When is the likely establishment day?
SECTION 2.
Question proposed: "That section 2 stand part of the Bill."
We will look for an early signature date from the President and we will want to have it established as soon as the Bill is passed in both Houses of the Oireachtas. We will commence it the day after the President signs the Bill.
I am sure work has already commenced on the setting up of offices and other formal business.
The bureau has done a great deal of preparatory work. However, until the law is enacted it cannot do everything it will be empowered to do through the process of court prosecution and so on. We have not lost time by taking Committee Stage now. We would not have been in a position to take Committee Stage at the end of July. The need for a number of amendments became apparent during August. However, the work of the bureau has been established and the staff have been put in place.
There has been a suggestion since Second Stage was passed in the Dáil that some criminals could negative the effects of the Bill by transferring their assets. Is there any hard evidence in that regard?
Everybody will understand that a certain degree of confidentially is required and caution demands that we are circumspect in what we say. I am not directly involved in the work of the bureau so, therefore, I do not have any operational information. There have been reports of people trying to take pre-emptive action in relation to some assets. However, they will leave a trail of records. Deputy McCreevy will know in his professional capacity that once records of possession of moneys or bank accounts are clearly established, while the bank account may not currently have the sum the fact that it was in the account at a particular time is a sufficient point of departure.
The person has to explain what he did with the money and where it went.
Precisely. I have been told by the assistant secretary, Donal McNally, that approximately 26 people already work in the bureau.
I have already made the point to the Minister on Second Stage and during Question Time that staff in Departments should be asked to volunteer for this rather than be compelled. I am in favour of this legislation but it would be a more effective to ask for volunteers rather than to specify a certain principal officer or HEO.
Because of the nature of the work it was essentially and exclusively a question of asking for volunteers. There was no shortage of volunteers.
I predicted a year ago that while most people would not want to be involved in this some people would be very anxious to be involved and I was proved correct.
Yes.
While 26 people already work in the bureau I take it their activities will be greatly curtailed until the establishment day. What activities can they pursue at the moment?
Their activities are not curtailed. They are gathering intelligence information. Until the law is enacted there is a question about the safety of a legal prosecution. That is why there is an urgency about getting this Bill passed. I assure the Deputy they are not sitting around paring pencils.
Does that mean they can go out into the field?
There are many powers which social welfare officers, revenue officials and so on are capable of exercising. In essence, what is being done at the moment is establishing and gathering a substantial amount of information. They know what they are doing and why they are doing it. I do not want to go beyond that point.
Is the Minister confident the necessary financial and accountancy skills will be present when the bureau becomes fully operational?
Yes, I am. The chief executive officer of the bureau was formerly head of the fraud squad. That range of skills is there but if there is any question of a deficit in skills we will make good that deficit. We will be able to explore that in more detail when we debate section 9.
Does the Minister have any timescale for when we will see some results from this bureau, given that the preliminary work is already well under way? When the Bill is enacted the safety of prosecutions will be protected. Given that some of us have been promoting the idea of such a bureau for several years and the people with whom it is being set up to deal are well known, is there a timescale within which the Minister expects to get results from the bureau?
I hesitate to give a definitive timescale but I will try to get the information for the Deputy for Report Stage without in any way undermining the operational effectiveness of the bureau, which I know is not the Deputy's intent. I am assured that the information which is available in terms of the people to whom the bureau's attention should be devoted in the first instance is already there. Once the Bill is enacted it will be a matter for the due process of law to take its course. As the Deputy can readily understand, I cannot put a precise time table on that. However, I can assure him and all our constituents that a day will not be lost in vigorously and relentlessly pursuing people who have acquired assets through criminal behaviour.
Presumably, we can expect to see some results and some of these people dealt with before the end of the year.
There will certainly be a great deal of activity but whether there will be a definitive result will be a matter for the courts.
Question put and agreed to.