deputy Yates that the section as drafted, meets his concerns.

As it is now 1.30 p.m. I am required to put the following question in accordance with an Order of the Dáil of 28 April 1994:

"That the amendments set down by the Minister for Finance to Chapters 2, 3 and 4 of Part 1 of the Bill and not disposed of are hereby made to the Bill and that in respect of each of the sections undisposed of in the said chapters, that the section or, as appropriate, the section as amended is hereby agreed to."

On section 28 I am considering the possibility of a Report Stage amendment in connection with amendment No. 74 from Deputy Yates. I also wish to say to the committee that I am looking at the possibility of putting down a Report Stage amendment in relation to tax allowances for hotels in designated areas. I am also looking at the possibility of putting down a Report Stage amendment in relation to the Revenue Commissioners giving details of section 23 landlords to local authorities for the purpose of compliance with housing regulations.

I very much welcome what the Minister has said. In relation to balloon leases, I am all for killing them; but there may be small equipment under £50,000. In relation to hotels, this is one of the areas where urban renewal would benefit if industrial buildings included hotels.

Question put.
The Select Committee divided: Tá, 17; Nil, 9.

Ahern, Bertie.

Ahern, Michael.

Ahern, Noel.

Broughan, Tommy.

Connolly, Ger.

Costello, Joe.

Doherty, Seán.

Ellis, John.

Kenny, Seán.

Martin, Micheál.

Nolan, M. J.

O'Cuív, Éamon.

O'Keeffe, Ned.

Penrose, William.

Smith, Brendan.

Upton, Pat.

Walsh, Eamon.

Níl

Bruton, Richard.

Connaughton, Paul.

Currie, Austin.

Durkan, Bernard J.

Finucane, Michael.

McDowell, Michael.

Nealon, Ted.

Rabbitte, Pat.

Yates, Ivan.

Question declared carried.
Sitting suspended at 1.44 p.m. and resumed at 3 p.m.
NEW SECTION.

Amendments Nos. 94, 95 and 97 are related and may be discussed together by agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed.

By Order of the Dáil we have to deal with all sections up to section 60 by 3.30 p.m. We are just starting section 43, which covers amendments 94 to 139, inclusive. I ask that we be allowed to discuss these together so that people can discuss whichever amendments they want.

That is fine if it is agreeable to other Members. If we do that, at 3.20 p.m. we will have to either take the various sections and amendments or put the composite question. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I move amendment No. 94:

In page 78, before section 43, but in Chapter V, to insert the following new section:

"43.—Notwithstanding anything in the Corporation Tax Act, 1976, from the 1st June, 1994 there shall be three rates of Corporation Tax. The standard rate shall be 40 per cent. and there shall be two reduced rates of 24 per cent. and 10 per cent.".

We are now discussing tax on corporation profits. Although section 43 does not mention mushroom cultivation, it has the effect of changing companies in that industry from the 10 per cent rate of corporation tax to the 40 per cent rate. The Minister has told representatives of that industry that he is obliged by EU rules to change the tax position.

This may be the first of many occasions when rival countries object to Irish companies penetrating their market, as mushroom growers have successfully done. Although we have major transport cost impediments in Ireland we still must conform to EU regulations. The standard rate of corporation profits tax in Britain is not 40 per cent but 33 per cent. There is a reduced rate for smaller companies and I have also put an amendment down on that subject.

The standard rate for corporation tax varies from country to country. The only way to solve this problem is to accept amendment No. 94, which conforms with EU rules by introducing three tiers of corporation tax, with rates of 10 per cent, 24 per cent and 40 per cent. It would be up to policy makers in Government to decide which types of service businesses would pay the new standard rate of 24 per cent. That figure is 1 per cent below the UK standard rate.

The Minister might decide to put only the mushroom industry at the 24 per cent rate. That would allow him to conform with EU regulations and stop the likely devastation of this industry. In my constituency and in Border counties, the success story of mushroom cultivation has been quite extraordinary. They have developed a new product from nothing and it has proved an invaluable alternative farm enterprise for many satellite mushroom growers, as well as those involved in compost production, distribution, jobs in Rosslare harbour and other spin-off employment. It seems the Minister is throwing these people to the wolves, although he has made a concession as regards the date on which this will come into operation.

We have a task force for the west of Ireland which is seeking support for that area. It would be fairer to retain the existing benefits of a lower corporation profits tax rate for the mushroom industry. It is not only the mushroom industry which will be affected because many international trade services are not taxed at the lower rate of 10 per cent.

In relation to amendment No. 95, we spoke about the report of the Task Force on Small Business this morning. It is vital that small companies with profits of less than £80,000 should have capital to reinvest in the company, to attract new investors, or to pay dividends, rather than absorbing it all in tax. This new middle rate of 24 per cent should be introduced for small companies with profits of less than £80,000 per annum. Perhaps the Minister could tell me the cost of that change.

Amendment No. 97 is related to amendment No. 94. In relation to amendment No. 96, I have received representations from co-operatives in the west, particularly those supported by Údarás na Gaeltachta. They paid corporation tax at zero rate, but they must now pay at the 40 per cent rate and they are sore about this. Some of these cooperatives, which are on the islands off the west coast, have minimum profits which they would reinvest. Amendment No. 96 asks for a special concession for such businesses.

The Minister has tabled amendments which could be discussed in greater detail. Amendment No. 129 seeks to introduce a tiered structure for capital gains tax to the standard rate of tax. I spoke this morning about someone who receives a redundancy lump sum, or wins the lottery, or receives money through inheritance. There is no incentive to invest in job creating businesses because if the money which they make is reinvested and the value of the shares improves, they must pay the 40 per cent capital gains tax. Our standard rate of income tax is 27p in the pound. Why should we not tax amounts up to £10,000 at 27p in the pound?

I guarantee the Deputy that if he wins the lottery I will not ask him to pay tax.

I am concerned about what the Minister does with the money after he has won the lottery. Amendment No. 130 is a valid one. People who make long term gains, especially through investing in small businesses, would get a 20 per cent rate of capital gains tax.

The Minister has been lobbied by the Minister for Tourism and Trade, Deputy McCreevy, about Naas racecourse. The officials are going to sell land and they want to invest the money in the track. It is a non-profit making venture. Amendment No. 132 sets to give the "rollover relief" to bona fide racecourses which sell land and reinvest it in an industry we are trying to support. There are 20,000 people employed in the racing industry.

I draw the Minister's attention to amendment No. 135, about which I received professional advice. I am told there is a new system in section 60 whereby people who invested money from the sale of their shares are now liable for capital gains tax. How would the Minister value the shares from the date they were bought? I am talking about co-operatives. If someone bought shares in Avonmore Foods plc some years ago and sold them on a subsequent date, they are now liable to pay tax under section 60. It would simplify the operation of section 60 for accountancy professions if the Minister accepted my amendment, which means that the market value of the company would be calculated by multiplying the cost of the acquisition of one share by the total number of shares in the company. Perhaps the Minister could clarify the position in this regard.

The yield from corporation profits tax has increased from less than £300 million to over £900 million. Corporation profits tax has been the big money spinner for this Government in recent years. We must consider the development of micro sectors on the basis of a three-tier rate of corporation profits tax. That would be a radical reform which would allow political input, beyond Forfás and the State agencies, in recognising the growth potential of certain sectors. If the European Commission said that a certain commodity or sector must be taxed at the standard rate, this does not mean it must change to 40 per cent, which is a quadrupling of the rate they may be on at present. That argument applies to cooperatives as well as to the mushroom industry. This would give policy makers more flexibility in their approach.

The second group of amendments seek to implement the report of the Task Force on Small Business, which is being debated in the Dáil today. Specific small incentives, in relation to capital gains tax and corporation profits tax, would be introduced to make it more attractive for potential entrepreneurs to create jobs.

I am not sure about my position in relation to this amendment, but I am sure Deputy Yates' argument that the corporate sector has been a big money spinner in the last few years suits the Minister. I understand why the Minister wishes to reaffirm that view. However, that takes the figures out of context. Until a few years ago the £300 million contribution in corporation profits tax, as Deputy Yates said, was almost insignificant in the context of the total tax yield. The fact that the corporate sector contributed £300 million in tax is neither here nor there. On Second Stage I gave the Minister credit for the changes he introduced during the last few years which has pushed that figure over £900 million. However, it must not be construed as a disproportionate contribution by the corporate sector because that is not the case.

We focused on this last year and I recall the Minister saying that none of the largest companies in this country, which benefit from the 10 per cent tax regime, is paying 10 per cent. The Minister is on the record as having said so. I am advised, and I do not know if the Minister wishes to comment, that, on average, those companies covered by the 10 per cent tax regime pay 3 per cent. I would like the Minister to address this point. Although there has been a large increase in contributions from the corporate sector, we must also look at the increase in contributions from the PAYE sector for the same period. This shows what big time tax contribution means. I will not labour that point because we dealt with it earlier. Having said that, I am not sure where I stand on Deputy Yates's amendment because there may be merit in a three part structure to the corporation tax regime, but perhaps not as he sets it out. The notion may be worthy of consideration.

Why was the mushroom industry selected? It seems to be the reverse of the banana ripening case a few years ago where every activity in the economy benefited from the 10 per cent tax regime. That was the position until the famous banana case went to the High Court which decided that banana ripening was not a manufacturing process. As a result the situation was tightened up, prior to that it was ludicrous.

I also had representations from the mushroom industry and I am not sure where I stand. It is an area of growing employment and it has created an alternative industry for farmers in the context of decisions imposed by Brussels. Perhaps this indigenous industry should be assisted. I would like to hear the Minister's rationale before I commit myself.

As regards the three tier tax structure, in amendment No. 99 I propose an alternative minimum tax. This is borrowed from the American tax code where there is an alternative minimum effective rate of tax of 20 per cent.

The amendment concerned has been ruled out of order.

This imposes ludicrous restrictions on us because we are criticised when we say we should spend money in a particular area, but when we say from where we intend to raise it, we cannot comment on it. I will not speak on my amendment, I accept the Chairman's ruling.

In the context of Deputy Yates's proposal for a three tier structure for corporation tax, I proposed almost the same thing in my amendment, except that it would be a minimum effective rate of 20 per cent. If a corporation produced profits, there would be an effective minimum tax rate of 20 per cent. If one consider the present 40 per cent rate, the situation is the same. Any company in receipt of decent tax advice, notwithstanding the vigilance of the Revenue Commissioners, will not expose all its profits to 40 per cent tax. That is how it operates. It may be more productive, in terms of stimulating enterprise and growth and the tax yield, if the effective alternative rate was 20 per cent.

I have been approached by the Antique Dealers' Association in relation to amendment No. 133. If someone has a valuable painting or an antique to sell, a new fashion is developing whereby such items are displayed in the Shelbourne Hotel, but their sale is conducted outside the State. The reason is that if an antique dealer sells an item for more than £2,000 he must take names and particulars and send them to Dublin Castle to the Revenue Commissioners. Needless to say potential buyers are less than charmed to have their names, addresses and details disclosed, especially if they pay cash for these items. This is having a net effect because there is no declaration link between the Revenue Commissioners and such sales in Northern Ireland or abroad. This is devastating the Irish antique business. The requirement to report an antique which has been sold to the Revenue Commissions has been set for many years at £2,000 but one considers inflation, that sum should have increased to £12,000. Will the Minister favourably consider a Report Stage amendment adjusting the figure of £5,000 to the figure mentioned? The net effect is that sales which are not driven out of the country, will be driven into the black economy. Antique dealers are in an impossible position and must act as policemen because someone who gives the name Patrick Rabbitte may well be Patrick Murphy or Patrick Ahern. I ask the Minister to raise the threshold.

Will the Minister give an up to date figure on the number of companies with no tax liability? Last year the figure was 35,500, while 16,500 companies did not have tax liabilities. I am not talking about tax evasion, etc. but about compliant companies which genuinely have no tax liability.

Deputy Yates asked about the mushroom industry. One could not have an item at a lower rate because the Commission would argue it was State aid and, therefore, it would have to apply across the board. One could not introduce a rate of 24 per cent for the mushroom industry or any another area because it would be considered a distortion.

Would it be similar to the UK rate?

The UK rate is 33 per cent.

Deputy Rabbitte asked about the number of companies paying corporation tax. Although these figure may be out of date, 60,000 companies pay corporation tax. Some 42,693 companies make returns, while 21,106 pay tax. When one considers the average in corporation tax, one can see how these figures move. Companies which pay corporation tax at the rate of 10 per cent yield 58 per cent, while those which pay tax at the rate of 40 per cent yield 42 per cent.

Could the Minister repeat that?

This is the percentage of corporation tax yield attributable to the two rates. Some 58 per cent of corporation tax comes from companies paying at the rate of 10 per cent, while 42 per cent comes from companies paying at the full rate of 42 per cent. The breakdown is based on actual data for companies with accounting dates falling between the year ending 31 March 1992.

So companies subject to the 10 per cent regime are contributing 58 per cent of the total tax from the corporate sector?

Yes. On the 10 per cent companies, in regard to the effective raise on adjusted profits, we are talking about their taxable income here, not their capital allowances or their losses or writeoffs. The taxable income before writeoffs or capital allowances for the 10 per cent companies would be 9.9 per cent; for 40 per cent companies it is 23.9 per cent. Deputy Yates asked about the reduced rate of capital gains tax which could depend on the length of time assets were held. A number of these were part of the capital gains tax avoidance schemes used in the early 1990's. The position was corrected a few years back when a single rate of capital gains was introduced which did not depend on the length of time the assets were held. In any event, indexation is available in respect of chargeable gains which ensures that any real gains are taxed.

On the three rate structure, excessively complicated rate structures are not consistent with good tax administration. They often only make work for tax planners who would devote their time to ensuring that their clients' profits come within the lower rates and this opens the gates for tax bands avoidance. I am trying to go in the other direction, with some difficulty.

Deputy Yates made two main points. In amendment No. 97 he proposes to introduce a reduced rate of corporation tax, either 27 per cent or 24 per cent, to be applied to a company whose profits do not exceed £80,000 where those profits would otherwise be taxable at 40 per cent. It additionally proposes that the reduced rate should apply where profits do not exceed £80,000. That compares with a figure of £35,000 in 1989. It is a very significant increase. If the amendment were to be accepted and the rate reduced to 27 per cent, the full year cost would be £26 million. If the 24 per cent rate were adopted the cost of the measure would amount to £32 million. It has not been possible to cost Deputy Yates' proposal to apply a reduced rate to the first £80,000 profits of all companies but Members can take it that the figure would be higher again.

I wish to remind the Committee of the position in regard to mushrooms. We are proposing a number of amendments which seek to alter the position and to remove the cultivation of mushrooms in the State from the scope of the 10 per cent rate. Deputies will be aware that this increase was imposed on us from the European Commission in Brussels. The European Commission, as part of the ongoing review of aid schemes under Article 93.1 of the Treaty, opened an investigation into the application of the 10 per cent rate of corporation tax to mushroom cultivation over three years ago at the beginning of 1991. The Commission concluded its investigations earlier this year. They were protracted and, needless to say, the Departments of Agriculture and Finance were involved in them throughout.

The Commission found the application of the 10 per cent rate to mushroom cultivation to be incompatible with the Common Market and as a consequence has called upon the Irish Government to remove mushroom cultivation from the 10 per cent scheme. The formal procedure in this matter has already commenced under Article 93.2 of the Treaty. I am hopeful that the measures we have taken in the Bill will satisfy the Commission's requirements and result in no furtherance by them of the procedure which they commenced. I wish to make it clear that as a member state of the European Union we are obliged to comply with the Commission's decision and the Government has no choice but to make the necessary changes in the Finance Bill. We have been through the procedure, all of the appeals and arguments and at this stage the Government either makes the decision or the procedure continues, and we will be forced to do so very shortly. I was asked previously how long this would take. At this stage it would only take a matter of months, so it is not a question of being able to delay it for an undue length of time.

As I have said before at Question Time, the Government is conscious of the difficulties which a sudden change in tax treatment would have on the mushroom sector. The concerns of the industry in this regard were made clear to me at a number of meetings which my officials and I have had with representatives of the sector over the last number of months. The Government couched the Finance legislation in such a way as to provide a considerable degree of breathing space for those affected to adjust to the new system, to adjust to the 40 per cent from the 10 per cent regime. Section 43, as drafted, applies the higher 40 per cent of tax to income earned in accounting periods beginning or after 1 June 1994. Effectively, this allows companies the flexibility to commence an accounting period on 31 May 1994 so that the higher rate of tax will not apply in practice until the accounting period beginning 31 May 1995. Because corporation tax is not paid until six months after the end of an accounting period, these arrangements will mean that a major mushroom company or an incorporated grower will not have to pay the tax due at the higher rate until November of 1996, which is two and a half years away.

These arrangements will clearly be of considerable benefit to those affected. I believe this arrangement would be acceptable to the European Commission. The Commission still has some difficulties but this will be an acceptable position. The major mushroom companies will also be sheltered from the worst effects of this change by the fact that production of compost will be eligible for the 10 per cent rate of corporation tax in its own right as a manufactured product. We are all aware that the mushrooms grow in compost. The product they are using, the raw material is still payable at 10 per cent and only the mushroom growing in the compost is at the 40 per cent and that is not until November 1996.

While no sector of the economy likes to be faced with a higher rate, the impact on the mushroom industry should not be exaggerated. To put this in perspective, it is estimated that some 13 per cent of mushroom producers are incorporated and this means that the vast bulk of mushroom producers will not be directly effected by the change in corporation tax treatment at all as they are taxed under income tax rather than corporation tax. While the Government regrets that it has become necessary on foot of our European Union obligations to remove mushroom cultivation from the scope of the 10 per cent scheme, I have met many of the people in the industry and I commend them for their initiative and innovations over the years in building up what was a very small industry. I am sure that the fact that they were cornering a large segment of the market was focused on. Needless to say, that is something we are glad they were able to do. Hopefully, the arrangements we have put in place will ease the transition to the high rate of tax. That should assist the industry in dealing with the challenge which the tax change represents.

I have been very clear today about the wording of the section in the Bill. I explained on Second Stage why it was written the way it was, but since there are amendments down asking me to clear it up I have no choice but to spell it out. That creates its own problems, but we have explained to the world at large what it means. It assists the industry greatly. Some of those who do not have the benefit of tax practitioners and accountants would perhaps have had some difficulty in deciphering exactly what is meant. This explains it clearly for them and will hopefully deal with the matter. That covers the mushroom elements of amendments Nos. 129 and 130.

What about Nos. 132 and 133?

Amendment No. 132 appears to relate to the non availability of rollover relief on sales of development land. There are special rules governing the capital gains tax treatment of development land and indexation relief is restricted to the current-use value of the land. In addition, rollover relief, which would normally be available where the proceeds from the sale of business assets are reinvested in acquiring new business assets, is denied in the case of such land. I know this will create great hardship to my ministerial colleague, Deputy McCreevy, and to Deputy Yates. However, I am sure they will appreciate that development land in one place is development land in another.

Deputy Yates is now proposing that rollover relief should be available on the sale of development land where the sale proceeds are devoted towards the cost of improving amenities. It is not possible to accept so selective an amendment. It would not be equitable to introduce a relief confined to one sector of the economy when I turn it down for others.

What about in the context of the antique dealers — amendment No. 133?

I have already done something for antique dealers.

A Deputy

Was that in the Casual Trading Bill?

As it is now 3.30 p.m. I am required to put the following question in accordance with an Order of the Dáil of 28 April:

"That the amendments set down by the Minister for Finance to Chapters V and VI of Part I of the Bill and not disposed of are hereby made to the Bill; and in respect of each of the sections undisposed of in the said Chapters, that the section or, as appropriate, the section as amended, is hereby agreed to."

Question put and declared carried.

I will send Deputy Yates a note on the last item. We have increased it from £2,000 to £5,000.

Section 61 agreed to.
NEW SECTION.

Amendment No. 244 is an alternative to amendment No. 140 and amendment No. 245 is related. All may be taken together by agreement.

Amendment No. 140 states:

In page 98, before section 62, to insert the following new section:

"62.—The provisions of Section 92 of the Finance Act, 1989 and regulations made thereunder shall apply to disabled persons who are without the use of one arm or one hand.".

My amendment No. 244 is similar. These amendments deal with disabled drivers and their special car tax relief arrangement. The Department of Finance think that any possible relaxation of this will open the flood gates and everybody will claim disabled driver status. Over the years successive Ministers have been excessively tight in their approach to this matter.

There has been a review over the past year and I welcome the Minister's consultations with Opposition spokespersons on this issue. While I understand the review is incomplete in that the finalisation of the process with the Irish Wheelchair Association and the Disabled Drivers Association is not yet finished, someone without an arm or leg is, to all intents and purposes, disabled. That is a fact. The purpose of the amendments is to extend the concession to that category of disabled persons who are without one hand or one arm. It is a reasonable request.

I have also had complaints about the rule that the adaptation costs of a vehicle must be 20 per cent of the pre tax value of the car. It should be reduced to 10 per cent. These are two specific points which are not included in the general review and do not seem to be resolved. The Minister should consider them as reasonable and acceptable amendments.

The tax relief currently available to disabled persons in respect of motor vehicles is intended as an aid to the mobility of persons with serious mobility problems. The amendment would extend considerably the scope of the relief available. While there can be no argument that persons without a hand or an arm are disabled, it is by no means clear that this disability results in a serious mobility problem. The committee will agree that any disablement creates difficulties, but there has to be some threshold on a generous relief.

I acknowledge Deputy Yates' point regarding the consultations. The operation of the reliefs under the disabled drivers scheme has been the subject of a thorough review conducted in accordance with an undertaking given by me in the course of last year's Finance Bill. It has involved consultations with the Department of Health, the Department of the Environment and the Department of Justice, the directors of community care in the regional health boards, the Disabled Drivers Medical Board of Appeal and the Revenue Commissioners. We have had representations from a number of TDs and Senators on behalf of a wide variety of groups and individuals, and from disabled persons themselves. All of these have been taken into account. I want to acknowledge not only the input of the Opposition spokespersons. but the many Deputies who have been involved in the process on behalf of various regional and constituency groups.

The initial part of the review was completed last November and copies have been distributed to the Opposition spokespersons. Subsequently, the Irish Wheelchair Association and the Disabled Drivers Association were consulted and their comments are being evaluated at present and I hope to be in a position to make the necessary amending regulations before too long. I will try to have them completed by the summer break.

The position of one-handed and onearmed amputees was specifically considered in the review. In line with the decision taken when the current scheme was drawn up to exclude such persons from its scope, the review, while recognising such persons are obviously disabled, considered that the extent of their disability in comparison, for example, with amputees of both hands, did not represent serious mobility problems. This was the conclusion of the review. For example, they would have no difficulty in walking any reasonable distance nor would they have, I think it is fair to say, any major problems using public transport. While I would like to be able to include all disabled persons in the scheme irrespective of the nature or extent of their disability, it is just not possible on the basis of the financial cost of the relief. To do so would extend the scheme to a degree that would consequently undermine its viability. This is a matter where one tries to push the constraints to the limit.

On a more positive note, the review recommends an additional medical category — this was also a source of much representation and discussion by colleagues here since the last Finance Bill — enabling qualification to the scheme of persons "wholly or almost wholly without the use of both hands or arms or wholly or almost wholly without the use of one leg". This additional category will help to ensure that future cases of extreme disability, including one-handed or onearmed amputees who meet the other conditions specified, do not find themselves excluded from the scheme on a technicality, which was one of the points put forward by the various groups.

From the reaction I have had from the Opposition spokesmen and the organisations on the front line dealing with these matters daily who are catering for the disabled I have consulted, they are supportive of the general thrust of the recommendations. Implementation of these recommendations should enable even greater participation in the scheme than the 3,000 seriously disabled persons currently benefiting. The changes proposed should cost the Exchequer a total of approximately £5 million.

What is the additional number of people who will benefit? The Minister says that 3,000 are benefiting at the moment.

There are 3,000 considered by the last review as seriously disabled persons and they currently benefit.

How many extra people are included in that?

They cost the Exchequer around £5 million. The additional number will have to be added to that figure.

Will as many again be included?

That is not possible because after consulting both drivers and those on wheelchairs, the numbers applying from the original highly disabled group was not yet as clear-cut to them. Like us, they will be running their own information campaign as soon as they see how many will be covered under the recommendations. At the outset some years ago, it was promised to keep this matter under constant review. We are still in the same position. After taking in that number of people under the recommendations, we can assess the situation and then examine other suggestions.

For the benefit of the committee, Chairman, it would be useful if I outlined the main changes proposed. They are significant and worthy of note to the general public. First, there is the remission of VRT as well as the current repayment arrangement, enabling qualified claimants to purchase vehicles at VRT exclusive prices. Second, there is a more liberal approach for organisations caring for the disabled and this will facilitate a wider disabled population than what could be achieved through assisting individual claimants.

Would that involve minibuses and the like?

Yes. It would include all the minibuses owned by disabled groups.

Can they offset it at the moment?

Some of them can, but there is tight restriction on the size and cubic capacity of the vehicle involved — I am advised it is currently 4,000 cubic capacity — but that restriction will be removed. It certainly affects those minibuses used by the Sunshine Homes and other groups who not only bring people from A to B in the morning but also move them throughout the country at holiday time.

To a sunshine home. These buses are free of VRT?

Totally, and there will be no cubic capacity limit.

I came across an interesting case in an application from a branch of the Order of Malta using a minibus for this purpose. When it was not being used by the branch for this purpose, it did not qualify.

That case should be examined. If the Order of Malta are operating a minibus in a parish or an area subject to the criteria, there should be no problems. In trying to reach a guideline structure on this matter, the NRB, rather than my Department — it is not an area I like to dictate on — would specify and advise the Revenue Commissioners on the bodies that are permissible.

There are refunds under residual VRT on used cars sourced from registered motor dealers in the State enabling more affordably priced vehicles to be purchased. This is useful when groups cannot fundraise to buy a new vehicle. There is the possibility of transfer of certified vehicle adaptations from vehicle to vehicle in certain circumstances, thereby avoiding unnecessary expenditure by a qualifying claimant. I assume that if one used a vehicle to double up, as is probably the case with Deputy Rabbitte's example, it would seem that it would apply.

The streamlining of administrative procedures will cut down on the number of official contacts for points required by applicants. This review, which we have almost completed from our work last year — we had the co-operation of the Opposition Deputies on this matter — represents a substantial advance. One never likes using the phrase "a better package" for these people, but it is at least a package of assistance for those who suffer a great deal from immobility. It does show, in a co-operative way, that a caring attitude has been taken in the review. As was said on these matters at the outset, no one should close off this discussion as time moves on.

I hope a line would not be drawn under these measures. Specifically, the question of someone without an arm, whatever about without a hand, should be considered. In one case I have had some correspondence from a person from Dublin on the question of adaptation expenses. The 20 per cent adaptation rule cuts him out badly. There is no argument against saying the passenger is disabled. I ask the Minister to continue this review and to consider cases that are not included.

If it goes a step too far and abuse takes place — it has not arisen in the past — then by all means pull it back. The case for abuse has to be proven. The argument used against going too far is that it would open the floodgates. Open them a few inches and close them if it is abused.

We are moving the matter a step further. I do not see it in terms of floodgates, but I am legislating for those people so as to keep on board those who put a lot of time into this area over the last four to five years and take their views into account. I do not find it easy, but we will keep these people under consideration.

There was a review of this scheme in 1989. Those who were deemed to be eligible on medical grounds prior to 1989 would have been deemed to have been in possession of a primary medical certificate. I have sent the details of a certain case I came across on this matter two weeks ago, whereby the Revenue Commissioners indicated that they could not trace the record of a certain individual who had been on the scheme for nearly 23 years and who was now told that he would have to go before the director of community care. Those who had been on the scheme prior to 1989 and deemed to be in possession of such a certificate should be left alone and not be put under undue pressure at this stage. This person has already bought the car, assuming they would have been entitled to it. The Revenue Commissioners said they lost his file.

I hope trends like this do not develop. If we gave a commitment in 1989 to deal with people in a certain way, we should hold fast to it. By all means, any new claimants should have to go though the new regulations.

Who are "we"?

The State.

My understanding is that if one came on to the list and the new system in 1989 one is still there. If there is an individual — and I recall the case which Deputy Martin has written to me on — it will be investigated. If a person was on the scheme in 1989 then the answer is yes.

Is there any row-back on that?

Definitely not.

Amendment, No. 140 not moved.

I move amendment No. 141:

In page 98, paragraph (a), line 39, to delete "an adhesive label" and substitute "a label".

Amendment agreed to.
Question proposed: "That section 62, as amended, stand part of the Bill", put and agreed to.
Sections 63 to 65, inclusive, agreed to.
NEW SECTION.

I move amendment No. 142:

In page 101, before section 66, to insert the following new section:

66.—Section 7 of the Principal Act is hereby amended in subsection (3) by the insertion of the following paragraph after paragraph (b):

‘(c) A person shall not invite an offer to treat, offer for sale or sell by retail any packet of cigarettes at a price which is higher than the price on the basis of which that part of the excise duty imposed by section 2 of this Act which is chargeable by reference to the price at which the cigarettes are sold by retail has been charged on the cigarettes in question and any person who so invites, offers or sells shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on conviction to an excise penalty of £50 in respect of each such offence.'.".

Amendment agreed to.
Section 66 agreed to.
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