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SELECT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE debate -
Thursday, 11 Jun 1998

Vol. 1 No. 6

Estimates for Public Services, 1998:

Vote 3 - Department of the Taoiseach;

Vote 5 - Central Statistics Office;

Vote 13 - Office of the Attorney General;

Vote 14 - Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions;

Vote 18 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor.

Vice Chairman

On behalf of the Select Committee, I welcome the Taoiseach, his officials and the Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach, Deputy Séamus Brennan, who will deal with Vote 5, Central Statistics Office.

The Chairman, Deputy Michael Ahern, sends his apologies. He is leading a committee delegation to three EU capitals concerning the Joint Committee's review of banking policy.

Today's meeting is to consider the Estimates falling within the remit of the Department of the Taoiseach: Vote 3, Department of the Taoiseach, Vote 5, Central Statistics Office, Vote 13, Office of the Attorney General, Vote 14, Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions and Vote 18, Office of the Chief State Solicitor. The proposed timetable for considering the Estimates has been circulated. It allows for opening statements by the Taoiseach and Opposition spokespersons and then an open discussion by way of a question and answer session. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I thank the Chairman and the committee for receiving the Estimates for the Department of the Taoiseach for 1998. I welcome the opportunity to meet with the committee for a discussion on the work of my Department and the offices under its aegis: the Offices of the Attorney General, the Director of Public Prosecutions, the Chief State Solicitor and the Central Statistics Office. I am accompanied by the Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach and the Chief Whip, Deputy Séamus Brennan, who will deal with matters relating to the Central Statistics Office. While the thrust of the committee's work must necessarily focus on the financial Estimates required by my Department and offices in 1998, it is perhaps worthwhile to advise the committee of the key strategic issues and objectives which will be progressed and funded in 1998.

First, in relation to Northern Ireland, an issue which has dominated my Department during 1998 and for many years before, the Agreement reached at the multi-party negotiations on Good Friday was the culmination of numerous years of effort by many people to consolidate peace and bring to an end 30 years of conflict. I have already paid tribute to all the parties to the Agreement for their dedication and leadership in reaching it. It is timely now in addressing the committee to pay tribute to the Members of the Oireachtas who also made an invaluable contribution over the years, particularly since 1991 when the three stranded talks began.

I pay tribute to my predecessors Charles Haughey, who was Taoiseach when the process started; Deputy Albert Reynolds, who concluded the Downing Street Declaration and made the first historic breakthrough towards ending violence; and Deputy John Bruton, who helped set the parameters and ground rules which started the talks in June 1996. I would also pay tribute to Deputy Spring who, under successive Governments, oversaw the preparation of the Framework Document. The Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Andrews, and the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy O'Donnell, deserve our warmest thanks for the leadership they gave the Irish Government team in the talks, as do the other Ministers and Ministers of State who attended on a regular basis since 1996. I also pay tribute to the officials and advisers of my Department and of the Departments of Foreign Affairs and Justice, Equality and Law Reform for their dedicated service in achieving the Agreement.

The Agreement was a victory for the political process and having it overwhelmingly endorsed by the people of Ireland, north and south, was a vindication of the political and democratic process. Never again can anyone on the island claim any type of legitimacy for the use of violence to achieve political ends. We have now begun the next phase of the process which is the implementation of the Agreement in all its aspects. The Agreement provides that, as soon as possible after elections to the Northern Ireland Assembly, inaugural meetings of the Assembly, the British-Irish Council and the North-South Ministerial Council in their transitional forms will take place. During the transitional period between the elections to the Northern Ireland Assembly and the transfer of power to it, representatives of the Northern Ireland transitional Administration and the Irish Government operating in the North-South Ministerial Council will work to agree by 31 October 1998 areas where co-operation and implementation for mutual benefit will take place.

We have a heavy work schedule ahead but we are determined to ensure that the Agreement works. We know that there will be difficulties and that there are those who will try to frustrate the process but we believe that, by working together, the two Governments and the political parties can realise the Agreement's full potential and bring about the real and substantial change necessary to achieve lasting peace. Implementation arrangements in this jurisdiction are being overseen by an interdepartmental group chaired by the Department of Foreign Affairs and comprising representatives of the Departments of the Taoiseach, Foreign Affairs, Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Attorney General's Office. It will be necessary to obtain the formal approval of the Dáil of the terms of the British-Irish Agreement before the State can agree to be bound by it.

Legislation will be required for the new implementation bodies. Other actions, such as the establishment of the human rights commission, and other measures to strengthen and underpin the constitutional protection of human rights and equal status legislation will be brought before the Oireachtas in due course. Employment equality legislation is before the Oireachtas at the moment. Orders to bring into force by the end of the June the regulations developed by the Independent International Commission and the two Governments to govern the decommissioning of paramilitary weapons will also be necessary. Other areas which may or may not require legislation are being considered by the interdepartmental group. All these actions will receive the priority attention of the Government.

The Dáil already approved the Estimate for the Referendum Commission which dealt with the information campaign on the Agreement and for the printing of the Agreement. While provision of £3 million approximately was made for the operation of the Referendum Commission, it is likely that the cost of the campaign will come to less than £2 million. The cost of printing and distributing the Agreement was approximately £400,000.

Regarding the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation, the last meeting was on 5 December 1997. At that, a number of parties put forward different suggestions about the future activities of the forum. At the conclusion of the meeting it was indicated by the chairperson that the secretary-general of the forum would contact all parties to obtain their suggestions about future activity. In addition to the suggestions made by members, proposals were made in the Dáil, both before and after 5 December, about activities which might be undertaken by or under the aegis of the forum. Proposals were also put directly to the chairperson and to the secretary-general for an early meeting of the co-ordinating committee. In the lead up to the British-Irish Agreement, the secretary-general made contact with the parties to inquire about their views as to the timing and activity of the forum. The predominant view was that having regard to the position in the talks, it would be preferable not to have meetings. Following conclusion of the Agreement and bearing in mind the need to focus energies and resources on implementing it, I believe the best course of action would be to keep the future of the forum under review for the time being.

With regard to the Sailors and Soldiers Land Trust, approximately £1.5 million in respect of this fund was lodged to the Exchequer at the end of February this year. As the committee will be aware, £150,000 of this has been approved for the Journey of Reconciliation Trust Project in Messines. This project is to be completed by 11 November 1998, Armistice Day. A sum of £36,000 has been approved for the University of Liverpool for this year. It is intended to advertise for further projects in the near future and to allocate money from September.

In the area of economic and social policy, my Department has played a leading role in the negotiation and implementation of all partnership agreements since 1987. At present it monitors the implementation of Partnership 2000. It does this at the macro level primarily through convening quarterly review meetings and the production of progress reports while at the micro level it engages in a proactive way to address the special concerns of the social partners which inevitably arise from time to time.

The social partnership process has provided the firm foundation for Ireland's impressive economic and social performance in recent years in terms of economic growth, employment creation, a largely stable industrial relations climate and a more systematic engagement on issues of poverty, social exclusion and equality. Indeed, it can reasonably be claimed that the social partnership process has delivered a more prosperous and, at the same time, a more equitable society in Ireland than any other initiative since the foundation of the State. It is imperative, therefore, that this process, which has achieved so much, be nurtured and strengthened in the years ahead and that it will continue to signpost the way forward for this country into the years of the new millennium and beyond.

With that strategic aim in mind, the Government is determined to maximise the conditions for a successor agreement when the present partnership expires in March 2000. The best way to build such a pathway is through the full implementation of Partnership 2000 and, although only 18 months old, an impressive amount of progress across a range of policy areas has been achieved already. My Department has played a central and proactive role in that regard and it will continue to build on the successes to date.

My Department's role in the area of social inclusion is to ensure that there is an integrated and coherent approach to tackling the problems of social exclusion and marginalisation. Policy on social inclusion is devised within the framework provided by Partnership 2000 and the Government's Action Programme for the Millennium. The establishment of the Cabinet subcommittee on social inclusion, which I chair, reflects the Government's commitment as set out in the Programme for Government to tackle social exclusion.

The subcommittee provides the opportunity to give political leadership in the area of social inclusion and to deal with the relevant issues in a holistic manner. It enables the Government to focus on preventative action in relation to local development issues, the national drugs strategy and the wider national anti-poverty strategy. Collectively, these programmes address issues of discrimination, education, unemployment, disadvantage and deprivation with the subcommittee overseeing and guiding proceedings.

The EU and Exchequer funded Operational Programme for Local Urban and Rural Development aims to combat social exclusion and long-term unemployment in areas of high disadvantage and social marginalisation. A bottom-up approach is taken by the programme through the involvement of local communities in deciding what are their areas' needs. The 38 partnerships work closely with local communities in identifying their needs and making the best use of the resources used to tackle them.

The territorial employment pacts are a pan-European initiative designed by the European Commission to encourage regional and local partnership in tackling long-term unemployment and disadvantage in a cohesive, co-ordinated and integrated manner. This programme has been influenced significantly by the Irish local development experience and my Department co-ordinates the activities of the four Irish pacts which are based in Dublin, Limerick, Westmeath and Dundalk/Drogheda, respectively.

The national drugs strategy team oversees the implementation of the Government's drugs strategy. The local drugs task forces ensure the effective co-ordination of drug programmes and services at local level, involve communities in the development and delivery of locally based strategies to reduce the demand for drugs and focus actions on tackling the problem in the communities where it is most severe.

The national anti-poverty strategy interdepartmental committee, which is co-chaired by my Department, monitors the achievement of the targets set out under the strategy. Its overall priority is to reduce the 9 per cent to 15 per cent of the population identified as being consistently poor to under 5 per cent to 10 per cent over the period of the strategy. It focuses on five key areas which need to be advanced to tackle poverty. These areas are unemployment, income adequacy, educational disadvantage, disadvantaged urban areas and rural poverty.

The Cabinet subcommittee is responsible for allocating the young people's facilities and services fund of £30 million. The purpose of the fund is to develop youth facilities, including sport and recreational facilities, and services in disadvantaged areas where a significant drug problem exists with a view to attracting young people in those areas at risk of becoming involved in drugs into more healthy and productive pursuits. The Cabinet subcommittee recently approved guidelines for the administration of the £20 million funding reserved for the task force areas. Proposals regarding the administration of the remaining £10 million allocated to the fund are currently being developed and will be announced as soon as they are finalised, hopefully within the next few weeks.

The national centre for partnership was established in May 1997 in accordance with Partnership 2000. Partnership 2000 has, as a key objective, the promotion of enterprise in both the private and public sectors. This is crucial for the achievement of sustainable growth. If partnership is successful it must work at the level of each workplace, where management, unions and employees can work in harmony towards commonly agreed objectives.

The aim of the centre is to foster, directly and indirectly, partnership arrangements involving the acceptance of employees as stakeholders, which will secure the competitiveness, viability and prosperity of enterprises and the modernisation of public services. The work of the centre flows from the roles which were identified for it in Partnership 2000. These are promotion of involvement and partnership; monitoring developments; technical assistance and support to organisations engaged in developing involvement and partnership arrangements; dissemination of best practice and training for management, union and staff representatives.

The centre's work programme is being actively pursued with assistance from IBEC, ICTU and other relevant organisations. Making partnership work at the level of the workplace requires effort and commitment from all concerned and the role of the centre in facilitating the process is critical. Translating partnership from a concept to a reality does and will increasingly play a positive central role in workplace arrangements and overall national development.

The Department of the Taoiseach has played a co-ordinating role in developing the International Financial Services Centre since its establishment in 1987. The IFSC clearing house group, chaired by the Secretary General, brings together representatives from the financial services industry, both in Ireland and abroad, as well as the relevant Departments and State agencies. The Department also facilitates a series of working groups which focus on the competitiveness of specific industry sectors.

The IFSC has been a remarkable success, employing more than 4,000 people directly and creating many more spin-off jobs in support industries. The centre has also been a flagship project in the economic and physical rejuvenation of Dublin. The active and dynamic partnership between public and private sectors and the leadership provided by successive Taoisigh have been central to these achievements.

The challenge over the next few years is to build on this success in the context of several changing factors, including the introduction of the new corporation tax regime, plans for the redevelopment of the wider Dublin docklands area and the evolving international business environment, including economic and monetary union. The IFSC clearing house group will try to manage these changing factors in an effective way to sustain the growth of the centre into the new millennium.

Good progress continues to be made under the strategic management initiative, the programme of change in the public service. As set out in "Delivering Better Government", the key objective is the achievement of an excellent service for the Government and the public as customers and clients at all levels, building on the good service provided at present. The preparation of new strategy statements by Departments and offices was a key requirement of the Public Service Management Act, 1997, which came into operation on 1 September last year. The new statements of all Departments and offices under their aegis have now been laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas and are being published.

In addition, the Freedom of Information Act, 1997, came into effect on 21 April last. A considerable effort has been put into preparing to meet the requirements of the Act which will result in major changes in the culture and practices of the Civil Service. Taken with the publication of the strategy statements, a new climate of openness and transparency in the conduct of official business has been created which is unprecedented.

Apart from the new legislation I mentioned, until now most of the effort in the strategic management initiative has been devoted to developing the proposals in the key areas of "Delivering Better Government". This effort has been harnessed through the various working and other groups which were established. Arising from their recommendations, the SMI implementation group, which is driving the change programme in the Civil Service, has prioritised four areas for action this year - human resource management, financial management, information technology and regulatory reform.

On 19 February last, following consultation with the Opposition parties, I announced the establishment of the All-Party Oireachtas Committee on the Strategic Management Initiative. I said then that it was entirely appropriate that the Oireachtas, with which the Civil Service at official level is so deeply engaged, should be more actively involved in the process, particularly at the current stage of implementation. The committee is meeting every second week and is concentrating initially on customer service.

The pursuit of quality customer service is at the heart of the change programme. The quality customer service action plans of Departments and offices, launched towards the end of 1997, are now in operation. A system to monitor and benchmark progress across the Civil Service is currently being drawn up to ensure that the momentum is maintained in this important initiative.

The Estimates for my Department include significant amounts in respect of the McCracken and Moriarty tribunals. Deputies will be aware that the McCracken tribunal has completed its task and reported in 1997. The amount provided in the Estimates for this tribunal is principally to provide for the payment of costs awarded by Mr. Justice McCracken to parties who had appeared before the tribunal. The decision as to costs was handed down in December 1997. To date, only a small number of claims have been received which do not have a high monetary value. It is anticipated that a number of other bills will be lodged shortly, including some which will be substantial. It is considered likely that some of the more substantial claims will go before the High Court on appeal from the Taxing Master and, depending on the issue involved, the Supreme Court.

The Moriarty tribunal which was established in September 1997 is, I understand, continuing its preliminary investigative work. Deputies will be aware that the legal challenge to the tribunal by Mr. Charles Haughey and others was unsuccessful in the High Court recently. I understand that this decision has now been appealed to the Supreme Court by Mr. Haughey and that the appeal will be heard on 23 June. It is my understanding that public hearings of the tribunal will not commence until the Supreme Court has adjudicated on the appeal.

The Estimate for my Department in 1998 additionally will provide funding for the NESC, NESF, the Information Society Commission and the All Party Committee on the Constitution and the 1798 commemoration initiatives.

The Estimate for the Office of the Attorney General shows an increase over the 1997 outturn of £2.3 million approximately. This is accounted for by an expected increase in staff numbers in 1998 due to the filling of a number of vacant posts. There is a new subhead in this Vote also - General Law Expenses - whose allocation of £300,000 is primarily to meet the costs of the swimming inquiry held by Mr. Roderick Murphy. There is also an increase to £610,000 in the provision for IT consultancy to meet the cost of the first phase of a project to make available all statutes in CD-ROM format.

The 1998 Estimate for the Office of the Chief State Solicitor shows an increase over the 1997 outturn of £1.9 million approximately. This is accounted for in part by expenditure on fitting out the Office's newly refurbished premises at Osmond House. There has been an increase in staff numbers and also in the amount of fees paid to counsel. The volume of Army hearing loss claims has had a significant impact on the work of the Office and this is reflected in the Estimate.

The bulk - 83 per cent - of the expenditure in the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions is on fees paid to counsel who appear for the DPP. The increase in the provision is as a result of a review of the fee structures applying to criminal cases.

I will be happy to provide any further information which the committee may require in addition to the briefing papers which have already been furnished to the committee.

The Central Statistics Office is responsible for the collection, processing and dissemination of official statistics on economic and social conditions in Ireland. While the main focus is on the statistical requirements of Government, there is a very wide community of users nationally, such as the social partners, various public bodies, business interests, universities, research institutes and the general public. There is also a significant international dimension to the work of the Office, particularly in relation to statutory obligations arising increasingly out of our membership of the EU. Gross expenditure in 1997 amounted to £18.469 million; the 1998 gross expenditure estimate is £16.610 million.

In addition to its regular activities, such as the monthly consumer price index, the regular business statistics programmes and the new quarterly national household survey, the CSO carries out a number of periodic censuses and surveys which have a cyclical impact on its expenditure. The reduction in the 1998 Estimate relates primarily to the reduced costs associated with the 1996 census of population.

While the census took place on 28 April 1996, work related to it spanned a three to four year period. It involved relatively low levels of expenditure in the year preceding the census date. The main costs, including the distribution and collection of the census forms and initial processing of data, took place in the census year. The bulk of the processing costs were incurred in 1997 with work and costs being scaled down during 1998. The total level of additional funding required for the census during that period was of the order of £17 million.

I am pleased to inform the committee that the Office operated within budget and achieved the target for timeliness of publications. All processing has been completed and it is expected that the remaining publications will be published by the end of 1998, thereby halving the 1991 census publications timelag. Preparatory work is about to begin on the 2001 census.

Other cyclical activities which will impact of the CSO's expenditure over the coming years include the national household budget survey and, subject to Government approval, the census of agriculture in June 2000. The national household budget survey will be carried out during the period from mid-1999 to mid-2000, while the bulk of the cost of that survey - estimated at around £2.6 million - will be spread over 1999, 2000 and 2001. The 1998 allocation includes £213,000 for planning and set-up costs. Costs associated with the census of agriculture will be spread over the period 1999 to 2001.

The number of staff provided for in the CSO's 1998 Vote is approximately 587. This figure includes staff temporarily assigned for the completion of the 1996 census of population.

The CSO launched a new logo and corporate image in 1997 in conjunction with a revised presentation for its releases. The objective here is to make the statistical releases more user friendly while still provided all the information which users require. Also, an Internet site was introduced in 1997 which has attracted very positive media comment and LoCall access was provided in 1998 to facilitate the public.

I am glad of this opportunity to thank all the staff of the Central Statistics Office.

Vice-Chairman

As a result of that census there has been a review of constituencies. Do you claim credit or blame?

I thank the Taoiseach for his presentation. He must be proud of the achievement of his Government in bringing about the British-Irish Agreement. The Taoiseach is aware of the importance of the forthcoming election in Northern Ireland and the onset of the marching season. Optimism has been the guiding force of the endeavours of all Governments and Taoisigh. The Taoiseach has maintained this optimism with important results. My party has always supported work done in the interest of peace, stability and the future progress of the whole of Ireland. I recognise the work done by the Taoiseach and I commend his recognition of the former holders of that office, of the Minister for Foreign of Affairs and of the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs.

Area partnerships are extremely important in including various aspects of society in urban and rural areas. In some areas the Leader programme and the area partnerships are working together. It is vital that bodies concerned with all areas of development work together, this is an important development.

The Taoiseach spoke about "Delivering better Government" and about the efforts by the public service to deal with the general public. There have been major difficulties in the delivery of payments to farmers under area aid programmes. Many of the problems have been solved but some remain. Will the Taoiseach see that in each district office at least one member of staff is appointed to deal with payments? At present farmers are expected to contact the area aid section in the Department. There should be an official in each office to deal with problems. I pay tribute to the Minister and the staff in the area aid section who have achieved results. However, there are problems outstanding which could be addressed by a person in each district office.

It is a happy coincidence that in the bicentenary of 1798 we have developed a better awareness of the two traditions on the island. The major issues of 1798 are alive in 1998 - getting people of different views and aspirations to come together. It is an important commemoration in the light of the present efforts by the Irish and British Governments. I wish the Minister of State, Deputy Séamus Brennan, well in that regard.

I join Deputy Belton in congratulating the Taoiseach on the British-Irish Agreement. It built on work carried out over many years and we will co-operate in every way to ensure it is carried forward. The Taoiseach indicated that legislation will be required for the implementation bodies; he might elaborate on that for the committee. It is important that violence is taken out of society and I agree with the Taoiseach that the Agreement is a victory for the political process. We look forward to the day all weapons are handed in and they no longer play a part in Irish politics. We are concerned about the families of those who are missing and I urge the Taoiseach to use his good offices to encourage the location of these people.

The relatively low turnout for the referenda is worrying, especially given the importance of the Agreement. It is worrying for the democratic political process that voters seem so apathetic. It appears to be a trend that has developed over the years, particularly with regard to referenda on Europe. It is a matter that should be addressed. Pupils are being educated about the political process; however there is great apathy. As a new Deputy I am aware of the difficulty of the job and the input needed but the public does not have that impression. We should work together to educate the public about the importance of the work we do and the importance of democracy. Democracy is a fragile flower and it must be nurtured.

The partnership agreements are very important. They have formed the nucleus of our current economic success and we must continue with them. I am worried about the events concerning the Garda pay dispute. It is time for the Taoiseach to intervene and to take action. The matter seems to be drifting slowly but surely towards a major conflict. I will not go into the history of the dispute and seek to apportion blame. The time has come for the Taoiseach to intervene. It is an unprecedented situation. The Garda has had an honourable and loyal record in the past. However, the dispute seems to be getting worse as time goes on. I urge the Taoiseach to intervene to seek agreement.

It is important to seek social inclusion but rural areas seem to be excluded. Installation aid for farmers was discussed in the Dáil yesterday. Many older farmers are worried that their children are leaving the land. The money ran out and since last August little has been done to encourage young farmers to go back to the land. Rural areas need rejuvenation.

With regard to urban renewal the local employment services play an important role. We are told there is a skills shortage, not alone in the hi-tech areas but in all sectors. There are many long-term unemployed who could be targeted and brought into the workforce. We must reach out to them rather than wait for them to come to us. The local employment service should be extended to every major town so that unemployed people can seek advice and help there.

We cannot start too early to develop inclusion and I welcome the Minister for Education and Science's initiatives in the pre school area. We must reach out to people and the home/school liaison scheme should be extended to every school. Social exclusion is not necessarily a geographic phenomenon. People can be socially excluded in every area of the country and in every school and we must adopt strategies to reach them. The home/school liaison scheme is ideal because it encourages parents as well as students.

The Taoiseach has spoken about drugs. I am concerned that a drug treatment programme is available in only one of our prisons, Mountjoy Jail. It is wrong to put people who have a drugs problem in jail yet offer them no treatment.

The FÁS community employment schemes have been quite successful and they do very important work in communities. As more and more people find employment it seems that communities in some areas are finding it harder and harder in some areas to get community employment workers. That is something we need to look at too.

As regards drugs, when we have a crackdown on drugs in the cities the pushers move into the countryside, the towns and villages. Many of these towns and villages have no facilities particularly the large housing estates which do not have any areas where youngsters can play. It is no wonder they get into trouble. In the short-term perhaps it would be useful if schools could be opened in the evenings and at weekends to provide some outlet for youngsters. It would not cost very much relatively speaking and it would solve a lot of problems.

Finally, I think we have an excellent public service and I must applaud those providing that service for their courtesy and efficiency. The public at large is delighted with their openness and transparency.

I too welcome the Taoiseach. He can be very proud of his achievements especially as regards the British Irish Agreement. The Agreement was a victory for the political process. In his statement he referred to the Department of Taoiseach's co-ordinating role in developing the international services centre. Is it intended to extend this excellent service at international level? I would also like to refer to the Garda dispute which seems to have escalated in the last few days. I believe the time is opportune for the Taoiseach to personally intervene. He has an excellent record as former Minister for Labour dealing with many similar situations. I hope he will become personally involved because otherwise in my estimation the dispute will escalate further.

First, I welcome the Taoiseach and congratulate him on the success of the peace Agreement on Good Friday. There is no doubt that the excellent handling of the negotiations by the Taoiseach was built on by the establishment of a rapport between the various political parties and indeed between the British Prime Minister and the Taoiseach, all of whom were obviously very impressed by his openness and willingness to consult, to compromise and cajole, all in the interest of bringing peace to this land. It provides an excellent opportunity in the political, religious and economic fronts for far greater co-operation and progress in the years ahead. This is obviously going to be a landmark in Irish history and we wish that process well.

I would like to ask two questions arising from it. Does the Taoiseach see a changing role for the Parade's Commission as a result of this Agreement? Can he indicate a timescale for the establishment of the ministerial North/South bodies? Would he be of the opinion, as published by David Trimble, that it could be well into next year before these bodies are established? What would be his views on this issue? I would also like to refer to the success of the financial services centre and ask if he sees any difficulties arising for Ireland due to pressure from other European countries relative to the opportunities that we afford various finance companies coming into Ireland. Does he feel that there will be further moves from the European Union to put in some retractions in this area relative to what we have on offer at this time?

As a substitute for Deputy Michael Ahern it affords me an opportunity to congratulate the Taoiseach on his - and many others - tremendous achievement in the last few months in bringing to a very successful conclusion the British-Irish Agreement.

I represent a Border constituency. I have been around long enough to know the serious impact which the Northern troubles have had on the local economy in places like Louth, Monaghan and Cavan and further afield. There has been virtual stagnation in the economic sense in the North as we come to understand it here. The Agreement opens up an opportunity for enormous potential development.

The Committee of the British and Irish Parliamentary Group spent two days last week travelling from Dublin to Belfast, on to Derry and back into Omagh and one could not but be struck by the very good working relationship that exists on the ground among people of different political persuasions. After 30 years of vicious trouble the animosities clearly are under the surface but it is very encouraging to see the people on the political extremes at local level prepared to work together and co-operate and plan for the future development of the North.

On the question of the difficulties with the area aid unit in the Department of Agriculture and Food, while there have been some difficulties it is fair to say that the new arrangement which has been put in place has largely come to terms with quite a serious problem. The initiative taken by the Minister for Agriculture and Food in that regard is welcome. While I am sure all the administrative difficulties have not been ironed out, a system has been put into place where two or three counties are grouped together with an officer in charge with special responsibility to identify and hopefully solve the individual problems.

To come back to the question of the North and the future development, the implementation bodies as set out in the Agreement are very important to the long-term success of the Agreement. Having been in the North for two days last week and speaking to differentpeople at different levels, on the administrative side and at political representative level, the question of the interim arrangements, for instance, infrastructural development of our road and rail links North and South, we can see there is a crying need to get a consultative structure into place so that decisions taken both North and South are co-ordinated. The problems in this area illustrate the futility of partition and how it has stunted the economic growth of the island as a whole. The interim arrangements before the implementation bodies are quite important. If decisions are to be taken or considered at this point it is important that people on both sides know what is being considered.

I would also like to refer to social exclusion. I am glad that the Government is taking an initiative in the provision of resources to tackle what is a huge social problem. We are all delighted to see such economic growth, but we should not lose sight of the fact that there are large sections of society that are falling behind. Looking at the picture long-term, resentment that builds up in those circumstances can set in train serious trouble down the road.

The great difficulties we have with drug abuse is not confined to cities or towns. Unfortunately it is also a rural phenomenon. Tackling the drug problem will be very important. There is no instant solution. A combination of measures must be put in place and the issue must be tackled head on. Social exclusion and poverty in both urban and rural areas will be in the medium and longer term a serious problem. While it is a question of providing resources to tackle these problems, we need a co-ordinated plan to see what solutions can be found.

I also wish to voice my concerns regarding the Garda dispute. Every democracy depends on its police force. This is a serious problem and it is important that it be resolved. The first step in any democracy is the police force. At present our police force is in a serious position and whatever steps are necessary must be taken by the Government to continue that democracy and the good relationship between the public and the Garda.

Perhaps the Taoiseach would address all the questions raised by Deputies and make a concluding statement.

I thank Deputies for their comments. Regarding the timescale for the North-South bodies, it is very important that there be progress in implementing these bodies. It is important to make progress on equality, justice and policing. Much work has already been done in this area and I want to move things on in a comprehensive and balanced way.

On the North-South bodies, the Assembly elections will take place in two weeks' time. Following that, the representatives of the Northern Ireland transition Administration and the Irish Administration will meet to try to agree the six North-South bodies and the six implementation bodies. There must be agreement in these areas by the end of October. There is also the letter which was discussed by David Trimble and myself during the final hours of the talks. Work will then be undertaken by both Governments and the Northern Ireland transition Administration to put in place legislation to get the bodies up and running. The bodies to be put in place must be decided on by September or October following which we can decide on operational matters. As of now the Northern Ireland Assembly will be in transition but that will not stop work taking place. Work in the area of policing must also take place before the end of the summer; next winter will be a crucial time. We will work hard to have the North-South bodies established.

Regarding the area aid programme, I take the points made by Deputy Kirk and Deputy Belton and will pass on their constructive comments to those dealing with the issue.

It is a matter of concern that only 50 to 60 per cent of the electorate vote during elections and referenda. Given that 92 per cent of people are available to vote, during recent elections most areas lost 30 per cent of that number. It is remarkable that when there is a controversial issue, such as rising taxes or the abolition of a service leading up to an election, the public turn out to vote in greater numbers but when people are doing fairly well they do not bother to vote. This has been the trend in the past 15 to 20 years regardless of which party was in Government. There is a particular problem with young people getting into the habit of not voting which must be addressed. Having spent 21 years in politics, I have seen Members lose their business and get older more quickly because of life in politics. However, this is not the perception held by the public. Our officials also work very hard as do the staff of the Houses of the Oireachtas. However, that information does not seem to reach the world at large. In three weeks, people believe we will "vanish", not to be seen again until the end of September. They think Deputies and Senators will not do any work until the Houses reconvene. After 21 years in politics I know my rural colleagues in particular will probably work harder than in the winter.

The challenge in the next few years will be to build on our economic success. There will be many changes - EMU, worldwide deregulation, new financial products, the redevelopment of the docklands and the evolving international business environment. The IFSC clearing house will try to manage these factors effectively to sustain the growth of the centre into the millennium.

I regularly attend functions in the centre when international figures visit. It is important we are given that recognition, something which does not happen in other countries where they are not given access to Ministers and Leaders. This helps with image building and has helped successive Governments and the IDA to develop financial services business over the years.

It is great to see so many young people who work abroad return to high profile jobs with international companies. Recently the Credito Italiano Bank told me it was keen on hiring Irish employees, even though it has a policy of not head-hunting in countries in which they locate. However, it intended to head-hunt Irish people abroad in Germany, Luxembourg and the UK to bring them back. The salaries were quite high so I do not think they will find it too hard to attract people. However it might cause them some problems as some companies might not like the rates they are paying.

There will always be some strain in partnership agreements. There was a recent debate that after 11 years partnership agreements had run their course. Such words should be excluded from our vocabulary. I spoke to Chancellor Klima of Austria last week. In 1951 there were fears in Austria that Russia would use discontent and industrial problems to take over. However, in 1955 they started on the road to social partnership and 43 years on that model is still successful. The Austrian model is more similar to ours than those in Nordic countries. I was involved in studying them in the mid-1980s. We should ignore the view that something good can run its course. There will be problems but we should be careful not to allow a good principle to be dismissed.

I thank Deputies for their conciliatory statements on the Garda dispute. The Government believes there is room for discussion and progress within the Government's public service pay policy. This is a key element in our economic success. Gardaí will argue they are not party to the negotiations and are not allowed to strike. This is correct. However, there are many other groups in a similar position - such as private sector workers who follow private sector agreements. If everyone wanted to negotiate their own agreement, it would be impossible to have a national agreement. Those with strength would benefit and the weak would be left out. I have been involved in many disputes for the past 29 years and I will be involved in industrial relations this summer. I have never seen a dispute resolved without people sitting down to talk. If we do not do that, we will not resolve this dispute either. It is sad that matters can escalate so much before we can agree to differ.

We have not reached the conclusion of negotiations because some people have walked out. The Garda want a 39 per cent increase, although privately they would probably acknowledge that this is not feasible and they would see the offer of 15 per cent, excluding productivity, as a meaningful negotiation. However, we will not be having those meaningful negotiations. We cannot pay 15 per cent to one group when practically everyone else has settled at 5 per cent. It would be impossible.

I want the Government to be involved in discussions. I play my role in advising and assisting colleagues through the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, who is capable of dealing with this matter. If we are offering 5.5 per cent and the gardaí are seeking 15 per cent, it is impossible to have a discussion. Industrial relations is a difficult business where people must be careful not to talk themselves into corners.

If the Government pay gardaí 15 per cent plus, every public sector group will submit claims of 10 per cent - plus the amount in the agreed agreement which was concluded 18 months ago. Then, when the Minister of Finance prepares his budget next year we would be raising tax rates by a couple of percentage points and cutting health and education expenditure. It would be impossible to agree a 15 per cent increase for the Garda. However it is possible to conduct negotiations within the public service pay policy. The Government will allow some latitude but it must be careful.

Everyone is asking for productivity. All my colleagues in the Civil Service and the public sector have taken on a great deal of reform and progress. In the 1980s I attended committees where people wondered how the Civil Service would move from typewriters to technology. We managed to establish the many committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas and inter-departmental working groups. There has also been progress at European level with colleagues working in the OECD and on EU committees. There was massive reform in Telecom, which went from a Civil Service to a semi-State company and it will move into the market economy next year. Staff were retrained to use the most advanced technology. This happened without losing one day in an industrial relations dispute. Everything is possible but it is essential that people sit down and talk. That applies to the Garda and I hope it happens.

Skills shortages must be addressed. Unemployment is falling and is at 9.3 per cent. Eighty four of those on the live register are in receipt of monetary gain; others are signing on for other reasons, such as pensionability and other allowances. Of that 84 per cent, more than 20,000 are working part-time and are entitled to their part-time status. This reduces the number of people concerned to approximately 150,000. However, many within that number could do with further skills and training. Most community employment courses and other courses help. Every survey and programme undertaken over the past 40 years shows that the more education one has, whether it be formal, vocational or training, the better the chance of getting a job. FÁS may not be the perfect organisation but it has many advantages. While it is easy to criticise it, people learn a lot from the services it provides. I support it.

I acknowledge the remarks on social exclusion in rural and urban areas. The depopulation of many rural centres is a huge problem and I have spoken about it on many occasions. Over-centralising in cities and denuding rural areas of their populations is disastrous for both city and country. I hope the designation of areas in cities around the country, to be announced shortly by the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Molloy, will help investment. The Government has been working hard with regard to the location of industry. Examples included the location by Coca-Cola in Ballina and Rank Xerox in Dundalk. In addition, building up infrastructures, such as third level institutions, roads and telecommunications will help.

I agree with Deputy Stanton's point on the home/school liaison scheme. In areas of disadvantage the disadvantage does not lie with the pupil; it usually lies elsewhere and usually through nobody's fault. The problem will not be resolved by working on the pupil alone. A broader remit is involved.

We are concerned with the levels of social exclusion. In this regard I refer to the initiatives undertaken by the Minister of State at the Department Health and Children, Deputy Fahey, with Barnardos and a number of other organisations. He has devised a structure, which was cleared by the Minster for Finance this week, where the State, through the justice and education systems, will identify the children who, in the future, will become involved in social exclusion.

In my constituency some social workers say they could identify problem children as they leave the maternity ward. I believe that is a slight exaggeration, but they can always be picked up very early in the school system. Like many new initiatives, the initiative by the Minister of State, Deputy Fahey, to try to identify them in the community at a young age and work on them has cost implications but is worth the expense. It is a good scheme, especially considering the organisations involved.

I supported the establishment of the Parades Commission. I met members of the commission recently when Senator Haughey invited them to the Oireachtas to meet Members. They will have an important role to play, although it has been affected by recent events. There are 3,000 marches involved. I spoke this morning to the US Secretary of State for Commerce who found it difficult to understand that there could be so many marches in a small part of a small island. Probably a dozen of the marches are contentious. If something goes wrong, all 3,000 could be contentious. We must be mindful of that. Everybody must work hard to try and de-escalate the potential for trouble during the marching season.

Marching into the past.

It is not easy but we must do our best. I hope that covers most of the points raised. If I missed any I will take them up later.

Based on the comprehensive programme outlined, there is much unsung work in the Taoiseach's Department. We appreciate this work, especially that undertaken by the many staff there. The fact that we have not dealt at length with it is no reflection of a lack of interest. Time constraints are a consideration. I thank the Taoiseach and Mr. Teahon for the competence of their submission made to the committee.

With regard to the Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach, Deputy Brennan, the most telling point on the work of the CSO was the halving of the time-lag in publications, which reflects on the abilities and efficiencies of the office. It is noted and appreciated.

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