Select Committee on Finance and General Affairs debate -
Thursday, 27 Feb 1997

SECTION 24.

Mr. Sargent

I move amendment No. 45a:

In page 21, subsection (1), line 2, after "£1,500" to insert "and such community service to eradicate litter as may be decided at the discretion of the court".

In reading this section, I felt that simply imposing a fine might improve the balance sheets for the local authority but may well not result in what the Bill is trying to do, which is to prevent litter in future. Would it be possible to include the option of community service? There is so much eradicating of litter to be done that it would be appropriate for an offender to be also part of the solution and thereby learn a lesson for the future.

Chairman

That is an excellent point. The general principle of using community service orders on other offences in this area might be worth considering.

Mr. Howlin

I was attracted to this possibility when I saw it but, unfortunately, we come into conflict with the criminal justice system. In order for a community service order to be applicable there has to be a custodial sentence. The convicted person must have the option of taking a community service order rather than a custodial sentence. I am not proposing custodial sentences for litter offences, but fines. I am not minded to allow custodial sentences, so the area of community service orders does not come into play on this. It is something that we might reflect on in the broader sense but my advice from and discussions with the Department of Justice will not allow for it in this context I am afraid.

Chairman

Let us be clear. In order to have a community service order imposed, a custodial sentence must be suspended.

Mr. Howlin

Yes, or in lieu of. Under the 1983 Criminal Justice Act, where a custodial sentence is applicable, the judge may impose a community service order with the consent of the convicted person who may opt to serve the custodial sentence instead.

Chairman

It seems a pity because it would be an ideal solution. It is something we could follow up with the Minister for Justice.

Mr. Sargent

I was going to propose that. It is something the Minister for Justice may be reminded of in that this is impeding or preventing a very appropriate use of community service because a custodial sentence is not part of the legislation. I cannot read the Minister's mind but I do not think he would try to prevent community service.

Mr. Howlin

No. I would be anxious to do it if I could but I have to put in a custodial sentence and I am not minded to do so. There is no other way of doing it. We would bring odium on ourselves if people were put in jail for littering offences when there are other criminals out there.

Chairman

Can the Minister communicate to his colleague the Minister for Justice the concern of the Committee that we should find a way of doing this without having custodial sentences? I agree that we should not have custodial sentences for this type of offence. However, we should find a way — by amending some Act — to allow litter bugs to discharge their duties by cleaning up litter.

Mr. Howlin

I will discuss that with the Minister for Justice.

Chairman

The Committee will also write directly to the Minister for Justice arising from this discussion. Is that agreed? Agreed. Is the amendment being withdrawn?

Mr. Sargent

Yes, in the context that we are writing to the Minister for Justice and that the Minister, Deputy Howlin, will be in communication with her.

Chairman

We will draft the letter and show it to Deputy Sargent before we send it.

Mr. Sargent

I look forward to that. Hopefully, we will deal with it on Report Stage.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Section agreed to.