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SELECT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE debate -
Thursday, 4 Jun 1998

Vol. 1 No. 5

Estimates for Public Services, 1998:

Vote 1: President’s Establishment.

Vote 2: Houses of the Oireachtas and European Parliament.

Vote 4: Increases in Remuneration and Pensions.

Vote 6: Office of the Minister for Finance.

Vote 7: Superannuation and Retired Allowances.

Vote 8: Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

Vote 9: Office of the Revenue Commissioners.

Vote 11: State Laboratory.

Vote 12: Secret Service.

Vote 15: Valuation and Ordnance Survey.

Vote 16: Civil Service Commission.

Vote 17: Office of the Ombudsman.

On behalf of the committee I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Cullen, and his officials to the meeting. The Minister for Finance, Deputy McCreevy, sends his apologies for his unavoidable absence as he has to leave Dublin this morning for an EU meeting in Luxembourg.

We are meeting this morning to consider the 1998 Estimates for what is termed the Finance Group of Votes, including the Vote for the Office of Public Works.

Is the proposed timetable for today's meeting agreed? Agreed.

I would ask for co-operation in dealing with the Estimates in the most effective way. I propose that the Minister of State should make his opening statement after which the Opposition spokespersons will make statements of ten minutes each. In that way the Committee will have an opportunity to debate the major issues involved within the individual subheads.

I am obviously glad to have the opportunity to introduce the 1998 Estimates for the Finance Group of Votes, excluding the Office of Public Works which I will present to the Committee later on today. In accordance with a recommendation by this Committee in 1996, the Estimates for the Office of the Attorney General, the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions and the Office of the Chief State Solicitor are now taken by the Taoiseach.

The total of the Estimates for the Finance Group, excluding the offices I have mentioned, is over £441 million. The largest Vote in the group is Vote 9, which is the Office of the Revenue Commissioners, with a total net estimate of just over £158 million.

In all there are 12 Votes in the group and Committee Members have already been provided with details of the amounts for which approval is sought for 1998. I will be happy, of course, in our discussions today to provide any further information that Members may require.

Before dealing with some of the individual Estimates in the group, it is customary to outline recent economic progress and the overall position of the public finances. It would be appropriate for me to review briefly the remarkable performance of the economy in recent years and to summarise prospects for the future.

In terms of economic growth, we have outperformed our EU partners for four years in succession. Irish economic growth was the highest in the EU, at around 8 per cent last year. This growth is broad-based and its impact on unemployment has been particularly encouraging. The buoyant economic performance has been translated into record employment growth which has averaged 4 per cent per annum in recent years. Our unemployment rate, according to the latest available comparable data, at 9.6 per cent, was below the EU average of 10.3 per cent on an ILO basis. It has fallen from 15.4 per cent in 1993. The latest CSO figures from the new quarterly national household survey show that the strong growth in employment is being maintained.

This remarkable economic performance has flowed from the prudent budgetary policies of successive Governments, coupled with a decade of social consensus, involving unions, employers, farmers and Government. Our achievements have ensured that we qualify for economic and monetary union.

The establishment of the euro will yield significant further benefits for Ireland. Membership of EMU offers Ireland the prospect of stable economic conditions, based on price stability. The adoption of the euro will consolidate the gains already achieved through the single market and together they will promote further the process of integration and real convergence which should, over time, lessen the risk of major shocks affecting individual countries.

Of course, participation in EMU will also present challenges. In EMU, with the alignment of interest rates and the permanent fixing of exchange rates, the available tools for adjusting national competitiveness and stabilising national output will be limited. The international competitiveness of the economy will have to be secured through other means. If there are shocks in the future which are particular to Ireland, the adjustment process will have to be assisted by a combination of fiscal policy, pay policy and structural reform.

The outlook for the economy continues to be very favourable with further strong growth in output and employment in prospect for the next couple of years at least. Economic growth here is expected to continue to be well ahead of the EU average. With further strong expansion in employment and continuing growth in investment and exports, unemployment is predicted to fall further below the EU average. Overall, economic growth is forecast to average about 7 per cent per annum over the three years to 2000.

The principal danger to this favourable outlook is that inflationary pressures could undermine the present strong growth phase. We must be alert to these dangers. In recent years, the economy has demonstrated its ability to combine very strong growth with moderate inflation. Despite record levels of growth, average price inflation in the past three years has been around 1.5 per cent, though inflation has recently picked up somewhat to around 2.5 per cent. While the strength of sterling over the past year has added to inflationary pressures in the economy, this factor is likely to unwind over the next 12 months or so in line with UK currency movements which have already seen its DM rate fall back recently. The subdued level of international inflation is expected to have a continuing benign impact on inflation in Ireland. Wage pressures are being minimised through the disciplines of the Partnership 2000 agreement. Nevertheless, we must be extremely vigilant about inflation. All the social partners must play their part in ensuring that any temporary pick up in inflation this year arising from exchange rate movements is not internalised here through compensating increases in wages and costs.

The Government's policy on expenditure as set out in An Action Programme for the Millennium is set to limit net current spending growth to 4 per cent and capital spending growth to 5 per cent on average up to 1999 and to reduce overall Government spending as a share of national output.

Controlling public expenditure is essential if we are to ensure that budgetary and economic policy continues to deliver the benefits we have seen in recent years in underpinning sustainable growth, keeping inflation under control and further improving our competitiveness. Successful participation in economic and monetary union will require tight fiscal management. Along with the other member states which have joined the single currency, we have committed ourselves to taking whatever action is necessary to maintain tight budgetary discipline. In deciding the 1998 Estimates, the Government was greatly influenced by these considerations.

If the Government's expenditure plans do not strike the right balance between the requirements of a tight budgetary policy, particularly in the context of our participation in EMU and the need to meet social and economic priorities, it will be all the more difficult to sustain the progress of recent years. We know only too well from past experience that, if public expenditure is not handled properly, economic policy can go seriously wrong. The Government is keenly aware that public expenditure which is allowed to grow too rapidly can place severe constraints on the budget configuration and add to inflationary pressures within the economy. The Government's approach to public expenditure is clearly focused on minimising these risks. These objectives will be assisted by the move to a new system of multi-annual budgeting under which the Government will settle three year financial envelopes or expenditure allocations for Departments in the light of its policy priorities and the medium term budget position.

Delivering Better Government, the 1996 report of the group of secretaries co-ordinating the introduction of the strategic management initiative, recommended that a multi-annual budgeting system be introduced. This Government has firmly endorsed the strategic management initiative and significant progress has been made with the introduction of the new multi-annual budgeting system.

A multi-annual projection of the major revenue and expenditure aggregates on the assumption of unchanged policies was published with the 1997 budget. The expenditure data were in aggregate form, without a breakdown by Vote groups. The Minister developed the approach further by publishing, as part of the presentation of the medium-term implications of the 1998 budget, projections showing expenditure by individual ministerial Vote groups for the period 1998 to 2000. The projections are on the basis of a "no policy change" assessment of the final 1998 expenditure allocations decided by the Government.

As announced in the 1998 budget, the Government has already agreed to implement certain important reforms in regard to multi-annual budgeting which would involve the Government making decisions for resource allocation over a three year period covering the main budgetary aggregates of taxation, expenditure and borrowing. We will be considering the implementation of this framework in the 1999 budget preparations.

I now propose to deal with some of the Votes in the Finance group which are the particular subject of our discussions here today. To recap briefly, the group comprises Votes with a total net provision for which approval is sought for £441.141 million. I propose to comment on some of the principal Votes in the group.

As always, Vote 2 is of special interest to the Committee. The 1998 net provision of £34.434 million shows a decrease of 8 per cent on the 1997 out-turn mainly because of the fact that, because of the 1997 general election, significant pension and termination payments fell to be met in that year. I should point out that additional costs arising from the package of improved allowances for Members of the Oireachtas, which were recently announced, are not included in the 1998 Estimate currently before the committee. These additional costs will fall to be met by way of Supplementary Estimate later in the year.

Vote 4 on increases in remuneration and pensions provides £84 million to cover the cost of settlements in PCW local bargaining negotiations which have not yet been finalised. Although the PCW expired in the public service on 30 June 1997, a number of local bargaining cases remain to be resolved. At this stage, settlements have been concluded with the vast majority of public servants, generally within the established norm. This limit must be adhered to in resolving the remaining cases. Otherwise, there is a risk that other groups might seek to reopen settlements which have already been concluded and that the whole public service pay situation would unravel.

Excessive pay demands in the public service risk undermining the performance of the entire economy by increasing public expenditure without any improvement in the quality of public services being provided. Concession of these demands would pre-empt resources which could be used for the many worthwhile objectives of Government, particularly further reductions in taxation which would benefit the community as a whole. Concession of excessive pay demands would also have an adverse effect on the general pay climate in the economy and on competitiveness. This would undermine our economic performance and ultimately lead to reduced employment which would not be in anyone's interest.

The Partnership 2000 pay agreement came into operation in the public service on 1 July 1997. It provides for general round increases totalling 7.25 per cent plus and a locally negotiated increase of 2 per cent which is conditional on progress in implementing the public service modernisation programme. The Government is prepared to honour its side of the deal and others must play their part. It is essential that the terms of Partnership 2000, including the explicit limit on the cost of local bargaining increases and the commitments to full and ongoing co-operation with change, are adhered to within the public service. This is the best way of ensuring we can continue to manage public services and the economy as a whole in a balanced and responsible way which will benefit everyone.

Vote 6, for the Department of Finance, amounts to more than £37 mill ion, an increase of more than £8 million or 29 per cent on 199 7. The substantial increase arises from the following exceptio nal sources: the administrative budget includes an amount of mo re than £2.9 million for the acquisition of a new computerised p ersonnel system which is required to replace an existing system and facilitate the planned developments in human resources man agement in the Civil Service under the SMI Delivering Better Gov ernment programme; it also includes amounts for the upgrading of computer services within the Department to ensure year 2000 co mpliance and associated consultancy costs.

As in 1997, the Finance Estimate is being used to accommodate some £2.9 millio n in funding for various technical assistance-type activities related to EU 8 Structural Funds pending recoupment, usually at an aid rate of 75 per cent, from the European Commission. The activities which are eligible for aid are those included in the CSF te chnical assistance programme and relate mainly to the evaluati on and information requirements of the CSF, improvements to the management of the CSF and the administration costs of the region al authorities in respect of their functions with regard to EU funds.

A provision of £775,000 has been made for the Euro Changeover Board of Ireland. The Committee will recall that the board was established on 5 May 1998. The board has two basic tasks, namely, to oversee the implementation of the changeover to the euro and to provide public and consumer information about this process.

The payments to promoters of certain charitable lotteries, the national lottery funds scheme, was set up in 1997. A provision of £5.4 million is available to this scheme in 1998. The scheme is a very focused initiative intended to address the circumstances of those private charitable lotteries which have products in the marketplace in direct competition with the national lottery. Prudent provision of some £1 million has been made for special consultancy services in connection with a possible restructuring of the State banking sector.

The other significant Vote is Vote 9 for the Office of the Revenue Commissioners. This amounts to more than £158 million, of which some £129 million is in respect of pay and allowances for more than 6,000 staff. The proposed Vote provision, for which approval is sought, shows a net increase of £10.015 million or 7 per cent on the 1997 out-turn. The two main reasons are pay increases which account for £4.5 million and an increase in computer spending of almost £5 million. The purpose of the latter is to provide funding for major developments such as integrated tax processing which, when completed, will enable a consolidated view of a taxpayer's affairs across all tax headings. In addition, integrated tax processing will address, where necessary, changes required in relation to the year 2000 or the so-called "millennium bug". Funding has also been provided to replace the present, largely manual stamp duty system relating to land and property transactions with an integrated computerised system. Computer technology, by virtue of its increasing versatility and potential for making radical improvements in the way business is conducted, presents unparalleled opportunities to devise new approaches. The investment by the Revenue Commissioners in computer technology over the years has helped the office to implement in an effective way the SMI concepts of delivering better quality service, thus playing an active and positive role in the competitiveness of the nation.

I thank Committee Members for their attention. I shall be pleased to hear their views and will do my best to provide answers to any questions they may wish to raise, including any Votes to which I have not specifically referred in the course of my statement.

I thank the Minister of State for coming here to deal with the Estimates and for the user-friendly manner in which he and his officials provided us with the information. It is well laid out and will minimise our difficulties because the information is readily available to us in the material circulated. I will follow the pattern set by the Minister in first commenting generally on the economy and examining a couple of the Votes in a question and answer session.

The economy is doing well and this Government is continuing the progress made by the rainbow Government, under which levels of growth which were unprecedented not only in Ireland but in most parts of the world were not only reached but maintained and sustained. I am delighted with the Minister's projection that growth will be sustained at an average of 7 per cent over the next three years.

I am interested in the Minister's comments on employment and I suggest that the Department of Finance should concentrate more on the nature of current unemployment. As I understand it from the Central Bank's annual report for 1997, short-term unemployment is running at 4.5 per cent, which suggests a tight labour market at that end, where one finds people with skills. That is creating its own difficulties for industry. At the same time, long-term unemployment is staying stubbornly high and does not seem to be responding to the growing economy in the same way as short-term unemployment. It seems that the short-term unemployed, people moving from farming, women coming into the workforce for the first time, and inward migrants are taking up the bulk of the extra jobs. There is an ongoing, quasi-permanent difficulty with long-term unemployed persons. We need better information and the initiatives at Government level need to be re-examined.

The role of FÁS must be re-examined. It has a training function and a social function. There is scope for more on-job training for the long-term unemployed and the dichotomy between employment schemes and the world of work could be eliminated. There should be more focus. The recent CSO quarterly national household survey gives much extra information but the questions asked in it were different from those asked previously, so to a degree it gives distorted or at least unclear results. We must focus on the problem of long-term unemployment because everything else is going so well. That problem is not responding to present initiatives and the normal rise of the economy will not bring that quantum of people back to work. That being said, great progress is continuing to be made and I hope it can be sustained.

The Minister commented that as a result of EMU previous tools of economic management are no longer available to Governments. It will not be possible to get the economy to respond through mechanisms such as monetary policy changes, devaluations, revaluations and interest rate reductions or increases. He repeated what a number of Ministers have said recently - if there is a shock in the future, the process will have to be assisted by a combination of fiscal policy, pay policy and structural reform. That is becoming a cliché and the range of options is not sufficient to deal with a prospective shock to the economy. The Department's policy makers and the Minister must focus more on the range of policy levers available, which is not sufficient at the moment.

Surplus budgeting will be a key economic tool in the future. Under the EMU arrangements it will not be possible for the Government to run a deficit in excess of 3 per cent of GDP. We are on the brink of running a significant current budget surplus this year because of the buoyancy of revenue. A lot of people are of the view that if the Government runs a budget surplus of £1 billion, for example, that money will be put on deposit for a rainy day and the spending of it will become a fiscal tool, but that is not the case. If one runs a surplus of £1 billion, when the economic cycle changes the Government can spend an extra £1 billion on current expenditure without running a deficit. It is not a matter of spending money which has been saved but where one pegs the surplus and how it is set against the 3 per cent deficit. That is the range of fiscal measures which is available. It is not simply putting money away for a rainy day, it is pegging expenditure at the point where one can loosen it if economic circumstances so require. More economic analysis needs to be done by the Department; perhaps it is being done already but if so it should be communicated to everyone else. It is not enough to say budget surpluses are a good thing so we are going to run them in the future we hope they will be big but if not at least we will have something. A level of measurement must be provided and we must project forward.

The suggestion of those running the new European Central Bank is that we should "load the fiscal gun", by which they mean we should run surpluses at a level where one can change expenditure profiles and run a budgetary position where one does not get into deficit when times are bad but the surpluses are evened out. The idea behind this is that the Department should make an effort to measure surpluses and to match them for fiscal management against possible shocks in the future.

As I said, the range of measures available to the Minister is too limited and he will have to look for others. We know interest rates are coming down but what shocks will hit the system if there is a major interest rate increase across Europe in two or three years? With our high levels of home ownership we are far more vulnerable than anywhere else in Europe to a shock from mortgage increases. We all remember the pressure on wages when mortgage interest rates reached 18 per cent. The Government would be wise to adopt a policy or intervene to encourage people to move to fixed rate mortgages, which occur across Europe in countries where the level of home ownership is far lower than ours. Can one imagine the devastation caused to social partnership if interest rates doubled as a result of circumstances in Europe? The shock on the pay side will come from dramatic increases in mortgages. There is no reason people should not take out fixed rate mortgages and the Minister should be encouraging this, both at the level of advocacy and through a tax inducement to persuade people who currently have mortgages to take out fixed rate loans. That will stabilise us against future shocks.

I will make further points during the question and answer session.

I am pleased to have the opportunity to contribute to this discussion this morning and I thank the Minister and his officials for the helpful presentation which they gave us.

I want to concentrate on expenditure, not on what the Minister has done in terms of the economy. When I read the Minister's script which cites the wonderful things happening in our economy and the statistics which are so impressive, I have to remind myself what type of country this is. Obviously huge numbers of people have benefited from the economic boom over the last five years but a large number of people have not. Deputy Noonan pointed out that our level of long-term unemployment is stubbornly high. The country is underdeveloped in terms of infrastructural development in comparison to the European average. We have developed structural inequalities with which we have to deal as a matter of policy. We are at risk of surrendering control over those issues to a European orthodoxy which we scarcely contradict.

The Minster participated in two meetings with ECOFIN recently, following which two communiqués were issued which stated that we agreed that if we ran up any unanticipated surplus on our current budget, we would save it and use it to abase debt. This is not good enough. We must make the case that there are things on which we should spend money - infrastructural development, social inclusion, social inequality and long-term unemployment. That case must be made.

The Minister says that we need to control public expenditure but we hear little from him about the inflationary impact of tax reduction and specifically the effect of reducing tax for those who have a great deal of discretionary income. Spending money is not the only factor which contributes to inflation, the fact that the Minister has put a large amount of money into the pockets of those who already have it also contributes. That is at least as responsible for the potential inflationary difficulties which we now face.

We must look at the European stability pact carefully. There must be provision for countries such as Ireland to spend money on capital infrastructure and to borrow if necessary. We should have that argument now. The wording of the pact is ambiguous about capital spending. There should be a greater degree of clarity. We are not the only ones who hold that view.

The Minister spells out the Government's commitment to capping public expenditure at certain levels. These targets are daft and there is no political commitment to meet them. The only possibility of meeting them is to fix the figures. The Minister would be doing us all a favour if he did not repeat these figures.

Public expenditure and value for money are serious issues. The net or gross figures are not the issue, value for taxpayers' money is the issue. Many of us in this House are convinced that we are not getting good value. The previous Government started expenditure reviews more than a year ago. There were two elements which were to be looked at in the Finance Estimate over the last year and another two which were to be looked at in the coming year. The Minister should tell us about that in his reply.

This review programme is important but I see little commitment from this Government to carry it through. The intention was that every programme would be reviewed over the next three years. The Department has provided me with a list of indicative reviews to which the Government has agreed. I would like the Minister to tell us what progress has been made. Has he decided if the results of these reviews should be made public? It is extremely important that they should. The multi-annual budgeting system is concerned with a more intelligent way of making choices about how we spend the public's money. If that is to work it must be accountable. People must know why and by whom the choices were made. Knowing whether we are getting value for money is an important part of making that decision.

In the brief we were given in advance of this meeting, I see signs of financial enveloping in relation to public sector pay, that the Department will decide in future the amount of money to be provided for local bargaining clauses and distribute it to the other Departments which would then be required to work within that budget. It is inadequate for the Department to make a decision, hand it down and expect it to be implemented. We need to know the basis on which the decision is made and how it is expected to be operated by Departments. There has to be an agreed appeals mechanism whereby a Department can look for more money. This requires a revolution in the manner in which we expend money, a complete change in the Estimates process as it is understood. Although I have heard some rhetoric from the Minister, I do not sense the political commitment necessary to do this. This is critical; the Estimates process, as traditionally understood, is dead. People must be treated more intelligently.

At present, a Department overinflates its budget and is told it is asking for too much. It then cuts the least sensitive areas and there is a great deal of trading within Cabinet and elsewhere. It is not good enough that all decisions about how people's money is spent are made in private with no public accountability. How will the financial envelope system work in relation to public sector pay? How have the decisions about these figures been reached? If they are simply percentages then that is not good enough. We need a more transparent system. It is not sufficient that someone in the Department of Finance comes up with a percentage figure and tells the other Departments to work with that figure. We must know how and by whom the decisions are made. If we do not know that, the figures will not be adhered to and in a year's time we will be in the same situation as we are now.

I noticed when going through the Finance Estimates expenditure reviews that there is very little which affects the Department of Finance. This reflects a greater interest in reviewing expenditure programmes and there are relatively few of these in the Department. That priority is right but we need to have a detailed look at the service itself. There have been mission statements and strategies but we need to work out means by which we could measure the performance of Departments. In drawing up these lists we need to look beyond expenditure programmes.

The multi-annual budgeting system is something which we need to develop. I sense the Minister is dragging his feet on this and I hope the Minister of State will give me some reassurance.

We will move on now to the Votes. Does anyone have any queries about the President's Establishment?

Only that we wish the President well and hope she will spend the money sensibly.

I want to put this delicately. I have the impression that the President is not travelling as much as the previous President, yet there is a significant increase in the travel and subsistence budget.

It is not being reported.

Maybe that is so. Are there plans for State visits which would justify that increase?

My information is that the President is fulfilling a substantial range of international travel arrangements but I do not have the details in front of me. One of the reasons for the increase is that the President wants to develop a much more open approach at the Áras. She has organised many special recognition days which obviously will involve extra expenditure, but that will involve many people from all parts of the island in various functions and events centred around the Áras. That is one of the issues.

There are two State visits, to Canada and Australia, in 1998.

The 62 per cent increase in travel and subsistence in subhead A2 is quite high. I had the impression, perhaps wrongly, that the President is not travelling abroad as much as her predecessor.

The reason for that would appear to be that last year there were not many State visits at the end of the previous President's term of office. That is why the figure has increased a little this year. It has increased from a low base the previous year. If one went back, one would see the figures. The costs are obviously rising also.

The amount of money for people who have reached the age of 100 seems to have increased. There is a 70 per cent increase in the amount allocated to those who reach the ripe old age of 100. The amount has almost doubled.

Seemingly, we are all living much longer. This year there is a larger number of centenarians than usual. They will be paid £300. The sum was increased also.

Is that payable to persons in Northern Ireland?

No, but that may happen.

The secretaries of Deputies and Senators are badly paid for the amount of work they are doing now. Their jobs have changed completely. There was a time when a secretary was effectively a clerk typist. One handed the secretary a tape of letters and he or she stuck it in a machine and typed all day. However, that is not the way secretaries are operating now. They give a full range of personal assistance services. There are several telephone lines going into the offices simultaneously and a range of new computerised equipment, including the e-mail and Internet service. Secretaries access research material from the Oireachtas network and the Internet. They are word-processing all the time. Is there a plan to review the pay and conditions of the Deputies' secretaries within the Houses of the Oireachtas?

I am familiar with the point the Deputy is making and I agree to some extent with it. However, in a general sense, throughout the Civil Service people are interfacing with all sorts of new technology. Everybody is having to change their knowledge base and it requires different methods of work and operation. In a general sense, the workload of Deputies' secretaries is quite extraordinary and it has increased. It has diversified into many more areas. While there are no immediate plans, it is an issue which has been raised.

I know the Minister cannot answer today, but will he take an interest in this matter as Minister of State? When there are changes in other parts of the public service, there are all sorts of other options. One can have different promotional structures, extra staff in different sections and staff can be redeployed. However, it is a one-to-one situation in Leinster House. No matter how the workload changes or increases, there is still only one person to do it. The possibility of getting additional help to deal with changing workloads does not exist.

I have taken an interest in the matter. A number of people have mentioned it to me. I fully understand it. The job description is different from what it was historically. That is a reasonable point and it deserves a reasonable response.

On subhead D, the televising of the proceedings of Dáil and Seanad, were the operators getting double and treble time for showing it at 3 a.m.?

I endorse what Deputy Noonan said. Within my party, the job description of secretaries has changed beyond recognition, even in the short time I have been a Member. Incidentally, about one third of Labour Party Deputies have male assistants. Secretaries are apparently female, whereas the males are assistants. However, they are now required to do certain work which would not have been the case five or six years ago. For instance, they are required to draft leaflets and press statements. It is quite different from the comparable grade within the Civil Service. I know this issue is replete with IR difficulties, of which there have been many over the years. There is a need to examine it creatively, whether we examine allowances or the basic pay, acknowledging the nature of the work and the fact that it has changed so much over the last while. We can safely say we are speaking on behalf of 90 per cent of the Members of this House when we make those points.

There was a provision for providing office machinery to Deputies during the past year. Is there a commitment to putting the replies to parliamentary questions on the House network? While it is useful to have access to the debates, most of us would find it even more useful if the replies to parliamentary questions were on the House network. It is intended to do that, but I am unsure about the present state of play.

It is time to consider the way the Dáil debates are televised, although this is not specifically related to the Estimate. There are restrictions on the camera angles which can be used, the use of reaction shots, etc. We know it is being broadcast at 2 a.m. or 3 a.m. at present and nobody is watching it. I take it the Minister may have more detailed information on the TnaG audience.

I do not think that is relevant.

If we made it better, we could sell it for more. To that extent, it is relevant. I am not sure how many people watch Question Time, for example, on TnaG, but I suspect very few. We need to look at the presentation. That is my basic point. I do not want to delay the committee too much on that.

Subhead C relates to the allowances to former Members who lose their seats and are paid a lump sum and a reducing amount of pay over a subsequent number of years. What happens if one regains the seat? Must one repay the lump sum? What happens to that entitlement?

On subhead D, to what extent are the Oireachtas pensions self-financing? It is all done on a contributory basis. To what extent is it subsidised by the Exchequer and to what extent is it self-financing?

That is in subhead G.

The Deputy raised a number of issues, some of which are not related to this matter. However I accept the spirit of his comments. The world is always changing and the notion that something is set in stone is no longer accepted. Continual change should be the approach to everything and we should build flexibility into the systems. Questions were asked about information and how things were achieved. Much of this will be available under the Freedom of Information Act. We are in the early days of FOI and the Deputy has been active in this regard. I hope he is getting responses. We are all in a learning process. FOI will result in greater clarity and a better decision making process. One can see this in countries which have had experience of FOI for some years. It is one of the positive results of FOI.

The Deputy asked a question about a lump sum. The lump sum is based on what the TD earned to date. If he is re-elected, whatever happens then is based on employment experience - it is retrospectively based on what he contributed. I do not have the specific information on whether the totality of the pension fund as it affects TDs is fully paid up by Members or whether there is some subsidy involved. I will obtain that information for the Deputy.

I have responded to the point on secretarial assistants. Negotiations are taking place with the secretarial assistants under the PCW and hopefully the matter will be resolved soon. A new £5,000 allowance is paid to TDs which is specifically for secretarial work. How this is disbursed is a matter for TDs. They can look at the work of secretaries in that context. There is recognition of the matter. We might not have completed the totality of the package that should be available to secretaries. I agree with the sentiments expressed.

What personal staff have been employed under contract by the Minister of State and the Minister for Finance? I am referring to personal assistants, programme managers, press officers, constituency workers and anyone under contract in a PR capacity.

I have a personal assistant and drivers. One is entitled to two drivers. These are the only non-Civil Service staff based in the office for all Ministers. The number of assistants and advisers available was substantially reduced by the Government. I have no adviser, just a personal assistant. I have a constituency office secretary which is my TD secretary. I do not have a press officer, but I wish I did. There is a press officer in the Department of Finance.

There is a unit. Is that not available to the Minister of State?

The unit is available but the volume of work from one Minister often precludes another Minister from gaining access in the manner in which he might like. We have a good working relationship. However, I was asked a specific question about my personal staff and I have answered it.

What about the Minister for Finance?

The Minister for Finance has a personal assistant, personal secretary and a press and information officer. He does not have a programme manager or special adviser.

Are PR consultants retained by either Minister?

Are we talking about the entire Vote?

There are some systems of performance-related pay relating to higher grades in the Department. Will the Minister of State tell us how it works and indicate whether it is intended to extend it? Does he agree this is an important element of the SMI process which we should be seeking to encourage?

I wish to ask about a number of the changes, the most striking of which is consultancy services. This appears as two different types of consultancy service. I am concerned at what seems like the increasing use of consultancy services - farming out policy making work. We have seen a number of examples of this in the past few months, the most obvious being the Bacon report on house prices. Another example is the Minimum Wage Commission which was asked to come up with a recommendation which the Department did not like and is seeking to change. We need to look carefully at the manner in which consultancy services are used. What are the Minister of State's views on this matter?

Performance-related pay is an issue which the Government wants to see resolved within the Civil Service. We have some of the best people available in the public sector but we have to retain them. They must have the same opportunities as those available in the private sector. The Government and I are committed to this. Some element of performance-related pay is available at assistant secretary level but that is not sufficient in the context of the question. Consultants have been asked to examine how we can broaden the scope of performance-related pay in the Civil Service. I am anxious that this will happen quickly and that we will get some definite conclusions. It will be beneficial in monetary terms but also for morale and the future development of opportunities for third level graduates in the Civil Service.

Given the vast changes and economic interaction between the State and private sectors, it is good that there is an exchange of views, albeit on a consultancy basis, and an input into policy from different elements of the economic spectrum. The State is correct not to rely totally on an in-house view. It is worth getting an outside view. That is a good use of State resources. It sharpens and broadens our focus and, perhaps, improves the quality of the results. The consultancy service is there to inform, advise and formulate opinion, but one does not always have to take it on board. Just because we hire consultants who take a view, it would be wrong to regard that view as sacrosanct and to always implement it. That is not the purpose of consultants. They are there to inform and assist us in making a policy decision. Sometimes their proposals will be agreed because they are believed to be correct in the first instance. I do not see this diminishing. I see it as part of the interaction in the economy of modern Ireland, if it is done properly and within reason, which does not mean spending vast sums of taxpayers' money on consultancies. However, there is benefit in the way it has been developed until now.

I agree with the Minister of State but, while he has given a fine description, that is not what happens in practice. When a decision must be made on a politically sensitive issue, consultancy is used as a means of parking that decision or avoiding it altogether. The most obvious recent example is the Bacon report where the Government decided not to make a decision and effectively allowed Dr. Bacon to make the decision for it. No doubt there was some cross-fertilisation of ideas, but the Minister later addressed the House almost as if the issue were not his responsibility by saying Dr. Bacon made recommendations, ergo they must be done. While what the Minister of State has said is correct, it is important consultancy is not used as a means by which Ministers can say they are not responsible for certain decisions, something of which there has been an increasing incidence recently.

I disagree with the Deputy on one point. Professional experts who work in a given market have technical information which people such as I or senior officials in my Department would not have. I never sensed on the part of the Government as regards the Bacon report that, because it recommended certain actions, ergo they had to be implemented. The Deputy is correct in saying it was used to inform, but some of the ideas which arose in discussions were promoted by Fine Gael and other parties. The issue was how to use them best to the benefit of the market place. That is a more reasonable assessment than the suggestion that decisions were given to others to make. It would be foolish to start thinking of consultancies in the narrow way the Deputy does. The Bacon report was completed in a short time. It was focused and intense and confirmed for the Government what it suspected was the case.

I entirely disagree with the Minister on that issue.

I have two other questions. The first concerns the provision of £1 million for the possible sale or restructuring of the State banking sector. Can the Minister inform us of the state of play in that area? Provision was made over the past several years for restructuring the State banking sector. Is there any reason to suspect the money might be spent this year?

The second question concerns the need to update or change the hardware and software within the Department to make it year 2000 compatible. Will the Minister tell us more about that and how much work is involved?

On the issue of the £1 million, the Minister stated recently, a number of times in my presence and in the House, that he is anxious to bring the matter of State banks to a conclusion. There have been many discussions with those involved and the Minister has ruled out nothing. The Government would like the matter concluded soon.

Assuming it is, on what will the £1 million be spent?

It is a contingency sum. We are not saying it will cost £1 million; it might be substantially less. However, it is conceivable that, depending on the approach taken, the consultancies involved in the sale of the State banks could reach a figure of that order. We do not expect they will but we do not want to submit too low a figure and have to request more funding later. It is a contingency figure because we do not know what the cost will be.

Will we employ consultants to tell us how to dispose of the State banks or will we decide first and then employ the consultants to do it?

It will probably be a mixture of both. We have a strong view on what should happen but the mechanisms for the flotation of the banks and the manner in which the sale is conducted will obviously involve outside experts who will handle the sale. The Deputy is trying to draw out of me what precisely will happen, but I am not in a position to tell him and not should he expect me to be.

The Minister of State has helped me to some degree by stating he has a strong view on how it should happen. The Minister, Deputy McCreevy, has said he does not care so long as there is agreement. He calls it "an open mind" and has said he is open to all options. The Minister of State has said that he has a strong view. Perhaps he could elucidate further as to what that is.

The Deputy is using language to try to create a difference. I have a view on the State banks, as does the Minister. He has stated clearly he is not ruling out any options. There is clear support within the banks for a different future. Everyone recognises that, as they currently exist, they may not be in a position to maximise their potential in the marketplace in future.

I do not wish to delay the meeting as I am aware the Minister of State is unlikely to respond further. However, is the £1 million for the cost of floating the banks?

No, and I do not wish to pursue this matter any further. As I said, it is a contingency figure to cover all possible eventualities. The Deputy knows as well as I that not all the £1 million will be required.

What about year 2000 compatibility?

This is an important issue and I have attended meetings on it. I will read a note which might update people on matters.

The interdepartmental special interest group on the year 2000 problem was set up in 1996 to identify and address common technical issues affecting Departments and offices. Every Department and office is represented on this group and it continues to meet regularly. A number of electronic mechanisms have been put in place to disseminate year 2000 information. These are updated as new information becomes available.

The Government directed in 1997 that each Department and office is responsible for ensuring IT systems which support their business and systems operated by public bodies under its aegis are made year 2000 compliant in good time. The Department of Finance issued a circular in March 1997 to Departments and offices on IT systems and the year 2000. It required Departments and offices to verify the year 2000 compliance status of their IT infrastructures and systems. For non-compliant systems, Departments and offices were asked to draw up plans to adapt to year 2000 compliant systems.

Much needs to be done in terms of either new systems being put in place or existing ones being updated to be year 2000 compliant. The costs involved are staggering and we are trying to keep figures to a minimum within the Department. However, we must ensure the system works, that it is year 2000 compliant and that it has the capacity to deliver beyond that. That is why the figure is included in the Vote.

Unilever has spent £340 million to be year 2000 compliant. Bank of Ireland has gone way beyond its original estimate and has spent £40 million, which is a huge sum of money for one company. If the State's role and that in which it is involved is taken into account, the figures concerning costs incurred by it are reasonable to date.

That is why I asked the question. We have all seen publicity about the amount of money being spent in Britain by the Government apparatus in making itself year 2000 compliant which seems to run into billions of pounds. The figures for this country seem to be remarkably low by comparison. I do not claim any expertise in the IT area and, if the Minister of State assures me that enough is being done, I will accept what he says at face value. However, it does strike me as a remarkable contrast in terms of cost.

I suspect the reason the figures appear so large for the UK is that figures are being sourced to it for globalised industries. Unilever is not spending £340 million in the UK but the figure is sourced in the UK even though it is being spent around the world in Unilever's various companies. However, that is a UK sourced figure attributable to their spend there, although it is really being spent all over the world in their various companies. That might be one difference.

The other interesting fact was that the people who were over here to discuss the year 2000 and the millennium bug problem said the view on the assessments was that Ireland and the Netherlands were the two best prepared countries to date for the year 2000. That was complimentary to business in general in Ireland. That is not to say there are not many problems because there are huge problems everywhere. However, from the point of view of tracing and dealing with them, Ireland and the Netherlands were the best countries.

Is all the software purchased for this year and for next year compliant with the year 2000 or will it have to be made compliant at substantial cost? Given that we have been aware of the millennium bug for some time, from what year is it necessary to update computer software? In other words, were last year's purchases compatible with the year 2000? I hope we are not buying anything now that would have to be revised next year to render it compatible.

No. Everybody who buys software now is so familiar with year 2000 compliance that they are purchasing equipment that will work. Obviously, outdated equipment which needs to be upgraded is included in the costs. We are using the opportunity to replace that equipment with year 2000 compliant equipment.

The Minister for Finance admonishes everybody to control expenditure, yet the increase on Vote 6, for his own office, is 29 per cent. Such an astronomical increase is a bad example from a Minister who is charged with controlling public expenditure. Is there a reasonable explanation for the increase other than ensuring that the home fires are kept burning regardless of what happens elsewhere?

That was the first question that came to mind when I looked at it. There are specific reasons for the increase. One cannot take this group of Estimates or the Vote for the Department of Finance in isolation, as there have been decreases in 1998 spending for other larger Votes as compared with the 1997 outturn. Voted current spending for the Civil Service is increased by only 7 per cent and by 2.8 per cent including the central fund.

A number of points should be made about the Department of Finance Vote. The acquisition of the new computerised personnel system at a cost of £1.034 million in order to facilitate planned developments in human resources management is one of the costs within the Civil Service. It relates in particular to the strategic management initiative in delivering better Government which is under subhead A.8, year 2000 computer compliance costs for the Department and the consultancy to which I referred earlier. With regard to the provision of £2.9 million in subhead L, Structural Funds technical assistance which are referred to in the introductory note, 75 per cent of that funding will be returned but it must be shown in the Vote for technical reasons. Otherwise EU aid would be lost. The total figure is about £8 million. On a lower base figure, however, it shows as a higher percentage.

In the briefing note on pay and the manner in which Partnership 2000 will be phased in, the Minister of State refers to the local bargaining provision of 2 per cent. He also said that the intention is that each line Department will work on an envelope of money for payroll purposes which will include 2 per cent for local bargaining purposes. If a Department were a private company, it would have the discretion to work on the overall numbers as well as on the level of pay. Are Departments being given discretion over the numbers they employ as well as being confined to the envelope of money?

I am not sure about the numbers but I will forward an answer to the Deputy. My view is that in time, in the context of the envelope and multi-annual budgeting, those issues will be central to making it work in the future. One cannot give responsibility on one hand and on the other hand not allow the Department to make the overall decision.

I agree with the Minister of State. It makes no sense to give people an envelope of money within which they must operate and tell them they can negotiate but, regardless of those negotiations, they will only get an extra 2 per cent if, at the same time, they are not given the freedom to negotiate productivity and flexibility arrangements which would allow the same work to be done by fewer people. That would be the normal practice in private sector industrial relations.

That is the point. There is flexibility within the total budget for the Departments to make some changes within their administrative heads.

I left office 12 months ago and the situation then was that the Department of Finance controlled the number of staff and it was not possible to vary it without the sanction of that Department. Is there devolution of that function to the line Departments in the new arrangements?

The total number is controlled by the Department of Finance. However, if a Department wants to take a course of action whereby it will get better value for money from fewer people by changing systems or it can pay people more but fewer people are required, that can be resolved within the Department. However, there are certain consequences for taking that course. In my view, when the process of using the financial envelope and multi-annual budgeting is developed, that autonomy should exist within Departments but we are still in the early days of the process.

Will the traditional Vote for remuneration be gone in future Estimates? It is Vote 45.

Yes, it will be gone.

When? Next year?

It is our aim that by 1999 that Vote will be gone. By then we should be in a stronger position to have this system up and running in a way which embodies the flexibility to which the Deputy refers and with which I agree. If a country is to be competitive, its public service as well as other sectors must be competitive and control its expenditure.

I am still not clear about how this will work, particularly the new arrangements for public service pay and the 2 per cent. Has the Minister simply added 2 per cent in relation to all outstanding cases or has he taken 2 per cent of the total pay bill and told individual line Departments they have a potential maximum of 2 per cent and if they save some of it, they can use it for their own benefit or they can carry it over to next year? What exactly is being done? How has the Minister arrived at the figure? Is it 2 per cent of the total pay bill of the maximum number of people who might be affected?

It is 2 per cent of the total pay bill. The 2 per cent local bargaining agreement will be within the individual departmental Votes and negotiations with unions form part of that payment. Deputy McDowell and Deputy Noonan are wondering if, in the context of reducing numbers or for whatever reason, there is flexibility in the totality of that Vote for more or less. That responsibility lies within the Department, so long as it does not exceed the total moneys allocated.

It does not lie there at present.

It does not but by 1999 it is expected that it will.

Therefore, this comes into play next year and does not apply currently, for example, to the Garda Síochána? The Minister is not telling the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform that it can negotiate within the framework of 2 per cent and, as long as it does not cost more than that, the Minister does not want to hear any more about it from the Department?

No, but a relationship exists between the grades within the Civil Service and one cannot start to break down the different grades. There is a grade figure and a person on a certain grade, regardless of the Department in which they work, will obviously adhere to the same grade.

Are we looking at next year and after that?

If this is to work it will involve a significant change in the culture of the way things have been done. It will be difficult for the Minister for Finance and the Department to indicate to line Departments that they can negotiate without interference. I would like to see that happen.

It also poses questions for the social partners and those unions within the Civil Service structure. The Government or the Minister cannot decide these matters alone. We have moved a good way through that process and as we continue through the SMI, which is gathering momentum, more options open up. If it is to work there must be flexibility in the system.

With regard to subhead L, I note that the subhead for Community Support Framework technical assistance has increased by 280 per cent. We will meet shortly with the Minister for Finance to discuss Structural Funds. What work do those employed in the CSF technical assistance area carry out? Why has the amount increased by so much?

It relates to the management of the programmes and accounting for them. It is a mechanism to relate to the EU.

Has that been happening over the past ten years with the first programme?

It has. However, there is more accountability in the system than heretofore. We have been asked by the EU to show it in our own budget and the origin of the funding has been allocated to the Department of Finance. As I said, 75 per cent of that is recouped. The large increase is because it must be drawn down in 1998.

Subhead M deals with determination committees. The select committee has had a number of meetings over the last two months with regard to the supervision of financial institutions. What is the relationship between the determination committees and the Central Bank?

I introduced the Investor Compensation Bill, 1998, in the Seanad yesterday. The Minister appointed a committee examining the consequences of recent events on the financial markets and it hopes to report in the next few weeks. The range of legislation to protect the financial markets in Ireland is second to none. It is important with the IFSC and Ireland's position that we have in place the necessary expertise and legislative framework. This is an ongoing development.

What is the link with the Central Bank?

The Central Bank is the supervisory authority.

Has it any relationship with these committees?

The Stock Exchange Act, 1995, and the Investment Intermediaries Act, 1995, provide for the establishment of panels from which committees will be appointed ad hoc to determine whether there has been a breach by the stock exchange. The Central Bank is the main supervisory authority and those committees report to it on an ad hoc basis, where and when needed to be appointed for investigations to take place.

Are the reports confidential? If not, is it possible for the committee to have copies of them?

I will bring that to the attention of the Minister. My attitude is that if there is not specifically sensitive confidential commercial information in them they should be available, particularly in line with freedom of information.

Subhead R deals with the claims management agency. I understand the heads of a Bill have been agreed. Will the money be spent this year?

The drafting of the heads of a Bill is proceeding and it is hoped to bring proposals before the Government in the near future. A provision of £200,000 has been included in subhead R for the departmental Estimate in respect of the establishment of the proposed State claims management agency. It is an estimate of initial funding requirements to enable the agency to get off the ground this year, based on the assumption that legislation for this purpose would be enacted before the year is out.

Will it happen before the end of this year?

Knowing the legislative process and the pressures on the parliamentary draftsman, there is much legislation which we are anxious to deal with. The drafting of the heads of the Bill is proceeding. I would guess it will be the end of the year or early next year - that is just my assessment based on the volume of legislation we are trying to get through.

A Deputy

Has this any application in the Army deafness cases?

What is the total number of employees in the Revenue Commissioners? Is the increase in the Vote simply wages, salaries and pensions increases or is there an increase in the staff numbers?

About £4.5 million is an additional increase in salaries and wages and the balance of over £5 million was for computer technology in the Department. It was not for an increase in staff. The staff number for 1997 was 6,024. There is a slight increase to 6,079.

Under subhead A5, office machinery and other office supplies, there seems to be an increase of about £5 million. That is about 50 per cent of the total increase.

I referred to that at length in my address when I spoke about the integrated tax process.

If there are no further questions on Vote 9 we will take questions on any of the other Votes.

With regard to Vote 15 for the Valuation Office and the Ordnance Survey. is there legislation related to these services in the pipeline? If so, what are its cost implications? Vote 16, on the Civil Service Commission, includes the Estimates for the Civil Service Commission and the Local Appointments Commission. I suggest that the Vote for the Local Appointments Commission should come within the Estimate for the Department of the Environment and Local Government. A large number of appointments by the Civil Service Commission in the next year will relate to the recruitment of between 600 and 700 additional prison officers as a result of the provision of extra prison places. Such a large single item should be shown in the Vote of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Costs should relate to the actual Department in which they occur rather than be shown in the Estimate of the Department of Finance. I give these two examples.

I take both Deputy Fleming's points. I am responsible for the valuation Bill. An enormous amount of work has been done on that. It has gone to Government and may be already with the draftsmen. It is a detailed and extensive Bill and has been discussed with various Departments over the last six months. I hope it will be introduced early next year.

The centralisation of appointments saves costs and means that the expertise necessary to make appointments can be centralised. It is not appropriate to have costs included in Departments' votes because the independence of the Civil Service and Local Appointments Commissions would be affected. The present method appears to be satisfactory.

A related question was discussed in the Dáil last week. The procedure for appointing some staff to local authorities was being changed so that they could be recruited directly by the local authority. One of the reasons cited by the Minister for the change was the backlog in the commission and the delay in making appointments centrally. He felt it was more appropriate to make appointments at local level. That is what prompted my suggestion.

Deputy Fleming may have a valid point. I have not discussed this matter with the Minister for the Environment and Local Government. The issue can be looked at if a necessity for it arises. We want efficiency and the maximum flexibility in business units whether they are national or local.

The Minister of State gave commitments on several occasions to legislate to expand the remit of the Ombudsman. That will require extra resources in the Ombudman's office. Is the Minister of state making the financial provision for the extra remit in the 1998 Estimate, does he intend making that provision by way of a Supplementary Estimate or has the timetable for the legislation been put back?

No. I am also responsible for that Bill, on which much work has been completed. It is unlikely to be ready for publication before the end of this year or even early next year. I have had a further look at some of the possibilities for the Ombudsman's office and have made some recommendations.

There is no additional financial provision for the Ombudsman's office? It will be an issue for next year's Estimate? There will be no Supplementary Estimate for the Ombudsman's office?

I will make sure the Ombudsman has the resources he needs. If the remit included in the new Bill is to be acted on, there will be cost implications.

Deputy Noonan's reference to Supplementary Estimates prompts me to ask if we are likely to be faced with Supplementary Estimates before the summer recess.

Not that I am aware of. The only one I signalled was on allowances for Deputies. There will be a Supplementary Estimate for that.

Can the Minister of State say something about the Vote for the secret service? I anticipate he will say no, but I ask the question anyway. Why is this Vote included in the Department of Finance?

We are precluded from discussing that matter.

Why? Can the Minister of State at least tell us why it is included in the Department of Finance Vote?

The Secret Service Vote refers to the Garda Síochána and the Revenue Commission. Historically, more money went to Revenue than to the Garda. That is why the Vote is included in the Department of Finance Estimate.

I know there is a mechanism by which the Secret Service should be accountable for its budget. Does that mechanism work? If we cannot discuss the details of the Estimate for the Secret Service, the Minister may tell us how that mechanism should work.

I cannot. It is important to make the point that the Comptroller and Auditor General is satisfied.

That is what I meant. Clearly, this is a small Estimate. We should not get excited about it. I do not accept, in principle, that we should have no control or information.

There is accountability. The Comptroller and Auditor General is satisfied with the Estimate.

As a new member of the Committee, are Estimates for a current year usually discussed half way through the year? Discussing Estimates for a current year half way through that year is a mere academic exercise.

This is a result of the budget timetable. This process has improved dramatically in recent years. The advent of the committee system has contributed to that improvement. We will continue to adjust the timeframe for Estimates to synchronise with real time. In fairness to officials, many changes have been made and we hope to make more.

We are not entirely clear about how the system will work in view of the new budget timetabling. Last year it was intended that the whole process would start before the summer and continue during the summer dealing with bilaterals with Departments. Much of that did not happen because the election intervened. Does the Minister of State know how the committee will feed into this year's timetable? The secretariat recently circulated a letter from an interested party to committee members which referred to our possible role in pre-budget hearings.

The process is already under way. The National Prices Commission is already being discussed with the various Departments. As Deputy McDowell rightly says the Estimate process will be worked on during the summer. This did not happen last year, for obvious reasons, but we are on track to do so this year. A difficulty always arises from the Minister for Finance's involvement in the passage of the Finance Bill. The discussions referred to are already taking place and the intention is that the Estimates process will take place over the summer as was originally intended.

Does the Minister intend to operate a present and envelope system for expenditure generally this year?

Yes. We may not achieve all our objectives this year. Our target date for including all issues is 1999. It is the intention that the financial envelopes will be in place and that the process will be fully operational by 1999.

Not this year. The system envisaged that Departments would be told there is an envelope within which they must work and they must produce plans within that envelope. Will that happen this year?

The concept of financial envelopes and multi-annual budgeting is being put in place.

The Minister means no.

It probably will not be fully operational.

To what extent will it be operational?

It is already in place. Discussions are taking place with the Department of Finance at the moment.

To what extent are Departments being told this year that they have a certain budget available to them and that they should produce their plans within that budget?

It will be for 1999.

Vote 11, Subhead A2, relates to travelling and subsistence expenditure at home and abroad. Does the State Laboratory work for other countries in the EU from which expenses may be recoupable?

They were recouped in the case of the EU, but not for other specific countries.

It works for other countries in Europe and those expenses are recoupable?

Will you clarify the position regarding self-assessment?

Does it relate to policy?

As to what will happen this year regarding self-assessment.

This does not come under this Vote.

Are you providing any extra money to cover the changes in the proposed self-assessment?

The Deputy will be aware that there are ongoing changes. I have outlined the increases in the budget for the Office of the Revenue Commissioners, where the increases are coming from and why they are specific to that Department. There are no changes other than those I have outlined which relate to computer technology, additional costs for staff and salary increases.

Will the changes proposed by the Minister take place this year?

The changes introduced by the Minister in the Finance Bill will take place as set out in the timeframe.

Must the returns be made in November?

The commencement date set down by the Minister subsequent to the Finance Bill will come into effect this year. Discussions between the Minister, the accountants and the Institute of Taxation are ongoing and he has not as yet included the commencement date. However, the intention is as outlined in the budget speech that these changes will come into effect.

As a result of the changes will there be additional random audits that will cost extra money?

The process of random audits in place by the Revenue Commissioners is a matter for them. I am sure they will continue to do whatever is necessary in the context of these random audits.

As a result of the changes wRegarding the changes, there are ongoing discussions between the Minister, accountants and the Institute of Taxation?

Regarding the commencement date.

So it is not clarified as yet?

No, but I do not want to give the impression that there is a change from the intention as set down by the Minister. It is simply a question of how the mechanisms will work in making this effective.

The year is moving on and people are getting concerned. If the date is brought forward to November preparations must be made now.

The commencement date has not yet been set down by the Minister. Obviously it will be done so as to ensure it works. That is why the discussions are taking place with accountants and the Institute of Taxation. It was not the intention to cause serious disruption in the context of how the system works. When the discussions are concluded the Minister will announce a commencement date that everyone can sign up to.

I want to revert back to the State Laboratory Vote. You mentioned the State Laboratory works for other countries in the EU.

It is just for the EU itself.

Does it cost the State much?

The expenses are recouped within the EU.

As I understand it, this time next year tax bills can be made in euro currency. Are there additional costs involved in providing a dual system of payment? I attended a lecture in connection with euro changeover and one of the points made was that computer technology should have a symbol for the euro. Are there administrative costs involved or are plans in place to allow people to pay tax bills in euro currency?

These will be largely IT costs, but many of the costs will be picked up by the integrated tax process. There will be additional costs of approximately £1 million for forms in dealing with multi-national clients.

Vote 10: Office of Public Works.

Vote 44: Flood Relief.

Before dealing with the heads of expenditure within the Estimate, I would like to refer briefly to current developments within the Office of Public Works.

In line with the Government's strategic management initiative we have established six business units - architectural services, engineering services, project management, property management and property maintenance and procurement - which correspond with the principal areas of activity in the office. The objective is to adapt commercial private sector approaches and procedures to the operations of the office and, in particular, to enhance customer service, provide a clear focus on outputs and value for money and to identify possible new areas of business activity. I am totally committed to ensuring that the Office of Public Works will apply more commercial principles to its activities. We are not shy of measuring how we are doing and comparing this to best practice elsewhere. We are doing this through benchmarking, preparation of commercial accounts and the pursuit of ISO accreditation. One of the business units - the architectural practice - has already been able to demonstrate, with the use of up-to-date information systems, that the services its provides are cost-effective and competitive when benchmarked with similar services provided by the private sector.

Our current remit is to act as the Government's principal agent for the provision and maintenance of buildings required by the State. Accommodation requirements are met through an integrated programme of building, refurbishment, purchasing or renting premises. We manage the State property portfolio of approximately 11 million square feet of which approximately 3.5 million square feet is leased. We manage the Dublin Castle complex, including the conference centre, and provide a range of engineering services, in particular, the design and execution of local flood relief schemes. Our engineering services are also responsible for the maintenance of completed arterial drainage schemes. Through the Government Supplies Agency we provide a central procurement function for Government in relation to certain supplies and services.

I will now turn to main areas of expenditure proposed for Vote 10. The total amount being sought is £114,237,000 which represents an 8 per cent increase on the 1997 outturn. A sum of £89.602 million is sought for the accommodation programme. At £39 million, the building programme is the largest element of the accommodation programme. Examples of major projects being undertaken this year include expenditure of £6.5 million for the Garda building programme, including the provision of new stations at Store Street and Blanchardstown. We also expect to spend some £7.5 million on a building programme on behalf of the Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs in 1998. Office rationalisation and the cultural institutions are each expected to account for approximately £4.5 million. The Houses of the Oireachtas development will require £3 million this year. We will continue in 1998 with our disabled access programme with expenditure of £1 million. Two notable projects in this regard being undertaken this year are the headquarters buildings of the Departments Enterprise, Trade and Employment and Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Within the overall accommodation programme £31.4 million is sought for rent and rates.

I mentioned already that the Office of Public Works manages some 11 million square feet of office accommodation of which approximately 32 per cent is leased. In the present buoyant property market the cost of rented accommodation has increased by an average of 10 per cent annually in Dublin. In view of increasing rental costs it is necessary to monitor closely expenditure in this area. Office of Public Works rental payments for Dublin accommodation are consistently below the average rate per square foot paid by the non-State sector. We seek to maintain a balance between owned and rented accommodation. Rented accommodation gives a flexibility to respond quickly to urgent requirements for space, as in the case of various tribunals of inquiry and the expansion of the Ombudsman's office, etc. In this context, we are considering reinstituting a Dublin office building programme to meet major requirements which will arise over the next few years.

The second programme in terms of financial importance is the drainage and engineering works programme for which £12.365 million is sought. This programme comprises arterial drainage maintenance and the various flood relief schemes. A sum of £5.638 million is being sought for arterial drainage maintenance. The Office of Public Works has commissioned a major external expert study measuring the return on investment in the arterial drainage maintenance programme. The report is expected to be available within three months and will form the basis of a policy review which will be initiated at that time. The major element of the engineering programme in terms of cost is the flood relief programme.

Members will be interested to hear the position in relation to the flooding which occurred in south Galway some years ago. The report on the south Galway flood study by consulting engineers, Jennings O'Donovan Southern Water Global, has now been circulated. Extending to three volumes, it is an extremely complex and extensive publication containing an enormous amount of technical data. The study is thought to be the largest interdisciplinary research study of a karstic environment ever undertaken anywhere in the world. The analyses and interpretations in the study are based on two years detailed investigation and observation of the Gort-Ardrahan area in south Galway. The study indicates a number of steps which should be taken to minimise flood damage in the area in the future. These include the use of planning and development controls to locate buildings away from potential flood plains and, indeed, road modification. These issues come within the remit of the local authorities.

The principal engineering solutions the consultants considered for the area were improving the facility for water to get to the coast from the Caherglassaun area, holding back water upstream of the major flooded areas on the principal water courses and diverting water upstream of the major flooded areas from the principal water courses. However, none of the engineering solutions considered were economical based on a cost-benefit analysis which involved a comparison of the benefits which would be gained fromthe flood relief measures with the costsof implementing and maintaining thosemeasures.

Neither do any of the proposed engineering solutions satisfy conditions for protecting the environment. The environmental aspects of the study are extremely important. The wetlands of the study area consist of a range of turloughs, marshes and lakes unmatched anywhere else in Ireland or in the world. They include a remarkable selection of plant species and communities, many specialised to the habitat and rare elsewhere in Ireland. Since most of the flood relief measures are not economically justified and, therefore, may not proceed, it is recommended that steps be taken to minimise flood damage costs in future. The worst affected properties have been abandoned under the Office of Public Works relocation scheme and road flooding can be greatly reduced by limited road protection works. It is also essential that any future applications for planning permission in the study area be referred by the relevant planning authority to the Office of Public Works so that their location can be checked against the wealth of flood data accumulated by Office of Public Works. This will ensure that future dwellings or other buildings are not located in areas susceptible to severe flooding.

The position with regard to other local flood relief schemes is that works were completed at Six Mile Bridge, Ardrahan and Bridge Street, Gort in 1997. The following schemes are currently under way or will commence in 1998 - Duleek, Mulcair and possibly the Bandon River in Dunmanway. Expenditure on works is expected to reach £4 million in 1998 compared to £2.5 million in 1997.

Finally in relation to Vote 10.1, administration costs of the Office of Public Works are expected to be £17.024 million, an increase of 1 per cent on the 1997 outturn and are 13.6 per cent of the total Vote.

As regards Vote 44, flood relief, as a once off measure in recognition of the devastation caused by the effects of the flooding in 1995 the Government provided a sum of £3.25 million towards a home relocation scheme by way of humanitarian aid for the victims of flooding. The schemes would enable persons or families whose houses had been damaged beyond reasonable cost of repair or whose houses suffered long-term flooding over three weeks to be assisted. This fund is being disbursed by the Office of Public Works. Expenditure up to 1997 was £453,184 and the amount sought is £256,000 for the home relocation scheme.

I thank Members for their attention and I shall be pleased to hear the views of the Committee and will do my best to answer any questions Members may wish to raise.

I thank the Minister for his very comprehensive outline. I am sure he would agree with me that a few years ago the Estimate for the Office of Public Works was much broader and involved much more responsibility. Nevertheless it is very important. I would like to proceed by way of questions on matters that were not mentioned in the Minister's contribution today.

There has been considerable progress as regards access on buildings constructed since 1992, but access has not been provided to many older buildings. I refer especially to Garda stations and some social welfare offices which the public have occasion to visit. I understand that of the 700 plus Garda stations, very few allow access for wheelchair users and other people with disabilities. Has the Minister's office carried out an audit to determine where facilities for disabled people should be provided and at what cost? Has the Minister considered access facilities for people with sight and hearing difficulties?

It would be appropriate to expand on plans for the Oireachtas. What type of facilities will be provided for Members? Will they include recreational facilities and so on?

I would appreciate an update on the field catchment drainage survey that is ongoing on the Cashen River in Kerry. Following the publication of a preliminary report last September, could the Minister advised us as to the status of the second report due to be published? I realise it would be unfair to ask the Minister to make financial provision for next year until we have received the report, but I would like to remind him that the problem is accelerating at an alarming rate in the field catchment area. Siltation is continuing to the extent that when the tide is out there is no channel there, it is totally silted over. Farmland is covered with water during the winter, resulting in farmers losing considerable sums of money. They have to winter their cattle indoors and cannot allow them out until very late in the year. Even during the summer if the weather gets bad they have the same problem. It is quite alarming and action will need to be taken in the immediate years ahead.

I understand an archaeological dig to uncover an early mediaeval site, will hinder drainage plans for the Mulcair River. Could the Minister confirm that when the archaeological dig is over, the work will continue on the Mulcair River?

Could the Minister also expand on the staffing complement available, the number of staff who has been transferred to the Department of Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands and the resulting loss of expertise? Is the Minister satisfied that there is a sufficient amount of staff available to carry out his brief?

I thank the Deputy for the detailed questions asked. In general on disabled access, all new projects include full disabled access. That needs to be repeated. Any new projects certainly would embody all that we would desire in terms of disabled access. That is as it should be. The Deputy specifically referred to Garda stations. While there is not a specific audit, many of the Garda stations are old and out of date and insufficient to meet the Garda requirements. We have a very substantial Garda building programme in place. That will continue over time and as we move towards the completion of that large programme many of the existing problems will be overcome. We spend money all the time on existing properties, constantly upgrading them and ensuring that there is disabled access. Not every property, for architectural reasons and listed reasons, lends itself to easy solutions in the context of providing disabled access, but in Iveagh House last year we achieved disabled access. I said in my statement that we will deal with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform in the current year as well. The sum of £1 million is being provided for those buildings. It is a very important aspect of our work. If we are refurbishing an old building the top item on the agenda is the provision of disabled access facilities. There are some buildings we might not be working on but we are still trying to improve access. I have given a couple of examples of that. It will take time to go through the process, which has been ongoing for a couple of years, to get a 100 per cent level of disabled access to the buildings for which we are responsible. That is the intention.

I do not agree with the Deputy that there have been changes over the past few years to the office with the result that its responsibilities may not be as they were. Some of the matters that the office handled in the past may have been transferred to other Departments. However, as outlined in my statement and in the annual report, the office is definitively expanding its responsibilities on behalf of the State. I hope we will be seen to have been running ahead of the SMI in terms of our approach to ensuring that we embody standards that can match those anywhere. We are involved in handling EU-wide contracts for buildings and projects. We take our responsibility on behalf of the State seriously and we are trying to maximise those areas.

The Oireachtas building programme will get under way shortly. We will be on site this summer. Contracts are being prepared - the tenders are already in for the first contract. All the targets I set with the commissioner last year with regard to the timeframe have been met. We have gone through the planning process and there were no objections, a remarkable achievement. I compliment the staff involved because they spent a lot of time with the Members, the representatives of the staff and with many interested bodies who consider the precincts of Leinster House to be important as part of the State's architectural heritage. The new building should accommodate all modern requirements but not intrude in the architectural landscape. A measure of that success is to have completed the planning process without objections, which is due to the level of information given and discussions engaged in.

The project will cost in the region of £25 million. Up to 110 Members and their staff will be accommodated. The building will comprise committee rooms, party rooms, procedural rooms and press facilities. Work is scheduled to commence in July and the building is intended to be ready for full occupation in 2000. The building will also provide much better public access facilities for Members who have to meet groups or individuals and for visitors. The presentation of the building will enhance greatly the precincts of the Oireachtas. The design is very exciting. We had lengthy discussions with the Committees on Procedure and Privileges of both Houses. It is an exciting project which is long overdue.

What about the recreational facilities?

There will be a fitness room for Members. It will be functional and up to modern standards. The question of the provision of crèche facilities in the precincts is ongoing. We have considered the provision of crèche facilities in a way which will not be intrusive into the business of the House but which will be proper for Members wishing to leave their children and provide ease of access. We have almost completed the process and we are considering one or two locations that will provide the elements required in the context of the precincts. I am determined that the crèche will be in place in tandem with the new building.

The Deputy mentioned the Feale/Cashen scheme. The phase one report is already in place. Phase two will be completed in the autumn and it involves computer modelling of the estuary. We are aware of the continuing difficulties and are continuing to seek interim solutions as the study progresses. In general terms, we must get the studies right. It is not good enough to adopt a slap dash approach. We need cycles in the climate calendar to carry out the full assessments. We cannot do it simply from January to March, but must assess the various seasonal effects because there are huge ecological implications. The Cashen scheme is on our agenda. It is being worked upon and as soon as we have the report we will make it available to those involved. I hope we will arrive at a suitable solution.

With regard to Cappamore, the Deputy is correct that when the works commenced an archaeological site was found unexpectedly. The consequences are being examined. The timeframe for the completion of the scheme which I outlined is not affected. We are considering alternative methods of releasing the problems with the water flows. I am confident that a satisfactory solution will be found and that we will proceed as expected.

About one third of the total staff were transferred to the Department of Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands, but relevant expertise was retained in Office of Public Works. We will recruit significant numbers of staff, including architects and engineers. In all 13 competitions have been advertised already. We are satisfied that staff numbers are adequate to carry out our brief. Some changes may have brought about the splitting of some disciplines between the two organisations and that might not be the best solution. I am examining some of those issues at present. We want to ensure that the maximum benefit from a staffing, career and cost efficiency perspective is obtained. We need time to examine how it is working before formulating a definitive position. I am looking at it and I shall draw some conclusions in the near future.

I thank the Minister of State for the briefing document. I note a sum of £169,000 is provided for wages and allowances for up to 20 staff at Áras an Uachtaráin. There is a separate Vote for the President's establishment. Why is there a second Estimate under the Office of Public Works Votes? To what does the amount relate and how does it relate to Vote 1? Why are they not combined? Is it the Zoological Society or Office of Public Works who hold the freehold title for the zoo? I visited the zoo on the last bank holiday Monday. While it was great to see so many animals, I felt they required at least five times the space they have.

That is why the Deputy should come to Carrigtohill.

From my recollection there were two elephants, one hippopotamus, two camels and two or three giraffes on approximately 1.5 acres of land. On an average farm one cow requires one acre of grass a year and a horse needs a couple of acres, yet these massive animals were confined to 1.5 acres and are totally docile. They need to be moved to a larger premises. I am concerned about the space available for the animals.

I am pleased with the development of new buildings, specifically the new Government decentralised offices and the midlands prison in Portlaoise town, the contract for which is finance to design and build. Will the freehold title of the prison revert to the State at the end of the leasing period from the contractor? At what point will that take place? Does Office of Public Works have a target in its portfolio of how much property it would like to own and rent and howmuch property it wishes to have on a purchase basis?

In relation to the maintenance costs for the prestigious buildings - Áras an Uachtarán, the National Museum, the National Gallery and Dublin Castle - which is undertaken internally by Office of Public Works, has a cost analysis been done of the cost to Office of Public Works versus subcontracting to the private sector? Has such a comparison been made? I would be grateful if information on item F3, rent and rates, could be forwarded to me in due course. How much of the £31 million is paid by Office of Public Works in rates to various local authorities? In particular, are those figures agreed with the Valuation Office, which is under the remit of Office of Public Works, on a building by building and property by property basis or is the overall Office of Public Works State portfolio taken and subdivided at national level which I understand is done by some semi-State bodies. For instance, all Telecom Éireann's buildings are valuated by the Valuation Office and it has have a formula for paying each local authority. Does that figure relate to the national breakdown of the rates bill? I would also like figures on the amount paid in rates by Office of Public Works to each local authority. I do not expect them to be available now, but I would be grateful to receive them at a future date.

I am glad Deputy Fleming has studied the Office of Public Works annual reports and is familiar with the office. We take that as a compliment. The Deputy has raised many questions which I will try to answer.

In relation to presidential staff, the subhead covers the cost of wages and allowances for staff of the Oireachtas which incorporates a large proportion of part-time staff. Ten of the 20 staff are on-call household assistants. Four more are deemed part-time staff, two of whom are household assistants as full time staff. When one balances it in that way it explains the figure. The high level of 1997 expenditure was due to the cost of arrears under Partnership 2000 and redundancy costs which arose on the changeover of the President.

The Deputy raised another issue close to my heart. He rightly identified many important issues about the zoo. I have taken a keen interest in it and I think I was the first Minister to hold a meeting with the board of the zoo. A major development programme has been put in place for the zoo. In 1994 the Government approved £15 million to be spent over a ten year period at the zoo. We have accelerated that programme. I felt it was necessary to do so and the Government agreed. By the end of this year £8.5 million will have been spent on the zoo. We opened the Fringes of the Arctic element within the zoo and it has been fairly successful. On that occasion I spoke with a visiting expert from America who had toured the world looking at such facilities and she indicated that what she saw here was the best she had come across. The intention is to replicate this. The Deputy has correctly raised a question about the larger animals, like elephants. The African planes project, which is under way, will embody the required space. We are increasing the land holding within the zoo for this purpose. We have heard many positive views about going in that direction. When the programme has been completed fully the zoo will have been transformed. The old idea of a zoo has rightly been changed. What was available previously is not sufficient - animals must have proper facilities for husbandry etc. That is what we hope to achieve atDublin Zoo. I have no doubt, in the context of the programme we are undertaking, that will be done.

With regard to the title of properties owned by the zoo, it is a private company. Nevertheless the relationship with the State is a very close one. We keep a hands-on approach as far as possible, especially in terms of its development. Much work is being undertaken - the fringes of the Arctic, the World of Primates, the World of Cats, the African Planes, new restaurants and new buildings have been developed. A very large programme is under way and I hope it will meet the requirements of the animals and the public. It is a fantastic facility and I think it will embody all one would want in a modern facility for viewing animals not available in our normal habitat.

The Deputy asked for a breakdown of the figures for rents and rates. I do not have that information with me, but we will forward it to him.

We are fairly close to the mix we wish to have in respect of owned and rented property - about 70 per cent owned to 30 per cent rented. One of the reasons we need that sort of portfolio of rented accommodation is that it gives us the flexibility for urgent situations that arise from time to time in the programme. It makes us an important player and therefore able to control our costs within the marketplace.

The value of State owned land and buildings is almost £1 billion based on a property portfolio of approximately 6.85 million square feet, of which office accommodation will be five million, Garda stations, 1.6 million and employment exchanges, 0.25 million. Have I missed anything?

I asked about Government offices and in particular Portlaoise Prison and the finance, design and build contracts which will be leased back by the State. At what point does the freehold title revert to the State?

It varies. In some cases it can be up to 25 years. The Deputy also raised another point to which I would like to respond. In my experience Deputies, Senators and others think the Office of Public Works carries out work almost exclusively from a public service point of view and that all work is carried out within the Department. This is not the case. On a daily basis on almost every project the Office of Public Works interacts with the private sector. The award winning work of the Office of Public Works, such as the Céide Fields centre which won a RAIA award and the work in the Botanic Gardens which won the Europa Nostra gold medal, only five of which are awarded in Europe, has been carried out in association with the private sector. These building and architectural projects always include an interaction with the private sector, something I welcome.

On the Finance Vote I spoke of the interaction between the best practice and the best and brightest in the public sector, of which there are many in the Office of Public Works and of whom I am proud, and the private sector resulting in the best possible results being achieved. This happens in our engineering, property and architectural services. The quality of project management by the Office of Public Works is probably second to none, something recognised by many in the private sector.

This year's annual report - Members can note the quality of production - outlines the issues the Office of Public Works is involved in. It is the first Department ever to produce accounts for a business unit. It is almost unheard of for a public body to do this and reflects the determination of the Office of Public Works which wants to be capable of dealing with all these issues on behalf of the State. It cannot be said that the Office of Public Works is immune to the commercial world. It is a leader in its interaction with the commercial and private sectors.

I wish to refer to subhead E concerning new works, alterations and additions, specifically in the context of Garda stations. Everybody is aware that there are substandard stations but I am interested in a couple in my constituency. How much of the Estimate refers to the refurbishment and building of new Garda stations? Is there a priority list for those works? Is work on the planned new Garda stations for Cobh and Fermoy likely to commence in the near future? I know plans for the Cobh station are well advanced. Recently there was an article in the paper concerning the station in Carrigtwohill where I live. The station is rented from a local person and I would like the Minister to check the position regarding its upkeep. I do not expect the Minister to have the information to hand but perhaps he will send it to me in due course.

Subhead F1 concerns maintenance and supplies. The second paragraph states that "this subhead also covers the cost of actual maintenance works to (a) unallocated (vacant) State accommodation". Will the Minister tell us the number of buildings which are vacant, the cost of maintaining them, where they are located and whether there are plans to sell them? In the context of subhead F3, which is related, are rents being paid on any of the unallocated buildings? Subhead F4 concerns fuel, electricity, water, cleaning materials, etc., relating to unallocated buildings.

I congratulate the person who included the forecast for 1998 by saying that while costs under subhead F4 amount of £326 million in 1997 the Estimate for 1998 is £515 million.

The priority list for Garda stations is determined by the Garda in conjunction with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and not by me or my officials in the Department of Finance. We carry out the programme based on the assessment provided. The process of acquiring sites at Mayorstone, Blanchardstown, Cobh and Thomastown is expected to be completed in 1998. We then expect to be in a position to proceed with the building programme in conjunction with the view of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. The Deputy should talk to the Minister concerning his interest in Cobh, but we will be happy to carry out the work if he wants us to do so. There is a major programme of new Garda stations, including Blanchardstown, Waterford, Lixnaw, Kilmacow and Terenure, with other major developments planned for Thurles Garda station. There is an ongoing programme of development as I already outlined.

Approximately 2.2 per cent of the property portfolio is classified as vacant but only about 0.65 per cent is available for allocation, the difference being explained by buildings under refurbishment. Strictly, therefore, there are no vacant properties. This is relevant to what I said earlier regarding maximising our property base and minimising costs. We have some of the best experts in the country in the Office of Public Works and the fact that they are able to achieve such a position is a great compliment to them. I wish many local authorities were able to achieve the same with their property portfolios.

Subhead H4 deals with engineering works. Does Spike Island come under the aegis of the Office of Public Works?

No, it is the responsibility of the Department of Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands. The Vote the chairman is referring to concerns the Tralee ship canal and not Spike Island. The work is being carried out by the Office of Public Works on behalf of the Department of Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands.

Does the Office of Public Works participate in the ongoing work on the jail?

Yes, without question, on behalf of the relevant Department. This is the position regarding all Departments.

When referring to the reduced responsibilities of the Minister's Department I was not suggesting the Department was not very important. In the past I expressed the view in the Dáil that the Office of Public Works should never have been dismantled. Over the years my contact with the Office of Public Works has resulted in positive feedback and absolute co-operation. I compliment it on its partnership approach with a committee in Listowel where a culture and heritage centre is being established. There is a castle on the site and without the partnership with the Office of Public Works work would not have proceeded. It purchased a site from us which enabled us pay for the overall site. We are now working in very close partnership with the Office of Public Works. The Office of Public Works is repairing the castle. Although it has been transferred to the other Department, the work began when the Office of Public Works had responsibility for it. A good project is being provided for Listowel because of the partnership between the Office of Public Works and the local committee, which I acknowledge. There has been a positive attitude and co-operation from the start. The commercial worth of the Office of Public Works was mentioned and I acknowledge that. It has a positive attitude to partnerships with local groups, which is the way forward.

There is confusion but it will probably be cleared up when the responsibilities of the Department of Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands and the Minister's Department are identified. It is important responsibilities are more clearly defined and no doubt the Minister will ensure that happens. The responsibilities of the Department of Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands should also be defined, especially those which it has taken from the Minister's Department. I agree that in time when teething problems have been overcome, there may be responsibilities which have been taken from the Minister's Department which could be given back. Nobody would lose face by so doing.

What matters is that we preserve our heritage irrespective of which Department has responsibility. We must provide a service to ensure the conservation of our heritage. If certain things are not working in a Department, there is no reason they should not be returned to the Office of Public Works. I agree the Office of Public Works has an important function and, as Opposition spokesman in this area, I will do my best to enhance that role and support anything the Minister does in the future as regards the arts and the Office of Public Works.

If the Minister has the information, perhaps he might briefly outline the progress on the Tralee ship canal, which is a major project. Some £1 million was allocated to it. How much money has been spent on it to date and what work remains to be completed?

I do not have the information with me but I will get it for the Deputy.

I notice there is a reduction in the Estimate of 7 per cent over 1997 for the purchase and maintenance of engineering plant and machinery. From observing the type of machinery used in the Feale catchment area, it is probably that which was used when the Feale was drained in 1952 because it looks very antiquated and would not be out of place in one of the Office of Public Works' museums or in an agricultural museum. The machinery has not been replaced for a long time. Perhaps the Minister would comment on that and on whether there are plans to replace machinery throughout the country because there is a need to do so in the Feale catchment area.

I thank the Deputy for his kind words. I was particularly pleased he acknowledged the role of officials, which is often forgotten. These are the people who make things happen. There is a committed team in the Office of Public Works and I am glad the Deputy acknowledged their work.

On the machinery, I am happy to say only a small amount is left to be replaced as we have replaced a huge range of machinery. It was pointed out to me that some of the long reach equipment is old and is being replaced. Six new machines are being added this year, perhaps not specifically to that. Overall, the fleet, so to speak, is more modern than previously. With the type of equipment we utilise, it is important to have an ongoing annual programme of rejuvenation rather than not replace machinery for a few years and then have to replace a load of equipment. That is the approach being taken by the Office of Public Works. We are nearly at a point where some of the machinery to which the Deputy referred - I hope it is not all located in his area - will be replaced.

I thank the chairman, the committee and its staff for the courtesy extended to me and my staff from the Department of Finance and the Office of Public Works. I thank Deputies who made contributions which were worthy of the committee and I was happy to answer questions. If the committee wishes to talk to us about an issue, we are always available to come here.

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