Skip to main content
Normal View

SELECT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE debate -
Wednesday, 7 Jun 2000

Vol. 3 No. 5

Estimates for Public Services, 2000.

Vote 1 - President’s Establishment (Revised).

Vote 2 - Houses of the Oireachtas and the European Parliament (Revised).

Vote 4 - Ordnance Survey (Revised).

Vote 6 - Office of the Minister for Finance (Revised).

Vote 7 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised).

Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (Revised).

Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners (Revised).

Vote 11 - State Laboratory (Revised).

Vote 12 - Secret Service (Revised).

Vote 15 - Valuation Office (Revised).

Vote 16 - Civil Service Commission (Revised).

Vote 17 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised).

Vote 6 - Office of the Minister for Finance (Supplementary).

I welcome the Minister and his officials. The purpose of today's meeting is to consider Estimates falling within the remit of the Department of Finance, namely the following Revised Estimates, Vote 1 - President's Establishment, Vote 2 - Houses of the Oireachtas and the European Parliament, Vote 4 - Ordnance Survey, Vote 6 - Office of the Minister for Finance, Vote 7 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances, Vote 8 - Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General, Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners, Vote 11 - State Laboratory, Vote 12 - Secret Service, Vote 15 - Valuation Office, Vote 16 - Civil Service Commission and Vote 17 - Office of the Ombudsman and also a Supplementary Estimate for Vote 6 - Office of the Minister for Finance.

A proposed timetable has been circulated for today's meeting and allows for opening statements by the Minister and Opposition spokespersons and then discussions on Vote 2, Vote 6 - the Revised and Supplementary Estimates, Vote 9 and then the other Votes. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The purpose of my appearance before the committee is to introduce the 2000 Estimates for the Finance group of Votes, excluding Vote 10 - Office of Public Works and Vote 44 - Flood Relief, which I understand will be taken at a later date by my colleague, the Minister of State with responsibility for the Office of Public Works, Deputy Cullen. The Finance group of Votes comprises 12 votes amounting to almost £479 million. The Vote of the Office of the Revenue Commissioners is the largest Vote in the group, at almost £183 million. The next largest Vote is for superannuation and retired allowances which amounts to almost £114 million while the Vote for my Department is the third largest at over £106 million, which represents a substantial increase on last year. I will return to this aspect later.

Vote 45 - Year 2000 expenditure, which was a special once-off Vote last year for the expenditure arising from the Y2K computer problem, has been discontinued this year. My Department has already provided members of the committee with background briefing material on the Estimates before it for approval. I look forward to having a constructive discussion with the committee and I will be glad to provide any additional material members may require.

Before dealing with the Estimates for individual Votes, I propose, in line with the usual practice, to summarise recent economic developments and the overall state of the public finances. Ireland's economic performance in the 1990s has been outstanding. GNP is estimated to have grown in real terms by an average of 7.6% per annum from 1994-99. Unemployment has fallen from almost 17% in 1993 to less than 5% now while long-term unemployment has fallen from 10% of the labour force in 1988 to 2.1% in 1999. Between 1993 and 1999 the total number of people at work increased by almost 40%. At the same time, Government finances have improved considerably. The Exchequer borrowing requirement was eliminated in 1998 and surpluses were recorded in 1998 and 1999. Government debt levels have also improved, from 97% of GDP in 1993 to 52% of GDP in 1999.

The contribution of social partnership agreements to this period of economic expansion and fiscal consolidation cannot be understated. The partnership approach has provided a stable background which has encouraged business confidence and investment in the Irish economy. In particular, the period of the most recent programme, Partnership 2000, was one of sustained economic growth against a background of a favourable international economic climate. The aim of the new national agreement is to enable us to sustain the strong economic performance of recent years.

As its name implies, the Programme for Prosperity and Fairness seeks to further enhance living standards and reduce social exclusion on a basis which will prove sustainable over the longer term. The pay terms of the agreement have been well publicised and I will not dwell on them. However, there is a number of features of the public service pay agreement that are worth noting. There is a clear link between the pay agreement and the continued implementation of the public service modernisation programme. Payment of the final phase of the agreement is dependent on the verified progress of this programme, which includes ongoing implementation of statements of strategy and service delivery plans within each sector, the design and implementation of performance management systems and implementation of challenging service standards. The end objective is better service to the public.

Another central feature of the programme is the agreement to establish a public service benchmarking body to undertake a fundamental examination of the pay of public service employees vis-à-vis the private sector and to make recommendations. The benchmarking body will examine and compare job content, duties and responsibilities in both sectors. Its examination will be based on in-depth and comprehensive research and examination and analysis of that. There will be a single report covering all the groups involved, and the programme includes an explicit acceptance that cross-sectoral relativities which have bedevilled public service pay in the past are incompatible with the operation of benchmarking. In addition to the Estimate from my Department, I am seeking the committee’s approval for a token Supplementary Estimate to enable this body to be set up. Details of the proposed Supplementary Estimate have already been supplied to the committee.

In spite of the very impressive economic performance in recent years, we cannot afford to be complacent. Inflation has increased substantially recently. Much of the increase can be attributed to external factors such as higher oil prices and the weaker euro. In addition, domestic inflation has risen. This reflects price pressures, including wage pressures in the economy which are a cause for concern. These must be managed properly if we are to maintain our competitive position. If a dangerous wage-price spiral were to develop, it would represent a serious threat to our future economic prospects. As I have said before, this requires full adherence to the terms of the PPF. This is the best way to contain current pressures and to ensure the recent increase in inflation proves to be temporary.

Controlling expenditure within prudent limits is a crucial element of the Government's economic strategy. The recently agreed Programme for Prosperity and Fairness, together with the national development plan, set out the expenditure priorities, current and capital, of the Government into the medium term. The commitments in both documents will raise spending and they will inevitably impact on public expenditure levels. The programme will contribute to maintaining the competitiveness of the economy and will provide a strong base for further economic prosperity while improving the quality of life and living standards of all. In this context, I am strongly of the view that the benefits which will flow from the new programme will more than justify the additional spending. Anyone seeking to add to these commitments will get no support from me.

If we manage our current economic circumstances properly, I am confident we can continue to grow strongly in future. The prospects for the current year are very favourable, despite the inflationary problems to which I have referred. Economic growth in 2000 is expected to be 7% to 8% and 2000 is expected to be another good year for the public finances with the budget day target for the general Government balance likely to be achieved and probably exceeded. Over the longer term, my Department estimates that the economy has the potential to grow by about 5% per annum. This is slower than the recent past due to the labour constraints we now face.

While in recent years the economy seems to have developed a momentum which few would have dared forecast a decade ago, we are not complacent about the challenges which now confront us. If the increase in inflation which has emerged this year were to continue, it could pose serious problems, especially as regards wage demands which, in turn, would have a negative impact on our competitiveness. We are pleased with the economic transformation of this country which has come about in recent years. Some of the problems which have long afflicted us, such as unemployment, have been tackled. However, a few difficulties have emerged. We see ourselves at a stage where the challenge is to ensure we can maintain a level of growth consistent with maintaining full employment while guarding against increases in costs which would erode our competitiveness.

I will now deal with some of the principal Votes in the Finance group of Estimates starting with my Department. The Estimate for my Department amounts to £106.358 million, including the proposed Supplementary Estimate, a net increase of almost £67 million or 170% on the 1999 outturn. The principal reason for this substantial increase over 1999 is the inclusion in the Estimates for my Department of global provisions for North-South co-operation - subheads Q1 to Q3 - and other community initiatives - subhead R. These items alone have added £38 million to the Estimate for my Department in the year 2000. Other significant provisions in my Department's Estimate for the current year include £25 million for a new information society fund - subhead S - and £7 million for subhead T, which is designed to encourage the development of partnership approaches between management and staff in certain sectors of the public service. I will deal in more detail with these and certain other significant expenditures in my Department's Estimate.

Subhead B covers the costs of studies and other consultancy services of a non-adminstrative nature which arise in the course of the Department's work. I have made provision for the retention of advisers on the strategy to be adopted for the future of TSB Bank, ACC and ICC should this prove necessary in light of proposals from the boards. Subhead L, the provision for which is £2.508 million, holds the necessary finance to enable various technical assistance activities related to EU Structural Funds to be implemented pending recoupment from the EU. The increase in 2000 over the 1999 outturn is due mainly to the costs associated with public-private partnership units, the hiring of additional evaluators and additional information costs arising under the national development plan.

The fund for payments to promoters of certain charitable lotteries is held in subhead N. The Government decided in 1997 to set up a fund of £5 million per annum for a period of three years aimed at assisting those charitable lotteries which are competing directly with the national lottery. Following the review I decided to increase the fund to £6 million for a period of three years with effect from 2000 to be reviewed again before the end of 2002.

The costs of the Euro Changeover Board of Ireland are included in subhead O. In less than two years time, on 1 January 2002, euro notes and coins will come into circulation. Since I established the Euro Changeover Board of Ireland in May 1998, it has been very active in carrying out its two basic tasks, namely, to oversee the implementation of the changeover to the euro and provide public information. I will deal briefly with the work of the board under each of these two headings.

In the implementation area, the board has agreed Ireland's cash changeover plan which I launched in April. The plan sets out how the cash changeover will be implemented and outlines the plans of the organisation that will be most closely involved in implementing it. The plan envisages that changeover will be completed in just six weeks, with legal tender status being withdrawn from Irish notes and coins at midnight on Saturday, 9 February 2002. The Oireachtas has the final say on the selection of this date. The cash changeover plan is being circulated widely by both the board and the Forfás EMU business awareness campaign. A summary of the plan will also be distributed to every household in the State.

The board has also been active in the provision of public information. It has a wide range of public information materials - leaflets, posters, paper converters, question and answer booklets, videos, etc., and has been circulating them widely, as well as continuing with the Aertel, website and low call services. The board has also been working to further develop its networks with community and voluntary bodies which have a wide national reach, including those catering for people with special needs. The board will continue its public information activities until the changeover to the euro is complete. These activities will intensify to the introduction of the euro on 1 January 2002.

The sum provided for 2000 in subhead P - the change management fund - is £5 million. Now in its second year of operation, the fund is used to co-finance the cost of implementing initiatives arising from the SMI delivering better government programme of change in individual Departments and offices. Major initiatives being supported in 2000 include the implementation of performance management and a new financial generic model.

The provisions in subheads Q1 - peace programme, Q2 - North-South Interreg, Q3 - special EU programmes body and R - other community initiatives, are global provisions to meet the expenditure and EU co-funded programmes. These programmes are the new peace programme and the Community initiatives, INTERREG, EQUAL, URBAN and Leader, under the new round of Structural Funds for the years 2000 to 2006.

A global provision for the new programmes in respect of all the partners has been included in the Estimate for the Office of the Minister for Finance pending the agreement of the European Commission to proposals regarding the content and funding of these new programmes. In the normal course of events, it was expected that Community guidelines would be issued in the early part of this year relating to the principles, objectives and priority topics which will be eligible for funding under the new programmes. This would allow member states, including Ireland, to draft new programmes and submit them to the European Commission for approval for implementation in 2000. However, delays in the European Commission timetable have meant that the guidelines for the new programmes were only issued on 28 April 2000. This may result in some delay in the agreement of the new programmes but I propose to maintain the allocated level provided in the revised Estimates volume.

The provision in subhead Q3 will fund the estimated expenditure of £2 million in 2000 on the special EU programmes body. This funding will cover pay and non-pay costs, including capital costs of equipment and payroll costs of the 20 or so staff envisaged for the body which will administer the EU co-funded programmes formerly administered by the Civil Service.

I welcome the restoration of the North-South institutions by the British Government. It will facilitate the development of co-operation between North and South for the operation of the implementation bodies, including the special EU programme bodies. Further areas of co-operation are to be endorsed by the North-South Ministerial Council.

We have a marvellous opportunity to press forward now with a wide range of initiatives which will be of mutual benefit to all the people on this island. I look forward to working with my Northern counterpart, Mr. Mark Durkan, the Minister for Finance and Personnel. I had already had discussions with him on a number of issues of mutual interest prior to the suspension of the institutions and I shall be renewing these contacts at an early date.

The divided society fund is designed to support projects identified under the Government's action plan. Projects submitted by Departments for funding are assessed by an evaluation team chaired by my Department. The fund also bears the cost of additional temporary staff allocated to the Department and to the action plan projects. I will give a practical example of the projects supported by the fund when I speak on the Vote for the Office of the Revenue Commissioners.

There is £7 million provided for the promotion of partnership structures in the public service. Of this amount £2.8 million is for the local authority sector, £2.8 million for the health sector and £1.4 million for the education sector. The funding isprovided to encourage a continuation of the progress towards a partnership approach between management and staff which is at various stages of development in the three sectors. The net Estimate for the Office of the Revenue Commissioners is £182.9 million, which is an increase of almost £18 million on 1999, reflecting mainly a pay increase of some £13 million and an increase in computer spending of almost £2 million.

Revenue's integrated tax processing programme, or ITP for short, continues to be the linchpin for tax administration in a dynamic and increasingly electronic business environment. Whether dealing with the registration of various taxes, intervention in problem cases, sectoral or other analyses or the processing of payments or tax returns, these solutions share a consolidated view of taxpayer affairs rather than taking a single tax head approach. ITP has operated successfully since April 1999 for the collection of PAYE and PRSI. It is being extended to VAT from April 2000 and work is currently in progress to incorporate the other major taxes. The latest version of ITP allows for speedier processing of VAT returns, more automated repayment and a facility to offset credit arising from repayments and refunds against other outstanding tax liabilities more quickly. It also brings other customer service benefits to taxpayers and tax practitioners, including detailed statements of account that show customers their financial status with the Revenue. It is intended that these will in time replace the individual payment receipts.

Revenue's integrated solutions will underpin the planned Internet service for the processing, returns and payment as well as the provision of various outputs such as statements of account via the Internet. The ROS, or Revenue on-line service, is scheduled for introduction in September 2000. It will allow customers to make their tax returns and access their Revenue account information via the Internet. Next September, filings of monthly and bimonthly VAT and employer PAYE returns can be sent to Revenue by the Internet. From April 2001 income tax and corporation tax returns will be added to the system. The ROS will be one of the most significant customer service developments facing Revenue in recent years and will put Ireland at the forefront of tax administration in Europe. The ROS project, which is a keynote project in the Government's information society action plan, is being funded mainly by the information society subhead in my Department's Estimate.

Apart from investment in electronic transmission processing, my Department has recently approved significant increases in Revenue staffing resources to deal with its investigation, enforcement, taxpayer service and other work and these will be coming onstream as soon as possible. As I have said in the past, we have seen a major transformation over the past ten years in the way Revenue carries out its functions. This more business-like approach is affecting theamount of tax revenue now being collected and in the way in which Revenue Commissioners interact with a more client-oriented manner.

That concludes my summary of the issues arising from the finance Estimates. I thank the committee for its attention and I will endeavour to supply any further information Deputies may require.

I thank the Minister and his officials in particular for providing preliminary documentation to the committee. The documentation was very good and will certainly shorten our task as it deals with many questions one might ask.

I am glad the Minister focused on inflation, one of the problems of the economy. One would expect that in an economy that is growing rapidly there would be some inflationary pressures. We see it on the consumer price index, which is now running at about 5% annualised, but we also see it in the price of houses. Everyone knows the kind of pressure that creates. The analysis of inflation in Ireland can be inadequate, however, and a more serious analysis will have to be done in order that if the Minister decides to move from analysis to action the proper basis for that action will be there.

It is easy to explain why Irish inflation is at 4.9% and the underlying trends, but it is more difficult to explain why, on a comparative basis, Irish inflation is so much higher than the European average. I understand that in the euro zone inflation is about 1.7% while ours is at 4.9%. Saying this is due principally to higher oil prices and a weakening euro explains nothing, because all of Europe, with the exception of the UK, has experienced the higher oil prices and the weakening euro. While the analysis may explain why we are at 4.9%, it does not explain why we are doing so much worse, comparatively, than the rest of Europe.

We must go back to first principles. Our economy is not very competitive and there are areas where we are falling down in competitiveness. Cartels and arrangements still operate in some areas so that downward price pressure is not moving to the consumer and upward price pressure impacts on the consumer. Petrol at the pumps is a good example. Despite the best efforts of the Director of Consumer Affairs, I do not think there is real price competition in the sale of petrol in forecourts. There are parts of the country where the cost of petrol and diesel is significantly higher than in others. That is due principally to a lack of competition and to the lack of resources the Director of Consumer Affairs to address the matter.

Another example is the price of drink, which has been examined substantially in the media. We have a booming economy and there are many people with pay packets to spend, but it is difficult to explain why drink prices should have gone up so substantially in the last 12 months. That is certainly having an impact on the consumer price index. I appreciate there is also a tighter labour market, which tends to drive up the cost of wages and impact on inflation and the service sector. I want the Minister to give us the most recent figure for inflation in the services sector; I presume it is not far short of 7% at this stage. The rate for services would have gone much higher with a combination of a tight labour market and the minimum wage impacting on many of the services which are being provided.

Asset inflation - the price of land and housing, in particular - and the effect increasing house prices will have on pay, particularly on public service pay, is an issue that the Minister is beginning to discuss though he has not yet moved to address it. He should do so as the CPI inflation, house prices, the PPF pay agreement and the benchmarking which will come down the line, in addition to the difficulties in recruiting key personnel to the public service, are all linked. Those matters have to be addressed, as must the tightness of the labour market. The Minister must analyse where possible future workers can come from. Some can still come from the live register, as I do not believe we have reached full employment when the live register is just short of 5%. In certain areas of the United States the figure has been reduced to almost 3% and there is more scope for improvement.

One of the policy planks underpinning the budget was the hope that more married women will be attracted back into the labour force. I share this objective but I do not share or agree with the means the Minister announced in the budget.

There is general agreement that the Minister has not addressed the issue of child care. This issue has to be addressed because young couples who succeed in buying a house do not have the option to reduce the family income to a single earner and both must continue to earn for the foreseeable future. The shortage of child care places and crèches is a pressing issue for such people if they decide to have a family. This issue is causing enormous stress, particularly for young working women, who are spending an inordinate amount of time collecting and placing children and worrying about them. There is also a major crisis if anyone is ill, especially if a child is sick, and this problem has not been addressed as a housing issue.

Some issues arise from the growth in the economy which the Minister extols. These issues include housing, child care and traffic, which is a huge problem. The targets set in the national plan are already unachievable. There has been such delay in the implementation of the national plan in the first 12 months that the targets for infrastructural projects, particularly major roads projects, are already out of sight. Will the Minister comment on this situation which links back to labour force problems and the capacity of the economy to design and build roads? Does the Minister have a plan, for example, to bring in the Italians and the French or to implement projects on a scale which attracts continentals? The domestic construction industry cannot cope with the expenditure targets in the plan and their translation into infrastructural projects.

I mentioned benchmarking and from what I hear it is going to become the next round of leapfrogging. Whatever we call it, it is a deferral of special claims in the Civil Service and the public service and no one will be willing to be benchmarked down. There will be competition to be benchmarked upward when jobs are reclassified and fair dues to the genius who thought up this scheme and introduced the new terminology. It succeeded in taking the specials off the present round and back-loading the PPF rather than front-loading it. The Minister is stacking up difficulties for his successors. When this is added to the inflation problem, the tightness of the labour market, recruitment difficulties and house prices, particularly the unaffordability of housing for young public servants, these factors will run together when benchmarking becomes a serious issue. I hope the negotiating plan has been well thought out.

I would ask the Minister to comment on the level of the debt. Is there a plan to eliminate the debt as we run surpluses or is the debt the sinking or residual fund which will be left behind when everything else has been dealt with? Is there an active plan to eliminate the debt?

I would also ask the Minister or the Revenue officials to give an account of the up-to-date position on collecting outstanding DIRT clearly illustrated in the Public Accounts Committee report. Is there a programme to ensure that ordinary people understand the euro changeover? We all know the difficulties of dealing with foreign currencies when abroad but we can cope quite well. However, we would not know whether a price quoted for an ordinary item was good value. What will happen when the ordinary household budget becomes a euro budget? How will a housewife who knows the current price of bread, beans or half a dozen eggs know if she is getting value for money when she sees prices quoted in euros and she is coping with euro notes? This particularly relates to those people unfortunate enough never to travel abroad and who have never had to deal with a foreign currency. Will there be a public information programme on the changeover?

Will the Minister comment on the difficulties being experienced by the public service in recruiting workers? No additional money has been provided to the Civil Service Commission for additional recruitment or for a decentralisation programme. Does the Minister expect the decentralisation programme to take place without additional costs in his Vote or in the Vote for the Civil Service Commission? Will he attribute whatever costs arise to the Department or agency being decentralised?

Sitting suspended at 5.57 p.m. and resumed at 6.15 p.m.

Deputy Noonan referred to a number of issues, the first of which was inflation. We have answered parliamentary questions on this and it has been the subject of a wide ranging debate. The Deputy said further analysis should be done on the underlying causes of inflation, given that the European inflation rate is 1.7% or 1.8% while ours is 4.9%, to see what conditions affect our rate which do not apply in other member states. Among the reasons for the increase in inflation here are outside factors, namely, the weakening value of the euro - that has a greater effect on inflation here than in other euro zone countries because the amount of trade we carry on outside the euro zone results in a proportionately bigger hit on the Irish consumer price index - and oil prices also have had a marked effect - upwards of 1.5% - on inflation figures. Oil prices, the weakening value of the euro and the increase in the cost of tobacco account for roughly half the consumer price index. That is not to say there are not other underlying issues affecting inflation.

The Deputy referred to matters relating to competition. In the past couple of weeks I read a commentary about the effect competition in public utilities in the UK has in keeping down inflation. I cannot remember the source of the document I read but the analyst pointed out that competition in public utilities such as electricity has kept down the rate of inflation in the UK. Otherwise the RPI in the UK - the equivalent of the CPI here - would be considerably higher. Oil prices and the strength or otherwise of our currency is outside our control, and I agree with the Deputy that internal competition is very important. Deputy Noonan referred to such things as the price of petrol. I am lucky to be driven in a State car, but I am conscious of the difference in price between different areas even of my county, never mind different parts of the country. Competition is the answer and in areas where sufficient competition does not exist other measures will have to be taken.

The price of drink has had a considerable effect on the consumer price index. Neither I nor my predecessor has increased the tax on drink in recent budgets but the price of drink has increased and the percentage tax take has decreased. An increasing amount of the margin is taken by retailers in particular. It might be popular to say this, but perhaps it is time to examine the issue of greater competition in terms of the retail price of drink. Perhaps in future the Government will have to consider a greater liberalisation of the licensing market, which would certainly result in competition. I am not saying that is a current objective of Government policy, but it will have to be considered because publicans are taking advantage of the boom in the economy. As Deputy Noonan said, people are not as price conscious in terms of the cost of drinks as a result of the economy going well and people having more money, and advantage is being taken of this. This could be addressed through a further liberalisation of the licensing regime and perhaps the Government will have to take cognisance of this in future.

It is evident that competition is the answer to most of these issues. Competition in the telecommunications industry here in recent years has been very good. There have also been dramatic changes in the air travel sector in Ireland over the past ten or 12 years and everyone has benefited from those. "Ireland Inc." has benefited too. Competition is an issue to which we must give greater attention.

Deputy Noonan asked about the cost of services inflation. The CPI figures published last week indicated that, on a year-on-year basis, the figure has increased to approximately 6.5%. Deputy Noonan also asked about the tightness in the labour market and related that to questions on how more married women might be encouraged to return to the labour force. We debated the provisions of the most recent budget and our objectives were the same, although our approaches may have differed. I have received some favourable comments from bodies such as the OECD in regard to our approach to the labour market.

Deputy Noonan rightly linked the issue of child care to encouraging women to return to the labour force. We have examined this matter in recent years and some initiatives have been taken. Commitments on child care are included in the new partnership programme and we are seeing the development of a comprehensive child care policy. People have become aware of the complexities of this issue since a simplistic solution was advocated by a very strong lobby group prior to my first budget. The recent budget included some initiatives in regard to supply and we hope to make further progress in this regard.

On the matter of traffic and whether the targets set in the national development plan are too low in regard to infrastructural developments, roads, public transport etc. or whether the implementation of the programme is too slow, the programme is due to run until 2006 and it is not funding which is holding up many of these projects. Other issues are involved and each line Department is making an effort to identify problems which may be holding up the implementation of the programme.

I am becoming somewhat sceptical about the targets which are set in regard to everything from traffic flows to population projections and housing needs. Expert advice was sought from bodies such as the ESRI and other external consultants when the national development plan was being produced. We also received reports from regional authorities. Most people were surprised that we not only met their targets but went beyond them. I read recently that experts are now saying that the number of housing units required over the coming years is greater than that forecast by experts a couple of years ago. We are told that population figures will also be different to those forecast some years ago by the CSO and others. That is perhaps to be expected in an economy which is developing very rapidly.

The national development plan is sufficiently flexible to allow us to incorporate any changes which might come about as a result of new projections. For the most part, specific targets are outlined in the national development plan; it is not merely a question of the allocation sums of money which are set out in 1999 prices. If projects cost more than anticipated, the costs must be met as specific targets have been outlined.

Deputy Noonan asked how roads would be constructed. We must put bigger projects out to tender in order to attract the French, the Italians and other Europeans. They are not interested in tendering for projects worth £20 million, £30 million or £40 million but they would certainly be interested in tendering for projects worth £100 million or £200 million. On the proposed Waterford road, the NRA originally intended to award nine or ten individual contracts but the maximum number to be awarded now will be two. Those types of major contracts will attract foreigners to bid for the projects. We intend to make other contracts bigger in order to attract competition from abroad because Irish contractors, who are already under pressure, will just bid up the prices. We do not want that to happen in a tightening labour market with some inflationary pressures. The threat of increasing inflation would be increased in those circumstances.

Some interesting comments have been made about the benchmarking process. This process was not dreamt up to do away with relativity jumping but the social partners, particularly the Government and the trade union movement, agreed that the benchmarking process would specifically exclude cross-relativities. When the benchmarking body is set up before the end of the year, slightly sooner than expected, it will sit for a period of time and report before the agreement ends, in good time for the next programme. It has been decided that only one report will be produced rather than a series of reports which would create the type of cross-group relativity problems from which we are trying to move away. The report will address all of the issues at once in order to maintain a certain level of symmetry.

The public sector committee of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions was fully aware of what the process entailed when it signed up to the agreement. The process will be a very interesting one as it is designed to move away from the problems we have experienced in the past. Reports will not be produced on individual groups, rather all groups will be considered together.

On the national debt, annual surpluses automatically go towards the reduction of the debt. In spite of the low interest rate environment and the fact that the economy is performing well, I believe it is prudent to continue to reduce the debt because I was around when the national debt continued to sky rocket and most, if not all, taxation revenue went towards paying for that. Our best guess at present is that the national debt will stand at around 40% by the end of 2001 and 35% or less by the end of 2002.

What is that in pounds?

It is approximately £30 billion. I will obtain the exact figures for the Deputy at a later stage. At the end of 1997, the national debt stood at £30.689 billion, £29.541 billion at the end of 1995 and £31.383 billion at the end of last year.

So it is increasing again?

As a result of the restructuring of the national debt to make it more tradeable - the National Treasury Management Agency carried out a restructuring process in order that realistic recoupments could be made. That resulted in a temporary increase in the figure but does not increase the tradeable value of the debt. The national debt will decrease as a percentage of GDP and, at the same time, we will be putting a substantial amount of money into the pension reserve fund.

In regard to the banks' DIRT audit, the Revenue Commissioners inform me that they are still hopeful they will be able to conclude their work over the coming weeks. The audits are well advanced and arrangements have been made for the remaining audits to be carried out over the coming weeks. The Revenue Commissioners are satisfied that they will be able to meet the objectives they have laid down. When the audit programme is completed, they will enter into negotiations with the relevant banks and report back to the Committee of Public Accounts before 1 November.

The issue of the euro changeover and the intended plans to promote and advertise this to the ordinary citizen was raised. The Euro Changeover Board of Ireland has been very active in advertising and promoting this event on behalf of the citizens. Other activities planned for the remainder of this year will be the distribution to every household of an information leaflet setting out in summary form the main points of the cash change-over plans. In the development and distribution of this there will be a software package to assist retailers in determining their euro cash requirements for January 2002. There will be a national survey in June to gauge the level of public awareness about the euro and identify groups, messages and the media to be fused on in the campaign. There will be follow up activities based on the results of the survey and there will be a major advertising campaign in the autumn. The board is conscious of getting the message across to groups referred to by the Deputy working through citizens advice organisations and community groups.

On Civil Service recruitment, this matter was referred to recently in reply to a Parliamentary Question. The question was linked to whether more resources are needed by the Civil Service Commission to deal with decentralisation. Retaining staff in the Civil Service has become a problem as is the case in all businesses. I am willing to allot further resources to the Civil Service. As a result of decentralisation, there will be more local recruitment to the Civil Service. I never expected to be answering questions when the unemployment rate was down to 4.5% and there were complaints about not being able to get workers. This is a remarkable turnabout in my political lifetime. I never thought I would see this day. This is a consequence of our present success which is a far cry from the problems with which we had to deal in the past.

Does Deputy McDowell wish to make a contribution?

I apologise for my late arrival. I was attending another meeting from which I could not disentangle myself. I take it you have taken the general statements from the Minister and Deputy Noonan. Do you intend to deal with the individual Estimates?

The Deputy can make a statement if he wishes.

I will skip the general statement. I am happy to contribute to the various Estimates.

We will proceed as agreed at the outset. We will now deal with Vote 2 - Houses of the Oireachtas and European Parliament.

When will Buckley report?

Later this year, perhaps in the autumn.

Has the Minister given any further consideration to the issue of pensions for retired Members of the Oireachtas? I understand there is a group to represent retired Members and that the Minister has had some communication from them.

I met them some months ago and I intend meeting with them again. I will consider all these matters in the coming months. The Buckley report deals with salaries only. I will deal with the other matters.

In relation to pensions for secretarial assistants, some secretarial assistants are coming in late in their career and are not career Civil Servants. Can they buy back additional years or will there be a scheme to enhance their pension? Women are now coming in to the Houses of the Oireachtas from back-to-work schemes. These women would have been out of the labour force for a long time and their pension provisions seem to be inadequate.

I will look at the issue. I am not aware of any buy back scheme at present but I will consider the matter in light of what the Deputy said.

Perhaps the Minister will consider the case of secretaries in the constituencies which is a different career?

The big difficulty about making changes in remuneration, salaries, allowances or pension arrangements in the Civil Service is that it is immediately jumped on throughout the Civil Service. This must be taken into consideration but I will consider the matter.

I read in recent press reports that it is proposed the salaries of Members of the European Parliament will in future be paid directly out of the European Parliament and not out of the Minister's Vote. Has the Minister been involved with the European Parliament or is this debate at an early stage?

I have made the point on occasions that our secretarial assistants are very badly paid. As you are aware, this is due to the structure of the Civil Service and the grade to which they are linked. I assume there is no reason this cannot be considered in this benchmarking process because it is an obvious case in point where this type of process would be relevant in considering how they relate to people carrying out equivalent jobs with equivalent responsibilities in the private sector.

I will ensure the last point is brought to the attention of the benchmarking body when this is set up. I understand the relevant grade of secretarial assistant is linked to a grade within the Civil Service and I am sure this matter can be addressed.

As far as I am aware, there has been no communication with the European Parliament in relation to the relevant salaries of MEPs. I recall discussions in the past couple of years about how pension entitlements should be structured but these collapsed. I understood the European Parliament was streamlining provisions and there was something on my desk in this regard. I recall nothing relating to the result of these discussions or what the relevant salaries of MEPs should be. Members should note that MEPs will award themselves a reasonable salary of approximately £75,000 per annum.

Many of us have constituency secretaries who work quite hard in the constituency. This means that many of us are running a one man show in Leinster House. Deputies on all sides are under increasing pressure as a result of the amount of legislation which is in the pipeline, much of which is European driven. I recently went through the very complex Copyright Bill and we very often depended on outside lobbyists to advise us on various aspects of the Bill. Has the Minister given any thought to having some form of research assistants for Deputies, as is the case in other parliaments, given that most Deputies have opted for constituency secretarial assistants rather than having such assistants in this House, in order to make the working of parliament more efficient?

It has been put to me before and the Deputy will be aware that I introduced a new Deputies and Senators secretarial allowance in 1998. The case has been made to me by the Committee on Members' Interests which consists of Deputies from all parties. I will be reviewing these matters over the coming months.

Will the Minister summarise his briefing note on Subhead N - Appropriations-in-Aid?

On the Houses of the Oireachtas?

The Minister said recently that we should open up the way in which the leaders' allowance is spent to some form of accounting. Have there been any talks with Opposition leaders about that or is the idea on the back burner?

I have communicated with the party leaders and met their representatives recently to discuss this. I wrote to all the leaders and presented them with the background work we carried out on the matter. We will incorporate the views of the leaders' representatives in the review.

Is agreement near?

There has not been any disagreement. In the letter to the leaders I put forward ideas which I considered appropriate and met the representatives of the leaders to hear their views at firsthand. We are making progress with the matter.

Is it still the Minister's intention to do something about it?

The secretarial allowance is currently around £5,000. It would be better if that was doubled and paid directly by the Department to the secretary involved. There are some Deputies who treat this as an additional allowance. It may have been that way in the past but most Deputies need assistance now because the workload involved has increased. It would also be a more transparent system.

I will consider what the Deputy has said. He should also pass his views on to the relevant representative of his party.

It is a personal opinion but it would be a more effective and transparent way of doing it. If it is not being used as a secretarial assistance allowance, it should not be used at all.

Deputy Noonan asked about subhead N - Appropriations-in-Aid. The revised Estimate shows a figure of £840,000 coming in. The large increase in the sale of parliamentary publications should bring in £332,000. Contributions for televised material of the proceedings of Dáil and Seanad Éireann total £200,000. Income from services provided by the broadcasting unit provided £80,000 and surplus income on catering and bar services totalled £180,000. Members' contributions under the European Parliament Irish Representatives' Pension Scheme, 1979, added £38,000 and miscellaneous £10,000.

Those people who think we have free drink and free meals should note that there is an surplus of £190,000.

The price of drink in the Dáil bar is higher than in hostelries in the immediate vicinity.

Are we taking vote 4?

We will take Votes 1, 4, 7, 8, 11, 12, 15, 16 and 17 together. Votes 2, 6 and 9 are being taken separately. We will take Vote 6 now. It concerns the Office of the Minister for Finance.

Does the figure in subhead B, relating to consultancy, relate to money carried forward from 1999 to 2000 or is it part of the 2000 Estimate? What is the state of play in ACC and ICC? Is there a final out-turn for the cost of the consultancy studies which were employed during the aborted sale and restructuring of those banks last year?

I would like more detail about the operation of subhead P, the changed management fund. There is an additional provision of £2 million, giving a total of £5 million this year. What measures would be funded by that subhead? Will the Minister give an indication of how the money under subhead R, EU community initiatives, will be spent?

Subhead S, the information society, which is a new subhead, is £25 million. Will the Minister give us details of the purpose to which the money will be put?

When the Minister is dealing with subhead R, will he give detail of the urban initiatives and if it is his intention to extend those initiatives from Dublin and the north side of Cork to cities like Limerick?

What is the future of the Leader programme?

Subhead B, on consultancy, covers the costs of studies and other consultancy services of a non-administrative nature, for example, the State banks' sale, which arise in the course of the Department's work. Figures under this subhead can vary significantly from one year to the next due to demands arising as a result of Government decisions and policies and, as such, there is no identifiable trend to the expenditure.

The 2000 Estimate of £2 million is for the payment of expenses which accrued from 1999, amounting to £588,350, and to make provision for the retention of advisors in relation to the sale of TSB Bank and the restructuring of ACC and ICC, should this prove necessary in the light of proposals from the boards. The extent to which advice will be required is unclear.

A provision of £1 million was made in the 1999 Estimates in respect of this subhead. This provision was based on the expected costs of services in connection with the possible sale or restructuring of the State banking sector. The expenditure in 1999 amounted to £293,000 but a further £588,250 was accrued and paid in 2000 in respect of costs in relation to the proposed sale of ICC Bank and the proposed merger and flotation of ACC Bank and TSB Bank.

We have no more outstanding bills related to last year's work with these banks but I will check that for the committee.

When we considered the 1999 Estimate, there was a considerable provision for——

There was £1 million put into it. We only paid out £293,000 owed at the end of the year and we paid out another £588,250 this year.

So the out-turn is much less.

Yes. Of £1 million provided, we only paid £293,000.

What is the state of play with ACC and ICC?

After the withdrawal of ICC from the sale process and the failure of the merger and flotation of ACC and TSB, I made it clear to all concerned that the status quo could not continue and it was more important than ever that each organisation addressed the need for change to face an increasingly competitive market place. I am still of the view that the changing of the ownership structure is vitally important to the long-term interests of each bank and I asked them in January to review their positions and bring forward proposals for the future.

I received a copy of the strategic plan for the future development of ACC Bank which the board has endorsed. I will inform the board of ACC Bank, through the chairman, that it will have my full support in preparing to meet the challenges of an increasingly competitive marketplace. ICC intends to submit its proposals in relation to the future to me in June and I will consider this upon receipt. Taking any strategy forward will of course require, in all the banks, the close co-operation of management and staff and I am sure this will be forthcoming through the partnership process.

The trustees of TSB Bank, with my full support, announced on 28 March that they were inviting proposals in relation to the future of the bank. When this process is completed I expect to receive a formal request from the trustees to approve the new arrangements. An order under section 57 of the Trustee Savings Bank Act, 1989, which would have to be approved by each House of the Oireachtas, would be required to authorise any reorganisation of the TSB. The TSB has put an advertisement in the national newspapers inviting expressions of interest from people who might be interested in making some arrangements with them. I understand the bank is heavily involved in this process at present. Due to the unique legislation which set up the Trustee Savings Bank, I am not directly involved. The trustees initiate the process. However, I am required to approve the process and any proceeds would come to the Exchequer. The bank's structure is unique and was set up in 1989.

I am the direct shareholder in ACC and ICC. When the ACC/TSB proposed merger foundered, I made it clear to ACC that the status quo could not remain. ACC recently presented me with its strategic plan. I communicated with the bank in the past couple of weeks and I understand it is working to produce a new plan. A new programme will be discussed with unions and others concerned. There may be someone who is about to propose a strategic alliance with ACC or who might have some other suggestion. The strategic plan of ACC involves a complete refocusing, it is being endorsed by the board and the bank will move forward on that.

I hope to have further proposals from the board of ICC this month.

When the Minister refers to the ACC strategic plan is he talking about the sort of business in which it engages or how it will structure itself in the future?

The plan which the board has recently endorsed is very radical. It envisages many changes in the ACC. I do not want to discuss invididual proposals but the bank plans to reposition itself in the financial marketplace.

Is that being done with a view to a trade sale?

It is with a view to getting on with the work of ACC. The recently published ACC results show that income to cost ratio had gone up, is continuing to go up and is considerably out of line with that of other financial players. The bank must take dramatic steps to prepare itself for any stategic alliance or sale in the future. Even if no such alliance or sale takes place it will still be necessary for ACC to reposition itself. That is what the plan endeavours to do.

I have told the bank it should reposition itself with a view to changing the ownership structure but that may not come about for some time. In the interim it must get on with the business of refocusing, redirecting and setting new targets.

What about ICC?

In the coming month, I expect the ICC to submit its proposals to me.

I assume these proposals are not coming out of a vacuum. Is there ongoing contact between the Minister's officials and the boards of the banks?

Yes. The chairmen of the banks meet me on a fequent basis. Everyone was very disappointed by the outcome last year. Enormous effort had been made by staff, management, unions and everyone involved in preparing ICC for a new arrangement. Finally, only one bidder remained and that bid was withdrawn. That was a considerable disappointment, not just to me as Minister for Finance, but to all the people in ICC who had worked so hard to make the process a success.

Is the Minister talking about restructuring within the bank with a view to going down the same road again?

It will not necessarily be the same road. When neither process came to a successful conclusion the option of staying the same was not available. That is the only option which has been ruled out.

We may now discuss other subheads.

Subhead P deals with the change management fund. A central fund, the change management fund, was provided for in the Vote of the Department of Finance for 2000. This is the second year of the fund which it is envisaged will operate for a period of five years, subject to an annual evaluation. The sum for 2000 is £5 million. The implementation group of Secretaries General oversees the administration of the fund which is used to co-finance the cost of implementing, in individual Departments and Offices, initiatives arising from the SMI programme for delivering better Government and change in the Civil Service. The emphasis is on subventing current costs, including limited numbers of transient posts, but requests for other assistance are assessed on their merits on a case by case basis. The fund is also used to finance developments required to be pursued from the centre or cross-departmentally. Assistance to individual Departments and Offices is generally up to 50% of the cost. In the case of smaller Departments and Offices, a higher level of assistance may be given.

Major initiatives being supported in 2000 include the implementation of performance management and the new financial generic model. Due to these not being implemented to the extent originally foreseen, the 1999 demands on the fund were less than anticipated. Allocations in 1999 totalled £1,283,000, of which £216,000 was subsequently returned unspent. Payments of £1,723,000 were also made under subhead S in 1999 for information society initiatives, of which £30,000 was returned unspent.

Is this fund used to make contributions towards bonuses and rates of pay in the most generous sense? Is it that sort of fund?

It does not do that at all.

I do not understand the type of measures we are talking about.

The report, Delivering Better Government: programme of change for the Irish Civil Service, sets out a number of things which could be undertaken in various Departments to effect change, for example, the implementation of a performance management system. A new financial model is also to be put in place in various Departments. Departments which make changes in these regards would be given assistance from a central fund. It was felt in 1999 that, rather than anticipate what each Department was going to do, the Department of Finance would have a subhead which would allow it to allocate money to other Departments if it was satisfied they were making an effort to effect change.

Deputies have asked about the URBAN and Leader programmes. These come under subhead R which deals with Community initiatives. The URBAN initiatives were developed to address a range of problems associated with socio-economic exclusion within deprived sections of the inner cities and peripheral urban areas such as Ballymun, Finglas and Darndale in north Dublin, West Tallaght and Clondalkin in south-west Dublin and the north side of Cork city. The progammes include economic development, social integration and economic development measures based on local partnership proposals. Funding was available under six measures - employment and enterprise development, training and education, community infrastructure, children and youth, environment and community development. It is not clear if the initiatives will extend to areas such as Limerick but that matter will be further investigated.

The Leader ll initiative, managed by the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development, is designed to involve rural communities in their own development and to assist broadly based local groups in implementing development plans in their own areas. The programme is being implemented by 34 local action groups and three collective bodies which were selected for this purpose. The initiative was divided into the following sub-programmes - acquisition of skills, rural innovation, local action in groups, other collective bodies, transnational co-operation and technical assistance. The type of areas targeted includes rural tourism and IT training for remote rural areas.

In relation to new programmes, the EU guidelines for Leader have just been published and member states have six months to draft a new programme and submit it to the European Union.

The Minister mentioned, and I agree with him, the marvellous opportunity that exists to press ahead with a wide range of initiatives that will be of mutual benefit to all people on this island. As regards subheads 1 and 2, the money allocated to North-South co-operation through INTERREG and other programmes has been concentrated mainly on the Border regions. Those areas, particularly on the southern side of the Border, were in need of the money but if we want to forge a deeper understanding between all the people on this island the programmes must be extended to other counties. I mentioned this to the Taoiseach when discussing the Estimate for his Department.

Listowel and Downpatrick are working on a mutual railway project for which there is no grant aid or major funding. There is a symbiotic relationship between both projects as regards personnel, engineering, technical support and so on. It is an ideal example of two towns having forged links and worked together through the troubled times since 1985. Will a programme be introduced to cater for cases such as Listowel and Downpatrick? I am sure there are other towns on both sides of the Border that would capitalise on such a scheme.

Money is drawn under this subhead for the programmes and the Minister does not have a direct say in deciding what will be spent in those areas.

Has the Minister a broader view on it?

It is done by the relevant bodies. There is merit in what the Deputy says and the matter could be brought to the attention of the EU and the relevant bodies making the allocations, via the Taoiseach's Office.

On subhead E, the Institute of Public Administration, what is the reason for the major decrease in grant in aid this year?

Last year £1 million was provided in the Estimate for a building programme which is not required this year.

I was asked a question under subhead S on the information society. This is a new fund designed to support projects identified under the Government's action plan for the information society. The IT expenditure control unit is within CMOD which is responsible for administering the fund that is expected to operate in 2002 in line with the timescales indicated in the action plan.

If there are no further questions we will deal with Vote 9.

On subhead A9, the estimate of £725,000 for the maintenance of official motor vehicles and boats, are there many official vehicles and boats or is it just the one on the Shannon? Are there any proposals regarding boats on the lower Shannon? On Subhead A10 - law charges, fees and rewards - is there a briefing note on the level of awards made by Revenue to persons who give information? On subhead A12, Appropriations-in-aid and particularly the figure of over £18 million in respect of services provided by Revenue on pay related social insurance, will the Minister give us more information on that?

Subhead A7 relates to consultancy services. Most of the expenditure, that is £2.5 million, under this heading is for consultancy on integrated tax processing. ITP is the final phase of contact which enables Revenue to deal with taxpayers in a consolidated way across all tax heads.

Who are the consultants?

Arthur Andersen. As far as I am aware, they have been involved with this project for eight years.

Are they being retained in the year 2000?

Yes. They will bring it to fruition. Adding all the figures together shows that a substantial sum will have been expended in this area. I will get the information for the Deputy.

Subhead A9 provides for the supply and maintenance of official motor vehicles and boats. It applies mainly to the Revenue mobile service and the Customs national drugs team. As regards the distribution of the official fleet in 1999, the investigations branch had 11 cars, the collections unit had 63 vehicles, undercover had 47, the marine unit had seven and head office had 13 vans. We have five maritime units and six sniffer dog units.

It does not seem as if it has the capacity to invade Columbia.

The five maritime units have a staff of 20 and they are based in Dublin, Waterford, Cork, Limerick and Sligo. One is in Shannon.

There is an enormous amount of drugs coming into the country and it is safe to assume that most of it is brought in by sea. I imagine it is brought in where there are long inlets, such as the Shannon Estuary. Folklore suggests the activity is very serious but there is little monitoring of the waterways.

The maritime fleet is being upgraded but I agree with the Deputy.

Without hyping the issue, a full review of resources in this area might be appropriate.

I will ask Revenue to look at this aspect in conjunction with the Garda. From what I hear most drugs are brought in by sea.

They are not all drops from pleasure craft. Much of it is brought in on cargo boats and dropped inshore.

Has the Minister any figures on the success rate? How many convictions were there? How many confiscations were made?

I have a schedule for 1999 of drugs seized by the Customs National Drugs Team under various headings - heroin, cocaine, ecstasy, LSD, cannabis, amphetamines and so on. The total value was £24,152,570. It is certainly a matter which should be kept under review. I will ask the Revenue Commissioners to look at it in conjunction with the Garda Síochána in light of the information the Deputies have brought to my attention. There were two convictions in 1999, ten in 1998, 19 in 1997, 17 in 1996, 28 in 1995, 18 in 1994 and ten in 1993.

It seems that the interception level in not very high.

I am not an expert in this area.

How are the drugs seized disposed of? Are they incinerated?

They are handed over to the Garda Síochána by the Revenue Commissioners.

What happens then?

I do not have that information but I think they are incinerated.

We will proceed to subhead A.10.

This subhead provides for the engagement of external solicitors and sheriffs to enforce the collection of outstanding taxes. It also covers legal expenses incurred by or on behalf of the Office of the Revenue Solicitor and rewards related to the detection of evasion. The main reason for the increase is the transitional once-off cost incurred in introducing an extended system of solicitor enforcement. The new system which includes the engagement of six new firms of external solicitors will not only improve tax yield it will also ensure the costs of solicitor enforcement are borne by defaulting taxpayers rather than by the Exchequer.

The rewards scheme is operated under section 32 of the Inland Revenue Regulation Act, 1890. The maximum reward payable in the vast majority of cases is £5,000 but in exceptional cases involving, for example, large-scale tax evasion where the amount recovered exceeds £1 million rewards of up to £25,000 are payable. Under the legislation governing the rewards scheme Revenue is only permitted to pay rewards up to £50 without sanction from the Department. Revenue has always sought and obtained sanction to pay higher rewards. The current levels of award have all been duly sanctioned by the Department.

How many rewards were paid last year and who received them?

I have been informed that Revenue has delegated sanction from the Department to pay rewards. There were 22 rewards last year under the heading of "taxes" and two under the heading of "others", which could be customs.

It looks as if most of the money was paid for information——

The subhead covers law charges, fees and rewards. Solicitors' legal fees account for the vast bulk. Only a very small amount was paid out in rewards. I am sorry, I should have said that £22,000 was paid out in taxes rewards and £2,000 in other rewards. I do not know the numbers of rewards involved. For all I know there could have been a couple of hundred.

We will proceed to subhead 12, Appropriations-in-Aid.

The main receipt for 1999 under this subhead is for services provided by Revenue related to the pay-related social insurance scheme. It breaks down as follows: provisional outturn for receipts for services related to pay-related PRSI, £80.132 million; moneys received for special intents of officers, £409,000; fines, forfeitures, law costs recovered, £1.597 million; proceeds of customs sales, £77,000; bill of entry receipts, £49,000; receipts from sale of official cars, £86,000; inward processing compensatory interest, £83,000 and miscellaneous, £1.015 million.

Has it always been the practice of Revenue to charge for such services?

Notwithstanding the fact that the PRSI fund was in deficit until a few years ago?

What sort of services are we talking about?

The Select Committee went into private session at 7.14 p.m. and resumed in public session at7.18 p.m.

We are now in public session. Are there any other questions on Vote 9?

How stands the computerisation programme within the Revenue Commissioners to which I understand a substantial commitment was made either last year or the year before?

I referred to the improvements which have been made to the Revenue on-line service. The computerisation programme in Revenue is the most advanced in the State.

Were there many compensation claims under subhead A.11?

This subhead provides for compensation payments, whether on foot of a court order or otherwise, to individuals, staff and non-staff, who have a legitimate claim against the office due to accidents, etc.

What was the average payment?

I understand the highest reward was £75,000. A sum of £24,000 was paid to a member of the public who was involved in a crash with a vehicle of the Revenue Commissioners.

What was the overall number of claims?

Twenty. Last year there were less than 20.

If there are no other questions we will move on to all the other Votes which include 1, 4, 7, 8, 11, 12, 15, 16 and 17. We will deal with Vote 4 - Ordnance Survey.

To what degree are Ordnance Survey maps available on the Internet, and are there charges on them? There is a subhead (b), Appropriations-in-Aid, £3 million or so for the sale of maps. I wonder whether that will eventually disappear if maps are widely available on the Internet.

Would the Deputy repeat his question regarding the Internet because this technology is——

While the Minister's officials are settling in, let me say that it comes from a simple enough thing. Is the Minister familiar with these computer magazines which are on sale all over the place?

One was delivered to my house last week with a disk pasted to the front labelled "free offer". The free offer was a full set of Ordnance Survey maps for all of the United Kingdom free of charge, just as a give-away on the cover of a computer magazine. I wonder to what degree the Irish Ordnance Survey has maps available on the Internet and to what degree will there be a switch from supplying the maps on paper to supplying them on the Internet and allowing people to print them off themselves. Will that have an impact on Vote 4, subhead (b), Appropriations-in-Aid returns?

To answer the last part of the Deputy's question, the main source of income that arises from maps is royalties and fees for contract mapping provided by the Ordnance Survey Ireland. In 1999 income was boosted by a number of large one-off sales. The Estimates for 2000 have been reduced to take account of the non-recurring aids for some of the 1999 receipts.

On the more technical questions, my officials might advise me. We will go into private session again.

The Select Committee went into private session at 7.22 p.m. and resumed in public session at7.26 p.m.

We are now in public session.

Given the development of housing in all the major urban areas, it is critical for every local authority to have accurate information on an annual basis. Have all the local authorities an up-to-date annual contract with the Ordnance Survey to get this information? I have seen many local authorities using pathetically out-of-date maps in their planning offices around the country.

The Deputy should ask me about GNP.

Perhaps the official could provide us with a note on what he is talking about rather than delay the meeting because I found it very interesting.

When I visited the Ordnance Survey Office I was amazed at the development of their technology. One would have to be impressed. Although in the area of technology it does not take a lot to impress me, I was impressed by the products they were able to develop over the years and what they are able to do. Last year, a geodirectory, a national address database, was launched by An Post and the Minister for Public Enterprise at Dublin Castle. Politicians of the future will know more about it. It is quite extraordinary.

There is concern that through the introduction of the national development plan many of our heritage sites might be lost. Has the Ordnance Survey put any resources into identifying these sites? Are they being lost? What is the current state of play? What is the role of the Ordnance Survey in this? I note that there is money here for field vehicles. Would that be used for identifying some of these sites and to protect them in some way?

The Archaeology Branch was transferred to the Department of Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands. The Deputy must address his question to the Minister, Deputy de Valera.

Are these sites taken into account in making maps so that they can be identified by developers?

The features are shown, but that is the reason we have the Archaeology Branch, which has been transferred to the Department of Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands.

Is it not put on the maps?

They would be there as features, but the Ordnance Survey does not necessarily have a role in identifying them any more.

We will now move on to Vote 12 - Secret Service.

What exactly does the Secret Service do and why is it getting so much extra money this year?

I will read the briefing note. In the context of the Freedom of Information Act, 1997, questions may be raised about giving more information on this Vote. Any request in relation to the Secret Service would be considered under the provisions of the Freedom of Information Act in the same way as any other request for information. The Deputy might wish to know that the FOI request from the security correspondent of a national newspaper for access to the 1999 Estimate provided for the Secret Service was refused on 9 February 1999. The refusal was not appealed.

It is long standing practice to make generous provision in the Vote because of the undesirability of ever having to seek Dáil approval for a Supplementary Estimate. The provision in 1999, approximately £0.75 million, was the same as the previous year and the outturn was £285,000. The provision this year is £735,000.

The Minister might be interested to know that the Vote ran out on one occasion and one of his more illustrious predecessors wrote a personal cheque rather than seek a Supplementary Estimate.

A long time ago. There are procedures to follow if that happens.

Why is it under the Department of Finance rather than the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform?

The reason is the Minister for Finance is expected to exercise an independent role in relation to requests from Ministers. The request is made to the Minister for Finance via the other Departments, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform or the Minister for Defence or any other Department.

I cannot claim to understand that.

Any other questions?

I have a question on Vote 17 for the Office of the Ombudsman, which also includes the Information Commissioner and the Public Offices Commission. This committee has discussed the staffing levels in both the Office of the Ombudsman and the Information Commissioner's office on a few occasions. I take it that there is an increase of four in the provision for the Information Commissioner's office. Is there no increase for the Office of the Ombudsman? Is there an outstanding request from that office for additional staff? I understood there was.

I recall approving a few months ago an increase of staff for both the Information Commissioner's office and the Office of the Ombudsman, unless my memory is playing tricks on me. Additional staff were sanctioned for the office of the Information Commissioner earlier this year. The number of investigators was increased from four to seven under the sanction. The standard recruitment process for these extra staff is under way at present. I do not think there is an outstanding request for staff from the Office of the Ombudsman. It has not been brought to my attention.

I understood that the Ombudsman had sought additional staff in the not too distant past. Perhaps that was satisfied in last year's Estimate.

Every Department is constantly requesting staff from my Department. If we sanctioned all requests, we could double the size of the Civil Service overnight.

Does the Minister have proposals to extend the remit of the Ombudsman and does he intend introducing legislation to do so?

There is a proposed Bill to extend the remit of the Ombudsman. I cannot give information on when it is likely to be up and running.

Is it being drafted?

No. It is on the schedule of proposed legislation that is produced at the start of every session. It is not on the top section but it is in one of them and I can let the Deputy know what stage it is at.

It is obviously not on the Minister's priority list.

It is like a football club that is well down in the division.

My official tells me that it can be expected before the end of the year.

We got a similar answer last year.

I raised the Vote for the Civil Service Commission last year. The delays in the Civil Service Commission in filling vacancies are causing a problem, particularly at local authority level. We talk about implementing the national development plan but the process of filling vacancies for engineers and planners at local authority level is so long and cumbersome that by the time the post is offered, the applicant might already have an offer from another employer and the process has to be started again. This is also relevant to the Prisons Service, although there is an independent Prisons Service board, and to the health services. The case has been well proven at this stage.

Some of the recruitment could be handled more efficiently through the line Departments rather than centralising the process, once the overall cost is kept in check. The system at present is so cumbersome it is causing many of our difficulties.

I remember Deputy Fleming raising this point last year. I will forward him a briefing note on the current situation.

With regard to Vote 11 on the State Laboratory, a serious issue is arising due to the shortage of forensic scientists. Virtually all criminal trials rely on forensic evidence in addition to eye witnesses. Juries are unwilling to convict on eye witness evidence alone and there have been some Supreme Court rulings which suggest that eye witnesses may, with the best intentions, be unreliable.

I am aware of a recent case where the forensic evidence was not returned from the State Laboratory by the day of trial. According to the Garda, the excuse was that the forensic scientist involved had to prioritise her work. There were so many murders that she never got beyond those cases. Cases of lesser crimes, despite being quite serious, were either being delayed or proceeding without forensic evidence. It is a serious issue which needs to be addressed.

The Deputy's comments relate to the forensic science laboratory rather than the State Laboratory and that is under the remit of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

It is not in the Minister's Vote?

No. The State Laboratory provides a comprehensive analytical and advisory service to Departments. The Deputy is referring to the forensic laboratory.

Under the President's Establishment, subhead B.1 relates to the centenarian's bounty. That increased substantially last year. Are there any plans to maintain that increase or to do something similar next year?

I will consider such matters in the run up to the budget. The increase in the centenarian's bounty was due to it being the year 2000. The bounty was increased to £2,000 to do something special for the year 2000. The President also presents a medal or coin on her behalf. It is not the amount that is the important.

How many centenarians got the money?

To mid-year there were 109.

Hopefully, we will all live to that age.

Are there any further questions? No. Does the Minister wish to make a closing statement?

I thank the members for their endurance and interesting questions.

I thank the Minister and his officials for their presence this afternoon and the members of the committee for the manner in which they conducted the Estimates discussion.

Top
Share